JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Autopsy | Forensic Files

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Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1 888 Freedom John B Ramsey she was strangled
with a cord Little Miss Colorado 6-year-old murder victim John Ben Ramsey unknown
Intruder her [Music] [Applause] brother victory John B Ramsey oh my God they still have not interviewed the
parents I Didn't Do It John Ram didn't do it and we didn't have a clue of anybody who
did my life has been H from that day forward and I went nothing SE more than to find out who was responsible for
this [Music] after John Ramsey and Fleet white found John benet's body in The Wine Cellar
located in the basement John in a hurry ran up the stairs taking the body with him placing the body on the floor of the
kitchen detective Linda art then moves the body to the living room then art orders Fleet white to stand by the door
to the basement and guard the door Fleet white goes to the door but for some reason runs downstairs to retrieve the
duct tape from the basement floor this is all taking place between 1:04 p.m. and 1:23 p.m. at approximately 1:30 p.m.
Priscilla white calls her home I'm guessing here Captain but this is very likely to Halt Burke leaving the White's
house and returning to the Ramsay around the same time officers Ron Walker and Larry Mason returned to the scene
saw John B's body and then searched the home afterward securing the house shortly after the body was found John
Andrew Ramsey Melinda Ramsey and Stuart long arrive at the Ramsey house in Boulder Colorado between 1:30 and 2:
p.m. a detective overhears John on the phone John called a pilot his Pilot to telling him to ready the plane this to
me is very strange behavior from somebody who has just recovered the body of their six-year-old daughter right
around 2: p.m. John Ramsay signs a consent form to search the Ramsay home and just touching on that that plane
call to the pilot for a little bit here the the detectives had to stop John Ramsey from leaving the the Ramsey
family from leaving telling the ramsy hey you shouldn't go anywhere we have a murder investigation the crime scene
your home and you know they're not going to tell them this up front and center here but obviously they're suspects
right and I I think the way the Rams were actually thinking was Atlanta Georgia was what they considered home so
we have this bad thing that happen we want to get back home we don't want to be here we don't want to be in this
house um but that does like you said hinder the investigation I don't think that
hinders the investigation of the house or the crime scene but it hinders the investigation and being able to talk
with them um adequately yeah and then regarding this consent to search form for the the search warrant if you will
or because this makes it seem like John's being very Cooperative yeah I and I technically don't believe this to be
an actual search warrant you know one that you bring before judge judge signs off on it I believe this is just a
consent to search form signed by John Ramsey the the owner of the home this is just one of those other
little details within this case that I absolutely cannot stand is that regardless you know
depending on Whose magnifying glass you look at these details from you get a different story M on what's going on
here where the ram Defenders would tell you look this is proof positive that they were extremely Cooperative don't
bother Nick with worrying about that they wanted to hop on a plane and fly far away because this shows how
Cooperative they are they were signing a consent to search their home form they have nothing to hide they're an open
book but then the ones that want to come after the Rams point out they're not really an open book because John later
says that he thought he was signing off on on on saying that yes you can perform an
autopsy on the body right so it's it's just frustrating that's one of the most frustrating pieces of this case well I
think the one of the frustrating things is when people say only one thing's the truth right can we agree on that it it
can't be both yeah I well I don't know I think what they say there's three sides
to the truth there's Yours Mine and the actual truth not always um but I think sometimes there's just the truth but I
think with the whole wanting to go back home he didn't go back home like they wanted to the cops said yeah don't do
that that's a bad idea but it's so stupid with this case it's like a non-point like yeah he's like let's go
back home hey don't do that okay we're not going back home but they didn't they didn't stay in the house house they
nobody wanted to be in that house oh and I I cannot blame them I and I don't even
know if John ever went back in that house after that day cuz they ended up staying with their friends but but let's
also be clear that around this time they pulled Jon into a room by himself and they talked to him for a while and at
some point they talked to Burke by himself for a while so they do talk to Burke this would be the um he never
comes back to the Ramsay's house right so they talk to Burke one onone my understanding is it was straight up
oneon-one it was Burke was still at the friend's house right and he's over there
you know playing with the other kids and they're distracting him that I that's a
troubling aspect to this case too because you can look at just that whole situation in two different ways one are
you protecting your child Burke by removing him from the situation that could scar him for Life something
extremely traumatizing or are you purposely putting him away so that he doesn't disclose some information right but you
you eventually let him talk to the cops oneon-one John's even even in the room with him
right so if you're so worried about what he's going to say or if if you knew that
he just smashed his six-year-old sister's head with a flashlight you're going to let him sit
in a room with a detective by himself or with friends and others that he could share that information with willly Dilly
I mean he's 9 years old right you're not there when when they ship him off and also that's not just the ramy's thought
process of all let get Burke out of here this was a this was the cops and the ramsy going he needs to be removed from
this site the cops suggested that he should be removed from the the Ramsey home no I think it was it was like a a
collective effort it was a collective idea I don't think it was just as simple as the Ramsay saying hey he needs to get
out of here one thing I will point out here that I think is very troubling on behalf of the Boulder Police and on the
Ramsay is if you're working under the scenario that a child has been kidnapped from your home and a ransom has been
called for in a letter right wouldn't you want to protect your your remaining child wouldn't you feel
that that there should be some kind of security for this other child rather than sending him off to some friend's
house right seems it seems it it's another situation where we can point out that the Boulder Police clearly did not
know how to respond to a kidnapping situation that where Ransom is being called for yeah but at the end of the
day I think people that are pointing at the ramsy constantly you don't know what it would
be like to lose a six-year-old daughter or how you'd react or what you'd be thinking about I think it'd be hard to
think about anything and you go oh well they shipped him away so they're not protecting their son well they might not
even be able to to think properly so I think some of their actions right that and that's what I mean that's when the
