Amy Bradley /// A Cruise to Nowhere | Forensic Files

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>> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host Nick [music] Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to
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>> Welcome to True Crime Garage. This is Off the Record, putting it on the big feed for everybody's earballs to listen
to and love and enjoy. And we have a friend of the show joining us once again here in the garage. A man that is no
stranger to the garage. And in fact, a person that we've leaned on heavily when we take a look at this case. This is the
missing person's case of Amy Bradley. And many of you will know that from our episodes that we did with our guest
today. That was episodes 862 and 863 on your true crime garage radio dial and also from the documentary that was on
Netflix. Well, James Rener is joining us here once again in the garage. She is the author of some of your favorite true
crime books and the author of the book that is coming out July 28th regarding the Amy Bradley case and it is titled A
Cruise to Nowhere: How I Found Myself While Searching for Amy Lynn Bradley. James, thank you for joining us here in
the garage today. >> Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a while. It's been a while. I still
remember uh when when you guys were like teenagers and we we we taped that first
show in some uh abandoned factory in Columbus. >> We all hopped on our BMX bikes and met
up at the uh garage and and did did a little recording. It feels like almost a lifetime ago the first time that you
were on the show. But to bring everybody up to speed here, for those that are unfamiliar with this case, this case has
attracted a lot of eyes and ears over the years, over the decades, especially within the last couple of years. And I'm
sure that your book is going to continue to intrigue people and probably inform people a little bit more because when
the Amy Bradley documentary came out, Captain James, tell me if you had a shared experience. There was more than
one establishment that I walked into, overheard people, it was a very popular documentary, overheard people talking
about the case. To many of them, it was new to them. I had remembered seeing the
datine or the 2020 or whatever it was years ago. So, and I I almost felt like the original coverage on it was more in
depth in a different way than what the Netflix was. And but the the response I was getting and hearing from these folks
is that they found the case to be very intriguing. They found the documentary to be enjoyable and interesting, but
they also thought that it was leaving a lot out. And that's why I was so excited
to hear that you were writing a book about the case, James. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it did leave a lot
out. I mean, it's it's hard. The Amy Lyn Bradley case in some ways like the Moa Murray case is endlessly complicated and
you can there are so many tangents that you can go down and talk about and they just weren't able to put it all in, you
know, three episode, you know, miniseries on the case. Um, now I I had about 350 pages to play with. So I got
to go into some of that stuff that that was lost. And um for instance, you learn
a lot more about uh the brothel in Kurissau and Margarita Island. And there's this whole other story about
this guy named Frank Jones who um was a con man who conned the family and a missing person's fund out of like over
$2ome,000. So, and he ended up going to prison for it. And you didn't get that in the the
documentary series either. And you know, I I also spoke to a lot more people than
than the documentary got to and including witnesses, including friends and former partners and yeah, so there's
it's quite comprehensive, I think. And the case is, for those who are unaware, in March of 1998, the Bradley family of
four, this is Ron, Iva, and their children, Amy, and Brad, boarded the cruise ship Rap City of the Seas, for a
week-long Caribbean vacation. This trip was to be a chance to celebrate two recent family milestones, Ron's success
at work and Amy's college graduation. In the early morning hours of March 24th, Amy, a pretty, athletic 23-year-old,
returned to the family stateroom after dancing at the ship's nightclub. She grabbed a blanket and went out to sleep
on the room's private balcony. A few hours later, her father awoke to find her gone. What happened to her remains a
mystery and that mystery consists of a lot of different possibilities here. Did Amy jump? Did she fall into the water?
Did her sexual orientation have anything to do with her vanishing? Did the cruise
ship officers botch the initial search during the first critical hours? Did Amy voluntarily disembark at Carouso that
morning? Was she smuggled off the ship against her will and trafficked in one of the islands brothel? Amy Bradley's
now been missing for close to 30 years. Her family and many others suspect foul play. This is a a case that the FBI,
for reasons that are easily understood, got involved in because this is a disappearance of a young American woman
in international waters. I don't think we talked about this in our previous episodes because we we we really stuck
to the case and not so much about a pending book, but through conversations, you know, we're we're we're privileged
enough to be friends, the three of us, and hang out and have conversations that are not all on microphone. And when the
announcement of the documentary was coming out, we had a conversation. and you said, "Well, the crazy part of that
is I've been working on this story." I think the documentary had its own complications for you.
>> Mhm. >> In regard to your book, but what was sort of the genesis of you wanting to
look into the story because it wasn't brought on by the documentary? >> So, I I was lucky enough to be in a
position where I had a uh book contract with um a publisher and I I owed them a new true crime book. And so I would, you
know, it's such a wonderful, [laughter] you know, chance, you know, after so many years of hustling to be able to sit
there and think, okay, the next book is guaranteed. What the heck do I want to write about? So I had a I kind of had a
short list of stories that I have thought about turning into a a book over the years. And you know, when you're
looking for a true crime story to devote, you know, a year, a year and a half to two years of your life to, you
want something that uh is is big, you know, and something that people kind of already know about, but one that there
isn't a book already written about, and those are very few and far between. Um, I was I took a hard look at uh the the
Springfield 3 case, and I thought that that was going to be the book. Um, I even met with one of the girls surviving
parents. They it seemed they were on board, but then one of them got sick and it it just didn't work out. So, I looked
at some of these other cases that I'd already kept on a list. And one of them was Amy Lynn Bradley and I reached out
to the family through the website. And later that night, I got a call from Iva, uh, Amy's mother. She said, "Hey, how
you doing? You know, you want to talk?" And that led to a Zoom call and then that led to an invite to come out to
visit them at their home in Chesterfield, Virginia, which is outside Richmond. It it it went very well at
first. I had started to interview some of Amy's friends and that's when I started hearing, "Oh, hey, um, we just
talked to Netflix." And, uh, I was like, oh, interesting. Um, so that's how I learned that there
was this documentary being made and you know saying it was it's technically not Netflix. It was their you know this
production company that had a deal with Netflix and I was in early contact with one of the um producers on the show on
the on the documentary and that relationship was really good at first. we I I shared some information and so
did they. And um but then at around the same time uh both uh myself and the documentary people discovered that the
secret which is uh that Amy Lynn Bradley was gay and that that hadn't been talked
about since you know all these years since her disappearance in 1998 and that there were former partners of hers that
really wanted to talk about it. a woman named Cat and a woman named Molly. And so there was going to be conversations
with the family because they would have to, you know, we'd have to give them the
opportunity to talk about this and to let them know that we know this. I was I had the interview with the family first.
