All the Time in the World | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

this week's episode is part of a special radiotopia-wide project welcoming a new
show to the lineup it's called ear hustle and it features stories of life in prison told and produced by those
incarcerated at San Quentin stay tuned after the show to hear preview to welcome your hustle all radiotopia
shows are releasing an episode around one theme doing time each of us interpreted the theme in our own way you
can listen to them all at radiotopia.fm here's ours it's called all the time in the world
foreign this is a mandible the Jawbone oh and that skull is in half yeah this person was autopsied
so this is an autopsy cut so that they can examine the brain there's a little bag here that says
hands and feet do those usually get separated because it's there a lot of little small bones so we put them in
a separate bag just so that they don't get scattered out throughout the box it's
easier to keep them together Daniel Westcott the director of the forensic anthropology Center at Texas
State University in San Marcos Texas about 30 miles from Austin we met with him in a non-descript
building a warehouse really so plain we drove right past it twice but when you get out of the car and walk
to the door you see a small paper sign with a vulture and a skull and you know you found it
there are very few places in the world that do what they do here while you would think that we would know a lot
about how bodies decompose it actually turns out that we really know very little about what's going on so this the
work that's done here is pretty vital to that at Dr Westcott Center they deliberately set out human bodies to
decompose in nature most of the bodies are lying on the ground face up with their arms at their
sides but researchers also Place bodies in trunks of cars wrap them in tarps and
bury them in Shallow Graves as a culture in some ways we actually are kind of scared of death and and you know we
embalm bodies so that they don't decompose as fast and we don't want to see that process going on but that
process does go on and we need to be able to understand how it works how big is the facility and how many
bodies are here the facility is 26 acres and it sits on a 4200 acre ranch and we
get about 70 donations a year so and then the bodies are usually left to decompose for about six months to
several years depending on the research protocol and then the skeletons come back here
and so we added about 70 skeletons per year to the collection so if you were to guess how many bodies
are in some state of decomposition here right now do you know probably about 60.
the bodies are donated they're called gifted bodies and the people who plan to donate themselves to the research when
they die are called living donors you know if they want to do something like put me in the trunk of a car to see what
happens there are under a tarp or a slab of concrete I I got no problem with that
this is Grady early a retired computer science Professor who decided long ago that he wanted his body to go to the
forensic anthropology Center why did you decide to become a donor I think that everyone should be useful
in life and if you can be useful after death as well so much the better after all
which would you rather do wind up in a box in the ground just wasting real estate or be in a box in the lab and at
least potentially useful to a researcher sometime in future Grady early remembers when the facility
was getting established more than 10 years ago and the University was struggling to find the right location
they needed enough space but they also needed a place that wouldn't freak people out we looked at a side out at
the airport some of the neighbors didn't like the idea and they said well that's going to
attract vultures so we'll have Birds interfering with the aircraft side over behind the outlet mall and uh
there were some people that were unhappy with that idea there's there's always nimbies around
he's given money to the facility and become fascinated by what he describes as quote helping bones tell their story
when his body eventually becomes part of the research he'll be joining his mother
she's already there it was an astonishing thing although in retrospect I suppose it shouldn't have been when I
told my mother what I was planning on doing she being a fairly practical woman said
that sounds like a wonderful idea sign me up so I did she died at 102. Grady says he doesn't really care what
happens to him when he goes into the field some bodies are placed in the open with the vultures and coyotes and some
are protected by long low cages some are clothed and some aren't it all depends on the nature of the experiment
it's odd to think that if all goes as planned Grady early will one day return to the very building where he sat and
talked to us packed in cardboard with the bones of his hands and feet in a small paper bag what I would really like
to do is have my skeleton articulated and hung up somewhere in the facility so I can keep my eye on what's going on
in his work at Texas State Dr Wescott is following in the footsteps of his Professor the biggest name in this field
Dr Bill Bass Dr Bass opened the University of Tennessee anthropological research
facility in 1981. it was the first of these so-called body forms although we learned no scientists
call them that and he pioneered the idea that we needed a death database if too much time has passed when law
enforcement encounters a body they have no way to tell when the person died much less who they were or what happened
and the only way to answer these questions is to put a body outside and watch it decompose
I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] here's what happens when you die after your heart stops beating your
muscles start to stiffen and rigor mortis sets in over the next few days the bacteria
that's already in your body just starts to take over and so as they do they start to produce
gases and these gases initially will just kind of work their way through the arteries and veins stuff like that and
you get what's called marbling and then it also then the next kind of step to this is that that gas starts to build up