boulder police should have stepped in and said no this is this this home right now is secured because we have law
enforcement presence here he's safe here right I I agree and they should have done a better job of trying to when they
got to the scene initially they should have cleared the whole house and and then they would have found her and then
the crime scene would have been contaminated and they also would had enough officers where you're not having
her father pick her up and contaminate evidence and and then have the mother cry over her and contaminate evidence
have the detective pick up the victim right and contaminate evidence I mean it's that's pretty well not only did
Linda aren't move the body after JN moved the body and this is important to the autopsy but so she allowed someone to
take a blanket as you know a sign of uh to protect their child or I don't know remorse or whatever whatever however
many different ways you want to look at it she allowed someone to take a blanket
and place it over the body once it was removed to the move to the living room yeah and then to further that John B's
feet were still sticking out from the blanket from the bottom of the blanket and L I believe Linda aren't told
someone to cover up the feet as well so they took a Colorado Avalanche you know the hockey team they either took a
hockey sweater or or a sweatshirt and placed it over the feet of the body so what that means to the lay person
basically any hairs fibers anything like that that could have been on that blanket could have been on that
sweatshirt or sweater now is on could be on her body Andor clothing yeah so it's just it's
just truly a mess now shortly after John signs this consent to search form the Ramsay leave their home they go
to stay with the feres remember we discussed the feres they showed up early that morning to the Ramsey home yeah
this the Ramsay's going to the feres includes John's older children John Andrew Ramsay and Melinda Ramsey and her
boyfriend as well now sometime that afternoon John Ramsey calls and requests a visit from Michael bham who is
reported to be John Ramsay's close friend and a corporate attorney it is during this
visit so Michael bham he agrees to this visit and it's during this visit that same afternoon that John hires Michael
bham to represent him and Mr bham advises the ramsy at that time that they need to get additional attorneys right
but you're I think you're missing one step he actually got a call their lawyer got a call he wasn't hired at the time
but that's why he suggested that John gets lawyer because he got a call from a contact that he had inside the police
department that said they're just trying to make this about you guys and that's it and and that's when he suggested you
need to get a lawyer on December 26th 1996 at the home of John and paty Ramsey this is from the report these are the
words of pathologist John E Meyer MD he says the body of this 6-year-old female was first seen by me after I was called
to an address identified as 7551 15th Street in Boulder Colorado I arrived at the scene approximately 8:00 p.m. and
entered the house where the decedent's body was located at approximately 8:20 p.m. I initially viewed the body in the
living room of the house the decedent was lying on her back on the floor covered by a blanket and a Colorado
Avalanche sweatshirt on removing these two items from the top of the body the deant was found to be lying on her back
with her arms extended up over her head the head was turned to the right a brief
examination of the body disclosed a ligature around the neck and a ligature around the right wrist also noted was a
small area of abrasion or contusion below the right ear on the lateral aspect of the right cheek cheek a
prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck after examining the body I left the Residence at
approximately 8:30 p.m. at 10:45 p.m. on December 26th the body of 6-year-old John Ben Ramsey is removed from the
family's home before we move on to December 27th Captain I want to make sure that I point out here in regards to
contamination of the body that it has been noted by several people this is not one of these items that's in dispute or
Up For Debate this is across the board John Ramsey Patricia Ramsey Linda art and Fleet white all touched the body
before it was examined right and John Ramsey and Patricia Ramsey touched the body several times I'm not pointing that
out to indicate guilt or to indicate that the ramies were trying to cover something up I think it would be
100% natural reaction to want to go to your child to touch your child I'm just pointing it out for the the purpose of
evidentiary value yeah I mean it compromises the scene we're not saying that it's to cover up anything it
compromises the scene and um and then we also know where we're starting from so the following is from Steve Thomas's
book this is inside the ramsy murder investigation Steve Thomas was one of the leading detectives on the case this
is from page 41 and it says it was the morning of December 27th the little body was first
removed from a locked yellow outer covering then from an inner black bag the paper sacks were removed from the
hands and feet and Meyer remember he is the pathologist began describing his findings the victim weighed 45 lb was 3
11 in tall and had green eyes and some green Garland was caught in her blonde hair a single Loop of white cord was
around her right wrist tied on top of the sleeve but so loosely the doctor easily slid it free there were
15/2 in between that Loop and a loop on the other end which once apparently had bound the left wrist a white cord of the
same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal Furrow had been dug into the
skin a gold chain and cross were Tangled in that leature which was tied behind the neck
to a broken stick blonde hair was snared in the knot and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord
which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garat the broken paintbrush used as the garat handle had Korea
printed on it when Meyer clipped the nails of each finger no blood or tissue was found that would indicate a struggle
he used the same clippers for all the fingers although doing so created an issue of
cross-contamination for optimal DNA purposes separate and sterile Clippers should have been used for each finger
furthermore we later learned that the coroner's office sometimes used the same Clippers on different autopsy subjects
oh that's that's amazing great job there Captain we could go through the entire autopsy uh I want to kind of go through
and cherry-pick some items but to do the entire autopsy would be an exhausting process it's over 3,000 words long so I
point that out one to not be lazy about it but to point out that it was and appears to be a thorough document
constructed by pathologist Meyer cherry picking some items here at the top of the report Captain we have
name Ramsey J I just want to say real quickly if if you're not willing to take the time to have different Clippers on
each finger I would assume there's some kind of protocol let's just if we're going to
start with that conversation then and yes it's 3,000 words I don't know if that means it's thorough I just meant
the document I said it was a thorough document not a thorough examination the thing here with these
autopsies that gets difficult is you're solely relying usually on one individual
to handle this process properly as you're pointing out here follow protocol and protocol varies depending on what
county you're in what city you're in what state you're in it's I hate to say say this but it truly is a bit of a