Um I think they had already talked to them, but not about this. And so when I went out there, uh, I sat down with Iva
and Ron, uh, Amy's parents and her brother Brad. We had this, I think it was like f around 5 hour interview. And
I asked them basic background questions first. I wanted to to get all the basic stuff out of the way. And then we broke
for lunch and Iva made uh pulled pork sandwiches that were delicious and you know potato salad, all the fixings. And
after lunch, you know, I came around to asking those questions and I said, "Hey,
I I've I've spoken to Molly. Um she's going to be included in this book and you know, I'll have to talk about the
fact that your daughter was gay." And the there was an immediate change of demeanor.
um this this openness and uh you know attention that I felt vanished. Um Iva was pretty upset and said that she
didn't think it was anybody's business, had nothing to do with anything. Brad, for his part, I I will say spoke up and
said, you know, "Hey, Mom, you know, maybe it is the time we talk about this." Uh you know, and he he said if
she was around today, he would assume that she'd be with a woman. and you know maybe it is time to talk about that. So
you know Iva was upset. She's like and and you know she was upset that Netflix knew about it but hadn't asked her about
it yet. She said you know Amy's not here to defend herself and you know that uh you know we just went back and forth on
it for a while. She said why why didn't Netflix talk to me about this before you
came up? And I I said, "Well, yeah, I can't speak for them, but the reason I I didn't ask you these questions until
towards the end is because I'm afraid that I'm going to lose you as a source." And she said, "No, no, no. She's you're
not going to lose me. You know, we're doing this for Amy." And um you know, 3 days later, she sent me a text that just
said, "I can't help you anymore. We're done." So, um, uh, yeah, that's the last I've I've talked to Iva. But, uh,
unfortunately with the ne Netflix thing, you know, that definitely soured my relationship with, uh, Netflix as well,
because I think it made it very difficult for them to then, uh, talk to the Bradley's about that same um, uh,
same thing. But they did manage to get them on camera talking about it. >> Well, that always becomes a difficult
thing. These family members want attention for the case, but they can't control the complete narrative.
>> And I don't think that's fair to the victim. It's not fair to the case because if you don't have all the
pieces, then we don't even know what kind of case we're looking at. >> Correct. Yeah.
>> But you're in a very unique situation because you go, I'm going to work on this case. I'm I'm going to try to write
a book about this. I have inside sources and now I don't. But then the documentary comes out. What was the
initial reaction as you're watching the documentary? Because at this point you already have a great deal of research
done. >> Uh, a couple things. I I thought they did a fine job for for what it was. I
mean, it's a it's a complex case and they were able to break it down pretty succinctly. Um, there was a lot left
out. You know, I I think there was too much of an angle and a push to suggest that Amy had been um trafficked in the
Caribbean uh into the sex trade in the Caribbean where there's no evidence to um to suggest that. And I, you know, so
and I don't know that they even believe that. I mean, you'd have to ask them. I I can't speak for them, but it would
surprise me if they really in their hearts believe that that's what happened to Amy because I think anybody that
takes time to really delve into this case will see how very unlikely it is that that that's what happened.
>> When you say they, do you mean the persons putting together the documentary or Amy's family or both?
>> The documentary, I can understand why Amy's family would would want to believe
that. It gives it it gives hope that she that she could still be alive after all
this time. But the documentary people um knew better and uh should should have been smart enough, you know, to to see
that. >> Back to the question and talk of her sexuality. It's I mean Amy I'm not going to pretend
to know everything going on in her world at that time but it from what I've been
able to follow in this case it appears that she was out or somewhat out at least to some degree when she goes
missing in 1998. >> Yeah. Uh I it was a difficult discussion for her. So I and I you know Cat talks
about this because she was there when it happened. So Amy and uh this this woman
Cat were in love in college and you know shared a dorm room for a time and they had kind of kept it on the down low. Um
but then the secret came out in an interesting way. Um Amy had called the dorm room and left a message and Cat
came in with another one of their friends and checked the message and it's Amy talking to Cat and she says, "I love
you." And uh and the other friend's like, "Whoa, what?" And and that's kind of how the secret came out there. And so
that night, I I think it was that night, they ended up telling all their friends
there. And their friends were very supportive and they realized they had to tell their parents and Cat went home and
talked to her family and they're like, "Okay." You know, and Amy went home and talked to her family and it did not go
well. Um her father, Ron, according to Cat, wrote a um several page letter on yellow legal note not notebook paper um
talking about how disappointed he was in her. That made Cat feel very very bad for a while. And you know when talking
with the Bradley's you know they really try to stress and make a point you know when we talk about Amy's sexuality
they're like Amy was by she she dated men too she was by that is not how Amy identified uh according to her friends
and the people that knew her closely and well she identified as uh gay uh queer lesbian and she was she was frequenting
lesbian bars and in in Richmond had been for years and that's where she liked to
hang out. Um, so in her mind there was there was no question about her sexuality, but she did occasionally have
a boyfriend that according to Cat that uh they both had boyfriends that they would have to kind of let you know so
their parents would think that they were straight. And there was a boyfriend uh towards the towards the time of the
cruise that uh Amy was seeing. He was older. He was uh worked at [clears throat] the same restaurant as
she did. they they had seen each other and and had been intimate and um you know she had um were she was kind of
ending that relationship because she was getting back together with with Molly. So and during the course of that
relationship she was still trying to you know get back together with Molly. So, you know, it it became apparent to me
after speaking to her friends and getting the timeline straight when Amy was on that cruise in March of 1998, she
had a big decision to make when she got home from that cruise, and that was either to live her true life, the life
that she wanted, to be open and out, and to be with Molly again, or to deny that,
to mask, and to keep things on the level so that her relationship with her family
didn't suffer for it. So that's what was awaiting her. I can't imagine the level
of stress she had thinking about those things on the on the cruise >> because those both of those choices
you're at a crossroads and both of those choices don't come without consequence.
