Adnan Syed, Adam Walsh, Jeffrey Dahmer /// Off The Record | Forensic Files

[music] [music] [music] You know, something was uh kind of bothering me the other day.
>> Kind of sticking out like a sore thumb. You ever like have have you ever been talking about a
case with somebody and then they bring up something that kind of hit you in a different light where you're like, "Oh
[ __ ] never thought about that before." >> Something like in a good way. >> Yeah. And but also
also in the way where you're like, "Oh, I'm stupid." >> Yeah. Why didn't I think of that?
>> Well, it was so obvious. and and and and and maybe you'll have the same maybe
you're as stupid as me. And so >> was this a case we covered? >> Uh well, Adon Sayed,
>> right? We and we've talked about this case before, but I was going back and and watching the the HBO documentary and
and and thinking about some different things, but uh somebody was telling me there's so much
uh they're going through the section where they're going through Jay's rap sheet and that he had like 20ome over 20
cases. Um but he was never charged with those. So you know that he might be arrested for
assault and battery but never they never went through with it. Right. >> Um so it's still a part of his rap sheet
but there was there was no charge there. And there was 20ome of them. And the the
more that I was watching this and discussing this with this person, you know, they're going back and forth with,
you know, that their stance from the beginning before watching the documentary, they've never seen it, was
that Adnan was innocent. And that that was their gut feeling. And so going through all this stuff, uh you know,
they would present, you know, that she was found by this guy in the park. And so this person's going, "Oh, maybe
that's the person." And then they bring up, you know, Haye's current boyfriend at the time, Dawn. Oh, maybe it's that
person. So, you can kind of see this, you know, watching this documentary with your friend and and seeing them go
through uh the process of elimination really. But when they started getting to Jay and they started
really like, you know, going, "Look at all these charges he had and look how shitty of an individual he had."
And I I don't want to say it's shady, but it's it's interesting how there's there's two stories that you
have to make happen at the same time. So the whole idea is that here's this really good kid, really good student
that's put away. Who's he put away by? There's no evidence. It's just this shitty guy.
And let's show you how shitty he was, right? Mhm. >> But the thing that happens the whole
time, the as you're trying to make him shitty, you have to then wrestle with the fact, well, if this kid was so good,
why was he friends with somebody so shitty? >> You see what I'm saying? >> Well, and I think that's that's the, you
know, part of the story. And I think part of the story that's not being told because
look, I I know that they were trying to be down the middle and really really just
kind of let everybody form their own opinion, but in my mind to me, the serial uh season 1,
it feels more like they're telling Adnan's side of the story a little more than any other side of the story. and
and and definitely the HBO thing is doing the same thing. >> Well, and I >> so I think I think what we have here is,
you know, Jay refers to himself as the criminal element of the high school. And I think what we have here, the part of
the story that might be missing from the whole thing is that maybe Adnan was this
great guy, this great student, this track, you know, he was on the track team, very involved in the school. uh
he's going out with with a with a girl that is she's smart, she's involved in the school, she's a good kid. And
I think the part that's missing is maybe Adnan was was becoming something else, was becoming a bad guy, was becoming a
quote unquote gangster, you know, of of the of the school. And and I you know that's where I think we have part of the
story that just might be missing or conveniently missing from from the whole story. But I've always felt and and
until somebody shows me something else, I've I'm not going to say which side of the the fence I fall on because I think
people are a little some people are very passionate about their feelings on this
case. And I'm just not that passionate about the case itself. I but I've always felt that
if Adnan did not do it. I'm not saying he did it, but if Adnan did not do it, then my opinion has always been then Jay
had to be the one that that that killed >> Mhm. >> Hey Lee. So, um it's it's a it is a it's
a really good mystery. I hate to say it that way because we're talking about somebody's life and uh if Adnan is
innocent, we're talking about his life as well. >> Multiple people's life. Yeah.
the whole families and everything. Um, but just as a uh as somebody on the outside looking in it, it's it's a
really interesting mystery in that it's because as you said, Jay is the one that's
providing all this information and there's something about Jay that's just not trustworthy.
>> Well, right. And his story constantly changes. >> Even if you told me he was a good kid,
you know what I mean? Like even if you wiped away all those arrests or whatever they were,
>> there's something about him that doesn't feel right, that doesn't feel trustworthy.