willy-nilly process it's one of those situations where you question the science of it because it's human error
and it's and it can be laziness it can be a number of different things yeah and it can be opinion-based correct and the
other thing too is you know I had a discussion once with with some people and they said well there were multiple
hairs found on the body from different sources and that means that there were multiple killers and I said well not
necessarily we've done enough of these cases to realize that that random hairs and fibers can end up on people for a
number of different reasons that are innocent in nature right but to further that along in the way that the way that
I connect this to this conversation is I've reviewed at least two cases where later we learn that one of the hairs
found on the body came from the body bag that the body was placed into and it wasn't cleaned properly or it was a
county that was quite poor and they're just reusing body bags all the time the report States at the top the name of the
decedent is Ramsey John Benet date of birth August 6 1990 age 6 uh sex female autopsy Number 96
a155 death date and time December 26 1996 1323 so 1:23 p.m. this is interesting they have to well I guess
they don't have to but per protocol are supposed to put a time of death on this form whether they come up with an actual
time of death or not and in this situation 1:23 p.m. is put on this document because that's considered to
be the agreed upon time that the body was in in the living room mhm we know she didn't die at 1:23 p.m. and in fact
there was no real time of death that was truly established in this case Steve Thomas says that the detectives were
told to work with a window of 1:00 a.m. to 7 a.m. and then he kind of backs into that
a little bit and shrinks that window based off of some information we know to be true the 911 call comes in 4 6:00
a.m. so you can go ahead and take away 6: to 7: now you're left with 1:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m. right I like that and I do
like you're going to hear me question Steve Thomas's actions and and theories and
and how he came up with some stuff as we move forward but I want to point out that personally I find his investigation
to be interesting in in a sense that there are pieces of it that seem incredibly thorough where even on the
timeline of the day when the body's found he has multiple times for when people arrive to the house inside his
report and inside his notes some people point out what a terrible job this detective has multiple times for the
same people arriving to the house it this can't be an accurate document right Steve Thomas never claims for that to be
an accurate document what he's saying is I've talked to everybody somebody tells
me person a arrives at this time and then somebody else tells me person a arrived at that time until I can prove
what time that person arrived I'm leaving both in my report and in my notes both are correct so I I find that
portion to be well done on on Mr Thomas's behalf yeah because like you said I mean he's not just going okay
well I talk to this person I talk to this person and I believe this person more right he's just saying he's leaving
it on there until he can prove other otherwise and where I find it a little tricky though is when we have the time
of death when he's discussing what he believes or what he claims the detectives believe to be the time of
death I find that I his theory and the detectives Theory kind of Wiggle that theory gets wiggled into their time of
death in the window that they create you know they're making assumptions that I think
are very dangerous to make in this investigation one being that they say okay well we're told to work
with this window of 1 a.m. to 7 a.m. we know that it was before 6:00 a.m. because of the 911 call we've Shrunk the
window a little bit they they want to shrink this window and I I we need that window to be much smaller than that we
need that window to be shrunken yes so we can really get an idea of what happened and who needs to be accounted
for during that time the thing that I believe that they do that's d dangerous to the investigation is they make the
assumption that the The Ransom letter was penned after the death and that the letter writing process would take a
certain amount of time and thus they can shrink the window even more have you wrote the letter out yourself I have not
but if I sit down and try to write it with my left hand instead of my right it's going to take me even longer right
but I mean do you have like just a guess of how long do you think it would take you to copy
well you say copy but there's a chance that the author was was writing it from you know scratch right yeah that they're
coming up with it and here's the other thing how many times did they how many practice letters could there be you know
there are multiple Pages ripped out from that pad of paper MH uh I believe it's three that they were able to determine
that there were three pieces of paper missing between where they believe the the page one of the letter came from and
and the rough draft let's call it with the Mrs and M or um Mr and Mrs ey at the top of the page right but what I think
people should do is pull out a couple sheets of paper and copy it start by copying it that gives you some kind of
time frame it's that's under 5 minutes so yes it's it's a lot different to create one from scratch but if the
perpetrator brought that note with them under five minutes to copy it yeah over eight hours if you have to sit down and
watch Ransom dirty hay and speed M when you're doing condu it's amazing that they didn't find those tapes at the
scene of the crime right a uh you're right a portable remember those old TV VCR combos yeah black and white yeah
that the per brought it with them all right sorry we're getting getting off track here uh final
diagnosis talkx studies blood ethanol n detected blood drug screen no drugs detected final diagnosis cause of death
of this 6-year-old female is xixia by strangulation associated with cranio cerebral
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many years you keep the lights on and you keep beer in the fridge well in our mouths as well picking up where we left
off here Captain to put it quite frankly just to muddy the waters even more in this case we have basically two causes
of death declared by Mr Meyers MD a term that we will probably be discussing quite a bit I want to describe this to
everyone just so we're all on the same page as we move forward the term will be garat the general consensus being here
that a garat can be made out of many different materials including ropes cable ties fishing lines nylon guitar
strings telephone cord or piano wire anything of that type of nature a stick may be used to tighten the garat this is
a Spanish word which actually refers to the stick itself in Spanish the term may
also refer to a rope and stick used to constrict a limb this basically is a popular murder weapon and for sadist
it's a torture device it's unfortunately a term that we've used many times on the show continuing with
our exam here Captain the deant is clothed in a long sleeve wh- knit colorless shirt the chest area contains
an embroidered Silver Star with silver sequin tied Loosely around the right wrist overlying the sleeve of the shirt
is a white cord at the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 in in length
with a Frayed End the other tail of the knot measures 15.5 in in length and ends
in a double loop knot not this end of the cord is also frayed there are no defects noted in the shirt but the upper
right sleeve contains a dried brown stain 2.5x 1.5 in believed to be from the nose or mouth there are long white
