Episode 69 /// Off The Record | Forensic Files

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] Hey, uh, your buddy Bill Huffman. Hi, Bill. Hi, Bill. Hey. Hi, D. He's
always listening. So, I I hope he's listening. Um, you did uh a bunch of stuff with uh Who
Killed Amy Mahalovic. Mhm. And he I think he's doing a series on Danny Green. Dan Green. Danny Green. I did so
much stuff with Who Killed Amy Mahalavik and I think I've said this here before.
I felt like he should name me as co-host of the show. I how many episodes do you
think you were on? Um he tweeted about it all the time. I'm like is he on again?
I I you know what and all in all looking back maybe I'm only on like four episodes and I think he did like 16 or
something. So So I'm kind of joking there but um I know he and I have spoke about the case many times. So it feels
feels more than that to me. If you're interested in the Amy Mahalovic case, uh, that's something you definitely want
to check out. But, uh, I did some music for him for his new thing on The Irish Man. And then he sent me an email
or maybe his Twitter or something. Uh, he's doing another show where he is going to be interviewing podcasters
about, I think, unsolved cases that they're fascinated by. M um but when he sent me
the message, I I thought to myself, he probably sent this to me before he he sent you a message. Mhm. So, I felt
honored by that. Uh if that is true, but if you check your email today, um maybe
it's not true, but but I thought it was an interesting idea because we we all have these cases that we go back to. Um,
like it just seems like I if if you're a true crime fan that that's just like some weird commonality that we all have.
I have not met anybody that's a true crime fan so far and I've met thousands of them
that didn't have one or two cases that they always went back to. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, cuz there's some that for whatever
reason stick with you more than others. And there's also some that you know, like you talked about a YouTube rabbit
hole or or reading online forums or anything like that. There's some for whatever reason that you you're so
interested in the case and what information is out there about the case that you cannot get enough you cannot
consume or digest enough Yeah. information about the case. And some of it is look whatever interests you or whatever
whatever fascinates you go for it. But um I will say no no don't do that and well well yeah you know within limits.
Yeah. Let's not let's not uh there are laws and uh people's feelings to consider. Yeah. If you see a link that
says a farmer with his horse, you don't need to click on that. But I I will say in some cases in Amy's case will would
be included in that there there are sometimes where I find I'm like unfortunately I'm like [ __ ] I
think I just wasted hours of my life because I couldn't pull myself away from from you know books,
TV, computer screen, whatever because you get locked in. Well, that's a conundrum because if you locked in on a
case, but you know, if you go it's it's sometimes it's not the first hour, sometimes it's the second hour that you
find something that maybe doesn't mean anything, but it can be very fascinating. Like it
it might not mean anything, but it could mean everything. And and I feel like I've been repeating that a lot lately.
Uh but with so many cases it's like something could mean everything, something could mean nothing. But uh but
you're very uh you know a segue into you're very entrenched into Ohio cases. Yes, I've I've been always been
fascinated with Ohio cold cases, homicides. Um, and primarily for the number one reason for
me is that the cases that really pique my interest are ones especially where the if they're took place in a place
where I've been before. Like if you can visualize because I prefer to read true crime rather than to watch it or to
listen to it. And so when picking up a book or reading something online or or wherever I may find it, the cases that
intrigue me the most are the ones where I can kind of visualize the lay of the land and visualize things as they're
being described and as they're happening. Um, so I think that's why for me Ohio cold cases have always intrigued
me more than than cases from other areas just because I know the lay of the land
and I can visualize things. And the thing too is the landscape and people and communities change throughout the
years. And having been born and raised in Ohio, I I have a better understanding of of that in those neighborhoods and in
those areas. Right. I I wonder if that's one of the reasons I think one of the reasons why people
are so fascinated by uh West Memphis 3 is one the age of the victims and and and just how they were hanging out
beforehand. I think there's some psych psychology there where we we've all been those eight-year-olds riding around on
our bikes. Uh we've all been confronted back in the day that that was your mode of transportation. That's how you knew
if if your buddies were home, you know, you could drive by you could ride your bike by their house and you could see
their bike was outside and you go, "Oh, so and so's home." Or or there's a bunch
of bikes outside that they had a party and they didn't invite you. Um well, that one has the added layer of
the the suspects, the people that are that are tried and ultimately convicted and, you know, regardless of what side
of the fence you stand on. Um, it has the added layer of a lot of people identify with the the people the the
teenage boys that end up being tried for the case. Yeah, I was going to get to that. Oh, sorry. But but my first point
is that that you you identify with the victims because you've been the kids that were on your bikes playing after
school. Uh, you know, hey, meet me at my house after school. We've all been there. And then like you said, the
suspects being teenagers, feeling like outcasts, and and a lot of people in the true crime genre.
whether or not you listen to heavy metal music or um industrial music like Manson
or 9-in Nails like you all had, you know, personally, not me, cuz I I think having a father that
was a detective, I never felt like true crime was like a hobby. Like I didn't feel that way. But but but
I know, you know, like I said, meeting thousands and thousands of people that are into true crime, knowing that now
with it being like in vogue, I guess, right? Uh now we're starting going, "Oh man, there's
so many of us." Um we just didn't know it before. Because if you did bring it up, you might feel like a outcast.
There's, you know, there's so many memes about, you know, like meeting a stranger
and within like minutes stop. Oh, I never brought it up when I was younger. And it wasn't I never looked at it as a
hobby either. It was um I enjoyed reading and especially, you know, when we were kids, teachers,
parents more so, I believe, were pushing reading more than they do today. Um, I don't know that to be a fact, but I
remember when we were very young, they were pushing reading a lot with with things like contest at school with uh
remember you would track what books you read and when and you like would um anyway,
so it was it was something that I enjoyed doing was reading just in general. But I found that I gravitated
towards I I tend to prefer to read true crime. Mhm. You know, if you sent me into a bookstore and would let me look
at all the shelves, that would be typically what I would walk out with, much to the dismay of my parents. Well, and if
you I'm a huge bookstore lover. Um, just like I we have a great shop in town. Um,
the smelly bookstore. It's not called I know, but that's what I call it. Go ahead. You think it smells? I do. The
book loft. Yeah. Bad. Do you think it smells bad? I think it's got a It's got an interesting odor to it. It's I'm not
saying it's a bad bookstore. It's a fant it's a wonderful bookstore. They should
take my advice. I don't know if they've made one yet, but I came up with this a long time ago. Uh and my ex-wife
was not a fan of a lot of my ideas, but I came up with the idea. Um it's so funny, too. That's just It seems
right. That sounds right. The the best thing about it is I you know a lot of people don't know our whole story and I
won't go into that but we didn't have any communication for about three and a half years.
