Daviess County John Doe /////// 571 | Forensic Files

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today and Colonel that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's
talk some true [Music] [Music] crime [Music] in early January of 1990 the messenger inquire reported the
following with the headline at the top of page one announcing victim of brutal murder discovered the body of a man
beaten and shot with hands feet and teeth removed was discovered Sunday morning January 7th 1990 in South Davies
County Kentucky the public affairs officer for Kentucky State Police says quote it's absolutely a case of Foul
Play and whoever did this attempted to obscure the identity of the body they didn't want any fingerprints or any
identification from dental records it appears that was deliberate one trooper with over 15 years experience with the
force described it as the most brutal murder he has seen the Davies County coroner was at
the scene and judging from a preliminary inspection set of the body it appears the victim was shot at least twice and
severely beaten on the chest and head with a blunt instrument he said that there were no tattoos or identifying
marks on the body the unidentified victim was described as being white 25 to 35 years old 125 to
140 lb about 5' 7 in tall with collar length brown hair Kentucky State Police said a cadav dog trained to find bodies
will be brought in to search the area for the victim's body parts but would not say whether anything besides the
body was found at the scene police have no suspect specs he said police were urging anyone who may
have seen anything unusual or know of a missing person meeting the description of the victim to call the State Police
or the sheriff's dep department they would be keeping all calls confidential they
said adding that the description of the victim will be sent to law enforcement agencies across the country there is a
great quote that sums it up nicely by one of the officers in charge of the scene when asked to comment on the
murder the body recovery scene and the situation as a whole he simply said it's bizarre the Kentucky State Police said
that they would be pursuing all of the possibilities and quote it may just be a brutal murder or it could be a
sophisticated type situation but it is kind of an usual situation this is true crime
[Music] garage well Captain we are once again in the great state of Kentucky and here we
are talking about another unidentified remains that were found in Kentucky and I want to take it a step further than
what we did in the trailer so what you heard in the trailer there everyone is kind of pieces from the first article
that ever came out about this case and that would be from January of 1990 now the second newspaper article and this is
the same newspaper I don't know if it's the same writer or not but we have the same newspaper here and just on day two
I want everybody to kind of hear how the information has changed already now what
is stated in the trailer is based off of what they would call a preliminary autopsy and that's just simply that we
have the corner on scene where this body is found and located and kind of assessing the victim and the situation
as he or she would see it on the crime scene and then speaking with the newspaper this article comes out after
they've had time to actually conduct a proper autopsy so listen to how some of this information has changed
or or the variations of the information that we have in this case this article is written by Steve hunt and it's from
the next day saying the headline says slaying victim remains unidentified it says after an autopsy is searched by a
cadaver dog in checks of numerous leads authorities have not identified the mutilated body of a man found Sunday in
eastern Davies County the victim a white male this time we have him listed at 25
to 30 years old and now they know that he has been shot six times three times in the head and
three times in the chest with a 22 caliber weapon the victim also had been severely beaten with a blunt instrument
and his skull was crushed the autopsy did not determine what type of instrument was used in the blunt force
trauma the man's nude body with its hands and feet severed was discovered off of Pleasant Valley Road again that's
Davies County Kentucky police initially reported that the victim's teeth had been removed but the autopsy revealed
that the majority of the teeth were still intact of the 2,000 death investigations that this coroner has
worked he says quote this is the weirdest the victim is described as being about 5' 7 in tall 120 to 140 lb
with collar length brown hair I do want to note that I've seen on the internet captain that this collar length brown
hair even though it's reported this way in the first couple days I've seen reports
on the internet that state that it could be hair as long as 8 Ines so I don't know what the discrepancy is there but
it appears that this individual had quite curly hair and that will become obvious When anybody looks up pictures
of this still unidentified individual difficult thing about this case is the conflicting information online yes but
when they say this is the weirdest case I mean to me it's brutal and maybe possibly leans to more than one attacker
because how much damage was done to this individual and I think that the the suspicions that you have and that I have
really kind of echo what the officer was saying at the crime scene at the body recovery scene that very first day where
he says look this just might be another brutal murder or it could be something far more sophistic at we just don't know
it this time because we've not been able to identify this victim the article goes
on to say and this is the coroner's word saying that the victim's hands had been
cut off at the wrist and the feet cut off at the ankles and they were unable to determine the instrument or what
instrument was used to amputate the hands and feet by amputating the hands you're eliminating one of the
identifiers but by leaving the teeth then you could get identification through dental records yes and the
article goes on to state that you know the the sheriff the Davies County Sheriff at the time he's saying this
autopsy was very helpful it did answer some of the questions we have we now know a little bit more about the
circumstances not only how the victim died but what he may have been dealing with in terms of a perpetrator or I'm
sorry what they may be dealing with in terms of a perpetrator he declined to elaborate the the sheriff did of course
if this is sounding familiar to anybody we covered a case on episode 534 we titled that case man with no
hands this case is possibly connected to that one yeah and people are probably thinking hey this sounds familiar that's
exactly why because it's a very similar case where the man with no hands still is just that he's he's a man who has not
been named yet he's not been given his name back the rough found around the same time in both in the state of