underwear with an elastic waistband containing a red and blue stripe the long underwear are urine stained over
the crotch area and legs beneath the long underwear are white panties with printed rose buds and the word Wednesday
on the elastic waistband the underwear is urine stained and the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of
staining Measuring Up to.5 in maximum Dimension to touch on this what we've just reviewed here
Captain the in regards to the urine this is a big big thing in this case because
what we would learn very early in the investigation from the Ramsay's housekeeper is that John Benet was known
to wet the bed quite frequently as well her statement to detectives was that often when she would come in in the
morning that py would have already stripped the bed placing the sheets in the washer and then when the housekeeper
would get there you know she'd transfer them to the dryer sheets are dried and then apply them back to the bed and this
was at times a daily routine I believe her statement was that this was a daily routine leading up to about 30 or 40
days before the murder and it had just kind of gone away it was almost like John Benet had grown
up from that that she was no longer wetting the bed I might be mistaken but I think at one point she was not weding
the bed and then she started wetting the bed again that's exactly right that's the same thing that I heard and I
believe that was the statement from the housekeeper the detectives also found pull-ups you know like the they're
they're not quite diapers they're for older children yeah I wear them I I wear them to concerts so I don't have to take
a break to go to the bathroom I don't want to miss anything now I wear them when I'm in the garage there were
pull-ups found in the home and there was some question if John Benet was known to
wear these I'm guessing that she would I don't see why pull-ups would remain in the house when you have children that
are 9 and six years old just look at the pictures of their house man it's a mess
that's true it's a hot mess yes one of the the reason why we point this out here is that one of the big theories
that has lasted all these years is that John B wet the bed that night and in you
know anger anger and an impulsive reaction py freaks out and throws the kid across the room or hits her over the
head with something and it's this all came about because she wet the bed once again right and paty had just been
through it all and this was the final straw she lost it didn't mean to hurt or kill her child but that's what she did
and then I like potty training abuse it's it's actually pretty common like the even people that wouldn't you
wouldn't think would hit their kids or be violent towards their kids they can be if the kid is not being potty trained
correctly or or is not able to do such right so we have to address this because we do have in the autopsy report from
the external examination that there was urine on the clothing I do want to point this out
though we should be clear here that this could have come about at any time it doesn't necessarily mean that
she 100% wet the bed that night no this could have t she could have she could have wet herself during an attack that's
extremely common she could have wet herself after you know in death yeah so to point to that and say hey she had to
have wet the bed and this is the only this is the explanation we've come up with due to that fact
fact again I think that's a dangerous assumption to make in this investigation to further this out a little more and
you know I hate to I hate to throw the warning out there that it's going to get a little gross because it
seems only sensical because we are discussing an autopsy but or the fact that our show is called True Crime
Garage in in the uh when discussing her weding the bed there's also reports that she has
defecated in the bed before multiple times there's also statements that Burke would defecate in John benet's
bed I don't know either one of those to be true it seems to me like the one that
we can really hang our hat on here that seems to be the most true is the bed wedding situation this is brought up by
multiple people mhm and the the other bit I I can't say for certain that that I believe either one of those now what
would be pointed out during this investigation and these aren't my words but bed weding defecating in the bed
things of that nature it was pointed out that sometimes that is what you would see when somebody is being molested not
only molested but us when they're being molested by somebody within the home or within the family the reason for that is
that in those situations sometimes the victim will do that consciously or unconsciously
subconsciously whatever it is M because they want to appear less desirable or gross to the
perpetrator it's almost a way of protecting themselves yeah correct that I point that out because that is
one of the theories as well in this case I also want to State 100% that there's never been any evidence before
or after the murder of John Benet Ramy that John or py had that they were ever involved in
any paraphilia at all yeah cuz let's be clear on something they searched their house I think actually called it there
was one magazine that called this murder Kitty porn murder and they searched the
house for porno and they did not find any right so and then there's also a rumor that they had all these um books
uh or one of the books on in their study was opened up to incest or something like that I believe it was that a
dictionary yeah that the word incest was marked in a dictionary I question that one too
Captain because that's one of those ones that you hear in more salacious reports on this case MH I
really question I feel like that would be a a more well-known fact if it was a fact but we what we do know is a fact is
they didn't find any pornography in the house right and to top that off these both parents have other children there's
you know there's never been any any complaints by any of the other children that that py or was ever
involved in anything like that and to further that out even more we have Melinda on record multiple times saying
her father just wouldn't be capable of such an act and that he be it murder or molestation while we're on the subject
though of the bed wedding situation one thing that I did find particularly strange in this case and this is well
reported too that John Benet Ramsay had 27 doctor visits in the course of the 3 years leading up to her death on an
average that puts her at like N9 a year mhm that's a crazy amount the doctor when asked about this
states that that was for the the pediatrician states that these were for all normal reasons she did have some
sinus issues I guess that would be caused for reoccurring visits I also wonder too we know the situation of The
Accidental time when Burke hit her in the face with the the golf club in the face in the face MH that in itself
though I want to point out just just something like that requires multiple doctor visits I was looking for like a a
a straight up list oh yeah you'd have if there was stitches you have Stitch then
you have to remove the stitches well we know that yeah we know that she went to a
plastic surgeon so just like you pointed out there that that starts with an initial doctor visit referral to
somebody consultation the the surgery a followup right there you have four out of the 27 well you have a stay-at-home
mom so I I think yeah maybe four people that are everybody's working and there's
not a lot of money little thing you're just going to let go but when you have the time to take your daughter in for
