FULL EPISODE: Barbara Butcher is Crime Junkie AF (Part 1) | Forensic Files

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[Music] advised crie hi everyone and welcome back to the show made by the crime junkie Ashley
flowers for those who are crime junkie AF and I have the most special treat for you this month I have an extra special
guest with me today that deserves not one but two episodes on L like 40 episodes cuz I could sit and just pick
her brain for weeks you guys she has had the coolest job she's someone who's worked as a death investigator on some
of the biggest cases in New York she is regarded as a renowned expert in medical
legal death investigation spending 23 years at the NYC office of chief medical examiner and as chief of staff and
director of their forensic Sciences training program she's a speaker she's taught at Medical institutions she is a
new author which we'll talk about the list goes on and you might even recognize her from the hit docu series
on Netflix homicide New York please welcome the legendary Barbara butcher oh thank you so much gosh that makes me
sound like some kind of well it's lovely thank you you are some kind of something
I am so excited Barbara you and I actually just kind of ran into each other at an event we were at the Hampton
who done it which is like a true crime meets mystery thriller writer in the Hamptons it was so cool and and I went
to your talk about your new book and I could have listened to you talk forever and I feel I guess I feel like
how crime dunkies feel because I just finished listening to your book which is narrated by you so I've like had 10
hours of you in my ear I feel like we're already best friends but I will make sure we're best friends by the end of
this oh that's terrific thank you so much thank you well I would love to dive in because I know we only have an hour
for this segment and I have so many questions first starting off of why had I never heard the term death
investigator before you and why doesn't every agency have one go um you know because we're not on television that's
the thing you know when you would you see any of these Law and Order any FBI when there's a dead guy at the scene
police show up and then a medical examiner shows up and they poke around a little bit and then they leave that is
so unrealistic now when people think about coroners or medical examiners they think autopsy right because that's a
forensic pathology just getting the cause of death but how do you know the manner of death like how did it come
about and that's why we have seen investigators medical legal death investigators some call them coroners we
go to the scene and we find the context of the death let take like a gunshot wound to the head that's the cause of
death period but is it a homicide a suicide or an accident and how we find out is we go to the scene we investigate
everything talk to Witnesses work with the police examine the body at the scene and then relate it to the scene you
write a report you take your photos back to the forensic pathologist who can now
do an informed autopsy and is is that something though that every agency has and we don't know or because I did just
visit NYPD for the first time and it is what you imagine in TV like the the rooms that they have the tech that they
have have I mean they have an operation unlike a lot of places I've been into like in rural Indiana for example yeah
so is would it be common that every agency has a death investigator or sure really every medical examiner or
coroner's office in the country should have an investigator to go to the scenes now do it doesn't mean they do okay
sometimes they use the local sheriffs or local police to do a death investigation
but do they have the medical background the scientific background to do that not
necessarily and some use Funeral Directors now tell me how that makes sense funeral funeral director is
comfortable with dead folks but are they forensically trained sometimes but not always so
that's why you can get away with murder in this country no kidding yeah yeah so why don't you talk about that what is
what is your training what makes a good death investigator um you know I was uh a physician assistant working in surgery
and um I was bored to [ __ ] to death say [ __ ] [ __ ] you're word of [ __ ] I was I
was a hospital administrator all these things so then shall I tell you how I got this weird job I would love if you
told us how you got this weird job because honestly people are lucky I didn't know about it or they wouldn't
have podcasting I had originally gone to school thinking I was going to be in the
medical field and I hated it and now I'm here I could I could have found a future
in this y you oh definitely um so what happened is the background is I was a smart well-educated [ __ ] up I was
drinking heavily I was partying all the time I had good jobs I lost them and then I got sober I said enough is enough
and thank you know thank God for that because one of the things you get when you get sober is you get help and we had
a program in New York City New York State called era Employment Program for recovering alcoholics teach us how to
work how to get good jobs and they gave me all the test you can imagine Minnesota
multiphasic uh Myers Briggs preferential blah blah to see what I should be cour my uh counselor came and said all right
Barbara we got it you should either be a poultry veterinarian or a coroner you're coming
up with all these jobs that I Anno I know so I said poultry why poultry he said well you know when your patients
died it didn't get better it was very heartbreaking for you and you're good at Diagnostics but you shouldn't be with
puppies or kittens things that would break your heart instead chickens they have beady little eyes nobody likes them
so you know you won't get your heart broken if they die I was like I'll take coroner I'll take coroner so I figured
you know uh dead people won't bother me much mhm I forgot though they have families yeah and that's hard that's the
hard part so um my counselor said I want you to call the one person in New York City who has the best job in the world
so I called Dr Charles Hirsch the chief medical examiner of New York very ballsy
of me and I said can I come in and learn about your work he said of course I'd be
pleased and damned if he wasn't the most amazing sweet man on Earth he had me in