Not my desire. I wanted to be a part of her kids' lives and it I think it was cramping her style her single lifestyle.
So, we didn't talk. And when we finally did talk, it's because she found out about the show. And and she wasn't like,
"Congratulations on the show." She was like, "I can't believe you. I wanted to talk about cases all the time and you
never would talk to me about them." And uh which is which is Sorry, I have something go on with my phone there. Oh,
it's plain. But, you know, it's um for whatever reason, it's just like I I I guess I never talked about the cases,
you know, cases with her. Uh I never really maybe showed her that I was cuz she would always be watching stuff,
true crime stuff. And I'd always watch it. I just wouldn't kind of keep my thoughts to myself. I didn't know it was
like, you know, I could I could have kept the marriage together if I would have just talked more about Casey
Anthony. But um but yeah. Yeah, she was she was saying that, you know, I can't believe you. But but anyways, one of my
best ideas that she actually believed in was Barnes & Noble has a smell. It's like new book.
Not the franchise, just a a particular store, I guess. No, no, the franchise. The whole every bookstore of Barnes &
Noble smells the same. Well, look, I've only been in three or four. Okay, out of
the three or four I've been in, they all smell the same. It's like this new book
smell, which is nice. It's a nice smell. And there's normally a Starbucks within
the Barnes & Nobles that I've been to. So, it's kind of this Starbucks meets new book smell.
And it's fabulous. And I think if Barnes & Noble made a candle called the new book smell or Barnes & Noble, whatever
you want to call it, you know, it's a new book smell with a hint of coffee, you know. Um, and probably like a hint
of uh elitist smell, you know, like I'm in That's the people that shop at Barnes & Noble.
Well, anybody that is in a bookstore is an elitist. It's like, you know, I read books. I'm I'm smarter than everybody.
Is that what that means? Like a like a 1% is what I'm saying. 80% roughly new book smell,
19% coffee Starbucks smell, 1% elitist smell. And that and it would be a perfect
candle. All right, but anyways, I digress. We have Nobody would buy the the candle of the book loft. See, I
don't think the book loft Oh, yeah. I Maybe you need that little elitist smell. Maybe that's what's maybe that's
what's changing because the the book loft does not smell good. They just open up a window. I don't think it smells
bad. Okay, I could see it being a little stuffy. It feels a little stuffy, but it's also like a hundred-year-old
building. Yeah. Yeah. But I I wouldn't say it's bad, but Yeah. smells like a hundred-year-old
building that's been stuffed full of mil dewy books and non- elitist shoppers. Next time I
go there, I'm going to be like, really? Like the whole Yeah. The Well, the the the the lower
level smells bad and then the higher levels smell bad. the ground level. It depends on the outside weather, the
temperature outside. Yeah. I normally, the funny thing is, I think the last like four or five times I've gone to the
book loft, it's been raining really bad. So maybe that's why I didn't really notice it because it's like, yeah, it's
feels a little stuffy in here, but it's also, you know, pouring cats and dogs. Well, part of that is the area. So like
that that whole area is built on top of like a 85year-old sewer system. So good luck not smelling bad. So here's an
update. We're going to move on to the update. Wow. Um Nick complains that these shows are too long. Well, this is
why. So my paper here says August 18th, 2019 press release, which that cannot be
right because that would be yesterday, the Sunday. Ooh. Now, you know, we're recording this today on Monday. Um, I
believe this, well, this press release came out on Friday the 16th. So, my paper is wrong here, but the rest of the
paper is hopefully right, which I'm going to read most of it here. So, the press release states, a new DNA test
ordered in the 1987 Barbie or Barbara Blatnik homicide. Forensic genealogy team will use profile
in attempt to identify the killer. Now for our listeners, they will remember that we covered Barbie's case in July of
this year. Early July, which was episodes 316 and 317. And the ones that have heard those remember that this took
place in Kyhoga Falls, Ohio. The Kyahoga Falls Police Department and the Porch Light Project announced a new initiative
to solve the 1987 murder of Barbara Blatnik. On December 20th, 1987, around 10:00 a.m., the nude body of 17-year-old
Barbara Blatnik was discovered alongside O'Neal Road, a narrow access road that leads into Blossom Music Center off
Steel's Corner. Barbara or Barbie as her friends call her called her was from Garfield Heights and was last seen alive
the night before. She was dropped off by a friend at the corner of Warner Road and Grand Division in Garfield Heights
around midnight. Her injuries were consistent of being that of being strangled. Now, at the time of her
murder, Barbie's sister, Donna, who we referenced during our episodes and spoke with, was preparing for her wedding.
This is something I didn't know and I find interesting here because we we had the curious statement from her parents
saying, "Hey, Barbie called home saying, "I'm going to be on my way home soon." Mhm. So to expect me to be home that
night and then then she doesn't come home, then it's almost like it it's not like the murder
gets in the way. It's like she just decides to have other plans rather than coming home. So, we found it we found it
odd that she actually made that phone call and then didn't follow through. And here's one thing, though. We we brought
up speculation as to why that may be. And remember, this was near Christmas time. Uh it was on the 20th of December
that her body was found. We thought maybe there we knew that her mother and sister were going shopping the next day.