Kentucky and we'll get into those kind of similarities and differences here in a minute they go on to say the state
police goes on to say in this article that that c the cadaver dog was brought in they were hoping to find the head I'm
sorry they were hoping to find the hands and feet somewhere at this scene and even with the cab dog nothing turned up
so somebody somebody dumped this body there and and were very aware and went out of their way to to not leave these
items behind so let me just get this correctly so we have multiple gunshots we have blunt force trauma to the chest
and head and then we have severed hands and feet yeah and so here's what I'm not
clear on and I was hoping to get some clarification on this and maybe we we will at some point it seems like the
Kentucky State Police are pretty tight lipped on this case and and I get it and I understand why I don't think that
either this case or the man with no hands are cold cases I think that they have the potential to heat up very
quickly and a lot of that's based off of Just science right obviously they have the DNA of the man with no hands and
they have the DNA of the Davies County John de right what you're hoping at least with that information that at some
point if we identify our victim that may lead us to one understanding the circumstances in how and why why this
individual was attacked or killed it also may lead you to a suspect pool a pool of people that would have been
close to this individual maybe they have criminal maybe there's a criminal element with inside that Social Circle
and so it could lead you to to the suspect just by identifying the victim here what's so interesting about that to
me and why I think that that's a very likely situation here Captain is that look at what the lengths that the
perpetrator or perpetrators went to to make sure that the person was not identified right and so it could lead
you right to the suspect's doorstep again the the weird thing here is I'm unclear about the the teeth right so we
two very different reports very quickly in this case where the day of they're saying look teeth were
removed this second day they're saying there were some teeth missing but there were not none of them were extracted
right so what I'm wondering if you look at where the blunt force trauma occurs on the victim here again they say chest
and head but to me the majority of it is on the face itself yeah in the face and
if anybody was listening to our show last week they know that that's important but here I wonder Captain if
the the teeth missing any of the teeth that are missing if they're simply missing because of the blunt force
trauma that maybe somebody didn't go out of their way to distract them the way that some reports have said here it's
just happen stance that when you are applying that force and that D doing that damage bones are going to break
bones will chip teeth will chip teeth will be knocked out it's difficult in in both of these cases to think that there
is a family out there that has a missing person in their family why hasn't this individual been identified and so by us
shining the light on it and being able to share this information and share the IM image of this victim that that maybe
somebody will come forward and say hey I I knew that guy or or that's uh a family
member right and the thing too you know they're going to do their work behind the scenes to process all the physical
evidence that was found at the scene this would be things like blood hair fiber samples bullets taken from the
body and that last bullets taken from the body is an interesting line there too because really looking at this crime
scene and and where they find the victim I'm guessing that any physical evidence
they have they're going to have to pull it from the victim themselves it it doesn't appear like this crime scene
will have a wealth of physical evidence it simply looks to me like somebody dumped this poor guy there covered him
up with some sticks and he's he's in the thickets I mean he's in the woods pretty
much and that I guess that's another interesting angle to this whole case when you look at it and it's something
that reminds me very much of the man with no hands obviously that we have a situation that it looks to me like it
probably would have taken two individuals to place this person where he was ultimately found and so while you
may only have one actual murderer you may have more people involved in disposing of this individual now the man
with no hands you know he's found in a barn he's 6'5 even even even on the short end of it they have him listed at
6'4 right I've seen him listed as tall as 6'6 but General consensus seems to be the man with no hands was 6'5 230 lb and
he's found inside a barn unless you had some tools or something to help you move
that person that's going to require two people to place him here now our Davies County John do he is significantly
smaller than the man with no hands they have him listed at approximately 5 foot 6 to 5' 7 in tall 125 to 140 lb so
significantly smaller than the man with no hands however given the lay of the land and where the body was found again
he's found in the thickets in the woods it looks to me like a good chance that somebody may have had to carry him a
decent distance from from the road we don't have any tire tracks that if if they do have them they've not said this
publicly that they have any c certain types of tire that they are looking for what information we do have that is
interesting to me is that the corner stating that we believe that he was killed within a day or a couple days of
being found so he's not the decompositions not extreme here if we were hoping to find tire tracks or if
there ever were any if anybody did drive off the road you would think you would be finding them given the short period
of time that elaps between placing the body there and then when these two Hunters are out in the woods and
discover this pile of sticks with the man underneath of it right but also if these cases were
connected as the murderer maybe you don't place this individual in a Tobacco Barn because you don't want them to be
connected right so let's take a look at that the Grant County John Doe if you if
you were to want to officially look up the man with no hands he's referred to as the Grant County John Doe we chose
this other name and don't attack us for it because we didn't come up with it it was actually reported one way at at some
point that uh a news Outlet reported him to be the man with no hands and that was
a very interesting title and why do you choose an interesting title well this guy needs to be identified and the more
people that are interested in listening to the information and looking up the information the better chance it is that
he gets identified right so that's why you roll with that so let's compare Grant County John do the man with no
hands to this Davies County John do the Davies County John Doe is found January 7th 1990 and remember it's believed that
he was killed shortly before being placed there we have our man with no hands is found April 9th