>> Yeah. And and the other thing I can't get over, which why rewatching this documentary is the fact
that what was testified to was Jay testifies to get him picked up at his house. the person that picks him up
testifies that she picked him up at the mall. And it just I can't get over the fact
that you have this one person telling this story, you bring in the other person to kind of, you know, um, back
that up, but their stories don't even line up. Even just where the stories where his story kind of ends and where
her story begins, they don't line up. And that fascinates me that people could then
look at this. No evidence, no physical evidence, no nothing really linking this other kid to the crime other than
hearsay from a known liar. And even if you don't know that he's a liar, there's multiple stories that that the
prosecution are are presenting that don't line up that because the stories didn't line up. so much that they just
almost had to just go, "Well, look, some of the stories don't parts of the stories don't line up and we're not even
going to worry about trying to tie up the loose ends, which is strange." But yeah, it's uh
I I I wonder I think it's possible that somebody like Jay could have to throw somebody under the bus and
he could create a story. And I think just his limited knowledge, if there's limited
knowledge of him being friends with Adon, he could create enough of a story that you go, "Okay, that makes sense. He
was upset that she's dating this new guy. He wants to get rid of her." Uh, I know that they used to make out in the
in the Best Buy parking lot, so that's where I'll put it at. I but but I can't get over the fact that
you have a girlfriend that you're supposed to meet up with. You never make any contact with her to
let her know that you're not going to meet up with her. And you go to supposedly this other job. I'm talking
about Dawn now. You supposedly go to fill in at this other location. You don't meet up with her. you don't
make any contact with her. And then I believe she was supposed to work at Lones Crafters later that night, which
he would have been on the schedule at that location. So they would have worked together, but he's supposedly working at
this different location. So again, you make no contact with her to let her know you're not meeting up with her. You make
no contact with her to let her know that you're working at a different location.
You know what I mean? I have a really hard time getting over that fact that that um
somebody in a boyfriend and girlfriend situation wouldn't make any contact um with their girlfriend the the day the
girl goes missing. Yeah, I mean I I I get I get it. Um it it does seem suspicious to me. I've
just never and never will be able to get over Jay has his story is that he had some
involvement and for me it's hard for me to believe that he would choose to tell tell law enforcement that he had some
involvement if he didn't. >> Right. >> And I that's why my the suspect pool for me is is quite small. It's it's a hot
tub. It's a It's a It's a bathtub and there's two dudes in it and um that's it for me. Like I I can't believe that
I even though I don't find him trustworthy or or I feel like there's something off there, I don't feel like
he is dumb enough or was intimidated enough by law enforcement to implicate himself in something if he wasn't
involved. And that's why I kind of stick to my guns on, you know, either he either he did it or things are just as
he says it is that Adnan did it and he had some Jay had some um involvement in in the whole thing.
>> Yeah. I like you said though too what what makes this case so interesting is even things like when they go well they
haven't tested the DNA. So then you go, okay, so we need to test the DNA. But once you test the DNA and
you realize that there's no connection between this evidence and Adnan, that does not erase the confession by
Jay. You see what I mean? So that's that's where I think this case becomes a a very
interesting mystery >> because normally look if the case was look we have this DNA evidence and blah
blah blah blah and and on top of that was yeah we got some people kind of putting adnon at the scene no confession
to be involved if that was the case and it came out later that the DNA evidence wasn't
correct and by the way he's not connected to the the the crime based off DNA, it'd be open and shut. He'd be out.
But the fact that you have that test, those tests they didn't do at the initial trial.
So even though they they come back and say, "Well, he's not connected, that doesn't mean he's innocent either."
So, and then just goes back to, well, we got this guy and he confessed and so therefore we keep the guy in jail. But
we're not to the part four yet. But that's the other thing that I as I'm watching again.
It's the idea of if he would have taken the deal that they were offering to him at the end, if that's correct,
he would have pled, I believe, if Alfred plead or some kind of plea or he' plead guilty and he would
get out in two or three years, which would be like now. He'd be out now. um that um
I don't know. I don't know if that to me on some level that makes me lean towards
innocent if somebody does not want to admit that they're guilty. You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. No, I I I could see why. I know. I've certainly felt that way with uh the
Jason Baldwin situation, which was very similar. He was the the one that was holding out on on saying that the West
Memphis 3 killed those three boys. I I also see a situation too where he's he's maintained his innocence this
entire time. Is this something that he is there something worse for him than prison?