So, we speculated maybe Barbie wanted to make sure she wasn't going to miss out on something whether she chose to come
home that night or not or be out later than planned. But called to tell mom, "Hey, I'll be home tonight." And and
almost in a way of suggesting, "Hey, our plans for tomorrow aren't changing. I plan on being and doing whatever we're
doing tomorrow." So, we know her mom and sister were going shopping the next day
and actually unfortunately her father found out that that Barbie was killed while they were out on that shopping
trip and when they came home they found out. But now this information is just in
this little press release is interesting because says Donna was preparing for her
wedding. Barbie would have been her maid of honor. So, I mean, that even adds to
the level of sadness here. But, right, you you wonder were they out shopping for the wedding? Something that would
have been equally important to to Barbie. Mhm. Now, Donna describes Barbie as a beautiful young woman and a bit of
a free spirit. Quote, "She loved music," says Donna. Uh, AC/DC Led Zeppelin. She
once hitchhiked from Garfield Heights to Richfield to see Angus Young. She managed to work her way up to the front
row. And Donna goes on to say that Barbie is one of those people who could walk into a room and connect with
everyone. Now, this is this is okay. So, prior to this press release, the Kyhoga Folks Police Department asked
the Bureau of Criminal Investigation to conduct additional tests on DNA found under Barbie's fingernails to generate a
more complete genetic profile of the suspect. Now, according to Chief Jack Davis, quote, "As a department, we have
continuously looked at ways to bring justice to Barbara Blatnik and her family. Hopefully this partnership with
the Porch Light Project will bring us one step closer to accomplishing that goal. So what's the Porch Light Project?
Okay, so a very uh the Porch Light Project is a local nonprofit dedicated to funding new investigations
of cold cases that take place in Northern Ohio. And it's a group that I've been involved with. And in fact,
this is the first the very first case that the project or porch light project has assisted with. Now, um we did some
round and round about what case to cover, but this was the one that we ended up uh going to as as of course
being a nonprofit, we only have so much funds to work with and will probably they wanted me to be involved, but they
were afraid that it would generate too much money. Well, that's what I heard. that that's usually not the goal with a
with a fundraising campaign, but um the idea here is that we'll probably just take on one case at a time
uh to to get proper funding and to really get uh try to make things move on on the one case. Now, reminder, you can
check out uh project or porch light project. I always want to say project porch light. The porch light project.
Well, maybe that would have been a better name, unfortunately. If you do have any
information about the murder of Barbara Blatnik, you'll want to give that to the
detectives working the case. This is detectives Durker and Hirs, Detective Hirs at the Kyhoga Falls Police
Department, uh, Detective Bureau. Their phone number is 3309718334. So, interesting stuff here. Uh the Well,
it's it's great though to see Yeah. how many people you think are involved in this. Um about a dozen. Yeah. But it's
great to see people take their time and and their efforts to to further along these cases and not just, you know, like
you're not just we, you know, it's one thing to um I can't talk right now. It's one thing to shine some light on a case,
which we do and we try to do every week. And that's one of the things that we're
trying to bring to the true crime community and to the society is to go, hey, here's this case that has not been
solved yet, and can anybody help? And that that and that sometimes can do a lot. And that sometimes can generate a
lot of leads. We found that out when we cover cases and get, you know, responses
from detectives. thanks for covering the case. You know, we've actually been getting some leads, you know, and and
some of these cases, they don't they don't get leads for a long time. And so when they're covered by a show and
people start talking about it, they start getting some internet leads and maybe they don't go anywhere, but at
least they're creates some kind of traction. But then on uh you guys are taking it a step further and saying,
"Look, we can single out these cases and work on them one at a time." And and yes, it'll takes, you know, we might
have to generate some money uh to get more leads or to get more of a direction, but we're willing to take the
time out of our lives and actually do that. Yeah. In porch light project, we are paying for the independent test that
will be conducted in this investigation as well as the forensic genealogy team that will be not only you know they're
doing the genealogy part of the investigation. So that is where our involvement is mainly that's our the big
part of our involvement. Now um so these additional DNA test and uh the genealogical analysis will be conducted
by Colleen Fitzpatrick and her team of forensic genealogologists at Identifiers International. Now Identifiers
International has had success with these types of investigations in the past. Most notably in 2018,
they worked with uh Nevada with the Nevada Sheriff's Office, and this was from a case from 1982,
and they were able to assist in a couple of things. One, they identified a an unknown Jane Doe in that case. And then
later went on to identify James Richard Curry as the killer of that Jane Doe. and he is a serial killer that has been
charged with three murders. So, Identifiers International has had some s some success in this. Uh so, I'm very
excited that they are on board with this as well. And look, hopefully this is just the start of closing out some of
these old cases that these law enforcement agencies may not have the the time or resources to to focus in on
because they have new cases and other other things on their books. Yeah. and and we're going to have to get
some kind of a link or something set up on our website so people can check that out and then people that also want to
maybe donate to the cause can do so. Yeah. and anything helps. Um, again, we will, uh, now the thing with this case,
I do want to, you know, kind of temper everyone's expectations or excitement that they may
have for this particular case. And I don't, I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer. I'm just want everybody to be
realistic and understand the way that these things work. these types of investigations, it does not, you know, I
know that the Golden State killer got got quote unquote solved. You know, we're still waiting on a trial. Yeah.
Just because you've we've seen this in the news a lot. We need to understand that this is not 100%. Nothing's 100%.
Right? We you can't just expect that because we're doing this type of research and these type of tests and
analysis and and detective work that that her case will be solved just because you hear those magical words
genealogy, DNA, all that stuff. It's not 100%. And and from my understanding, the
the the most general outcome and results that I have heard over the years is it's about a 50/50
shot. 50, you know, 50% of the time it works out, the other 50 it does not. So, um, one, we got to keep that in mind.
And two, these things don't always end up being quick either. Probably the fastest that I've seen any of these move
would be the April Tinsley case where we can go off of law enforcement statements
and and know and understand that that whole thing was about a 4-month deal. That was about the fastest that I've
seen any of these ever move. from what I've been told in in my general understanding on how these things work
is it's usually more of a twomonth to two-year process. So, um quite quite a bit different.