>> Correct. Yeah. It's kind of a no- win. You're going to lose somebody or at least I I don't think she really would
have lost her family. I think eventually they would have come to >> I hope understand and accept. I do think
they have have that capability but it would have been rough. >> And she was I mean everything we could
see she was close with her family just because it not seeing eye to eye on this or maybe hesitant to believe or don't
want to believe. But I say she was close with her family but it seems like her and her brother were super tight like
>> like some of the best of friends at times. >> Yeah. I think the whole family was like
that that the parents were really um the relationship was was more like a a good
friend. You know, they were certainly, you know, parental, but you know, they'd hang around, drink, and play cards, and
they just love to be with each other. And the the family has this um ability, especially Iva, uh where she if she
likes you, she pulls you in close. And I got a I got a little taste of that. And
you know, when she invited me to the house and I show up, I I brought flowers for her and um you know, she she brought
me in and she said, "Look, I don't invite anybody into this home that I don't love." And I was really touched by
that. And then five hours later, [laughter] you know, it was a very different uh it
was a very different feeling. Um and and and that hurt. And you know, and that was only a day for me. I can't imagine
like, you know, the turmoil going inside uh Amy. Well, and I think that's what's
interesting about the family is you you see this closeness, but I also see it as
there's some controlling aspects of this and it's not in this physically abusive
way or even a mentally abusive way. It's controlling by the closeness. I mean, even the trip itself, it seems like,
hey, we're all going to go on this cruise, but Amy was kind of hesitant to even want to go on the cruise to begin
with. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it I I heard that from a number of people that that she was that
she was a little afraid of it and and I think it was Cat or Molly um that said they thought maybe it was because of the
the lack of control. Uh cuz Amy like her mother like thrived with the with control. Control, you know, um was
something that she she sought in in her life as much as she could. I think being
on that cruise, it it also put her in close quarters with her with her family while she's, you know, really thinking
about being out and open and there's there's some turmoil there. >> We all can relate to the idea of like
maybe the coolest thing is not to go on a cruise ship with with [laughter] my family. And oh, by the way, I'm going to
have to share this makeshift bed with my brother. >> Yeah, it was very, you know, the there
were four of them in the room. The room's not that big. I did eventually uh I actually took a a trip on that cruise
ship and got into that room to see it myself. The So you've got the parents on the bed and you've got this couch that
pulls out and Amy and Brad would share the bed and Amy sometimes I guess would also sleep on the balcony kind of
wrapped up in a blanket. So it's very close quarters. I don't know that I if I was 23 if I necessarily would have
wanted to be in such close close quarters with with my with my family like that. But, you know, they they they
were very close. It's it's uh it's it's interesting. You know, it's it's hard to
talk about because, you know, I I still I still, you know, I do like the Bradley's. They were really good people.
Um and I and I do, you know, you got to feel for them because, you know, we don't know what happened to Amy. She's
gone. Although, we know that she's gone. and who wouldn't want her to still be alive. And during the course of the
research, I also like something I should have done early on before that interview
with the Bradley's that I didn't do was search their social media. Around the time of the documentary, people started
noticing it and started sending me links. And you know, you're searching for your daughter or your sister who's
gay and you think may still be alive, but at the same time, you're putting stuff on social media that is very
anti-LGBTQ, anti-trans, and if she were alive and saw that that kind of thing, you know, I
there would be some hesitation. I would think there'd be hesitation to to engage. um you know they they say that
they support the fact that she was by but their social media definitely suggests they are not supportive of that
sort of lifestyle in general. Well, a lot of times when a younger person is struggling with their identity, you'll
see these cases where it's like, well, maybe I am bisexual. And then that eventually becomes, well, I'm not
actually bisexual. I'm I'm just gay. With her going missing, we will never know what the final decision on how she
wants to live her life. My big issue with this case is with so many other missing person cases, the the timeline
leading up and all these scenes seem to matter so much. This case, I don't think
it matters as much because she's on a cruise ship. She's in a confined area. And based on everything I've seen, to
me, it's like, well, she comes back into the room. She's talking to her brother on the balcony. He goes in. the dad
wakes up and sees her and then wakes up and doesn't see her. And so you go, "Well, do we have any evidence that she
even got out of the room?" >> Right. Uh actually, uh I'm glad you mentioned that because uh at first
glance, I I you know, when I first saw this case, I agreed with you. I you know, what does the timeline matter? You
know, she she vanished from the balcony. But I think the timeline matters a lot.