>> You know what I mean? Um and and it can be that way. It it it's tough to believe, but it can be that
way. It could be, you know, I don't I'm not going to admit to this even though I
did do it because I've told my family this whole time that I'm innocent. I'm not a murderer and
and I don't care what reason they think that I'm taking this deal, >> right? >> I'm not going to admit to this because I
don't want to admit to my family, maybe even to myself, that I am who they say I
am, >> right? Um, you know, sometimes sometimes these people and and not not so much
Adnan, not so much uh people that that have killed one person, but I see it more with like serials serial killers
where some of them >> you have some that are that are eager to brag and boast about what they've done.
They want credit for it. They they think that they're something special. And then
there's others that that refuse to admit the monster that they are. and you have
overwhelming evidence. You know, there there's there's no doubt in anybody's mind that
this person did one or two or three or four of these these murders. And I mean, you'll see it even with like Ted Bundy.
He was he was weird in a sense that he admitted to a lot of things that he did, but he very likely killed two children
and he never admitted to either of those there. I mean, he's convicted of of one
of those and he never admitted to those and and and a lot of people believe these are these are experts, you know,
say that. >> Yeah. Ted would tell us a lot of stuff, but he was there was even things that
that dude was ashamed of. >> Well, yeah, >> that he did. And he and he wouldn't he
wouldn't admit to it just because. >> I mean, they have eyewitnesses that put Jeffrey Dmer uh in the Hollywood
Hollywood Mall. Um >> Yeah. And that's that's the thought there too where you have Jeffrey Dmer
who admits to just we thought everything >> and now you have all these witnesses
that say, "Hey, I saw that dude Jeff Dmer in the in the mall and and then he then the kid goes missing. Then Adam
Walsh goes missing, >> right? Yeah. They find him decapitated and they go, "Well, h no, I wasn't
responsible for that." That's a story we we've we've talked about covering and I think we I think we should
>> what >> cover that the the DMER Adam Walsh thing. >> Yeah, I think I mean I thought we talked
about a little bit in the Adam Walsh episode. >> Yeah, a a little bit, but I think we
just I think we just scratched the surface. >> I think we could probably do a pretty
solid onepartter on it. >> Yeah. Um because what was also interesting about that was, you know,
like Adam Walsh's father, like he was totally fine with them questioning Ted, but Adam Walsh's dad almost went back
and forth like, well, maybe it was Ted, maybe it wasn't >> Jeff. Sorry, >> Jeffrey.
>> Yeah, Jeffrey. Uh maybe it was uh Jeffrey Dmer, maybe it wasn't. Um he would kind of go back and forth. And
then other times he would be like real adamant that Audis Tulle he was charged with the crimes, he was convicted of the
crimes, he's the killer and and that's it. So it's weird that there was back and forth. But the other thing
>> something happened and I don't recall what it was. There was something that happened in that case that made John
Walsh flip because there were years where he was very vocal and against the local law
enforcement >> saying, you know, these guys are stumbling bumbling idiots and they can't
they couldn't solve anything. And and then he flipped at some point and said they did the best job that they could.
My son's case is solved. I and I can't recall what it is. I think Otis Tulle did something. Either
either John Walsh met with Otis Tulle or Otis Tulle sent him a letter. Something
happened that made Walsh's feelings on that whole thing flip and and and say that look, they we know who did this,
>> right? >> We we know who did this. So, and but see I also wonder like at what point does he flip and at what
point does he decide that he's going to become a public figure and he's going to
try to use this as leverage to create a career and and was there pa was there a PR firm involved saying hey you need to
do this now you need to come out and >> well he was a victim advocate for years after his son was murdered and then he
So he would go on like TV shows with with parents of children that were missing at the time and he was trying to
set the record straight on what his experience was saying look if your kids missing it's your job you
parent A and parent B it's your job to keep this case moving to keep the local law enforcement out of the doughnut
shops as I believe he said to or out of the coffee shops is probably what he said. Um to keep your your son or
daughter's case in the media spotlight. >> It's your job because if you don't do
it, I can't guarantee that anybody else will. And that was his whole that was his whole thing. And and what happened
was when he did that for his own son's case, he had to learn this on his own. And he did it for his own son's case.