Yeah. Yeah. Two month to to two-year process. I' not seen a case personally that that was resolved within two
months, but uh April's case was about four months. So, I'm hoping that this does move along quickly, obviously. And
um you know, Barbie's uh um you know, we know Donna's still around and and her family still wants and needs answers. I
also think that just you know, Northeast Ohio needs answers for a case like this
as well. And um hopefully hopefully we get something and when there is news, we will we will let you know. Well, every
like I said, everybody involved and everybody trying. Uh, that's a good thing and everybody should be proud of
themselves. So, we'll we'll get a link to that. Busy weekend as far as binging binging
the true crime. Mhm. Should get paid for binging. I going to start a podcast called Binging the True Crime and it's
just me. should get paid for all the the talking we do about some of the shows. Yeah, Mine Hunter
should send us a check. I guess in all fairness, John Douglas did come on the show. Yeah, that's something though. I
mean, there's a lot of shows he probably didn't go on. You know, I'm glad that you got paid. I didn't get paid. Oh, I
didn't. What do you mean didn't get paid? We We both got paid for the sponsorship that week. Well, right.
Right. But uh I didn't get to talk to John. So therefore, I didn't get paid. So if he wants to come on again and talk
to the captain, so I can get paid. That's right. You have an outstanding bill. Yeah. My bill is a lunch date with
John Doug. It's so funny. I still I think he would go to lunch with you, too. That's kind of the vibe I got from
him that he was like cuz he mentioned some um some festival or some conference thing that we we weren't invited to. We
didn't I didn't even know what it was to be honest when he mentioned it. He goes,
"Hey, are and that's why I jokingly say friend of the show John Douglas." I'm going to
say that forever because it sounds cool. But he, you know, after after talking with him for a while, he goes, "Hey, any
chance you guys are going to be at the blah blah blah?" And I said, "Uh, I I don't know why." And he said, "Uh, I'm
going to be there. Would love to uh sit around and chat with you guys." Yeah. Have a beer. He probably wanted to have
a beer. And I thought, [ __ ] me and the captain should just buy tickets and just
show up and go, "Yeah, we we were we were invited. We're on the panel." That's what we just say. That's that's
my line. Um, you know, going into bars for the last 20ome years of my life. All you have to
do is walk in with a guitar case. I'm with the band. Works all the time. So, true crime conventions, you just say,
"I'm on the panel." That's what you say. I'm on the panel. Which one? I'm an alternate. I'm an alternate. If
something happens this year, if Bob Ruff does not decide to quit drinking the night before, I will be the fill in.
Hey, listen. Bob Ruff, he quit drinking. He went to bed. He lost the drinking contest, right? That's the way it works,
Bob. And if you don't understand that, then you don't understand logic. So fess up that you lost. He's never going
to fess up. Yeah. Well, then I can't promote his show anymore because I don't want listeners to listen to somebody
with really bad logic. But um yeah, you just say you're on the panel. But this year at Crime Con, I tried to get in. I
left my badge upstairs and I was like, "Ah, I don't want to go back." Cuz I upgraded my room to try to
be fancy. But the room didn't get fancier. It just got higher up. So, I was like, "Oh, I don't want to go back."
So, I was like, "Ah, I got this. I'm just going to walk right up." Security is going to be like, "Hey, where's your
badge?" I'm going to be like, "Hey, I'm the captain. This is going to work." And
I walk up. I go, "Hey, uh, I don't have my badge, but I'm the captain. I'm supposed to be in podcast row." And the
guy goes, "I don't give a [ __ ] what you're captain of. You need a badge." And I was like, "Fuck." But, uh, yeah.
So, Mine Hunter season two, Thursday night, I stayed up pretty late and I made the mistake of checking to
see if it was on Netflix because it was technically Friday, right? No, you mean after midnight?
Yeah. So, you know, I was up watching some TV. It's past midnight. I went, "Okay, well, it's technically Friday."
I checked at like 12:20. It wasn't on my Netflix yet. I end up just again watching whatever
American Piccard or whatever it was. Checked again. It was uploaded. So now I was like, "Oh,
great. It's 1:30. It's an hourong show." So I I did stay up and watch the first episode. Mhm. and
then um and then binged the I binged everything on Friday, but I I binged a bunch of shows on Thursday as well
and I got so much work done while I was watching a show I was watching and because I kept on like every time like
uh yeah, every 15 minutes or so I like put it on pause and start doing emails and social media, whatever I had to do
And and so I was like I had such a productive day Thursday doing that that I thought, hey, I'll do that Friday with
Mine Hunter. But my thought was, you know, maybe I'll get two or three episodes more.
I just kept going all night. Yeah, it was very good. All night. Did you finish it? Mhm. Yeah.
See, I Okay, I don't feel like such a freak then. Yeah, I I finished it. I will say this
though. I I know I'm going to be watching it again. So, um I probably I I probably watch most of it with about
a 90 85% attention span. Uh or I mean, as far as paying 100% attention to each episode, I was not. Um
just like I said, because I know I was going to be watching it again and I had a little limited on time. So if if my
phone rang or if my uh you know if I needed to jump up and do something real quick, grab a beer, put some dishes
away, grab something to eat, I I I tended not to stop it and I just kind of let it go. All right. Right. Right. So I
I didn't see 100% of it. But So if you give the whole season and we're going to do a full recap, but I thought it was
better than season one. Okay. I see that it's different than season one. Yes. And
so, um, if I would say that if you're expecting really just a a a newer version with
different characters of season one, it is not to me it wasn't that anyway. It was to me it was much more of
Well, here's here's where I think what we should do is how about we talk about episode one with the warning that two
weeks from now we'll do like a full season recap. Yeah. Yeah. because that way there there are some people that
didn't weren't able to get to it, I'm sure, this this last weekend, right? And we don't want to go too far down the
road and this way they have a little warning. So, two weeks from now, we'll do kind of our take on the full season
recap. Well, yeah. And if you haven't watched season one and you know, full season two recap or haven't heard of
Mind Hunter at all, what are you doing with your life? Maybe you need to see a counselor. But
anyways, there's so many people that I'm like, "Oh," they're like, "What are you
doing this weekend?" I'm like, "Watching Mine Hunter. Is that show good?" Why would I devote a whole weekend to it if
it wasn't good? Mhm. I also had a producer friend of ours, uh, Emma, she was saying to me that, uh, the
interviews, I won't give anything away, but you know, just like in season one, they interview a bunch of killers.
season two, they're going to interview some more killers. She didn't like the interviews. And I was trying to explain
to her like the stuff she didn't like about the interviews. Like these are all these are all based off of actual true
events. Mhm. So like I'm sure they didn't just make some of the I mean I'm sure they made some of the stuff up, but
it's like you know you can't like Ed Keer's a talker. You know, you can't if there was a ever
an interview, which there was interviews in season one where the people didn't really want to talk too much about the
crimes. If that happens, you can't like fault the show cuz that's what happened in real life.