mostly because at this point the family the narrative that the family is putting
out and their supporters are putting out is that at 5:30 a.m. when they say that
Ron last saw Amy, the cruise ship would have been either in or just in front of the canal leading into uh the the canal
that goes um into Curissowl into uh Williamstad, the the city there. and the canal it would go the cruise ship would
go into the canal under the uh under the big bridge and then and then park there
at the time. So, uh if the timeline they have been putting out with her being last seen at 5:30 is accurate, then it
really begs the question why if she fell off the if she fell or jumped into the water, uh why didn't they find the body
if it was in the canal and there's all these people around and boats and everything? Well, uh, I found that the
timeline that we've been given is most likely incorrect and there are some gaping holes in it, too. Um, my biggest
the the thing that upset me the most is I I interviewed the Bradley's several times and then we had that 5-hour
interview and on two or three separate occasions I went over this whole timeline with them. Now, um, what we had
been given up to that point is that, uh, Amy went up to the dance club. That's where she was dancing with this guy,
Alistair Douglas, aka Yellow, who was in the ship's band. They were grinding. And
that's who they have been pushing as the lead suspect of this case, this guy Yellow. Um, cuz he was kind of last seen
with her. And then she and Brad come back down to the cabin and go to sleep. And then they suggest that she came went
out of the room to meet up with Yellow again. Now, what was not told to me in any of those interviews and didn't come
out until, I think, after the the documentary is that Ron, their father, came up to the dance club at around 3:00
a.m. to ask them to come back to bed. And I think that could be quite important based on a number of
interviews I did uh including this this guy Ryland Johnson uh who was a friend of Amy's and she's this is this so
Ryland reached out to me when he heard I was writing a book and he's like uh we got to talk and the story he told me was
that a day before the cruise Amy showed up at his house. They hadn't seen each other in years and she seemed pretty
upset and she just wanted to talk and they talked for a while and then she started asking him questions about um an
unsuccessful suicide attempt that he had had and he's open about this in the book
and she wanted to know details and about why it wasn't successful and you know his ears perked up. He's like what are
you why are you asking me about this? Like >> kind of a weird question. >> Yeah. Are you planning something? and uh
you know she kind of eluded the the answer and he was really concerned for her and when when she went missing his
first thought was oh she she committed suicide you know so Ryland when he heard that that Amy was dancing with yellow he
he's like look if she was dancing with a black guy on that cruise ship she was doing it to piss off her parents and if
they would have seen it they would have flipped their [ __ ] So, you get Dad now,
we find out coming up to the dance club at 3:00 a.m. Did he see her dancing with
Yellow? Did that upset him? Uh, she's dancing. You know, his his work buddies are on this cruise. Like, that's why
they were on the cruise. They went there as part of his his his work. So, did that upset him? I don't know. I don't
know. Would that So, but why did they leave that out for the three times that I asked them about? Um, so dad's up
there at 3:00 a.m. They go back down. So, dad's probably awake by the time they get back to the the cabin there.
So, was there discussion? Was there some hurt feelings? You know, what was said at that point? I don't know. Amy goes to
the balcony. Everybody else goes to sleep. Now, we're told that he last sees her at 5:30, but I found some early
newspaper reports that when in the weeks after she disappeared, it was reported that she was last seen not at 5:30, but
at 4:30, which if true would be significant because the cruise ship would not be in the canal. it would
still be out at open sea and if she went overboard there um they'd never find her, you know, and they were searching
in the wrong place because the the search efforts to find Amy's body only happened around Kurissau. So, um I
reached out to Amy's aunt, Marian, uh Maryanne, and uh she's the one that's quoted in the papers back then because
she was the family spokesperson for a while and she's no longer close with the family. She's living actually she's in
the Caribbean. She's living um I think St. Thomas some somewhere uh down there. Um so I spoke to aunt Mary and the first
thing she said to me was you know it took you long enough and I knew she had something good. You know I said what
tell me about the timeline. You know the last time uh they saw her it was at 5:30
or 4:30. and she said, "Well, if if I said 4:30 back then, it was 4:30 because all everything I told the papers at the
time came from direct conversations with the Bradley's and she would write it down note fornotee so she didn't get
anything wrong, right?" >> So, I think that's a more accurate timeline is the the 4:30. Maryanne told
me something else that it's interesting. She she picked up a day or two after they got back when they when after Amy
disappeared, the family comes back to Richmond, uh, Chesterfield. Aunt Maryanne uh takes Iva into the city and
the story that Maryanne says is that she dropped Iva uh Amy's mother off so that
she could get a polygraph and everybody was getting polygraphed who was you know
there last seeing Amy who was on um Rapsy of the Seas that might have seen something and uh she came back very
upset. her, [music] you know, skin was all splotchy and she told Maryanne that >> [music]
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>> This goes back to what I was saying about this controlling nature. So our our our [music]
daughter is gay. Instead of having a conversation with her, there's a there's a letter written. Then it's like, "Hey,
we know you're 23 years old, but we really want you to come on this cruise ship with us. And is there some
motivation to separate her from some of her friends? Who knows? Dancing is not always sexual, right? So,
>> yeah. >> So, then you go, well, was she just dancing with this guy for fun or she
doing it to get a some reaction out of her family? Yellow seems to have said certain things about their conversation
that he remembers and her talking about not wanting to be on the cruise. Again, controlling the narrative of what is
going to be put out on Netflix or what's going to be put in your book. It this stuff bothers me. Then trying to
rewrite history of the timeline again. I don't think there's any proof that she left the room. I think that's that's
what the FBI says. That's what the FBI has has told the Bradley's very recently. They said, "Look, there's no
evidence she ever left that that balcony or that room." Now, I I will say this, you know, I you know, with with the book
and everything, I do not think the parents or the brother, I don't think the family is involved with what
ultimately happened to Amy. I don't think they did anything nefarious. Um, I think uh I think most of this can be
chocked up to not wanting to talk about uh or or to accept that that Amy was was
gay, that she was a lesbian, which some of us are think, you know, would think, well, why is that such a big deal even
today? And and you have to remember and and something that I came to learn visiting Richmond is that that's still
the that's still the deep south, man. Even though it's like a six and a half, seven hour drive from, you know, where I
I lived in uh Akran, Ohio, you know, it's Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, you know, and like my aunt
lived there for a time and she has this story when I told her I was going to do research on this case. She's like, "Be
careful in Richmond. It's a it's a different it's a different place." and she had lived there and she told me the
story that happened in the early 90s when she went out to dinner with my uncle and you know they're sitting down
for a meal and 9:30 on a Friday night the lights dim and everybody lights a candle on their table and they sing
Dixie, you know, so it's it's kind of wrapped up in that whole deep south Christian, you know, beliefs and and uh
Yeah, it's uh it's it's still very hard to for LGBTQ members um um down there. >> So, I'm guessing that they with the FBI
saying no proof that she left the room, they by that statement that is saying that pro every we have every proof that
she did in fact return to the room that night. And if and if they do do that, does that go beyond perhaps a
conversation with her brother or a sighting by the father? >> Yeah. Well, they they have her key card
swipe. So, the >> she had the card that you use to get back in the room, and each of them are
individual to the person. So, you know, I guess you could say all we know is that somebody used her car to get back
in the room, but it was it was most likely Amy that came in. They also have video from the common areas of the ship.