and causes the bodies to go through what's called a bloat stage so they'll actually kind of puff up
how long after death does that happen it depends on the time of year but it can it can range from
three or four days to a few weeks usually here probably within about five days they're going into bloat
um once that happens so then the other thing that's happening is that you're also getting
flies that are attracted to the body and those flies are laying eggs and they tend to lay eggs in natural orphans so
they like the eyes ears nose mouth stuff like that and then they um so those maggots will hatch and there
again depends on the species and and the temperature and depends on how long it takes but usually a few days to a week
or so and they start feeding on the body as well so you've got that process going on and
then you've got the internal organs are decomposing and so those internal organs
are kind of liquefying and with the gas that's building up that liquid gets pushed out and that's what we call the
purge phase so that you get what's called Purge fluid and so it's just a dark fluid
dark yeah what is it it's not blood what is it no it's just a combination of all
the internal or organs that have decomposed [Music] this is a big place it is a big place
all right so we turn between the two first two telephones the bodies are placed on Freeman Ranch
which sits off a small highway just a few miles from the lab once you pass through the gates you see
what I only imagine you might see on any number of ranches in Texas Cactus tall green grass and cows
we just kept driving down a dirt road taking a left or right whenever we were told to
and then we arrived the only difference between this part of the ranch and any other was the giant
fence and locked gate [Music] so our first stop will be at the shed there to put on booties okay and
in reality what the booties are for is so that in case you actually you know step in something you don't drag it back
to your car are you wow are you kidding that's exactly why everybody thinks it's
so that's like protecting the scene but it's actually so that you don't drag home Decon fluid on your shoes The Purge
fluid right into the back into the minivan right all right uh let's see we'll start this way
so typically the way that this works is the way the body's a place depends on what research protocol they're being
used in but typically they're left uncaged on the surface caged on the surface buried or wrapped in something
so this is one that's left on the surface only a few feet from the gate sits the
first body it was hard to pick out at first because of the tall grass around it and this is where an individual was
originally closed and then the scattering is from from the different scavengers that have come
so we can see a pair of sneakers and a pair of pants and a sock but then the bones are
all kind of broken apart yeah they're kind of pulled apart at different places who what animal did this well mostly it
started out with vultures and then probably you've had some raccoons and other things come since then but most of
this is vulture activity I had no idea what to expect when we walked into that field I was nervous about a lot of
things wondering whether I'd be able to get these images out of my head that night when I went to sleep trying to
figure out how I would carry on an interview while not breathing through my nose regretting not bringing a change of
clothes but this actually seemed okay that first body hadn't been that bad and then we turned a corner all right so
the area that we're getting ready oh look at this the area we're getting ready to pass actually a uh this right
here is as a researcher uh actually from New York that's here so she's got bodies
on the surface and bodies that are buried oh this is really something so um there was a field of bodies under
cages and unlike what we had just seen these bodies seemed kind of new all were unclothed I could see one man
in a cage out of my right eye his stomach was so bloated that it almost touched the top of the cage and his
limbs were spread out to the sides his skin was a mix of black and brown and purple splotches I was trying to stay
back but Dr Westcott won straight form as you can see the maggots pretty active yeah
um at this time stage and then so this person has gone through bloat you guys all right yeah but this is wild
stuff this is wild stuff I don't think many people in their lives see stuff like
this so you can see let's talk about the skin kind of becomes really dark associated with the sulfuric gas that's
produced by the bacteria and stuff and then you get the active maggot masses going on
he kept drawing our attention to things that none of us actually wanted to see up close
so we were trying to stay with him but also just trying to keep our eyes straight ahead
it was hard to know what to do and it was hot over 90 degrees and then Dr Wescott took us to a row of
bodies under cages which seemed to be showing a progression kind of going through time in a sense and you can see
um that they've gone through bloat they're actually starting to starting to dry out
yep so this is we're kind of going through the process here walking down the line
yeah so you can see there's these are starting to get skeletonized how long have these guys been out here
do you think these have been out here probably a little over a year but you can see now you can't even see
the cadaver decomposition matter of fact you can barely see the body anymore because all that vegetation around it
perch fluid is so nutrient Rich that it acts like a super fertilizer and so bodies in the final stages of
decomposition are surrounded by Bunches of these tall healthy wildflowers the flowers are back the flowers are
back yeah Dr Wescott is working on a new project that uses drones and infrared cameras to
detect how much organic material is in the soil if law enforcement is trying to locate a
missing person in a huge area 5000 Acres they can use the Drone technology to narrow things down looking for spots
with a lot of organic material they're also working with police dogs most cadaver dogs are trained with small