Right. Right. And and I I for me for me anyway, I wanted to stay as close to the
real deal as possible. Yeah. you know, you don't need if I if you want to just make something entertaining for me, I
can go watch Silence of the Lambs, right? You know, but this is this the whole idea of this is that it's a
dramatization of the real deal. And um I I hope I'm not giving too much away here, but but one thing that is learned
in season two is that that Holden Ford doesn't seem to enjoy the interviews as much as as what you know your friend did
or or um and and here's the thing too and we know this from our conversation with John Douglas. He said it in our
interview where where when asked, you know, what was one of the best interviews you did, he still says Ed
Keer and Ed Keer is one of the first that they did, right? And it's just because like you were pointing out that
each one of these killers, each one of these individuals are different. They're not a carbon copy of the last one that
you spoke to. So they're not all going going to be the same. They're not all going to be great. They're not all going
to be bad. And Ed Keer was just he's somebody with an extremely high IQ that was a wannabe police officer or law
enforcement officer. So So first off, you know, you saw it in season one with um shoot, I can't think of the guy from
from Illinois that uh killed all the nurses. You saw immediately with him, he had a strong distaste and and did not
like police, right? And so immediately he's standoffish and he's he's confrontational with Holden and Bill
Tench and where you saw the complete opposite from Ed Keer. Ed Keer Ed Keer respected uh law enforcement and and
wanted to be one. And you see just in the body language where Ed Keer leans back in his chair and he and he he folds
his legs and and he and he's speaking with his arms out and open and and just ready to tell them whatever they want
whatever they want to hear because he's happy to be one to be a part of the process and two to be a part of the
conversations that they're having. Well, and not to go into it too deep, I I think one one of the things that you
hear in Ed's speaking of himself is this self-reflection on what happened, why it
happened. I think he actually was diving into that himself. Uh, you see this with
Ed Keer, you also see this um I think with Dmer. Um, but some of these guys, they're just
like, I'm a killer. That's what I am. There's no rhyme or reason and they don't care if there is a rhyme or reason
where I think somebody like Keer with a little bit higher intelligence he's going well why did this happen were
there triggers that made me this way was I born this way and he was questioning these things too so I think one interest
you know being interested in psychology and then being interested in law enforcement and then what's the highest
level of law enforcement or crime I'm FBI and they want to talk to me and they want to dissect my thoughts and my
thoughts could possibly help them. Um, and and what they're talking about is not just law enforcement, but also the
fascination of psychology. So, I think it the reason why he's going to be the best interview ever is because of his
fascination with those two the those two aspects like a perfect storm. One thing that's
quite different about Keer as well is I mean he had already been institutionalized for homicide before he
went on to commit all these other other murders, right? and to to a point where he was being psychoanalyzed by by that
institution while he was there. And he would because he was obeyed the rules and was nice enough to the staff and
intelligent, they would ask him to do little task and chores for them. And one of those was transporting files and
carrying files and delivering them. and he would take the time to to glance them
over, to read through them along the way. He was learning a lot when he was institutionalized for the murder of his
grandparents. Yeah. And I think you know a lot of these killers and one thing that's so fascinating is some of them
who who hate police who hate law enforcement who hate the sentence and do not agree with where they are housed or
or the sentence that they received. Some of them will will talk in these situations just because they want to
know and understand why am I who I am? How did I turn out to be this way? What made me this way? Mhm. Keer is different
in a situation where he's telling them who he is and he's telling them almost why he did what he did because he's
already he's kind of self diagnosed right along that point. But I will say uh Richard Spec was the was the killer
from Illinois. Um you know uh I don't want to go into this too much but um we keep saying that. That's cuz we don't
want the episodes to be four hours long. Richard [ __ ] All right. I won't go into this at all
because I I feel uncomfortable talking about it. Look look him up uh not so much for his crimes. Look up his later
prison life. Mhm. It's a much different version than the uh than what you see in
season 1. And and mind you that is Richard Spec back then and exactly how he was back then in the 70s. Yeah. Yeah.
Look up look up who who he uh became along the way in his later life. It will surprise you. Um, or maybe it will. But
regarding uh uh back to Ed Keer, he is in episode one. Yes. Which was which was great. And um you know, they kind of
somewhat pick up where they left off with with uh Holden having a panic attack based off of that weird
uh interaction of him going to visit Ed Keer, which turns out to be we figure out in episode one that he wasn't Holden
Ford wasn't supposed to be there, right? That this was something he kind of went
off and did on his own. Yeah. Well, and you also kind of see, and I don't want to this not giving
anything away, uh, you kind of see with Holden, um, just the lack of any kind of
life outside of of crime. It's, you know, where last season he had this love interest and there was a lot of sex,
dirty sex. Now, this I don't think he um there's no love interest with Holden this this
season. Well, and you see this immediately in episode one and you saw it toward the end of season one. Yeah.