Uh I don't think this gets talked about enough. You know, everybody's like, "Oh,
there's no video of of of Amy." Well, um, that could be telling because they did have video from while they didn't
have video like in the hallway or like the balcony or anything like that, they did have it in the the the big public
areas of the ship. And if she had gone out on her own, like walked out when they got to Curissowl or if there had
been an altercation with with yellow somewhere public, that that would have been on they would have had that on
tape. So, I think that's more reason to believe that she never came out of the room is, you know, she was never spotted
in a public place after that. >> Well, in the documentary, the Netflix version, it's a lot of suspicion thrown
at yellow. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And you and when we talked to you for our previous episodes, it was
fascinating to hear that you spoke at length with that gentleman. >> Yeah. Yeah. you know, um I realized that
I I had to speak with him and I think at some point is especially given how much
the documentary paints him in a negative light. They really should have taken the
initiative to g go down to Grenada to speak with him, but I think it was just too expensive for them. um you know they
would have had to take a cameraman and you know producer and a writer and you know so you're you're shipping at least
three or four people on a plane to Grenada and it seems they just didn't want to take the expense. Well if you
don't want to you don't want to pay for it then you know don't don't use all the
other stuff that paints them in such a bad light. Zoom call the guy for I mean >> well I think they tried that
>> and I I don't think he would agree. I don't see him agreeing to that but the only way to really get him was to go
down there and I I kind of realized that. So >> it was it was kind of a risk but on my
own dime I I flew down to Grenada and uh and tracked him down. I knew he was working at a church. So what I did was I
just showed up at the church service on a Sunday morning >> and joined the choir.
>> Yeah. [laughter] You know, in my in my mind, I I'm like, well, I'll just go to
the church and I'll just blend in. He won't even know I'm there until like afterwards and I'll talk to him. But
like, you know, I forgot like I'm a white dude. >> I was going to say, do you blend in well
in Grenada? >> I do not in fact blend in in Grenada. Uh, so it's also >> with your notepad and pen.
>> Yes. >> And your microphone. >> It's also ridiculously hot, man. Like even at nine o'clock in the morning, I'm
like sweating and and they're they're used to it. Like they're like in long sleeves and pants and you I'm just dying
in the back. Um but uh you know he he sees me and I I go up to him and introduce myself and and uh I said I
said, "Man, I've come a long way just to talk to you. Do you have 10 minutes after your service?" And he he's like,
"Yeah." He's like, "I know how how far you've come." He's like, "I will I respect it. I will talk to you." And uh
so he sat in on his service and he and then he talks about how he's uh the exorcist on the island and and uh talks
about driving a you know the night before driving a demon out of a woman and she was vomiting black bile all over
the place and he had to get this demon out of her. Um so it was pretty trippy. >> Well, at least he got the demon out of
her. So yeah, he I talked to him and uh he was I found him to be very honest and
candid, you know, and he has a wife, beautiful wife and uh couple kids, I think. And um you know, he he
remembered, you know, a lot because of what happened later, you know, it kind of cemented in his mind. And you know,
he said Amy was um chain smoking on the on the ship and told him that she was gay and that her parents didn't approve
and that she was having a hard time because of that. And uh you know he he talked about how this has kind of really
impacted his life in a in a horrible way. People leaving terrible comments on his uh social media or like even his
daughter's social like in Instagram account and you know so he's always watching his back up there. He told me
that the FBI came and visited him a couple years ago and they did another round of questioning and then according
to Yellow, he was told that he was cleared that, you know, he didn't have anything to worry.