tissue samples but it turns out the dogs don't always know how to react when they encounter a
whole body so police bring their dogs to the ranch to get used to finding the real thing
these different experiments are spread around the ranch and Texas state collaborates with other facilities Dr
Westcott showed us an experiment where three different centers across the country placed a body on the exact same
day to compare Regional differences so the the the body that we're looking at right there
it seems to me to be rather new yeah the spirit individual was probably placed yesterday
oh that's a brand new body yes it oh isn't that something our last stop was a clearing with three
shallow Graves on the day we visited they were in the process of Excavating the skeletons the
excavation was being done by more than 20 students all women a lot of this work is done by women Dr
Westcott is the only male director in the country and almost all of his colleagues and his graduate students are
women Dr Kate Spradley was in charge of the excavation it's interesting I think to do this kind
of work to look at all of these dead bodies basically and all of these human remains in the lab I see a
skeleton I see a task at hand I see a job that I have to do particularly with with the forensic cases that come in we
have a job to help identify those so going in there analyzing the skeleton that's what we do for me it's different
when I walk out to this the forensic anthropology research facility where people donate their bodies because here
when I see remains I see people who donate their bodies this was their last wish this is what they wanted to do so
for me it's very nice coming out here seeing them in their final resting place and it's very natural they just return
to the Earth are you a donor I am a donor are other members of your family no nobody else wants to do this but me
um my husband is pretty uneasy about it but I've looked at so many skeletons I've built my career on looking at
skeletons so I think it's only right that I give back just listen to the birds yeah it's incredibly peaceful yeah it's
a beautiful place to be on our way out we made one last stop the same stop that all the bodies make
before they leave the ranch the processing lab what does the kettle do I just it just
simmers them for a little bit to loosens up all the soft tissue yes they really are just giant soup
kettles um but then what's the crock pot for a small hands and feet and stuff like that
to the small bones a lot of times it's easier to finish them off in there and then so they're cooked in here and then
they're um but over here and they they scrub them all down what are these little guys down
here tips your fingers that's a fingertip yep and these are all toes and you can see
the little teeny toes and then these little things right there these are these are actually extras not they're
not even included in the 206. you know it looks like wood this bone almost looks like wood yeah it
kicks on the color of the soil we saw two complete skeletons laid on metal gurneys and organized anatomically
it's amazing to see how fragile our ribs are we were very lucky to be permitted to
visit normally only law enforcement and researchers are allowed in even if you decide to donate your body
you'll never be able to see this place while you're alive but people do ask well usually when someone calls they say
something along the lines of I'm interested in donating my body to science and I hear that you take bodies
if you call for information you'll speak with Lauren meckel and so I let them know about the friends again their
apology Center and how their body can help identify missing persons and they usually get very excited about that and
they they ask about some of the research projects they were doing um specifically about the vulture
studies people are really interested in vulture consumption of human remains like they want to be part of that study
or they do not want to be part of that study many people actually are very interested in being a part of that study
they see it as a sky burial so it's something that seems peaceful I suppose you can actually make requests and
they'll try to honor them you can ask to wear a certain item of clothing or a piece of jewelry you can ask to be
placed under a tree one man asked to be placed with a cell phone and they did it
people also called to ask about the status of a friend or family member so people say I'm just wondering if
they're all decomposed now and they're back inside yes I think I would that's the question I
would want to know too if someone was if you got them off the ground and back in
the box yes and usually people are surprised by how long it takes to because sometimes
it can be six months if we're doing um a study where someone dropped in a tarp for instance and they skeletonized
really quickly and then we can pick them up really fairly soon after their death
but for the most part they stay out there for about two years many of the donors have spent their life
in education and see this as a way to continue teaching after they've died and many work in law enforcement and have
seen the value of the research firsthand I kind of see it as an extension of being an investigator
Elaine Walker is a retired private investigator and last year she made the decision to donate her body to the
forensic investigation research station in Colorado how do you like retired life
it's the best job I've ever had oh good I loved my job but this is the best job I've ever had
may ask how old you are 67 you're 67. but why not donate your body to science in another way like a
organ donor is there something about the I guess that there's no investigative quality when you donate your liver
well no but I am an organ donor however at my age some of my organs are you know
wouldn't really work out in somebody else's body they're a little on the old side
how do you imagine the Body Farm peaceful have you seen pictures no I haven't seen pictures I would imagine
it's peaceful um it is out away from civilization and I imagine that there are just bodies
laying there and birds coming in to Feast on them yeah this bothered me at all that I'm going to be eating