every little thing and you have the money to cover it I I don't think that's unreasonable external evidence of injury
located just below the right ear at the right angle of the mandible 1.5 in below
the right external auditorial Canal is a small rust colored abrasion in the lateral aspect of the left lower eyelid
is ptical hemorrhage I'm going to skip some portions of this autopsy report Captain because there are
multiple pages that go through all of these patial hemorrhaging and all the hemorrhaging that takes place we know
that we've already discussed that strangulation was involved and anybody that's listened to this show or other
True Crime shows knows that hemorrhaging occurs during those types of situations
but to specifically describe some of the report here this part I believe to be important wrapped around the neck with a
double knot in the mid line of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied
around the right wrist this leg ature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed a single black ink Mark
is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut okay so that P portion
of the last two sentences of his report are describing the pathologist actions mhm he's saying I removed it by cutting
it and then I placed markers indicating where the cuts took place the knot is left intact extending from the knot on
the neck are two tails of the knot one measuring 4 in in length and having a Frayed End and the other measuring 17 in
in length with the N tied in multiple loops around 8 tan brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 in in length this
wooden stick is irregularly broken at both ends and there are several colors of paint and varnish on the surface
right printed in Gold letters on one end of the wooden stick is the word Korea the tail end of the other word
extends from beneath the loops of the cord tied around the stick and is not able to be interpreted blonde hair is
entwined in the knot and in the cord wrapped around the wooden stick it appears to be made of white synthetic
material also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the
form of a cross examination of the right extremities is unremarkable on the middle finger of the right hand is a
yellow metal band around the right wrist is a yellow metal identification bracelet with the name John Benet on on
one side and the date 12296 on the other side this was a gift from her aunt I believe from paty's
sister and I mean just there's these little sad heartbreaking points in this case all along the way that just remind
you of the pure innocence of this little girl and you know she here she is wearing a gift that she just very recent
recently received him was probably very excited to wear this piece of jewelry that she received from her aunt I mean
it just it it breaks your heart I also think it's not clear in this case on how uh brutal this attack was and that this
gr the way it was set up it almost looked like you'd put a human on a leash and then you'd be pushing their head
down as you pulled the the grot back it's truly horrifying I don't think that there's any
documentary out there that has I don't know what the right word is here Captain but I want to say bothered to describe
how horrific it would have been these injuries are they almost make it sound like it's
Sleeping Beauty lying in a windowless room in the basement and that's not the situation at
all there there's a if anybody that's seen the pictures read the descriptions and we're going
through them here you hear the the the medical speak jargon and it just sounds like textbook
[ __ ] but really in Lay terms it was it's a horrific attack on a on a tiny little
person yeah there's actually two marks on the neck one at the lower part of the neck and then at some point that became
free and they go in deeper and there's actually a couple pictures that you can see how deep the the Rope
goes around her throat it almost disappears yeah and the line that it left at the midline of the throat mhm
after the fact yeah I mean it's just it looks like somebody took a maroon marker
a maroon Sharpie and just drew a line across somebody's neck that's how deep it looked like it was the cord was going
into the neck there was a red ink line drawing in the form of a heart that was found
located on the palm of John benet's left hand the fingernails of both hands are of sufficient length for clipping and we
already discussed that they use the same Clippers to clip all of the fingernails
now you said that there was no nothing found underneath the nails but I thought there was some DNA and
possibly some blood that was found underneath the right hand's finger fingernails so that showing that she
struggled with somebody at some point you're correct there are multiple reports on this detail of the
investigation the bit that I gave you was Steve Thomas's report one of the leading
detectives so I don't know what is the real true answer what I find interesting is that
he follows up his report by saying we later learned that the all the fingernails were clipped with the using
the same Clippers right again I think that points to his thoroughness of saying whether this is right or wrong
this is what happened yeah whether it's right or wrong this is what happened and
then to to add to the weight of that question everything because this also happened right what's the best way to
describe the the cuz there was some I don't want to use the word damage to the vaginal area I don't think that
damage is the right word well would you say indication of I've actually seen this disputed
multiple ways one one claims that there there's evidence that there was at least
some kind of touching to the vagina area did manipulation yeah at the time of death and then they also use the word
chronic now when you hear the word chronic you think oh well this is we going on for a long time no this was
this term would have made sense to meaning that there was something that happened to her um days in advance uh
one of the medical examiners thought that this would happen basically most likely a
individual putting their finger inside of her vagina on the 22nd or the 23rd now other medical examiners have
stated that some of this bruising could be due to hygiene the bed weding the irritation of the irritation yeah of
having urine stained clothing on the skin right up against the skin for well sometimes they get per of time you get
rashes and so then a mother would use um they would get some kind of medication to put on on the rash and you could
then you know that's where you could get some digital what they call it well I think to put it pretty as clean as we
can would be to say that the reports out there State everything from chronic molestation to something as little
as uh irritated skin that could come from urin stained clothes or right but let's be clear about wiping right but
let's be clear about this chronic molestation this is not there was no signs of there's there's no scar tissues
to prove that she was molested for weeks and months and years not true we're talking about the time of her death and
probably once a couple days before that's all they prove it also seems like there was wood fragments found in her
but vagina as well I didn't personally see that in Dr Meyers report yeah I think I saw that from Lou Smith he does
reference um fibers okay as well so again with this with this area of the body it's it's
really it's up for to debate really depending on who you talk to this represents any number of things what I
feel that I've seen and heard the most so I'm going to throw this in the batch of General
consensus would be that just as you pointed out that this is something that occurred either at the time of death or