his office and said tell me about yourself made me perfectly at ease and we talked and he told me about the work
I said oh that's for me what I didn't know is they had an opening for an investigator they said you want the job
get out of here just like that just like that and I said oh my God I'm G to fly across this desk and kiss this man
because this is so good I mean this was the dream come true for me I was the kid
that used to dissect animals to see how they died you know everybody would bring
me the roadkill posum with some tire tracks on it or dead fish you were either going to be the serial killer or
find them yes it's a very thin line as you know very thin and um so that's what happened I actually got the
job and they gave me all the training you know going out on every case for three months going to NYPD for homicide
school special victims even went to the FBI Academy to learn about serial killers and pattern killers and I got
the best training in the world oh God I had fun did you feel like you you found your place yeah this was my place in the
universe the little nerdy kid who loved chemistry and biology and cutting things
up now had a place and my dad was a cop so I already was comfortable with that whole world wow now mind you coming into
that job in 199 two okay I was the first woman hired in Manhattan who lasted more
than 3 months there was one woman before me and she couldn't handle it I didn't know if it was the guy she worked with
ribbing at her yeah or the work didn't matter I was going to do it and I did now you know as you know things are
still not equal but back in 90 1992 they were even less equal so one of my first
cases is on my own I go to this homicide detective comes the door says yeah honey
how can I help you honey yeah so I said uh hi I'm barar butcher I'm from the medical examiner's office I'm coming
here to investigate the body and you know do the photos and everything he said don't worry about it honey crime
scenes got it I said no no I have to I mean this is this is my job yeah that I'm was hired to do so he let me in and
uh you know I did my work and I thought this is some [ __ ] right here so the next time it happened cuz invariably it
will right couple weeks later Ganda detective says yeah honey how can I help you I said I tell you what I don't think
you can help me but maybe I can help you cuz I'm going to go in there I'm going to investigate that decedent and I'm
going to tell you how that man died when he died where he died and maybe even who
did it and then someday when you're in court telling the the jury what you learned and going to say where did you
learn that from you're going to say Barbara butcher all right now get out of my way I imagine nice like hair flip as
you walk past them I hope I was wearing heels that day and he just went whoa all right and that
was my entree into the world of the police department don't take any [ __ ] you know own your strength own your
talent because I did have major investigative talent I must say I was very very thorough very into the job
and um you know so then it it all just blossomed and blossomed and I just had the best most interesting craziest job
in the world and of course it was Soul crushing but that came later the soul crushing came later yeah and I actually
want to get there the soul crushing part but let's keep it upbeat for a second you for all the [ __ ] that you got and
you actually talk about it a lot in your book what the dead know mhm you you make
Dr HST sound like an absolute Angel oh yeah I like I am devastated I'll never get to meet this man yeah he sounded
like one of the good ones oh you know he was the only man I ever really loved he
was the most humble brilliant intuitive kind courteous gentleman I've ever met in my life he was my mentor my
father my brother everything to me he taught me not just how to be a good investigator but he taught me ethics and
and how to be a person in the world you know there was one time a family came to
me and said uh you know our brother died in the fire and I'd like to know if he suffered and I was like oh damn I said
excuse me just a moment I'm going to get the records went to Dr hir I said what should I tell them he said the truth
what else were you going to say I saidwell I thought maybe I'd just kind of make up he said no no no no you don't
make up anything people can handle the truth they can't handle uncertainty they can't handle not
knowing but the truth is always much better than what they're imagining so you tell them the truth in a gentle way
because your word is all you have and if you lie to them even once the tiniest bit everything else you say is now
suspect so go do it I love that story and I it was actually one that I took notes on it's in chapter 3 if you're
wondering when you get there um because I think that actually plays so much into
the case we're going to eventually talk about today is this idea that you can't you can't make up a piece even if it's
for the right reasons even if you can't make up this piece and then if and then be like oh well that's a lie but
everything over here that I said I promise that that's the truth like once you lie once it is over it's over and he
seemed like he was full of all of those kinds of life life lessons and ethical lessons like I'm literally like
highlighting the book over and over being like Oh like I feel like I'm going to church when I was reading your book a
little bit every time you got something from Dr hirs I feel like I did too yeah he he told me just simple things you
know they call them Hersh isms and there's even a little book yeah that they made up of all his sayings um but
he told me things like um you can never go wrong if you do the right thing ever just do it and and things will be fine
or um if you think of a thing do it there's no excuse not to do every single part of your job none um and uh and he
was so damn humble you know every couple of weeks we'd have a new class of cops coming in medical students all these
people and Dr herish would come out in the hall and see a group of them and just say hi I'm Charles hirs would you
care to see an autopsy they'd say yeah sure come on take us they take them downstairs they didn't know he was the
chief medical examiner yeah cuz he didn't act like that was a humble man God I loved him I just I still I I got a