that's a wild thing to be talking about isn't it yes it is what did you tell your family when you
signed up how did they respond my husband isn't very excited about it but he respects that that's what I want to
do what will your husband do when he dies uh that's a good question because he won't discuss it
he's so terrified of death he won't discuss it wasn't that interesting it's like
opposite ends of the spectrum yes it really is so I but I did tell him that I was going to send him off the cheapest
way possible if he doesn't tell me what he wants but he still won't tell me what he wants
Elaine was the fourth person we spoke with who planned to donate their body to a body Farm but whose spouse refused to
even talk about it even Dr Bill Bass the pioneer of the Body Farm is leaving the decision up to
his wife since that trip I keep thinking about one particular part of Freeman Ranch a
patch of woods off the main path it was greener than other places Shady Dr Wescott stopped us there and asked us
to listen to The Birds right in front of us there was a body under a tree protected from the Sun
someone who thought they might be able to do some good someone who agreed to be placed outside under the trees with the
bugs until they disappear foreign Spore Nadia Wilson and Me audiomix by Rob Byers special thanks to Sergeant
Zachary McBride of the Guadalupe County Sheriff's office this week we say goodbye to our long-standing intern
Alice Wilder Alice is responsible for some of our favorite stories like Tony the Tiger at the truck stop and the
woman who borrowed a bra from a postal worker Alice even approached dozens of strangers to ask them what 420 means
she's on her way to New York for her next chapter in podcasting we're gonna miss her and wish her all the best
Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal you can see them at
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North Carolina public radio wunc we're a proud member of radiotopia from PRX and we're excited to welcome a
new show into the radiotopia family ear hustle shares true stories of life in San Quentin State Prison told
directly by and from the men living there the show won radiotopia's podquest contest last year beating at more than
1500 entries from around the world you can hear preview in just a moment radiotopia is supported by the Knight
foundation and thanks to adserc for providing their ad serving platform to radiotopia I'm Phoebe judge this is
Criminal foreign podcast contains language that may not be appropriate for all listeners
I did not realize that I could be potentially facing life in prison now I'm going to drag you through four
corners of this sale it's like that it's like I don't want to be in prison but I want to know what it's like
to be in prison you really think people want to know what it's like in prison you got all these TV shows new programs
like uh Prison Break Orange is the New Black locked up you won't let me and you know all the shows but they all [ __ ]
though why why are they [ __ ] this ain't none of them serving time they never did no real time yeah and in
prison ain't really like that no man we just living life like everybody else I'm
erlin Woods erline is serving a 31 year to life sentence for attempted second degree robbery and he's the co-host and
co-producer of ear hustle and that is Nigel poor she's a visual artist who works with incarcerated men here at San
Quentin and she's the co-producer and co-host of air hustle see she brings a softer touch to the show thanks Antoine
welcome that's Antoine Williams he's serving a 15-year sentence for armed robbery with a gun enhancement and he's
the sound designer for ear Hustle I believed I was going to die in prison she was happy to be with me we all
worked together inside of the media lab in San Quentin prison where we produce your hustle and it's all done inside the
prison I mean the interviewing editing sound design by your boy and that's really cool but it also is super
challenging because we have limited hours we can work we've got no internet access and we can't even freaking talk
to each other on the phone what and on top of all that prison is never a quiet place okay okay
and that's great hey e tell everyone what you're hustling means it means being nosy and
eavesdropping and learning more about what actually happens inside of prison you'll be hearing directly from the guys
that's doing the time see we're going to be telling stories all kind of stories that range from starting a family uh
having pets misguided loyalty fashion food cooking isolation sibling rivalry mommy daddy time and we got a lot of
ground to cover over our first season we decided to kick off this season with a story that everybody can relate to
finding somebody to live with in prison terms that means finding a cellmate can we hear just a little bit
of it nope yep nope okay okay wait just a little bit hold on hold on hold on only because you said please
when we sell these I didn't smoke he was smoking cigarettes and he just lit up right there on the bunk and he's like
man you're trying to kill me you're killing me with this you're gonna kill me with cancer man shut the [ __ ] up with
that [ __ ] man God it's like man we are in prison for life you know I have 67 years to life man I am smoking this
cigarette so that's episode one of your hustle coming soon from radiotopia from PRX
before we go huge props to a crucial partner in all it is and that's Lieutenant Sam Robinson the San Quentin
public information officer without his guidance and support none of this will be happening he also has to listen to
all of our stories and okay them before they go out even this promo so what about it Lieutenant are we cool this is
Lieutenant Sam Robinson the public information officer at San Quentin State Prison and I approve this story and
please visit our website airhuselsq.com you can subscribe to the podcast sign up for our newsletter and
find out how to send us a question by postcard that we might answer on a future episode that's air hustle sq.com
so kick back relax because we're about to take you inside [Music] from PRX