1989 so less than a year apart now they were found about approximately 185 5 to 190 mil apart when they're asked about
how bizarre this Davies County John Doe case and situation is you can almost see
it you can almost see it if you reading between the lines of their words where they're like yeah this is pretty unusual
this is very unusual they won't go out of their way to say it's the only thing we've ever seen like this no because the
officers at the same time they're at this scene and they're going wait a second where have I heard of something
like this before oh it was in our state and it happened less than a year ago where the hands were removed of another
victim yeah you'd have to assume that law enforcement heard about the other case you'd have to assume at some point
that maybe even those law enforcement agencies reach out to other people in the state for some help to possibly
identify the victim well and in both cases here Captain we got the state police that are called in immediately
right so it's technically belongs to the same agency you just have different posts that have these uh jurisdiction or
or or will be actively working a particular case but let's let's refresh the memories of the beautiful listeners
out there so when we're talking about the man with no hands again that was an episode we did last year November of
2021 episode number 534 the very basic General summary of the case and this is by the vicap alert that's on fbi.gov you
can find this on their website says on Sunday April 9th 1989 the victim's remains were discovered in a Tobacco
Barn in rural Grant County Kentucky it is estimated the victim was killed approximately 2 weeks prior the victim
was shot twice in the back of his head with a 22 caliber gun or sorry 22 caliber weapon is the exact words they
use here his hands were cut off and he was stripped of all of his clothing the victim had extensive dental work to
include a 10un porcelain fixed a porcelain to Metal Bridge with missing teeth replaced with porcelain pontics I
believe is how you say that for additional information and photographs regarding this victim refer to the
National missing and unidentified person's system namus database case report number
86 because of the extensive dental work I can't believe that this individual has
not been identified right that's that's always been a very troubling thing for me the first thought that you have in
this situation when somebody like this has not been identified you start to wonder has he ever been reported missing
has he ever been reported missing from anywhere I mean we went through our coverage of that case we went through
persons that would match his height that were reported missing in the months and
years leading up to it and we couldn't find anybody that looked like him we had some great listener feedback on this as
well and with this other case with the Davies County John Doe we hear the same thing repeated in
the Grant County case in the man with no hands case 22 caliber weapon weird right
I know that that's a pretty common caliber to to use and we we often will cite that on many cases that we've
covered here in the garage but interesting that the body's disposed of in a very similar
fashion and so much so that we're talking 30 years later neither of these individuals have been identified still
to this day and in both cases the same caliber of weapon is used and the man with no hands case shot in the back of
the head that seems execution style to me with the Davies County John Doe I mean it does seem a little different
right I mean it's we have the blunt force trauma along with six gunshots so a little bit different in that situation
but we have the same caliber the first thing I'm doing if I'm law enforcement is I'm doing a ballistic test to see if
those bullets match the same gun as the first victim exactly and the other thing
that makes this really interesting here too Captain is unfortunately 30 32 years
later neither these individuals identified yet but the work that Kentucky State Police have done on both
of these cases it they've done a lot of hard good work on these cases and that's
why I think that either one of them could heat up like that I mean at a moment's notice they could heat up very
quickly in both cases now as far as the Davies County John Doe goes we did have the officers pointing out very quickly
early on they're like look this is going to be particularly difficult to investigate because usually we law
enforcement police we have more leads to go on we usually have something to use as a starting point they're saying here
we don't know who the the victim is we don't know how he got here we don't believe him to be local we believe that
he was killed just days or couple days prior to being placed here but we have no victim name no no clothing nothing to
point us in any kind of Direction at all and one thing that makes this particularly difficult too is we found
this with the man with no hands at some point in their investigation they've not
released a whole lot to the public but at some point in their investigation they start kicking the tires on this
idea that well maybe this man was brought here maybe he was driven here from a great distance to be dumped here
we already know that they went to the extensive lengths of removing his hands well maybe they didn't mind driving
hundreds of miles several states away to dispose of this person's body now in the
Davies County John Doe situation they point out that the victim had a quote farmer tan well he's found in January in
Northern Kentucky in fact this is um I've never been to Davies County but it it's
directly below the Indiana border state line there he's found in January in Northern Kentucky
and found within a day or so of having been killed yet he has a farmer stand and so one thing that they did put out
to the public fairly quickly in in the Davies County case is based off of that information we're we're we're looking
for a breadcrumb here we are looking for a breadcrumb here we're going to throw this out to the public and say because
of this farmer tan there's a good chance he was brought here from someplace else
yeah unless he's a complete Weirdo And and wears his T-shirt into the tanning bed exactly exactly so that throws a
whole another wrench into this situation and we do know that they were putting out the victim's description across the
country they were looking for anybody that would vaguely match the description of this man this is also a tricky
situation I think for law enforcement because if you do a ify his family does this put his family either one of the
victims doeses it it put their family In Harm's [Music] Way this show is sponsored by better
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tablets is the number one heart failure brand prescribed by cardiologists and has helped over 1 million people with
heart failure it's a prescription medicine that treats adults with long- lasting chronic heart failure and works