picture of him on my desk holding some little kittens that we were bottle feeding he's just the most wonderful
person ever do you think I mean he's obviously one in a million I I feel like I often hear about
like the worst of the worst I and I've worked with a lot of great people in law enforcement too by the time the cases
make it to us usually things have gone ay somewhere yeah do you think that he was he was just one in a million in
everyone or did he stand out so much because of all the other nonsense you saw you know that's a I never thought of
that but that's a really good point he stood out for his Integrity yeah you know just among all the workers police
everyone else but you're absolutely right in that I was seeing the absolute worst of humanity yeah the most brutal
Killers the most evil of the evil and set against that backdrop I was suspicious of everyone except him oh and
I think you're right that he he stood out even more in that setting um but no matter where he was he
was the man in the room with all the Integrity so did a lot of people in your role for their for their whole careers
or was it a role where you saw people getting burnt out quickly oh a lot of burnout a lot of drinking gambling now
especially 9/11 you know people were acting out left and right so you were there for 9/11 oh God yes yeah
um you know back then I remember going to Dr H now he he did was wrong sometimes I went to him one day and I
said Chief you know a lot of the guys are kind of burning out a lot of alcoholism here and you know we're
having a rough time I think maybe some counseling would be good he said no Barbara we're very very strong people we
can do this and we do it because we can and so few can he was wrong yeah we were
a mess still a damn mess you know but uh it is interesting his his point though because a lot of people um I've even had
the question of like oh does it you're talking about this and and Grant I'm not even seeing it I'm just talking about it
but it's all day every day does it get to you and I I said I think some people are built to do it yeah in a way that
other people's AR other people aren't and this is where I think you are right like in that even the people who are
built to do it no one's meant to do this forever and not have a a another side to
this or an outlet for it um but I do think that there are certain people who can live in this world and it not affect
them in the way that it might other people like I've never once had a dream about a case I've never I me I could
have you looked at autopsy photos crime scene photos and it it just doesn't I'll
think about it non-stop it's living in my brain but when I close my eyes it's not there you're so lucky you're so I'm
I'm so haunted by images and um you know early on one of the keys to doing that job is Detachment the ability to drop a
curtain over your em emotions I remember going into a scene where a whole family was
killed um they were looking the the uh perpetrators were looking for the 17-year-old son who was a drug dealer
working for them apparently he took something whatever so they came to his house he wasn't there but his family was
and I guess they said to the father where's the drugs he said I don't know and they shot him they asked the mother
and she I don't know then the 12-year-old son not even 12 maybe he was more like nine or 10 but anyway I get
into the scene and there all the these people dead and there's a three-year-old who's walked through his parents blood
and there's little tiny Footprints of a three-year-old going through this apartment his little tiny toes in
Blood and I was kind of in shock but I said all right do your job just do it drop the curtain and one of the crime
scene guys said to me hey Barbara I'm going to get started with the mother why don't you go in and do the kid I said
yeah sure H do it and I go in to see the little boy and he's in his bedroom and he's laying face down he had soft Brown
curls and golden skin and a um and a gunshot wound in his head and a Star Wars backpack he was obviously getting
ready to go to school and he was murdered and my heart stopped I I think it it just froze in my chest I was in
shock I couldn't deal with it so I went back out in the living room I saw an officer I said excuse me officer can you
uh come in here and witness my exam you know just in case he said just in case so what I said well you know the
evidentiary blah Blas of the Hackle words words words yeah words words yeah I went back in and with him there I was
able to have an audience for whom I could act competent cool and unaffected couldn't do it on my own but now I had
an audience I was able to do my examination cut my feelings off and for that moment I was okay am I
okay now no damn it because I can still see those tow prints I can still see the
softness of his curly soft hair and uh I wish I'd never seen that you probably you've probably seen a lot
a real lot a real lot that was I mean and in New York City of all places I think is where you're going to see
everything yeah it's the most interesting place to die because there's so many different ways to die in New
York oh you know you can go subway surfing oh my God wait what is subway surfing oh subway surfing is something
that kids do uh teenagers they'll jump on the back of a Subway as it's leaving the station climb up onto the top of it
and then surf it they'll ride it through the tunnels what they don't realize is that there are metal bars coming down
yeah they get knocked off they get beheaded they get maned and then there's elevator surfing
in the projects you got four elevators right you prop the door open when the when the elevator comes down to you you
jump onto the roof of it through the propped open doors and you ride the elevator up and down up and down 20
stories if you're a pro you jump from one elevator to the next and whoever jumps the most times wins I feel like
there's a scene in Mission Impossible that haunts me where he's like on the elevator yeah no yeah absolutely that's
how it is it's real how are these kids bored they live in like the most interesting city in the world this is UN
but they're poor and they have no money and they have no opportunity they live in the projects it's either drug dealer
or dead things are are rough God for minority poor disenfranchised people what part of the city did you do most of