The “body farm” at Texas State University is a place almost no one is allowed to see, because it’s one of very few places in the world that deliberately puts out human bodies to decompose in nature. Forensic Anthropologists observe decomposition in order to help police officers discern when and how someone may have died. We asked if we could visit, and they agreed.

Music in the episode “Tuck and Point” by Blue Dot Sessions “Lemon and Melon” by Blue Dot Sessions “Code 6” by Blue Dot Sessions “One Needle” by Blue Dot Sessions “Folly and Typeset” by Blue Dot Sessions

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 68 originally published 6/2/2017 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-68-all-the-time-in-the-world

Brief Summary

This episode discusses body donation, forensic anthropology, and introduces the new show Ear Hustle about life in prison.

Key points

Introducing Ear Hustle. A new show featuring stories from those incarcerated at San Quentin.
The Forensic Anthropology Center. A unique facility where bodies are donated for research on decomposition.
Body Donation Perspectives. Grady Early shares his thoughts on body donation and its purpose.
Understanding Decomposition. Exploring the stages of decomposition and the science behind it.
Drone Technology in Forensics. Using drones to locate organic material in missing persons cases.
Facing Death's Conversation. A spouse's fear of discussing death creates tension in their relationship.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I think that everyone should be useful in life.

Grady Early on body donation

4:04WatchDec 10, 2022

Tension

40/ 100Low tension

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