>> Well, I believe they gave him a polygraph test, right? >> I think so. Yeah. >> And and again, this would affect his
life and not just Well, because if you go on these cruise ships, they normally, you know, scan the internet for anything
about you as a part of their background check. So, I'm guessing that this might have affected some of his employment,
but I think this also affected his relationship with one of his daughters because she was starts going, "Well,
there's this missing person case and my father's name is brought up, so now she's starting to question every action
of her father." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they had a strained relationship. Um but, you know,
he told me he's like, "Look, she'll come around. You know, she'll realize that I
had nothing to do with it and things will things will work out." Yeah. So, with the Brian Schaefer case, man walks
into a bar and he's not seen on camera leaving. So, as you start looking into a case like that, you go, well, is it
possible that he left without being seen on camera? And that's the same thing I feel here. And so, if she made [snorts]
it back to the room, and if we believe what her family is saying, there's not too many options. She either goes
overboard by accident or on purpose or she possibly goes into another room. And there was the weird neighbor and I've
heard some rumors online of of him talking to himself, people hearing him talk to himself through the walls and
stuff. >> I I never put too much stock in the the the neighbor stuff. Um, you know, if the
one one of the things I go back to is the story that Amy snuck out of the room to go meet with yellow and then that's
when he grabbed her and or she ended up somewhere and somebody else took her. It's four people in a very small room.
Can you leave without anybody noticing you're gone? Her dad even says he's kind of in and out of sleep. So, it's
difficult to believe that. And then um once you open the door to that room, something odd takes place and there's
there's uh signs up to warn you about this. Uh there's difference in pressure between the hallway and the outside. And
what we do know is that balcony door was open, letting in the outside pressure. So if she would have opened that door,
uh there would have been a wind tunnel effect that swept through that room that would have, you know, every loose piece
of paper, every curtain, you know, would have been shaking >> and uh they would have woken up. She
didn't leave, she didn't leave that room >> and also possibly causes the door to
slam behind her. [clears throat] So that would wake people up. But again, okay, so if they didn't wake up, where is the
video footage of her? You'd think they would they would have that? >> Um, yeah. Yeah. If she got out, you
know, certainly they she would have appeared on one of the the public, you know, she would have had to cross
through like the the main atrium and would have been picked up on camera for that.
>> When they started searching for her, they found Yellow pretty quickly. >> Yeah. Yeah. They called him at his room
first. He was still in his uh in his room. I think they might have even woken him up. And he had a roommate, too. that
that that detail gets lost. Um, so, you know, if there is some if he did something to her, then the roommate has
to be in on the conspiracy to to some level. And I just don't see that happening.
>> Yeah. And I guess the idea would be, well, if you're on these cruise ships and you're trying to make money, then
maybe there was the side hustle of I'm going to traffic some girl. and he's he was on multiple cruise ships beforehand
and afterwards and there's no nothing suspicious about him, >> right? Let's let's talk about that for a
second because I did a lot of research into human trafficking in the Caribbean. >> Um, first of all, there's not one
verified incident of a white woman or any woman being kidnapped and from a cruise ship and trafficked into the sex
trade in the Caribbean. Um secondly, prostitution is legal to this day on Kurissowl. Like you don't need to kidnap
women to have prostitutes. Um and uh you know even in the other island, Margarita
Island, um you know, there's prostitution there. Human trafficking does occur in the Caribbean, but it is
almost exclusively with women of color from places like the Dominican Republic, poorer countries like Haiti and
Venezuela where the economic incentive to even though the prostitution is legal, what they can make in that
brothel is like 10 times what they could make back home. So, it is a kind of slavery. um you know that just the
economic incentive itself, but um to have a white woman in those brothel would attract so much undue attention.
No criminal is going to want that known. Um you know, the the word will get out.
Kurissau's um you know, it's a Netherlands um own it's it's a Netherlands country and uh so there's I
mean a ton of white people on there. um speaking Dutch and uh and English. So, you know, she also would have had no
trouble communicating with uh with people to to get to escape or to get help. Um white women are not trafficked
in the Caribbean. >> Well, and in that way, too, she would have stood out in the way that you stood
out at the church in Grenada. >> Right. Right. Exactly. And it's not as I you know, I spent time down there. I
rented a car, drove all over the island. It's not as dangerous as you hear. Um, yeah, everybody there was was friendly.
Of course, I I have the privilege of, you know, I've got the middle-aged white guy. Nobody's really going to mess with
me. But, um, you know, I didn't see any I I didn't see any really scary places. There were some kind of slums. Um, but,
uh, you know, nothing nothing that I would say would would be nothing nothing worse than East Cleveland. Um, so,
uh, the, um, the other thing is, you know, they point to, you know, the the the people
that support this theory that Amy was trafficked, you know, they they point to this picture of a, of, um, a prostitute,
um, a sex worker from one of the the brothel that looks a lot like her, and it sure sure does. And they also
mentioned the sightings of Amy over the years. And um you know so I talk a lot about you know how how memory and and
sightings work and how eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. And as to that picture that people keep
coming back to um that they suggest is is Amy a year or two after her abduction. She's got kind of that like
late 80s early 90s like poofy hair and is scandily dressed. you know, they'll say in in these pictures, you know,
isn't it a coincidence that you can't see any of Amy's identifying marks, um, her tattoos, and, you know, she's
positioned in such a way that you can't see any of these things? And that to me was like, well, I'm like, wow. Like,
maybe maybe that's right. But um the there are other photographs of that same uh sex worker that were not included in
the documentary that have not been shared with the family that clearly show you know there there are no tattoos.
There are no identifying marks that Amy would have. Um so that it's it's it's not Amy in those pictures. And further,
there was a I don't recall, it's been a year since I've watched the documentary, the Netflix documentary, so
I can't recall if this made it to that presentation, but there was a beach photo that was discredited
>> after the fact be and it was it was one that people looked at and were convinced
there were a lot of people that were convinced that it was in fact Amy sitting there on the beach in that
photograph, We learned that that photo was staged by the private investigator that was hired by the Bradley family. He
and his he did everything he could to string them along and keep Hope alive in order
to keep fleecing them for more and more money and saying, "Look, my investigation is working. My
investigation is working. I'm getting closer and closer to your daughter and here's here's visual proof."