your work in um Manhattan was my my beat I did the whole city uh most homicides took place up in the northern part
Harlem Washington Heights Inwood uh and then Pockets around Midtown you know you
could kind of see the flavor of a homicide depending on where you were really oh sure if you go to Midtown
where all the office buildings are and all the white collar jobs you're going to see the kind of homicide where a guy
gets fired comes in and you know shoots two people and then shoots himself or if
you go up to Harlem or Washington Heights you're going to see the so-called business homicides it's not
personal it's business it's drug dealing and Joey shoots Tony and then Joey's crew is happy but Tony's crew is
going to get revenge and they come back and they kill Joey and two more for good
luck and uh it goes on and on and on so they're just business homicides were you
involved for like a long time or is it really just is is most of your work done there at the scene you make a report and
then you have to go to the next one on to the next absolutely and that's that makes it even harder because there was
no resolution for me no satisfaction until I went to court okay it takes a year a year and a half to actually get
in court with a homicide uh um or any other case for that matter and so by the time I was called to testify I didn't
know what the hell was going on but that was fine because all I could testify to
with any uh certainty was what I had seen and what I had interpreted so I would talk about you
know the position of the body and how I knew what the mother was doing while her
daughter was strangled with the mother's you know scarf or or how I knew when someone's throat was cut where they were
standing the blood spray your book taught me that there's a difference between a cut and a laceration oh there
sure is I learn something new every day yeah and most doctors don't even know that in the emergency room they say you
know patient came in with multipal lacerations I said really what what's the lacerations from a knife no that's a
cut buddy laceration is when you take like a baseball bat slam it down on the Flesh and the flesh splits over open and
that tells you the weapon that tells you the number of the force and the number of of of strikes that you know they
receive the number of blows you can learn acres and encyclopedias worth of wound patterns just by seeing case after
case I can tell you what somebody was hit with was it a crowbar was it a machete was it a hack machete I could
even tell you what kind of knife sometimes W double Hilt single blade curd you know all these things so did
you were you in court for most of your cases or were there any ones that you would go ask about and follow up on or
did you have to the way you have to detach did you have to just move on to the next one and not think about it I
had to move on but you know some cases bothered me so much and I just had to know what happened so I would see the
same detectives over and over and I'd say hey Rob you know what happened with that mope who beat his mother on the
two3 precinct he oh yeah yeah we got him but you know we had to let him go because uh you know there was nothing
there to link him this is in the days before DNA was so popular and so in use um and you know I said all right well
he's out on the street again ain't that something and the cases that went to court you most people plead out yeah
they plead a deal they go save the taxpayers money and time um the ones I went to were the the bigger ones the
more controversial um you know things like the Central Park babyfaced butchers two kids 15 years old decide to
slaughter a man in the park at night and beautiful Central Park our Oasis of peace and serenity in New York but these
two brats decided H we need something to do tonight and no one still knows why they
did that H but here's the kicker they did it on Rollerblades wait what yeah can you
imagine being such a good rollerblader that you could as a small guy as a small girl hack a man to death
stab him 63 64 times oh my God and while the big man big tall man fights for his
life and you're on Rollerblades and they never met this man they just were the girl anyone who was walking in the park
no the girl had known him um from a rehab facility um and you know they all sort
of hung around the park she had seen him before I guess and that night when she came to meet her friends to sit and
drink Heinekens out of a six-pack she said uh I just need I I need to stab a [ __ ] tonight something like that
you know something to those effect and uh and then the little guy the little 15-year-old Christopher who liked her
you know thought she maybe she was my girlfriend he went along with it you know and um and they just did it and
then rollerbladed out of the park which was interesting for me because as I came
up to the scene you know I'm on the uh the pathway from 72nd Street that leads into the park and I see my buddy Hal
Sherman crime scene investigator he's on his hands and knees oh look Barbara look
at this blood spatter pattern we could tell by the way the blood Drop Falls and then has Force acceleration behind it it
leads smears like an exclamation point and points to where the person was going so it has directionality and movement
and uh we can see this little trail of blood just going right out of the park as they skated
home and we could even tell how quickly they were moving because that affects the shape of the
blood drop so it was just dripping off their knives as they rollerbladed home isn't that the damnest thing you ever
heard of and did they end up getting convicted yeah yeah you know how long they served seven years
each wow can you imagine a 15-year-old evil brutal killer serves seven years that's sure amazing isn't it is
that like and and again when when I like when I I get into something I just like
I can't let go and I keep following it did you ever like follow what happened to them after they got out sure yeah
I've tried I've tried because there's something in me that has to know why why even if it's a seemingly dumb reason
like oh I was bored I was angry anything but just give me some reason this one I
couldn't figure it out I think that's why why so many people are interested in true crime in general I think that we we
H like our brains can't handle the not knowing why like everything's got to have some kind of reason and Order and