and he did a did a pretty damn good job of it from my opinion. And then he becomes this victim advocate and we have
parents of missing children coming to him contacting him and saying please can you tell me what to do and can you get
involved in my kid's case and so really really the the TV show gets offered to him
because that's who he became through this horrible tragedy. >> Well, no, I understand that. But at at
some point when that offer is presented to you, you have to then, you know, whether it's a manager or whatever, but
it's you're making a conscious decision to that we're taking this to the next step, you know, and I'm not saying that
that's a bad thing, you know what I mean? I'm not saying that like he's bad that he
he wasn't piggybacking on his son son's death. >> No, no, no. And I I hope nobody would
think of think of it that way because really what you have is a man who wanted other people to not have to experience
what he experienced >> and he wanted to help people that were experiencing that. And because of that
he was offered a position. He was offered this project and it's it's kind of like
>> but you have to make the choice once you're offered that project that here we
go. you know, this is a new thing and and there might be PR in uh involved and you know what I mean like
>> well I get that >> your life is going to change and so >> what I don't know what that means though
like he's just he's >> well what I'm saying is like that that's what I'd be interested to know he was
offered this thing and then like you said there there kind of seems like a shift uh in the way he's presenting
himself and what he's saying about law enforcement and all I'm saying is he could have had some coaching on that
because because he's offered this show. It's a part of a brand. It's part of a network and they're going to say, "Hey,"
they might say, "Hey, we want you to approach it this way." And there's also been other cases with missing kid cases
or murder cases where um people do have, you know, some kind of PR for firm or some kind of advisor saying, "Hey, this
is how we want to approach things from now on. This is how we want to not spin the story, but this is the the image
that we're trying to convey to the uh public audience." >> Well, yeah. I mean, for the show itself,
it it works better if he if it appears to everybody that he's on the same side as law enforcement. Um,
no, I something something happened in it and I believe that it was some interaction between him and Otis Tool is
what what flipped it. Now, as one thing that I do find weird is as as um you know, with with him saying before
that that the the local cops are nothing but Keystone cops and um that one one of the detectives
worked on his show eventually. I don't know if it was from the from the start or or for the entirety of the show, but
he one of the detectives that worked his son's case actually worked on the show for, you know, Fox or whoever. I think
it was Fox that did the show. >> Um, but Wal Walsh's story and one thing we we failed to report. Look, we we were
new when we did Jeffrey Dmer. That's like episode like four or five or something, right? Um,
and we were only doing single episodes back then. Did we do two episodes on Dmer?
>> Just one. >> Just one. The And well, and then we did Adam Walsh's case later,
but one thing that we failed to to report on Adam Walsh's case, which again, we only did one one episode on
that. There was there was a bunch of weird [ __ ] going on at the Walsh home. And actually, local law enforcement in
the beginning believed that either his Adam's mom or this other guy could have could have kidnapped or
killed Adam. >> Mhm. >> Because apparently his his wife was having an affair with
this guy that was like a a friend of the family. like he was he was not just friends with with uh Rey Walsh, he was
friends with John, too. I think it was actually one of John's old buddies, >> right?
>> You know that you know how like in a marriage you kind of bring your own friends to the to the girlfriend
boyfriend relationship or whatever relationship it is. You bring your group of friends, he or she brings their group
of friends and then later you've known these people for 10, 20 years or whatever. I think this was one of John's
old buddies that became friends and they they were doing something behind John's
back and police the investigation into where Adam was uncovered this relationship.
I question I actually think John may have known you know that they might have been on the outs already.
>> Right. >> But >> but they stayed together for quite a bit after that though. Right.
>> Right. But the the investigators, their thought at the time was, "Okay, here's
this dude. He he and Rey want to have a relationship, but the dude doesn't want any kids or doesn't want her bringing a
kid from her first marriage to this new relationship." And that was the angle that they were working
>> at the time. >> I think look, I can certainly understand his frustration. you want uh you want
them to be looking for the the right person and uh looking for your son. Uh one thing where I think that they didn't
get credit for is that seems like a somewhat plausible theory to be working and we know the stats on on children
being killed by their parents or by somebody close to them >> Mhm. >> is much higher than being killed by a
abducted and killed by a stranger. So where where I think you got to give some credit is they moved off of that theory
at some point. So if they were Keystone cops or stumbling bumbling idiots, they would have stuck to that theory as we've
seen as as we've seen bad cops do uh in other cases where they they get locked onto a theory and they just stick to it.
>> Well, right. Take the Adnan Sad case. I mean, I think that's very um descriptive of what happened. You know,
we're look, not that they're not looking into other things, but I mean, they even
said so in the documentary, we're looking for 51%. >> We're looking for 51% to charge the
person. We don't have to get a conviction. We just have to charge the person. That's the cop's job. Okay.