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an ace or ARB don't take with Alice Kieran or within 36 hours of taking an Ace inhibitor the most serious side
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angio edema is swelling of your face lips tongue and throat that may CA death if it causes difficulty breathing get
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know where to [Music] go all right we are back to the windows to the walls cheers everybody cheers and make
sure you subscribe to the show that's right cuz we release shows willy-nilly whenever we feel like it you'll probably
miss one if you're not subscribing yeah don't be left don't be left in the dark that's right well here Captain we got
this weird situation when we left off we were talking about how law enforcement were working under the hypothesis that
the victim may be from outside of Davies County that may be driven there and placed there in this in this spot
however they also go out of the way to say that they believe that the killer was probably local or had some kind of
local ties based off of where and how they found the body meaning that they beli that somebody knew that spot that
they didn't just drive and at random pull over and place this victim there so that's a weird kind of angle to work off
of that the victim's not from that location but the Killer is probably local now we have brought up DNA
on this case and we know that that's going to be what will ultimately break this case wide open this situation in
2007 they actually identified the Davies County John Doe as a Scott Michael Morris so Scott Michael Morris went
missing from Indianapolis as a teenager in 1978 let me let's just think about that
for a second I I know we're throwing out a lot of numbers and a lot of locations
and information so gets a little cloudy sometimes Scott Michael Morris who they identified to be that of the Davies
County John do Cas soled went missing in 1978 from Indianapolis Davies County John Doe is found in
1990 in Kentucky 12 years 11 and change after this teenager went missing M I have a couple different reports here one
report says 2009 the other report says 2010 but regardless both have the same result
what they say here Captain is that further DNA testing I don't know how they arrived at the idea that this
person was Scott Michael Morris maybe some samples got screwed up maybe they were testing something else I I'm a
little unclear of of how they arrived at that conclusion yeah but we need to give
Kentucky State Police big UPS on this because I mean one of my favorite quotes is is an error only becomes a mistake
once you refuse to correct it and here they made an error they did not allow it to become a mistake because they did
correct it and they announced it to the public they're saying look whether it be
2009 or 2010 we mistakenly identified these remains they do not belong the body does not belong to that
of Scott Michael moris well one of my favorite quotes is um yes I believe in ghosts but more importantly I think they
should believe in themselves well let's not leave the listeners hanging here because that Scott Michael Morris angle
of the story is interesting in itself so just a quick little bad choice of words
when we're talking about a victim without hands just a quick little aside here as far as Scott Morris's case goes
it says here on the Charlie project website that Scott was last seen in his hometown of Indianapolis Indiana on
August 14th 19 78 he went to a convenience store down the street from his home and never
returned he was a frequent runaway at the time of his disappearance 3 days after Scott went missing he called his
family to say that he was working for a carnival in Pennsylvania in 1989 he called a family friend and said
that he was okay and still working for a carnival but would not say where the conversation was very brief and Scott
never got into touch with his loved ones again after that 1989 phone call to a family friend then we had the nude body
found in Davies County Kentucky 1990 was misidentified as Scott in 2007 the victim had been beaten and shot to death
his hands and feet were cut off and his teeth had been removed again it sounds like only a portion of the teeth were
removed and this according to the Charlie project says in 2009 was when DNA analysis proved that the dead man
wasn't Scott more so weird angle to that that story that he's misidentified the body's misidentified but then this Scott
Morris case is interesting in itself because he's a known runaway he called a couple times to let his family know that
he was alive in fact he calls the second call comes in 11 years after he goes missing at that point he's not a runaway
right he's never gotten in touch with his family again after 1989 and I've read several articles captain that says
that it's believed that he is is dead that he's no longer with us right and so I guess I mean that's certainly going to
make sense hell this unidentified body was identified to be him but um really I'm kind of wonder where this this Scott
Morris case goes now if anybody would have any information on the Scott Morris case you'll want to contact the
Indianapolis Police Department for that one at 317 327 6915 but we do want to point out here
based off of all the information we have and that we've seen and received it appears that Scott Morris wanted to be
missing or at least not with his family yeah but how bizarre is it that we have a situation where we think possibly
because of the distance because of the time because of the because of the way the bodies were found the the torture
that was to these victims you could make a pretty intelligent argument that they're connected and with the 22
caliber yeah then one of the victims is identified and then they go oops oopsie not not the guy sorry right it makes the
case even even stranger yeah and it's one of those things too that I wanted to make sure that we included
this portion in the show because of what if this Scott Morris guy is still alive
and well and he's fine right he's gone on and he's created a different life for himself living away from his
family we don't know why he left but obviously it we have the it's obvious that he did not want to be with his
family for whatever reason but at the same time as The Story Goes he reaches out at least on two occasions to go out
of his way to let them know hey I'm fine I'm you know nothing terrible has happened to me I wonder if this Scott
Morris guy is still out there if they're wrong that he's not dead has this information that he was you know
identified as this this body that was discovered in Kentucky if this information has just not reached his
eyes or ears for some reason because you have to wonder if he went out of his way
twice to let family know hey I'm alive and well right that if this information had reached him you would think he would
reach out one more time and say nope that's not me I'm not the guy that they found in Kentucky but he's not done that
maybe that's what they're basing off their statement of well we believe for whatever reason that Scott Morris is is