place and and when it doesn't make sense we we try to make it make sense and I I
I agree with that and I would think also that the reason so many women like True
Crime is because we need to know what we're up against yeah we need to understand how husbands kill their wives
why why sometimes wives kill their husbands what are the red Flags right what do people do we need to know
because we need to protect ourselves an educated consumer your best customer when you're on a scene for the
first time is is there some kind of formula is there certain things that you look for first or is every single scene
a completely different Beast um yes they're all different but here's my method my procedure First Take
take my hands off my ears put them over my mouth learn to listen and not talk so
much nobody needs my theories right now I just need to hear everything then the most important thing is to stand at the
entrance to the scene matter what it is and take in the totality of it feel it you know smell it um hear it there's so
much you'll discover and how a person lives often dictates how they die right so if you
come into a scene and there are scales and bags of white powder you all these kind of things and there's a a guy in
the corner he's dead no obvious wounds but he's dead well now we got a pretty good idea of how he may have died cuz
we've seen his lifestyle coming into that scene you know you'll either see you'll learn a lot you'll see what kind
of a person lives there um here's a good for instance which I saw a lot in the early days
uh you come into the apartment of a single man and it's very well decorated there's art on the walls he's well
dressed um it's tasteful and it's clean and there's food in the refrigerator and
his face is bashed in hell with a beautiful vase which is now in shatters on the floor what does that mean gay man
Hustler gay men especially older successful gay men you know they'd go out out and pick up um a guy in a bar
and the hustlers they'd always say I'm not gay I just do this for the money and they charge the guy a couple
hundred bucks come home with him but then I've read about this that a funny thing happens they look into the eyes of
their victim of the man they're with and suddenly they see a reflection of themselves and their internalized
homophobia IA kicks in and puts them into a rage so what do they beat in his face why because he's looking at them
and that's where they're seeing themselves so whenever I saw that I thought okay gay man start com in the
bars for the hustlers or ah when I would come into a room and see a pregnant woman beaten to
death or a mother beaten to death and in each case they had something covering their face with the mother I remember
there was a couch cushion over her face she was just beaten to hell with the pregnant woman there was blood spray
blood spatter everywhere on the walls but there was a pillow over her face was that to smother them no they were
already dead the reason was that so their eyes could not look at their son or husband when a man is in a frenzy and
kills his mother because she wouldn't give him drug money is what it turned out to be she finally put her her foot
down he beat her to death but then she's laying on the floor his rage is now dissipated and his mother is laying
there Dead with her eyes open and she's looking at him and can't take it he can't take it he's got to cover her face
so I remember walking into that scene and saying all right she got a son is he a junkie and they're like yeah I said
well there's your guy and that's the feeling you get in a scene there's no substitute for that for that
careful observation something is that something that you can get in pictures years later
mm I sure can I see them all yeah I see every one of those scenes my God I see the color of the
lights I think in the book you might have read about the uh the chapter I call [ __ ] entiments you know our local
doughnut supplier I can still see the man wrapped up under a Christmas tree smothered with his face full of
sweat smothering is such a nasty death you know and uh I see him under This brilliant beautiful Christmas tree with
the presents and the lights it was such a happy tree and there was a tag on his chest MH
that said Maria you're next few minutes later I hear screams in the background I said to the officer
what the hell's that that he said that's Maria can you imagine M the terror that was one of the worst nights
of my life it was just one case after another and it was my birthday so it was really happy birthday Barbara thank you
happy Christmas Eve happy birthday happy death I'm December 19th I'm a birth Miss
baby too oh oh there you go but did you get one present or two just just the one
of course yeah happy happy birthday Merry Christmas yeah it was a birthday present in Christmas rapping and there
no one could ever be bothered to go get the Christmas rapping absolutely and did
you ever have a party no because nobody could come thank you they're all they're
all busy they're all Christmas break no one's in school everyone's got family stuff no no I asked my mom for a party
she said no everybody's busy nobody will come to this day I can't give a party cuz I think nobody will come I think you
can throw a badass Christmas Eve birthday party I just might I'll come I just might thank you I hope so
um no but you know that's how it is so when did when did the job stop giving you life and start taking it from you o
good question you know now early on in my training um I was watching the autopsy of an eight-year-old girl who'd
been raped and smothered and the pathologist doing the the case this woman named Jackie Lee
very fine doctor and I said my God how do you do this every single day how do you take this I I can barely look at
this poor child she said Barbara when you leave here every day I want you to surround yourself with things of beauty
art music food love dance everything it's the only counterbalance to the death Despair and
destruction that you see her every day and I thought yeah well that's some hippie [ __ ] I ain't listening to
that how many years in when you thought it was hippie [ __ ] well that was in the beginning about four years later I
realized oh my God she's right I am living and breathing death all day long I'm becoming unbearable to my partner I
come home and all I want to do is get out of my body I want to just hide from myself CU I don't want to see what I saw