shortly before and it could be anything from as terrible as digital manipulation or
something uh more vigorous wiping or hygiene no no I I'm rolling all that out what most of the metal cool Samar
state is that the the choking which people so halfhazard want to say is covering up for for something right that
the the choking of John B was is after the fact and therefore it's covering up an accident no the choking was not an
accident it was on purpose it was not meant to kill her it was meant for sexual gratification so if you have a they
believe that there was molestation the time of her death and I I think that's that needs to be fact to
me because it's like you don't have one or the other and a lot of people think because there wasn't penetration with
like a penis that the individual would be um more likely to be a younger or a crazed
or disorganized offender you typically see that right in those types of of murder cases so the report says a 1 cm
red purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterior sorry I'm going to struggle
with some of these words here Captain posterior lateral area of the 1X 1 cm High orice the Hyman itself is
represented by a rim of tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions the area of abrasion is
present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the Hyman and distal right lateral vaginal
wall we say all that to point out that it the that's basically saying there's a small amount of damage or injury to that
area yeah bruising yeah one thing that is completely shocking in this whole case shocking to me Captain m is that it
appears that Linda art the pathologist who arrived on the 26 to examine the body at the Ramsay's
home and then several other people as well that nobody realized that this poor girl had been
struck over the head yeah it's it's almost like it took further detection that it wasn't you know you
have the shocking scene of the garat of the cord wrapped around this little girl's throat maybe it's the shock
factor and you you you don't see what what might have been obvious but all the reports I've read and stop me if you've
read any that that are different but it sounds as if this head wound which this this was a massive injury and we'll get
into the details of it but it sounds like sight seen unnoticed right yeah well there's no blood not like massive
pulls of blood right and she had long blonde hair I believe it was was she two two pigtails or ponytails whatever they
call that well yeah I mean I if you've ever seen one of your buddies like hit their head especially when they have
blonde hair it turns bloody real real quick right but what I'm getting at is I don't know how much blood there was
there wasn't right and I don't know I would like to have a pathologist or a doctor sit down with me and tell me the
reasons why there's no blood obviously one she's already dead or near death at the time yeah that's what most medical
examiners when they look at this say look there's a lack of blood so we they believe and all all the credible ones
the most credible ones I've seen with this case State she was choked it was sexually it's for sexual
gratification the perpetrator was choking her either trying to touch her now that would be random that wouldn't
be as much most likely they were touching themselves while they're strangling her uh she there's defensive
wounds around her neck meaning she was trying to stop the choking at at some point some people believe it would have
cut off the blood circulation to her brain um and there's some signs of that they they believe through the autopsy
and so I I can't remember what they call it but it's basically where you're dead um and it's it it happens almost
instantaneously mhm yeah and so they they also believe that you know normally if somebody's trying to strangle
somebody in order to kill them there's a lot of marks that are left like inside the neck muscles their
strains uh different bones and stuff possibly could be broken within the neck and none of that is seen here that's why
they believe that these these Bruises with inside the vagina are from molestation
because the evidence of the choking doesn't like I said it doesn't seem like the purpose of the
choking was to kill her it was to control her so where it gets a little convoluted
is a lot of medical examiners think that during this sexual gratification that the perpetrator then uh either freaked
out or or got into it too much and hit her over the head with something now other people believe
that the perpetrator knew that they that she was dead because they ALS there's also a temporal lobe bruising in the
brain and that's common when somebody is when somebody shakes somebody after death right and so somebody chokes her
doesn't mean to kill her shakes her she's dead and then I think I believe that's when the the Blow To The Head
happened because at that point the heart has stopped it wouldn't be pumping blood
to the to the brain that would be one of the reasons why we wouldn't have pulls of blood everywhere that is one reason
the other reason could be too is do we how much broken skin do we actually have with this strike right and the the
interesting thing here too is the the use of the Gat and the manner that it was used very likely could suggest that
it's it's not only a torture device but it's also a sexual assault device MH where you're using it because that's
what this this sicko is into and sometimes we see this a lot in a lot of cases that we've covered especially with
cereals that they will often choke someone almost to the point of death and then allow them to receive air and then
choke them again right and they believe that was happening with her because there there's signs of that from the
autopsy but let let's be clear that shows like cbs's documentary on this case it doesn't make any sense you can't
start off with the idea of that there was a a Blow To The Head you cannot start that off they believe
this Blow To The Head would have made her brain dead should be unconscious minimum and then because of the brain
swell and the brain bleed should' be brain dead and what happens if you're unconscious or your brain
dead you do not put up a fight if somebody is choking you right so let's be clear there's no need to restrain the
arms right from the perpetrator's perspective right and I know a lot of people are
going to sit there and say well but but all that stuff is to cover up some kind of accident let's be clear that CBS and
everybody involved in that show were irresponsible for putting out that information it's just factually not
correct and if you want to I don't advise that you do this cuz you might have nightmares about this but go look
up go look at pictures of John B Ramsay's neck and see all those half moons of that six-year-old girl trying
to stop somebody from strangling her so this idea that there was Burke accidentally hit her on the head or that
or that during uh changing of uh pajamas or changing of the sheets or whatever that in John's bathroom
right that that that she slipped and hit her head or got tossed AC cross the room
by her mother or struck over the head with a flashlight right to the credit I guess of the of the people that believe
Burke may have killed his little sister via an accident or whatever the skull fracture to me does look like it could
have came by way of golf club it I mean it there's I if anybody looks at that picture and says N I wouldn't think a
golf club could make that well yeah strike I would I well then you're you you need to go get glasses my friend
right because it straight up in the dimensions so let's describe this because not everybody's going to be