>> Yeah. Yeah. He did a lot of damage. That guy's name was Frank Jones. And I devote
I think three or four chapters to his story in there because it's fascinating um to me just as like uh it's
fascinating human behavior because at some point he got in so deep that like what did he think his endgame was? He
knew he knew it wasn't Amy in those photos cuz he helped stage them. So I don't know what he thought how he
thought all that was going to end. certainly eventually was going to catch up to him and it did. He ended up
serving I think five years in prison over that whole thing and had to pay restitution to the sum of like just
somewhere around a half million dollars to to everybody. >> He had even claimed that they were going
to do like some black ops do this this undercover operation and go in there w with guns drawn if they had to to to
pull her out of the situation if I recall correctly. >> That's right. Yeah. In fact, not he, you
know, the the first trip, you know, they they paid him, you know, tens of thousands of dollars and and he told
him, you know, that, okay, I went in with my Navy Seals guys and we we found her. We totally found her, but then
there was a firefight between my group and the Colombians and we killed two of them and they wounded a couple of ours
and we had to retreat, you know, so you got to pay us more to go back in and we'll get her this next time. What a
ridiculous story like for something like that to happen like downtown Curissowl like without making the news, without
anybody being alerted. The fact that you have Colombian warlords, you know, with
machine guns at a property guarding a single white woman from Virginia. I mean, it's a it's a fantasy.
>> Yeah. One of the things that drives me bonkers about this case, though, is is
when people say, "Well, she wanted to have jumped because she would have been too afraid to. And
it's like, well, if she was jumping with the idea that I'm I need to be out of this world, I'm going to commit suicide.
If you're going to commit suicide, I'm sure people that shoot themselves are afraid of the gun. People that take the
pills are afraid of what's going to happen. People that hang themselves are afraid of what's going to happen. But
the the depression, whatever it is that's drawing them to do this, is more powerful than the fear of cuz
essentially they're letting go, right? >> Yeah. >> So that that's always bothered me about
this case. But so since your relationship with the Bradley's started out good but
has kind of severed, are you worried that that's going to because I'm assuming that you believe what you
uncovered is going to help add more pieces to the puzzle and to move the case possibly forward. But are you
worried about their reaction to the book? Uh, I think I've already seen the reaction in just the things that they've
said on social media and it's um, you know, it's disheartening. I I cared very much for them and I didn't take it
lightly when Iva said she loved me and invited me into her home. I love that. Um, and it was a relationship that I
really really wanted for this new book, you know, to to have a relationship like
that with the family involved. Um, so, you know, I I don't know what the reaction's going to be. It's, you know,
it's not what they it's it's certainly not what they believe or or believe, you know, say publicly, which is that they
believe she's still alive. Um, but I really did like what you were saying about how um, and it's something I
hadn't put together, but how perhaps the reason Amy was so afraid of the cruise is that she in some way recognized the
danger um, that could present itself as an opportunity for her to commit suicide. Um, I think that there's a lot
of truth in I think there could be a lot of truth in that. You know, the same way
that somebody that has suicidal ideiations would see a gun and try to steer away from it because they wouldn't
exactly know what they would do if they had it in their hands. >> Yeah. >> Um and then she was on this balcony, you
know, and and essentially putting the gun in her hands. Did she take the opportunity to do it? Um there's another
thing that I think about. Uh there's a writer named David Foster Wallace um who I like and uh he uh was was talking
about suicide and and how it makes sense in and he ultimately did die by suicide.
Um >> yeah, >> but how how how people think about it and he equated it to um 911 those people
that jumped from the building, you know, where um why did they jump? you know, it's it's you know, it's because they
had this this inferno behind them and they chose to go out on their own accord rather than succumb to the the fire. And
he said that's what depression is. Um is is and when you choose to die by suicide, it's the fire is too great at
this point and you'd rather jump because it's something different. wouldn't be such a difficult situation if if you
tried to have a conversation with your family and not only do you feel like they're not listening, but they're also
combative against who you are. And so that would put yourself in a very difficult situation.
And on top of that, when you go on cruise ships, what do you do? You you drink. >> Yeah. and and that and maybe you can be
fine with drinking one day, but you have you're having suicidal thoughts >> and that's speculation. We're
speculating that she might have had suicidal thoughts. >> There's circumstantial evidence though,
you know, the conversation with her friend and you know the Yeah. So >> yeah, and I think so then you have an
individual that is drinking that's a depression or that's a depressive one or two days of that and now you're every
night you're sitting on that balcony contemplating things. >> Yep. And then I think maybe maybe that's
one of the reasons too that the family was so guarded about that because maybe because of this stuff that thought
creeped into their mind >> and and I don't fault the family for going uh well she never would have
jumped cuz she would have been afraid to jump. Well maybe she didn't try to jump
off to go swimming but maybe she jumped for a different reason. >> Yeah. And and that's something that
anybody that has experienced a loved one taking their own life, it's hard to imagine why they did.
>> Yep. >> And it also I mean I don't think that it's so easily nailed down here. I mean,
when we talk about her having some fear of this cruise and James, you did a great job of presenting saying, you
know, that that it might what does it does it present to her the the that she may have known in advance she
might not be coming back from this cruise or what would it present to her while she's there and how should would
she act on that? But it also could be not just suicide, but identity suicide >> of, you know, okay, well, I I'm going to
jump and if I survive, I'm Amy Bradley's going to be no longer and I'm going to start a new but but then it's like,
okay, but then what? >> Yes. >> But then what? I've she's never obviously done anything like this
before. Most people never do anything like that before. Do that at any time in their lives. And then it's Well, then
what? Then then what is the rest of that in for her? >> I >> what is my next move?