and you were still sober during all of that oh yeah I stayed sober that's unbelievable a miracle right um and so
uh I finally bought this Little Country House I had a dog and two cats and trees
and suddenly I realized this is it this is what I needed nature life but you know then the crimes after about 10
years they were piling up so many tragedies so many children women people just tormented and so much
evil and Dr hir called me and he said barbar you know you know you're not doing too good why don't you take a
little vacation how did he know you weren't doing good um because I wasn't laughing
anymore I like to crack a lot of jokes I like to laugh have a good time but I wasn't laughing and he saw that he saw
my face was gray I didn't look happy so I thought well I don't need any damn vacation but I do need some surgery
so maybe I'll just go out and do that need surgery yeah so I'll do surgery now so uh I took six six weeks off had my
surgery and uh it was good because my partner at the time had a little boy six years old who I loved more than life
and just playing with him having little adventures it it was absolutely life restoring he gave me so
much love and pleasure so then you know it's time to get back to work I was supposed to come
back on September 11th and I called my boss on a Friday I said boss I can't come in I don't feel good I I know I'm
du back in but I just I'm not quite ready he said Barbara you can't do that I've got the schedule all up who am I
going to get to cover you got to commit I said I can't do it David this is my supervisor you were supposed to come
back on September 11th yeah and he actually the day before the 10th oh my God and he said um now you got to do it
I said no I'll tell you what I'll come in Wednesday just give me that long consequently I was not there with
my colleagues and Friends when the planes hit or when the buildings collapsed on them when the
buildings fell on Dr hsh Who thank God was blown by the force of the explosion under a pedestrian
bridge with my buddy Diane another investigator they were tumbled and blown under there and the rubble is raining
down on them steel beams concrete and they're under there and they're just waiting to die
Dian said oh I just thought oh this is my moment of death and Dr H said the same thing he saidou know I just thought
oh well this is how it ends this is I'm going to die now I wasn't upset just curious I don't think I'd be that cool
about it no me either especially with all their injuries I would be in Terror which they both said the same thing it
was strangely peaceful and then they didn't die the rubble stopped coming down they were
protected by this halfway collapsed pedestrian bridge that covered them from the
worst of the rubble and Diane tried to get up but her leg was snapped and you know terribly
broken poking out of the skin Dr Hurst tried to get up and his ankle was torn to shreds he was bleeding his they both
had head injuries and then Through the flames through the smoke through the Dust
came a big fireman and Diane said he looked like an angel of the Lord and he came through and he picked her up and he
carried her out and someone carried Dr hirs out over the rubble over piles and hills of burning buildings and people
and they carried them to the Hudson River threw them on barges to get out and they lived they're damaged I was
did it change the way that they worked after that oh hell yeah you know Diane she was my good buddy we had a
wonderful time we laughed a lot and uh after that well I mean her leg has never been the same she's in pain it's 22
years later and she's still in pain and ah Dr hirs he said I'm fine I'm fine well guess he counseling yeah you don't
I don't need anything but you know what every single one of his ribs were broken
oh my God and he didn't tell anyone breathing must have been Agony for him but he didn't tell anybody and I didn't
find out until he got pneumonia and I went to the hospital with him and they said oh my God all your lung your ribs
were broken what happened nothing nothing I'm okay oh my God yeah Dr hirs yeah exactly exactly like come
on um and you know Diane now works oh she always was a person who she'd go overseas and do medical missions to help
people you know and set up little clinics and work in the with Doctors Without Borders things like that and now
she still does that and she also does more spiritual things you know trying to get I think away from that horror of
death into a peaceful place and I I just uh I love her and I hope that she always
finds that peace so so was there a a moment for you a casee for you or it was just
retirement time and you were like yep I'm not doing a minute more than I have to nope I never would have left never
never never were it not for the politics of New York City ah now after many years as an investigator
and after 911 I became director of Investigations then forensic science then even I was even acting director of
the nna lab and I became chief of staff for the agency and uh running it for Dr Hirsch and um I was a Mayor Bloomberg
kind of girl you know I worked with his people very closely and then a new mayor
come in Bill Blasio I'm gonna shut my mouth right now politics now as he is is as is his
privilege he replaced all the top people in the agencies with his friends was there any reason to get rid
of me nope I wasn't the top top but he did ah and there's a whole political story about that I'll let you read it in
the book but you know and suddenly I'm gone 23 years of incredible experience and knowledge and I mean I
had been overseas I worked the the tsunami in East Asia in 2004 238,000 people killed and I had the privilege of
going there to try to help the London Underground bombings the flight airplane crashes I
knew what I was doing and did you go when you you were still with the medical examiner's office oh wow they sent you
oh yeah yeah the United Nations sent us over to the East Asia we went to Thailand and helped them out that was a
complicated situation but you know um the the worst thing that happened was when I lost my job I lost my identity m
I had allowed it to become who I was if I met you somewhere and you said oh tell
me about yourself I'd say well I'm Barbara butcher the chief of staff New York City medical examiners often blah