now deceased yeah or strange that there's no followup coming from law enforcement they're the ones that made
the mistake you think maybe at some point they go oh well we you know we did further testing and
we actually think we're wrong and on top of that we actually know what happened to Scott so I do want to make sure that
we discuss the discrepancy in the general information in this case just so that if this were to hit the right
listeners ears that they don't go oh they're not talking about a case that I know about so rather than rather than we
do not know what the exact information is what the most correct information is because we can only base it off of the
very limited information that has been released by the Kentucky State Police now we have it reported multiple ways
from different sources so we're just going to kind of give it all to you and you can sift through and find what you
believe to or or what is in fact the case here but this individual is still unidentified it's been 32 years it's
he's a male that was found in Owensboro Kentucky the age range is weird to me Captain because I've seen it fluctuate
quite a bit it seems to be it seems to be a very fluid situation with this man's age where he was listed at 20 to
30 years old then at some point He's listed 25 to 30 which is a nice tight window I like a I like a smaller window
so we're more specific here but now as it sits 32 years later the most common information you will find is that this
individual is estimated to have been 25 to approximately 40 years of age at the time of his murder he is Caucasian and
here again you're going to see a wide swing in the potential height of this individual where they have him as short
as 5 foot and as tall as 5' 7 and I know that the information that we read at the
top of the hour was was different 5' 6 or 5' 7 but as it sits today most of the information that you find out there will
have him listed between five 5 foot and 5' 7 weight seems to be pretty spoton they seem to be pretty convinced about
the weight everywhere I've looked it's all very similar saying 125 to possibly 140 PBS now this particular website here
has the postmortem interval listed at a little bit longer than what we've reported so far which they have it
listed as 36 hours to possibly up to 7even days that he was killed before being found I'm going to go with I
really like what I was hearing from the coroner within that first week right that first week the coroner's words
always were we believe he was he was only there for a couple days or had been killed a couple days before he was found
by the two rabbit Hunters well and I'm not trying to be silly here but it'd be tough to give a exact height because he
is missing his his feet right and and we don't know because I don't think the corer I don't think they released this
information on where where did the uh severing of the feet happened did it happen at the ankle did it happen a
little bit higher we're not really for sure the the early information was the ankles but again that's not something
that's like repeated over and over again so when you see that and you read that you go okay well I'll add that to my
notes and hopefully I get confirmation of that later and you don't you just don't get get confirmation of it later
right well somebody knows something in either one of these cases and again I couldn't even fault an individual if you
knew something and maybe you knew more of how and why they died you might feel like you're going to put yourself in
danger yeah and while we're on the topic of misidentification we should also point
out that very early on in the case and I'm sure the I mean the the police hate that this didn't work out because it
appears that they had or received some good tip early on in the investigation the way that it's reported is it says
rumors but I think that they received a tip here and maybe the tip was in a form
of a rumor but they're saying the rumor was that the body was that of a Whitesville Kentucky man they do not
name the individual but they did you know when we have a situation where they're not releasing a whole lot of
information they are quick to come out and say we looked at that and it's simply not true it's absolutely not that
person is what they state in the papers so another case of where they may have or at least on the public level there
were rumors of misidentification that this guy was possibly this missing Whitesville Kentucky person of course
these all these cases are sad all these situations are very tragic that we discuss here in the garage it's all of
life and loss of a family member a loved one but this is a little kind of extra weird angle that you don't get in other
cases that we do have here in this case and it's well I'll I'll read it for you it's it's nice and short but um sad
nonetheless the headline here Captain is funeral held for nameless victim and it
says seven people paid their last respects to a man they didn't know saying quote we moralize one who we know
not this came from the chaplain that led the services for this unknown individual
was a short ceremony that was attended by detectives and members of law enforcement as well as members from the
local sheriff's department it was also attended by the coroner and representatives from the funeral home
that that agreed to host this service for this unknown victim yeah and it's just kind of sad you know you see these
these people that that went out of their way and had big hearts and heavy hearts
and went to this service for an individual that they have never known may never know in their lifetime it's
been 32 years and he's not been identified but kudos to those people that went and paid their respects to
memorialize this this victim this victim of a very brutal murder very violent murder yeah I I'll be lucky to have
seven individuals show up at at my funeral en I'm going to show up with one of those uh Michael Scott fake heads on
my right shoulder so that will count as two I'll sign the book is two different people well maybe three people will show
up well should we get into some of the possible theories because there's been a lot of theories that have been discussed
over the years in this Davies County case and of course A lot of these theories are going to mirror that of
some of the theories that were discussed in the man with no hands episode I'll read off the list to you and we kind of
can go through them one at a time there was a a theory that it was a Satanic ritual and this is weird because this is
is rumored to have been reported that way by law enforcement so I don't I don't want to just throw that out there
and everybody goes well we've heard that a bazillion times this might be something different it might be
something a little more concrete a hate crime a Revenge killing a mob killing a serial killer and then I wrote down one
of my own which I know you will share in this idea too probably here two perpetrators two or more perpetrators uh
as a theory and I base that simply off of the difficulty of getting the body from however they transported it to the