>> That is the one thread of of hope that that that I keep in this is that when she went over which I do believe she did
um that exactly that that that she survived that she made a new life for herself. That's I I don't know that
that's the most plausible but it's it's nice to think about. And uh yeah, it's uh you know, oh uh one thing
that sort of supports that is that uh the night before she disappeared when she was dancing and hanging out with
people, she did make a joke to somebody that when she saw the lights of Curisowl, she was going to jump over and
race the boat to shore. when we have a story that has so many unanswered questions, I hate to really close the
door on any possibility and and so really thinking about these possibilities and I think that a lot of
them are still at play here. I would love to review the exact words from the FBI because law enforcement, especially
the FBI, are very particular in how they word things and how they choose to deliver a statement. And so if that
statement is we have no nothing telling us that she left that room, that's not the same as saying we have 100% proof
she did not leave that room. >> Right. Um, and and and to leave that door a little open here, what were the
actions of the FBI after they investigated that room and the scenario of that night and that morning? They
went down and they interviewed Yellow. >> Mhm. >> So that that to me those I like to
follow the actions of an investigation rather than the words of an investigation. And that action to me
tells me that there was there was reason for them to not completely close that door.
>> Okay. Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah. >> Well, congratulations on another great
book here. And this I mean this is just one in a long line. You've become a become a from
our teenage boy days meeting up on our BMX bikes in the garage. You've really become the prolific writer here. Uh
>> thank you. For those that are not aware, I know our longtime listeners are aware
of your great catalog, but you've had some really great books over the years. In fact, the one that was really our
introduction to you, the captain and I's in introduction to you, was your book about Amy Mahalavik. She was a missing
girl who then unfortunately was later found murdered. And her case is still ongoing. We recently discussed the
GoFundMe page that was set up by the Mahalavic family that is to raise money for DNA work on her case that will be
then given to Bay Village Police Department who is choosing to keep the investigation and the DNA of that
inhouse which I think is probably the best move. You and I and the captain knows this as well, but you and I have
firsthand seen the uh success of using private labs. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Uh and and and they always have a
greater degree of success and higher percentage of success. So the Amy Mahalik case, one of your first books is
Amy. Also one that was absolutely brilliant was true crime addict. And well, and can I just interrupt you real
quick? They're They're only about $1,600 away from their total goal of 28,000. So
>> nice. >> Every every dollar helps. >> Yes. And your other books are Scout Camp
and Little Crazy Children. And I mean, you have some fiction works as well, and The Serial Killer's Apprentice. The list
goes on and on. But to me, this one feels much more like Amy's book >> and like True Crime Addict where it was
not just a not so much a story for you to tell and to present to the world, but you lived large portions of this and
conducted in the investigation yourself and spent a good deal of time and money and effort to do so. Yeah, it's uh it
it's a mix of memoir and uh and reporting. And I think some people, you know, the early reviews um either you
you like that or you really don't like that. Um so there is going to be some memoir, some stories about about me and
and this investigation and what happened along the way, including how I ended up
on life support at one point um due to uh stupid actions of my own. Um, and uh there's a, you know, I visit with a a
medium at one point who tries to get in contact with uh with Amy and there's some weird stuff that happens with that.
Yeah, I like I like mixing the memoir uh stuff in with with what I do. It just makes it a little different.
>> Yeah, it was weird cuz when you were on life support, I was cheering [laughter]
into the light. Go into the light. But you made it out. You know what's it's what's funny is uh um if you do get
to to that chapter um there one of the as I'm convinced that if I fall asleep again I'm going to die. I'm and I can't
talk cuz the ventilators in my mouth. I'm writing out instructions to my to my then wife and uh I write out um call
Maggie and uh I had this message that I had to get to our friend Maggie Freeland
um that uh I had a video that only she had that if I died I wanted her to release so that everybody would know
what I I finally felt and had to say about the Moa Murray case. >> Well, I guess we'll never know.
[laughter] >> Yeah. Well, we've got that to look forward to, >> right? Right. >> The uh here's something to look forward
to. The book goes on sale July 28th. That's Tuesday, July 28th. But you do not have to wait because I see that it
is available for pre-order on Amazon. And you did us the service of reading the book to us. So, it's also going to
be available in audio form on Audible. >> Yes. >> Well, thank you so much for joining us
here in the garage, >> James. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the beer.
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Amy Bradley /// A Cruise to Nowhere

Nic and the Captain welcome author James Renner into the Garage to discuss his new book, A Cruise to Nowhere, an in-depth examination of the mysterious disappearance of Amy Bradley. Together, they explore the timeline, the evidence, the lingering questions, and why Amy's case continues to captivate investigators and the public decades later.

Grab a chair, Grab a beer, and join us in the Garage.

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

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Brief Summary

James Renner discusses the complexities of Amy Bradley's disappearance and his new book detailing the case's intricacies.

Key points

True Crime Garage Introduction. Welcome to True Crime Garage, where we dive into intriguing cases with special guests.
The Amy Bradley Case. James Rener discusses the complexities of the Amy Bradley case and his upcoming book.
The Turmoil of Family Dynamics. Amy's struggle with her identity and family control is palpable during the cruise.
The Impact of Social Media. The family's anti-LGBTQ social media posts create tension regarding their support for Amy.
The Mystery of Amy's Disappearance. Conflicting timelines and lack of evidence raise questions about what really happened to Amy.
Aunt Maryanne's Revelation. Aunt Maryanne reveals significant details about the timeline that contradict the family's narrative.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Gather around, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.

Introduction to True Crime Garage

1:27WatchJul 24, 2026

Tension

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