This thing is start and you know anybody that's read John Douglas knows this. This thing his work
starts to take a hold on him. Yeah. Where in season one, remember he wasn't in this BSU, this behavioral science
unit the entire time. He would start off as uh hostage hostage negotiations. Um and also he was in this is one thing
that they didn't go into in season 1, which I wish they would have. It would have it would have played better to the
the nerds, the true crime nerds, right? Um it might not have worked out so well for an entertainment standpoint, and I
think that's why they probably avoided it. But it's weird because it fits in with with the behavioral science unit
with the whole idea of it where where you are looking at a crime and trying to understand why
why the the the perpetrator of the crime did what he did during the course of that crime.
Well, to to just the opposite point of that was a he was involved in what was called at one time called the
crimesrevention unit. So they would very similarly look at things that would typically take place
in in the commission of a crime. It didn't have to be murder. And and actually in fact in his involvement it
wasn't murder. It was things like bank robberies, um stolen vehicles, things of that nature.
So what they would do in those situations is they would teach they were going around and teaching
uh banks how to respond and how to behave during the course of a bank robbery. So like they found that a large
percentage of the time a bank robbery that occurred during the business hours of a bank that more often than not a
note was handed a note was passed to the teller. Yeah. And the thing is they were shocked when they
learned that after they did all these studies because they would get to a crime scene and there would be no note.
So when they found out and figured out that the majority of the time if a if a robbery is committed during the business
hours there is a note that is passed they started teaching the tellers and teaching the bank managers don't give
the note back to the robber when you give them the money keep the note only give it back to him if he asked for it
because we could use that note to then try to find out who he is. you know, you can you could knock it off the table or
you could just not do anything with it. Just give them the money and only give them the note when they ask for it. And
so you can see the progression, the way that it would translate into something that we they later learn about
stranger on stranger crimes and serial killers. you can see how they start to apply those old thoughts and that
methodology to what they're doing now. And um so that that was interesting to me to see that they carried that a step
further in episode one where like you said he doesn't seem to have much of a life outside of his work. his work is
taking a hold as I believe it's as the work itself becomes one more intriguing and interesting to him but it's also
it's almost like this is kind of what he was maybe meant to do in a way and so I
think that that that's an interesting aspect of episode one yeah I I wish I could speak just to episode one I it's
tough to do because they all start blurring together. I I remember feeling after the first episode that it wasn't
like a It wasn't the thrill ride you were looking for. Yeah. But but the opening
scene was because Oh, that's right. The opening scene of season one, just cut off the show if you haven't
seen it. Um, this is literally the only like the first two minutes of the episode, right, of season one, a guy
shoots himself in the head. Okay, so that's what happens. And it's like, wow. I remember when when locked and loaded
when I first watched it. I'm not a gory type person, so that instantly it made me think this might not be my cup of
tea. And I was a little bummed out. within an episode or so, you know, within a couple episode, I realize
that's not that's not their play here. Um, you know, that it's going to be more of a deep dive into psychology and the
psyche of these these individuals, and that's the interesting stuff and which I was happy with. this season. I kind of
remember when I started the episode thinking because the trailer has a scene where there's just a door shaking
just with a door knob and I remember thinking I wonder what that is and so there's a scene that plays out and it's
funny that me and you talked about I don't want to give that away. Okay. I I just don't want to give it away. I know
we're supposed to be talking about season or episode one but it's all good. I don't want to give that away because
if somebody's like, "Oh, it's cool. It's cool. I'll listen." Somebody's right now
like thinking about turning it off. Like, I don't want them to ruin it. I'm not going to ruin this for you because
it's such a I think the opening scene is great because one, it's it's shocking. It's almost as shocking as like the
season one, how it opens up. Same type of thing. You kind of expect one thing. It happens differently. Um, I was
actually expecting something else, but when it happened, I I kind of laughed a little bit because I thought, "Oh, we've
been talking about this for a while." Um, off mic or on mic or both? I think a little bit of both. A little bit of
both. And so, just the fact that it that it, you know, played out, this season was really strange for me
because we've been waiting for season two for a while, right? Has it been two Has it
been It's been a full year and a half, I would say. I don't know offhand without
looking it up if it's been two years, but we covered so many of these cases. Um,
and so many of these individuals and then the ones that we haven't I've looked up, you know, by myself or, you
know, and so they're not bringing up anybody that I don't know. You know what I mean? It's not like I
think the first season they brought up a couple people and I went I'm not really
for sure who that is and then you know you look them up and and get to know them but this season was like yeah I
know all these guys and I know their crimes and I actually know a lot of this story. Mhm. Um
which made the you know some of this stuff way more interesting but it was it was kind of strange this this season.
And it kind of felt like the show is my life. Does that make any sense? Mhm. Like cuz
we cover cases every week and these guys deal with a lot of cases, a lot of killers and and what they have to think
about and and all that stuff and and it's almost like um I I know that I'm not these characters. I know this is not
my life playing out in front of me, but it's like so much of what's happening has been a part of our daily life
because we put out so much content uh that like it was kind of strange. Well, and I think a lot of that though too
comes from one case selection on our end. And you and I did have a a conversation that was, hey, not only
should we cover some of the the people referenced in season 1, but um uh you know, we mentioned talking about people
that may be in season 2, season 3, four, five, and so on. I'm hoping that they're
already filming season 3, which I don't know that to be true or false. I'm just I'm just guessing. And and I here was
kind of the shocker for me was when when the whole idea of Mind Hunter coming out, they said immediately that they
they signed it for two years, for two seasons, right? But then there was such a long stretch between season one and
season two. And look, I didn't want to tear through the episodes that quickly of season 2. It's just, as you said, I
feel like I've been waiting so long for it that it was hard not to do. And uh to
really really hone in on everything that that's covered, I I prefer to just do like a couple of episodes a night rather
than than marathon watching the whole thing uh in just a couple of nights. But um yeah, so it's it was season 2 I
thought was absolutely fantastic and fascinating and we'll we will go through it in in two weeks. Well, yeah. And just
a a side note, one of the things you're going to see in these, I think before they found actors that looked similar to
uh the killers and and did maybe little bit a couple things to make them look more like the killers. Um
go ahead. Go ahead. I got something to add to this as far as killers looks. But uh but this season they they took these
individuals and and what I was hearing was that some some of them spent six, seven hours a day in uh getting makeup
and getting prosthetics and getting little things uh to make them even look more like the individuals in
like the Manson interview and like the Burkowitz interview like it's impressive on how much
They look like the killer, especially Burkowitz. Well, I think Manson, too. I mean, now
now this is the same character. He plays Manson also in Once Upon a uh time in Hollywood. Mhm. He's the same actor that
And maybe I think he might have played Manson in some other thing because he looks a lot like Manson. No, I think it
was just that. Was it just the one? Yeah, I just couldn't think. We talked about that before. I couldn't think of
the name of of what it was cuz I had not seen it. Um, and and but what's interesting is that you know
what and once upon a time in Hollywood, I don't think they did any prosthetics and then you know so it's almost like
well we got the better Manson because we took the time to actually fix a couple of his features. Um, and and some he
looked a lot like um Charles Manson to me. So, as far we're while we're talking about uh the actors and the way that
they look, um Blue Bunny, it they they sell ice cream that you can get like Blue Bunny uh sundaes that you
put in your freezer. I believe the I'm not certain of this, but I'm pretty sure that the guy that plays BTK is also the
guy in the Blue Bunny ice cream commercial. H that'd be well it's funny because the the engineer that I worked
with for years uh uh I won't give his name but uh he looks very very similar to the BTK character in Mind Hunter.