actual physical location where it was ultimately found but let's Circle back to the top of that list there and we'll
start off with the Satanic ritual that's very interesting to me but I also want to throw this out there too look at the
time frame look at the the time period that when this body was found and with the amputation with the removal of the
hands and feet it's not uncommon for people to speculate that this could be something satanic but also it's 1990
right this is just shortly before West Memphis 3 and remember what was going on in this country at that time where there
was a lot of satanic Panic there was a lot of that going on that started well goes in the 80s and and throughout a lot
of the 9s especially when you're talking about crimes that were to be committed by young adults or teenagers I don't
know that anybody's expecting or suspecting young adults or teenagers to be the perpetrator or perpetrators of
this crime but it's always been reported that that was an angle that police were
working or it that they had stated that at some point again I'm just going to go
back to the idea of the amputation mixed with the time frame mhm I could see a situation where the
sheriff's department or somebody is saying that and then really wishing maybe a year or two or 10 years later
that they had never said that because it was just a suspicion there was no actual
evidence of that right you would think that they would have found something at the scene to indicate Satanic ritual
which maybe they did I mean they've been tight lipped about this this case for 32
years yeah could you real quickly remind me of the exact wording that he said law
enforcement said about this this case is weird did they say weird or bizarre yeah
the one officer summed it up simply by saying it's bizarre the other officer stated that look this could be just
another brutal murder or it could be a part of something that's much more sophisticated yeah so again I find that
statement those terms I find that bizarre because to me it's like this is brutal this is this is ome this is
violent these are the terms that I would be using when somebody starts saying well this is bizarre or this is weird it
it starts making you question what else was found at the scene or what other markings are on that victim's body that
we don't know so they one thing that we've not reported yet that is a very interesting angle in this case is that
seminal fluid was found on the victim and it was it did not belong to the victim so the weird angle that that
provides us is this weird situation of two things and this kind of goes to the hate crime Theory so it's reported two
different ways everywhere you go that it's suspected that this individual had some type of homosexual
encounter just before being killed and then other places it's reported as that he was sexually assaulted and then
killed which two of course are two very very different things which also leans to the idea of a a hate crime right so
if he if he himself were homosexual then then people are going okay well maybe this was some type of hate crime but
then you have the complete opposite of that that would say maybe he was raped or sexually assaulted before being
killed so he didn't have a choice in the matter right so it's all very bizarre where you think that that that one
element right there if they are able to decipher if they are able to figure out out the very big difference between
those two if they have evidence strongly supporting one over the other I think that that that's stuff that should be
released that's stuff that should have been released 30 some years ago if they could determine it back then because
we're talking about a completely different type of perpetrator in that regard well this this is stuff of
nightmares I mean if you're not getting up and locking your door right now you don't have a door
that's the only reason you're doing that and normally when somebody would bring up some kind of Satanic ritual I'm
normally H you you're going to have to sell me pretty hard on that yeah but well cuz we've been we've been duped by
that before right maybe not us personally but at least the public has has been fooled by that dozens of times
yeah fool me once shame on you fool me fool me never again um is it possible that some wackadoos are
out there uh praying to some Golden Goat and uh and they decide that there's this
ritual where we're going to take a victim and rape them and torture them and then dispose of the body there's a
lot of wackos out there I mean we got almost 600 episodes to prove that point and the the thing with the sexual
assault with the the rape that also would lead me down another Avenue of potential serial killer right because
and I only am throwing that out there especially at that time yes and we're seeing where there's another victim
that's disposed of in a very similar way and around the same time period less than a year between the two so the
difficult thing here with these theories is that you don't have really a lot of information to point you in One
Direction specifically you have a few different good ideas to work off of with these different
theories but nothing that will point you in a very specific direction that kind of leaves us with the idea of two other
possibilities here on our theories list Captain one being a Revenge killing and the other being some type of mob killing
yeah maybe not mob but some kind of organized crime see this is what happens when you don't pay your your your debts
off for gambling or or whatever or you you did something to upset somebody in the mob that you did something against
one of their family members maybe maybe this you know we don't know that the Davies County John Doe was a good person
himself we've not identified him yet to figure out what this guy was up to before getting killed right and we
always hear in these stories oh the colonel he was the nicest guy in the world nobody would ever want to hurt him
lies I'm telling you lies the problem the problem here is we know in the Davies County John Doe case at least one
individ ual wanted to hurt him at least one individual wanted to hurt him too so
and we know there's at least one individual that wants to hurt you there's a line man at least one the with
the mob thing usually I'm quick to kind of look away from that but when I'm when
I'm comparing notes Here on the Davies County John do in the man with no hands I really feel like there might be a
little something more to that and and a little more weight that we should apply to that possible Theory because it
wouldn't be terribly far to transport somebody to Kentucky from the greater Chicago area and there's you know
there's mob ties to every big city in this country the other thing too I know that I think this was brought up when we
discuss the man with no hands there's people outside of Kentucky don't know a whole lot about this angle but there was
a a very vicious group that was active years ago decades ago in that general area and they went by they were called