fully aware of of this the fracture the skull fracture is huge it measures 8 in in length and the way that this works
out is she would have been struck on the top of her head but it's more the right side the right side of her head
yeah yeah and the the fracture runs from where the where the impact hit on the skull and it runs all the way forward
yeah and then what you have at the top where the impact took place you actually have a full section that broke off it it
runs 8 in in length total but from where the point of impact what we have here is
picture a skull where you have a crack C that runs down the majority of the right
side of the skull uhhuh at the top of that crack where it stops you have a basically a
rectangle shaped piece of the skull that fully broke off on all four sides and that piece itself is quite small I
believe it's 1 and2 in by a half inch but that's that's the rectangle there and then from there you have uh you
would have your remaining so it' be 6 and2 in of a fracture that runs from that broken piece there yeah
and and and cops were looking for this this possibility as well maybe not so much a golf club but it did look into
that Burke had a bat and then they did some tests and then realized they don't believe that would happen through a bat
not saying that the cops were saying that Burke hit her in the head but they were looking for objects yeah yeah uh
then you have a bunch of tests done on the flashlight again I think that's it's reasonable to you see you have a bigger
opening bigger fracture than it goes to um thinner fracture so maybe something like a a big flashlight it would
definitely have like the weight to it to to be able to do to be able to create that that type of fracture but there's
also a picture a crime scene picture sure that there's this it almost looks like um one of the like a fireplace tool
that would also be like if I were to walk around someone's home after seeing the the skull when the skin is pulled
back and see the fracture itself uhhuh if I were to walk around anyone's home and like pick up instruments that I
think could have could have made that impact and left that Mark right on her left that fracture in that manner I
don't think I would go for flashlight I'm not saying it's impossible I wouldn't go for flashlight wouldn't go
for B anything that's kind of rounded doesn't seem to make sense to me I see something where you you need like you
need something where you're almost seeing the like that broken piece of the skull is the outline of whatever hit her
and that to me would be like a yeah like a fire place tool or a golf club anything like that right but if you look
through the crme well it's not possibly it's 100% it has to be you know the the the markings of what
hit her yeah if object hit her um it had to have hit her look at the I mean well
let me finish my thought sorry so first if you look at the crime scene photos there there it looks like some kind of
fireplace tool I don't know what you call those but it's right under poker aren't those the poker things that you
like move the wood around you know how like some people have like the the poers and then they have the brushes and then
they have the shovels and and they have all different kinds of things okay right
it looks like there's one and it's underneath the open window where the suitcase is and you'd
have to go through there's tons of crime scene photos but you have to go through
and you can see it laying on the ground now I can't it's blurry I can't tell you
exactly what it is but I go well we know where the we know where the paintbrush handle came from it came from that room
right that that was used in the garage uh we know that at some point she was in that
suitcase because we have all these uh fibers from her clothes that are in that suitcase so they were going to use well
you you can say you know that I won't I won't be on board with that one I'm not not convinced that she was in the
suitcase okay but what we do have is a suitcase with a bunch of fibers from the clothes that she was wearing that night
so well again I don't know that they were the clothes that she was wearing that night the well that's the report I
that that I saw again but that and I'm not I don't want to sound like I'm challenging you here I'm I'm not
disagreeing with you I'm just saying the information I've reviewed doesn't state
that same stuff right but right with that suitcase where that suitcase is correct underneath that open window
there's a crime scene photo that has some kind of object and I just want because police have stated we haven't
found the object of what hit her on the head right and here's where this is what I
question okay it all has to work on some order like Lou Smith MH keep calling him
Smith it's like his analysis of the the Intruder Theory doesn't work it starts with a stun gun well what does the stun
gun do it incapacitates the person renders them conscious at some point right so very likely too for a small
person we're not talking about a full grown adult we're talking about a very small child and how long are they
incapacitated for th this is what I would want to know I I could yeah I don't think any of us can say because
there's differing you know there's varying degrees of even these stun guns but just as analysis it doesn't make any
sense because if I go okay I'm gonna go up to J's bedroom and I'm going to hit her with this stun gun and that's what's
going to allow me to take her downstairs okay at what point does she eat pineapple so well we should be clear
here for those that don't know there was um a substance found in John Benet upon
the the autopsy findings that suggests that she ate pineapple or a substance that resembles pineapple shortly before
her her death right it was undigested right and then we have crime scene photo photos that have a bowl of pineapple
with milk which I've never heard of if my mother fed me pineapple it was just pineapple in a bowl I don't that's weird
I've heard of yogurt and cottage cheese but never milk I think it's milk again uh don't don't quote me on
that but so but my thought is okay well Lou Smith Lou Smith Smith Intruder Theory have her get
downstairs she wakes up she's supposed to be met by Santa closet at some point she goes downstairs she sits at the
table she makes herself some pineapple maybe she doesn't make herself some pineapple maybe Burke made himself some
pineapple but he went to bed he didn't finish it so she sits there and decides I'll eat a piece of this that's when the
Intruder would have to uh come in contact with her right or I guess she could have woke
up in the middle of the night went downstairs ate some pineapple went back upstairs it's possible uh then you use
the stun gun but again the stun gun doesn't make any sense because once you start trying to control her with the
gro you need defensive wounds I I do want to point out here though too the purpose of the grat may not be yes it's
control but not in the manner that I think that some might be thinking it could be straight up for sexual assault
right type of control and I'm not going to go into it too much I mean uh maybe on off the Record or something I don't
feel comfortable discussing what the garat itself could have been used for the thing I will put my stamp on here
though well before we get into that let's point out that where the stun gun idea comes into play
is that there are pictures there were unfortunately or fortunately I guess depending on how you want to look at it
it's incredibly degrading to the victims involved in this case but autopsy photos
were leaked to the Press yeah at some point and you can view them online still to this day based off of that we have L