blah blah I didn't say oh well I'm a grandmother and I have this and I you know I live here and there and I like to
sew no I don't but you my identity was the job when I lost it I went a little nuts what' you do
what was the nuttiest thing you did go crazy really did wait really oh yeah yeah I'm not going to tell it what
happened cuz it's the end of the book and it's kind of wild but okay I was g i was I wanted
it um no it's you know it's it was really bad it was really bad but the good news is where am I today I'm
sitting here with you we're having a wonderful conversation we're getting to know each other we're having a good time
and I'm happy I have life I have unlimited opportunities I have the whole world and my grandchildren the best
thing in the world and um that is just it's the most incredible luck ever that I came out of it okay and better
than okay I'm having a very good life now what made you want to write a book Co of course I did yeah exactly I know I
have it and and I loved it loved it um so I uh I eventually after I got unraised um I started a little
Consulting business working with families attorneys to reinvestigate cases that were either incomplete or the
people didn't agree with the findings okay and it was a good living very nice I worked with some writers you know
giving them uh forensic lessons and some script people and then Co hit my business died
and I thought you know there's a very good chance I could die in this and I'll never get to tell my stories I'll never
get to tell the stories of the people who I got to know in their deaths I'll never get to represent what they were in
life and I should do that I started writing and writing and writing and I got an agent I was lucky
and uh sold it to Simon and Schuster and the editor took a look at the first draft and said Barbara where are you I
said I'm right here in your office he said no no where are you in this book I see your stories your Mysteries your
cases but I don't see you rewrite it I said oh sh that's hard part oh [ __ ] I got to be vulnerable yeah I got to tell
you what happened how I felt I can't imagine the book without you in it yeah which is wild to think about I'm glad
that you know I got the right editor yeah and um you know they they they told me take the reader into the scene with
you let them smell what you smell and hear what you hear and feel what you feel and that was so hard because
sometimes I'd cry I'd write about something I had seen and I'd remember that feeling
of just despair coming over me like what is the world if there's so much evil mhm
and um I'd cry a little bit and then I'd go back to the keyboard and keep writing
and um and I think it's a much better book for it cuz you're there with me you know and
uh it was hard though it was very hard and I'm so glad I did it because you know in so many ways it was a release of
the past here's what happened here's how I dealt with it and onward was it difficult for you you're such a
good Storyteller oh or did you did it feel like it really did just flow out of you oh it just flowed as far as the
stories yeah I love telling stories I always have and you know I these been percolating in my in my head for years
you know the like the first one the first case in there about the the hanging man the booby trapped hanging
man that always struck me as the damnest thing in the world that I could be electrocuted by suicidal man I'll leave
the details to the reader well it and it is the so fascinating the way that you wo your book because you it is your
story and and you are what takes us from start to finish but as a crime junkie I
mean you deliver on these like individual cases all the way through and the lessons you learned and the
takeaways you had and like I said I mean I walked away being like oh look at me I'm smarter for
this you know I did purposely put in there for for True Crime fans I put in about determining time of death how we
really do it you know it's an art and a science and I put in things about how you get fooled by you know the artifacts
of death my favorite parts are when you [ __ ] up yeah and you like it so when you talk about time of death that you
tell the story about how you you're with this family oh yeah you're with this family and they they ask you and you're
like okay I'm going to go do my thing and you tell them that this man died at a certain time and they're like oh my
God he was talking or with this person an hour later they must have killed him and you're like a [ __ ] I forgot the
number one rule you got to like figure out when they were last spoken to or right what what's the first question
when was he last seen or spoken to alive and then I can tell you what time he died but boy that was a mess up yeah
yeah I've made lots of mistakes but I learned from every single one of them and Dr hir never bitched me out he never
said Barbara why did you do that he'd say Barbara I'm curious the thinking behind that did it work out no okay so
next time yeah we'll think differently yeah you tell a good story of when you went to court oh and messed up and Dr
hirs was being Dr hirs and you're like yeah that the beautiful thing about him was that he I was already feeling bad
enough like I I I was beating myself up I didn't need to be beat up even more but he told me what not to do next time
how can I show up better the next time and I think that is you know for all the reasons we've said he's he seems amazing
and great it's a sign of a really good Mentor leader yeah yeah yep so he yeah he he taught me so much about life and
you know not beating anybody up for mistakes making it a learning experience so what's the next chapter
for you you know the the book is you had it last chapter but what now what's life
look like television television after doing the Dick Wolf series homicide New York on Netflix I
um I had a really good time I'm doing that because I got to see the guys again people I hadn't seen in years and I got
to tell the stories um to an audience who could maybe understand it's such a you know broad audience with Netflix
that maybe they could see a little bit about who we are what we go through why we care so much and why we do what we do
that was a privilege to me so the next thing I'm working on with with Dick Wolf Productions is um a true crime
television show uh we're not quite sure yet of how that's going to look because every