the cornbread Mafia which sounds like a a funny name but yeah read up read up on
them and you won't be laughing very long but one angle that I do want to point out here this kind of reminds me
let's pretend here for a minute captain that these two cases are connected okay my guess here is if we went into the
history of other states to find unidentified individuals we might find cases that are somewhat similar to these
two kind of where I'm going with this is it makes me think of Richard klinsky and
I'm not saying that Richard klinsky killed either of these individuals what I'm saying simply is
that watch The Iceman tapes this is this is one of the documentaries that we discussed years ago you know every every
year or every so often we pick our favorite true crime documentaries and create those list and I think it was the
first first time that we discussed this Captain one of the documentaries on my list was the Iceman tapes and this the
Iceman tapes is originally from 1992 I believe right so of course he's locked up I'm not saying that he had any
involvement but the thing that you picked up on with Richard klinsky was he's a guy that he's working in
organized crime and he is the he is the Hitman well why is he the Hitman because
this is the type of dude that if somebody wasn't paying him to kill people he probably would be doing it for
fun right he's he is the psychopath in that group in that criminal element in that group he's the guy that they know
go to him because he doesn't have a problem offing these people and then the other thing too is he talks about how he
would dispose of these bodies and something very simple right keep it simple stupid one thing that he pointed
out there he's like look I use this method to I often use this method to kill an individual but I also used this
method over and over again to dispose of of the individuals well why did you continue to use that that method to
dispose of the individuals and he said he looked at the the interviewer like they had two heads like they're moreon
he says he looks at him Michael Scott because it worked it worked when I did it and it worked the first time when
they had trouble identifying my Victim or didn't find him for months or even years I just went okay next time off
somebody I'm going to use that same method because it works one of the things that I think about in both of
these cases maybe they're severing the hands not to get rid of that identifier but to make a statement
because back in the day if you stole something they would cut your hands off or cut a hand off or chop your fingers
off so maybe that act of of this crime is actually more to send a message to people yeah it's very interesting to me
and I think you might be on to something there Captain because we have other identifiers that were not they didn't go
to other measures to keep this person unidentified right with the man with no hands he's got extensive dental work
expensive extensive D dental work say that three times fast I will try somebody could have could have taken
that stuff removed those items to make it so he couldn't be identified remov the head if
you really if you were really dead set on on making these individuals not identified at all there are other
extremes that you could go to but whoever killed and then disposed of these individuals didn't go to those
other lengths for whatever reason they didn't take those other precautions if you will but they did remove the the
hands in both situations and the other thing too like I got to thinking about like well they went out of their way to
remove the feet of the Davies County John do but I don't ever remember a case of an individual being identified by
their feet right right I mean you're leaving his DNA CU obviously his whole body the rest of his body is there the
feet thing really makes me wonder what was up with the feet why go out of your way to remove the feet well if we go
back to the original IDE a that a lot of these steps were taken to prevent the identification of this victim well could
the foot for whatever reason one or both of the feet have some kind of identifier
maybe this individual didn't have normal looking feet maybe there was a tattoo on
one of the feet maybe you know you you use your imagination and you can start to see a situation where that might
become important but it doesn't appear to have been important in the man with no hands case that took place in 1989 if
you're a bing man and I I know you like to bet every now and then uh on the horse I like people say that uh if
you're a betting well I have you happen to be talking to a betting man so so I am a betting man but we won't say it's a
a problem it's only a problem when you lose if you're a betting man would you say that these again the two weeks in a
row it it's funny how this stuff works last week we're talking about the Boardman murder cases and if those were
connected uh similar time periods similar area similar similar victimology here the victimology seems different
but do you lean towards them being connected or or not connected I actually lean towards them being connected and
usually I and I didn't go into it that way right I didn't go into looking for reasons to connect these and I'm going
to say straight up too that I didn't find anything that that says to me 100% that they are in fact connected but it
just seems a little convenient a little too convenient to me that yeah the victimology is weird with the Davies
County John de we have so little information and again reported different ways that I don't believe that that
allows us to really hone in on one particular thing here to say that I think the victimology is similar or
dissimilar because with the man with no hands according to the vicap alert from the
FBI his approximate age is 25 well that certainly fits within the age range of our Davies County John Doe where we're
seeing the current information has him listed at age 25 to approximately 40 I have a difficult time with why that that
range is so that there's so so many years applied to how old this guy could possibly be
they're both found nude they're both found with no hands they're both found within a year of one another in the same
state of Kentucky and for me there's just too many similarities for me to to get past it right if again you're asking
me to wager on something we don't have a lot of information on I guess if I had to go gut feeling here I'm guessing that
they would be I would lean toward them being connected in some form and it doesn't have to be committed by the same
perpetrator especially if we're talking about um some type of mob hit or some type of criminal group you know I I had
really suspected a a drug connection with the man with no hands and then with the Davies County
John do I just feel like I don't know enough about who this person could could have been to even
hypothesize what led to this yeah if I had to go with my gut feeling um gut and butt feeling I would say connected it's
it's eight months between the discovery of two of these bodies and I know yes it's 140 mil away so a big distance