Smith who later says look you see these two little what look like little prong marks he said this these came from a
stun gun now you have other experts you have Dr Warner Spitz and I trying to think of what he's most famous for he's
covered he's done so many different cases but Warner spits where our listeners would know him the best from
would be from um West Memphis 3 he was the one that that later viewed the photos and said hey these marks are bite
marks from a from Turtles mhm so that that's that dude he says when he views these photographs these are not stun gun
marks they're they're he would expect what he's looking for is a stun gun basically is leaving an electrical burn
type mark on the skin yeah I and he says that what he's seeing doesn't does not appear to be a burn to him I don't see
that on her back the marks on their back that a lot of people think are like maybe a train track set um which would
have been in the room that she possibly was molested in that's the other thing too she has
multiple scrapes and stuff on her back and marks on her arms and stuff like that basically that she was
squirming during the time that she was molested and so could she got these marks on her back at that point yes but
the marks on her face to me I see what looks like a burn between the two marks and you would expect a good deal of
struggle and squirming if in in fact she was being choked and there was some type
of sexual assault prior to death yeah this is what I said I was going to put my stamp on here Captain reviewing the
pictures of the skull I don't know science I'm not a pathologist I'm not claiming to be an expert you take this
for whatever you for what it is it's it's some dumb guy in a garage giving his opinion wait no I should I should go
then should be my turn then but what my opinion is is based off of these photographs the damage to the skull man
I don't think that Burke would have had the strength regardless of weapon to create
this type of damage in one single blow this looks to me to be one single solid hit to the skull mhm I also will go
further and say I don't think and I've seen pictures of John benet's bathroom M the theory that py lost control and
threw her across the room and this was some kind of head injury that occurred when she got thrown across the room or
she hit her head on something after being slapped by paty I'm not saying that paty's innocent what I'm saying is
this injury did not come from anything like that in my opinion this is a single strike a very violent strike to the Head
single strike with with a lot of strength behind it and a lot of force behind it the other thing I will say too
I beg anyone to go out there and look up the garat or what they are calling a garat in this case because what I see
here this is one of those rare times in the case where you see some level of criminal sophistication and what I mean
by that is this this weapon this torture device here appears to me this wasn't the first time time whoever constructed
this this was not the first time that they put one of these things together well most medical examiners call these
kns sophisticated yeah these are not these aren't knots made by a 9-year-old when I look at this what I see if you I
would love if somebody would take the pictures like if I could go back and unsee them and somebody could take away
the words John Benet Ramsay from the photographs and just hand them to me and go oh what's that what's this from what
do you think this is what I see there Captain without anything clouding my vision is an intricate torture device
constructed for the sole purpose of sexual assault yeah and it seems like most of the medical experts
believe again during this sexual assault during this torture that this individual
lost control and ended up hidden in on the head but that at that point the brain wasn't pump the heart wasn't
pumping to the brain already like that's a real thing I guess during strangulation that that will stop
first and it slows it along the way yeah it's still the person's still alive technically but there's no blood or
oxygen pumping to the brain now meaning she'd be brain dead they hit her on the head cuz they lost control or it was
part of fantasy or whatever I think that's a very good possibility but like I said we have fibers whether you want
whether you want to believe this or not because there's experts that contradict each other over and over but there's
fibers in that suitcase and my thought is that this individual for whatever reason the sexual gratification was
going to be better for them uh if they molested her inside the house knowing that our family was there there
was excitement there once they figured out she's dead that wasn't part of the plan The Ransom notes already sitting on
the staircase right mhm I have to get her out of here I am going to use the suitcase to transport her I put
her in the suitcase at this point point no blow to the head I think it's possible that an individual put her in
that suitcase and tried to lift her up through that window and then dropped her and landing on her head yes yes
their suitcase would hit first but she's inside the suitcase and I think that's possibly what
created um that fracture you pointed out something that's very important in this case and
just with every aspect of this case there's so many different opinions there's so many different even expert
opinions and regarding the autopsy itself cause of death injuries to John B how those injuries occurred we've had
many very reputable good solid experts over the years examine this case but what they've examined have been
photographs and what they've examined have been documents there's only been one pathologist to examine the body and
that was Dr Meyers MD in [Music] 1996 for all of our old episodes check us out exclusively on the Stitcher app
and we have a weekly show on Stitcher premium called off the Record cheers to you captain and thanks to everybody out
there for listening thank you for telling a friend and thank you for all of the wonderful festar reviews please
join us back here in the garage next week for episode five until then be good be kind and don't
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JonBenet Ramsey ////// The Autopsy

Episode 4 of 6

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On December 26th 1996, 6-year old JonBenet Ramsey was found murdered in the basement of her home in Boulder, Colorado. Her case remains unsolved. Beer of the Week - Christmas Bomb 2019 by Prairie Artisan Ales Garage Grade - 4 out of 5 bottle caps

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Brief Summary

The episode analyzes the JonBenét Ramsey murder case, focusing on the investigation timeline and autopsy findings.

Key points

Quality Sleep with Ashley. Ashley offers top mattress brands at winning prices, helping children in need with every purchase.
John Ramsey's Frustration. John Ramsey expresses disbelief that the police haven't interviewed him or his wife yet.
The Search for Truth. A discussion on the complexities of truth in the investigation of John Benet's murder.
The Danger of Assumptions. Assumptions made about the timeline and evidence can jeopardize the investigation.
The Complexity of the Case. Two causes of death complicate the investigation, raising questions about the circumstances.
The Innocence of a Child. The victim's innocence is highlighted through personal details, making the case even more tragic.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It can't be both.

Discussion on truth

6:22WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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