Yeah. in traffic the other day. I saw um a guy in another car that actually looked more like Dennis Raider of,
you know, shortly after he was apprehended. Mhm. In 2004, 2005, whatever. So, he looked more like the
Dennis Rder of Behind Bars 2005 to me. But I thought I saw I saw like and it was one of those things that I was I was
listening to something. And I look over and I just very quickly nonchalantly went, "That guy looks just like Dennis
Raid or BTK." And I turned back and then I was focused in on what I was listening
to. And I was like, then a few minutes later I was like, I should have a stronger reaction to that maybe. And and
not only that, this guy should probably shave his his mustache just like the actor should shave his mustache before
doing the the ice cream commercial. He didn't shave it. That's what's so that's what's so funny about it to me. It looks
identical to the guy that plays B. It's not even like a like, oh, we had to do some makeup or really like, you know
what I mean? Like the guy could have just had no mustache for the for the Blue Bunny commercial, but at the same
time, maybe he was also in the process of of filming, right? Right. He couldn't shave it. He couldn't shave it, right?
He's like, I'm obligated to have this mustache cuz that's a that's a prominent mustache. That's not like a, oh, I grew
this over a week, you know what I mean? It's got uh it it's got some length to it. I see. Here's what I wonder. I
wonder if it took so long because of Jonathan uh Gruff, I think that's how you say his
name. Um, who is he? Fill me in. He's the He's Holden, right? Oh, okay. And the reason
why I I I just learned this and I'm sure like there's like Glee fans out there and musical fans. He's heavily into
Broadway and he was um big into Hamilton. He was played uh playing in Hamilton and so I think possibly the
reason why it took so long was Mine Hunter came out and he was already in these other projects
if that makes any sense. Mhm. And so I don't know if they then told him, "Hey, back off some of these projects so we
can get get some more work done." I'm I'm guessing they'll come out faster than every two years now. Uh and I'm
sure like Netflix why they're doing their new contract. Um they'll they'll make that stuff happen, but I think
that's why there was a delay. What what's this company called again? this Sunday company, Blue Bunny, and the uh
the Sundays that they sell look amazing. Now, mind you, it's the commercial. That's all I've ever seen.
And I got the coughs. Okay. Blue a bunny uh gets a brand update. Urgent. Let me watch this. It's a 30
second clip. Let me watch this. Blue bunny. Ah, it does look like him. Mhm. He's with some I'll tell you if it's him
though. I think it's him. Yeah. I wouldn't have brought it up if I didn't think that people would at least
agree they look like him. There's no denying they look the same. What what I can't say for certain is if in fact it
is the same person. Okay, hold on. Let me do Let's just do some little nerds. You wanted ice cream,
but you didn't want to put any pants on. Yeah. And now, like a month from now, my
whole freezer is going to be Blue Bunny sundaes. It's so I don't have to put any
pants on like the guy in the commercial. Yeah, I'm not putting any pants. That's
a good idea. I could end up with a Sunday, but no pants. Let's let me go back to the the cast real quick and
let's see if I can I want to get to the bottom of this is a crime that we don't know. Okay. Where
I'm going to throw this out there just because I thought it was interesting. Um Greg Smith is his name on the show. He's
the guy that they keep kicking out of the meetings. Mhm. Um of the BSI. You know how there's there's uh Bill,
there's um right, there's Holden, there's he's the he's the fourth member of there's Wendy. And they keep on
going, "Oh, we have a meeting. Greg, you can leave." Right. I think there's going to be more
to that story cuz and this is not giving anything away. I thought this was like a
bigger thing and everybody told me like it's not a big thing. But if you notice throughout season two, just kind of pay
attention to this. Throughout season two, he goes from thinking he [ __ ] the bed to there's a couple times where he
corrects people because he actually knows the information. And I wonder if that's going to play I again I don't
know the whole meaning Yeah. Greg Smith corrects people. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that I'm, you know, maybe it
plays uh into the BSI story of if you have guys like Holden and Bill going out and focusing
their attention on um you know, because this it's a new science, right? It's a new science of this criminal psychology.
But if you're going out and working on the on the Atlanta child murders or whatever case you're working on, you're
not focusing on the science. And so I wonder if that's going to play into the story later where somebody like
Greg is going to actually go, "Well, I actually know more than these guys because this is what I'm working on
every day." Um, well, okay. So, I I don't know this to be true. Um, and I don't know that we ever will.