there but eight eight months is tough to shake I wouldn't lean so much of a mob hit but to me kind of seems serial
killer in the sense of well I put one victim here and then I and then I dump another victim somewhere else and I
think if we dove in deeper to that area probably let's say a 300 mile radius to see if there's any other similar
cases those in individuals might have already been identified but to see if there's
anything similar um severing of the hands or severing of the feet or the way in which the bodies were dumped with the
man with no hands case I know that a lot of the listeners got on the blog and stated on there that that one hypothesis
they would have is that maybe he was an undocumented worker someone that we just
don't have right information of and that's why he remains so difficult to identify to this
day his ethnic background would have been based off of I think this was parabon that came out with the man with
no hands but some agency has stated that he's probably Eastern European maybe Middle Eastern descent for the man with
no hands I've not seen any of that speculation or or information in the Davies County John Doe but where I can
offer a little bit of a little little light at the end of the tunnel for both of these cases is we know one
thing with the man with no hands obviously they have his DNA they're working that they're trying to figure
out if they can identify him using the DNA I seen that last year it was reported that the DNA do network was
actively working on the man with no hands case it was one of I think five or six that they were discussing on the
news at the time and he was one that they were actively looking into the basic report that they offered at that
time was that we are getting closer to identifying him we have not been able to get a match to an individual and
unfortunately in his case we've not been able to get a match that's close to an individual meaning they've not matched
up with a parent or a sibling they said that they're they're basically at the the speed bump of we can get we feel
like we're getting to distant cousin level with the man with no hands but nothing close enough that we have any
idea of of possibly identifying him or narrowing it down to a few individuals now with the Davies County
John do with our case for this week the light at the end of the tunnel with him is
twofold you have not just your victim DNA like we have in the man with no hands case right we have potential
suspect DNA and again that's why part of me wants to go can we clear this up if we
do know maybe they don't know and maybe that's why you don't want to release this information if you don't know it'
be irresponsible but if they do know if they had some way of determining this sexual assault versus
consensual well if especially if it's sexual assault then that changes everything for me because now that goes
from a possible you know friendship or Romance with this other DNA that they have with the Davies County or it's
suspect DNA and so that's the light at the end of the tunnel in the Davies case that
one we could identify this individual possibly we have the science to do it we're working on it we know that they're
actively working it because they misidentified him and then cleared it up so we know that it's been active at time
periods throughout the last 32 years it's a case that's still on the minds of Kentucky State Police they're probably
still doing work on it and so we could have a situation very soon where either they identify one the victim
himself or the suspect in his case and either way is a huge leap when they were when they were scratching the
ground looking for breadcrumbs before identifying this individual or the DNA that could lead to the suspect huge leap
huge break in the case either [Music] way there is a tip line a tip phone number
for the Kentucky State Police if anybody has any information in the Davies County
John Doe case or the Grant County John do case the one that we were referring to as the man with no hands you can use
this number for either of those cases and again this will take you to the Kentucky State Police the number is 1
1800222 5555 want to thank you so much for joining us here in the garage we just
like your smell we like your musk make sure you tell a friend we want their musk to be in the garage as well colel
do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful people this week this week and this is very fitting to this week's
case as well we are recommending a book called The Lost family how DNA testing is upending who we are author Libby
copelan does a deep dive into the subject and a deeply reported look at the rise of home genetic testing as well
as looking into genealogy Buffs the science of DNA and The Business of companies like ancestry and 23 and me
make sure you check out the lost family by Libby Copeland you can find that wonderful title and many more on our
website true Crim garage.com another thing you can find at the website is a link to off the Record that's our bonus
show we do case updates we get a little silly up here in the garage it's a great
time please join us it's $5 a month you get every show on Stitcher premium which
is tons of content for $5 a month you can find that at True Crime garage.com until next week be good be kind and
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Daviess County John Doe /////// 571

Part 1 of 1

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In January of 1990 the body of a man was recovered from a wooded area in Daviess County Kentucky. It appears the killer or killers went to get lengths to make sure that this victim would not and could not be identified. Advances in DNA technology have certainly change that. Join us for a case that for our longtime listeners will sound hauntingly familiar. Trust us when we say, you will want to tune in for this one.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the brutal murder of an unidentified man in Kentucky, exploring crime scene details and potential connections to another case.

Key points

Brutal Murder Discovered. A man was found beaten and shot, with his identity obscured.
Unidentified Victim. The victim was described as a white male, 25-35 years old, with severe injuries.
Possible Connection to Another Case. The case may be linked to a previous murder involving a man with no hands.
Unidentified Victim's Tragic Story. The ongoing mystery of an unidentified victim raises questions about their past and the investigation.
DNA Testing Breakthrough. DNA testing in 2007 revealed a misidentification in the case of Scott Michael Morris.
A Sad Farewell. Community members gather to honor an unidentified victim of a brutal murder.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's absolutely a case of foul play.

Kentucky State Police officer commenting on the murder case.

5:18WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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Daviess County John Doe /////// 571 | Forensic Files