producer's got another idea and they keep weaving them together it's going to happen well God willing don't you hate
to say that it's GNA happen and then my God yeah yeah forget it um so if it happens it'll be wonderful I'll get to
work on in cases like cold cases or missing persons which bothers the hell out of me those are the ones that I
can't get out of my head I know do you realize there's 84,000 active missing persons cases in the FBI right now and
every year we add 6,000 I'm talking long-term missing persons that's unbelievable 10 years without seeing
your son and never knowing what happened to him but you know what here's the [ __ ] of it we can solve them now with
um whole genome sequencing DNA and um the uh in um what do you investigative genetic
genealogy we can we can find out who these people are we've got so many advances what don't we have money money
thank you but if I get this show I'm going to show up in each Town each Police Department with a bag full of
money hell yeah and we're going to use it to get the right experts on this case going to be amazing and we're going to
solve them that's and then I'm going to call you and say Ashley you're never going to believe this case
sign me up I can't wait yeah I'm very excited has anyone talked about optioning your book oh yeah stick wolf
has the option oh yeah they were talking about doing a um like a 10p part streaming series uh bingeable on
you know the book my life what happened the whole thing so that's that's still in the works but you know Hollywood is a
different kind of animal I can't do it again that's why I say like I'm going to stick to podcasting because when I have
an idea I want to be able to make the thing three weeks later put it out to the world and ask people if they like it
yeah yeah now here you have to if someone loves something they have to run it up through 14 layers of management
yeah who's like who are so disconnected from the people who are actually going to watch it exactly I know I know you
know know been there you've been there so the important question who would you want to play you oh gosh you know have
you thought about it yeah I have but everybody's you know it would have to be me back at like say 39 40 years old and
everybody I'd want like eat Falco that kind they're all they're all too old now you know so and I don't know all the
young you know actors and actresses these days so but you know I do know that Dr HST should be played by Jeff
Goldblum oh really yeah I think so I mean he's tall he's handsome in an odd way and I think he has the right dry
humor the ryness that Dr hirs had perfect Dr was a very funny person but in a very dry way one day I went into
him just hanging out seeing how he was doing we're talking I said You Know Chief I'm thinking about getting a
little plastic surgery he said oh Barbara please don't get any better looking I love him I love him isn't that
the sweetest thing freaking Dr H all right well so I have I have picked your brain sufficiently about your career I
am like itching to talk about the case today let's do it so if you're in for it let's
jump there let's do it Barbara before we jump in I'm sure your books are going to
come up in Suzanne's case but one more time you want to tell people the name of your book where they can find it yes
it's called uh what the dead know learning about life is a New York City death investigator by Barbara Butcher
and yes that's my real name I people think mine's not my real name either I know I love that when you had something
in there where you're like we like why do they call you Butcher and you're like that's just the [ __ ] name my name and
uh you can get it anywhere books are sold bookstores Barnes & Nobles uh Independence and Amazon yeah and again
plug for my audio friends Barbra reads her own Audi book so if you've loved Barbara's voice and hearing her again
you get to hang out with her for like 10 hours it's great all right so this isn't
the end for Barbara and I there is another episode a part two to this that you can listen to now and we're going to
dive into the case of Suzanne morphew so please stick around and listen to that next and don't forget to follow the show
and add to your library and don't forget to follow crime junkie we'll have brand
new episodes the last Friday of every month but if you can't wait until then you can head to Crime junkie radio on
SiriusXM on the app for your 247 True Crime fix you can follow me at Ashley flowers on Instagram and Ashley flowers
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Ashley Flowers talks with Barbara Butcher about her career as a Death Investigator in New York. They cover the true crime community, chickens, and much more!

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00:00 - 1:57 - Intro 1:57 - 4:22 - What is a Death Investigator? 4:23 - 8:57 - Meet Barbara 8:58 - 10:49 - “You can’t help me, but I am gonna help you” 10:50 - 15:26- An Ode to Dr. Hirsch 19:56 - 21:25 - “Games” in New York 21:25 - 28:24 - Neighborhood Differences 28:25 - 29:36 Figuring out the “Why?” 29:37 - 33:32 - Barbara’s Process 33:33 - 37:14 - “I Still See Them All” 38:26 -42:30 9/11 Involvement 42:34 -45:49 - Life After the Job 45:50 - 51:05 Birth of “What the Dead Know” 51:06 - 55:25 Netflix + TV

Brief Summary

Barbara Butcher shares her experiences as a death investigator in NYC, discussing her career, ethical lessons, and insights from her book.

Key points

Meet Barbara Butcher. Barbara Butcher, a renowned death investigator, shares her incredible journey in forensic science.
The Importance of Truth. Barbara discusses the significance of honesty in her role as a death investigator.
Unique Deaths in NYC. Barbara explains the various ways people die in New York City, highlighting its unique challenges.
The Rollerblade Killers. Two teenagers committed a shocking murder while rollerblading in Central Park.
The Emotional Toll of Crime Scenes. A detective reflects on the psychological impact of witnessing horrific crimes.
Surviving 9/11. A detective recounts the harrowing experience of being absent during the 9/11 attacks.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

That's why you can get away with murder in this country.

Barbara discussing the lack of trained death investigators.

4:20WatchJun 7, 2024

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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