Um, I think Greg Smith will is is the um is the movie version of Roy Hazelwood. That's what I'm starting to
suspect. So, Roy Hazelwood was a member of that team and an early member of the team. He went on to write a few books as
well and his expertise ended up being more on the um the sexual predator u end of of that
kind of thing. But there were other there were several other people that got involved fairly early that I imagine
once we get to season 3 we're going to see more uh people actually added to that unit. And so I don't know if the
Roy Hazelwood character will then appear or if that is in fact meant to be Roy Hazelwood. He Hazelwood was involved
early enough that I think that it may have just been a a very few people in that unit when he
was added to the unit. So that's that's my suspicion where so so his expertise ends up being like a sexual predator
type uh to to to these crimes. Holden, his expertise, his seems to be more the John Douglas um profile, right? A and
adding the thing that that's getting that doesn't stand out, I think, for a lot of people because people focus on
the interviews and the profiling so much. One thing that I want to point out is one of Douglas's
one of his areas of expertise in my opinion is he offers strategies for detection
which we don't we don't see our f we don't see us focusing on that as much which which is actually really
interesting to me. And then wrestler who who is Bill Tench. Um he he comes from a
military background before he got into the FBI which is interesting because you see that along the way in both seasons
where he he is he tends to be a little more focused, a little more straightforward and a little more
especially season one. He's more by the book than than Holden Ford who Holden's the new kid on the block. intent is kind
of the seasoned veteran who who like I said military background. Okay. So, uh Sunny
Valley, he's got like an Italian name, right? A valinti Cinti. He's got a cool last name.
Valinti. We just don't know how to say it. Sunny Valinti Cinti. I think that's how you say it. Anyways,
the funny thing about this this uh guy is that's his look. His look is a stash. Not beard, just stash and uh glasses.
Not always glasses, but like that's his look. Like there's a bunch of pictures of him
just rocking that look. And he just so happens to be the BTK killer. Uh and you you are correct. Boom. He is awesome.
He's the blue bunny guy. He is. How do you say that name? Val Valenti. Uh, Valley Centi. Valley. That's not right.
Val, it's definitely valenti. And you know what? Here's the thing. It probably has some cool like way to say it. Yeah.
Yeah. There's probably like a cool suave way of saying it that we're not we're not applying those techniques there
because it looks real cool on paper. I'll give you that. And I've always liked the name Sunny. Sunny. Yeah. Yeah.
It's a good name. Wow. But he appears very cleancut in some of these pictures. And then also like not Oh, man. You
wonder if the balding is is created by No, that's the Mine Hunter people. I think it's real. You think it's real
that he's really balding because he's in the in the commercial. It's that way. But in the commercial, I don't remember
seeing like the the the bald spot on the crown of the head. I just watched it. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Bald balding spot
on the crown of the head. anybody kind of p po p po p po p po p po p po p po p po p po p po pofos it up in the front
but uh do you think that they were in the middle of I think they were in the middle of filming Mine Hunter and he's
like uh can we hurry up and get this over with after lunch I got to go do this ice cream thing
can can we can we uh they might have done all of Sunny's scenes in and in in one day right but for look I've said it
from the beginning if they push it out time timewise Right. Timewise, you can push it out to season five. If there's
going to be five seasons, that's what I've read. You can push it out to season five if he is just the subplot for the
first four seasons. It is genius television best ever done it. Period. Goat, right? But if they screw that up,
it's not. Now, if you look look up Sunny, it just makes me wonder what they'll do with season five if you do in
fact do that. I agree with you. I think that's the best way to play it. Yes. But
again, they weren't heavily involved in the investigation in the B in specifically the BTK investigation.
They're going to pop in and out from it at times. Right. So, that's where I'm interested to see how they'll portray
that on the show. if they will just lie and if they portray real life or if they
portray that they were the ones that that cracked it that solved the case. And so if they if they portray real real
life then I wonder I I wonder what does that look like? Um maybe that's the crowning moment. Maybe
that's the the the end of days moment is the final sitdown of John Douglas and Dennis Rder once
he's behind bars for that lengthy interview which we know happened in real life. H yeah, that would be Wow. That's
what I'm saying. And if they do it correctly, it could be. And then they eat ice cream together after the long
without their pants on with they take off their pants and he's just got a whole he's got a whole freezer full of
these sundaes. But I want everybody to look this up. Sunny. Just spell the last name. V A L I. Yep.
C E N T I. But if you Valenti. Valenti. That's how I would go. Look, this guy's amazing actor. Sunny Valentini. This guy
is amazing actor cuz one super creepy when he's playing BTK when he's in the ice cream commercial. I
want to eat some [ __ ] ice cream. So you tell me who could do a better job of that. Nobody. Can't be done. Somebody
could creep me the [ __ ] out. But then also we'll get into that some more in two
weeks because there's a lot more to that. That'll be a twohour special. Uh, but look it up because there is a
picture that somebody posted. It is Dennis Raider on the left and he's in like his pajamas. It looks like it's
Christmas time and he's younger. He's about the same age cuz a lot of This is the one where he's standing outside. No,
no, no, no. There's uh he's he's by his daughter. He's like bending down. And he
has like his, you know, looks like it's Christmas Day in the family room with around the tree. Yeah. And he's like
bending over. But the the point of the picture is everybody's seen Dennis Raider, but most of the time you're
seeing Dennis Raider once he was caught. You don't see a lot of old pictures of him, right? And what they're showing is
look how close this guy looks to him. You know, he looks like he could be a relative.
You know what's so fascinating? And I they would they'd have to do it correctly.
But what's so fascinating what's so fascinating about this series to me is you take like the performance
of Manson and you could take that character, the actor that played him so brilliantly, and do some kind of a our
spin-off. Same way with like Ed Keer. Such amazing performance. You could almost do an hour
spin-off of Jess Keer. This performance that we're seeing from Sunny playing Dennis Rider is so brilliant. It could
be a a four-part series. You see what I mean? Like there's so much that they could do with this.
They're doing it so well. Anyways, we should just wrap it up because it's been uh about a million minutes. And so
anyways, if you if you you should get the point that we're excited about it and we want you to be excited about it,
too. We want you to watch it, have a good time, eat some ice cream. [Music] [Music]
[Applause]

Episode 69 /// Off The Record Episode: 69 Released: 8-19-2019 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com #truecrimepodcast #truecrime #crime #crimenews #news #truecrimegarage

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