Well, but my argument there would be that you can get to 51% pretty easily. Um, so the other thing and just back to
this ad nonad case for a second is um I think the I think the other thing that makes this
case such a mystery is like you were just saying with Adam Walsh case. Well, you have this scenario where you got
these two people. They're having an affair. They want to start a life together. So, we're not going to say it's that far
of a leap for this guy to go, "Hey, I want to start a life with this person, but I don't want kids, so therefore, I'm
going to kill this person's kid." >> Mhm. >> That's a pretty big leap. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. But now I understand that Adnan and Hmon Lee weren't weren't dating for
just a little bit of time and now she has a new boyfriend and all this stuff and yes that this Adon seems cool with
it but it's high school. How many people like some of the insane [ __ ] that happens when you're in high school? And
maybe not maybe insane's not the right word, but but for example, you it wouldn't be uncommon for your friend to
start dating somebody within a couple weeks he's saying I love you to the girl. And how many times did that happen that
nobody spoke up to their friend and went, "Hey, man. You you only known her for 2 weeks. Maybe you shouldn't be
saying I love you." >> I mean, you wouldn't say that to your friend because it's high school and yes,
he's going to say that he loves this girl. Then they're going to break up. He's going to start dating somebody
else. And a week later, he's going to be telling her he loves her. So I think there you what makes it more
of a mystery is the weird and erratic behavior of high school kids makes it seem more plausible.
Yes, they broke up and they seem cool, but could something happened that triggered this kid
to want to get rid of his ex? And I used to not think that that was much of a possibility. But then I
started thinking, but let's just say Adnan didn't kill Haye and Adnan committed suicide, right?
I wouldn't think like if somebody told me that story, oh well, these people were going out. They went out for a
while. They couldn't like be a official couple, so they had to break up. She starts seeing a guy that she's works
with, right? >> Mhm. >> And couple weeks pass, he seems okay, right? He seems like everything's fine,
but they found him dead the other day. If somebody told me that story, I wouldn't think of that as that.
It sounds logical, right? And at least in my PE brain, it sounds logical. And it's also the idea of well,
but there was no evidence that he was depressed. My argument would be, well, he was
hiding it obviously, right? >> And then therefore, since he was hiding it, he he was obviously depressed. He
was obviously shaken up by this. And maybe it wasn't something that he thought about for weeks. It just
happened the day of. So if I think that has somewhat logical sense to it, then I
think the reverse happens as well. Where could Adnan be been fine with this and showing a good face for everybody? Yes.
Is there something that could have happened to make him snap that day or could this be something that he was
festering for a couple weeks? It's very possible. It's It's more logical than I think people
uh give it credit for. >> Well, and again, that's we're we're we're getting this whole story. And when I say
whole story, we're getting it through through choice lenses, through we're getting parts of the story. And and
that's going to be how all true crime stuff is. And let's all hope and pray that we never have to live any of this
this [ __ ] because nobody should have to. But on the outside looking in, most of
the time you're only going to get a portion of the story. And one part that we're missing here is
large portions of the of the initial trial where where I'm sure that they're probably saying, look, part of our
theory is that this might have been impulsive. We're talking about, you know, two
teenagers, >> right? >> The victim's a teenager. The murderer, we believe, is a teenager. And it
doesn't have to be some master plan that this guy tried to to hide his hatred for
her for weeks before he he kills her. Maybe he just maybe there's some kind of face-to-face interaction and he lost his
[ __ ] >> and he choked her. And look, I mean, the younger we are, the more impulsive things we do. And I think
that's pretty pretty straightforward and across the board. Um, and so I think that that's part of it. And and that's
the other thing, too. That's part of that theory. Then you can extend that out and go, "Well, that's also why he
didn't get away with it because it was impulsive and and had somebody taken the time and put intelligence and put
thoughts to this, they may have got away with it because they would have covered
their tracks a little better. They would have done this or that or the other thing." And [snorts]
um so I think that that's part of of the idea behind that as well. >> Yeah. So, what did we learn this week?
We we learned one um that we should cover the Adam Walsh and and Jeffrey Dmer angle. Do a do a one-part series on
that or one part episode on that. That's what we learned. And then what did we learn about the Adon Siad case?
>> Nothing. >> Nothing. >> [ __ ] nothing. >> Nothing. >> Hey, I do want to give a shout out. Um
>> we learned nothing. I want to give a shout out to longtime friend of the show. This is from yesterday's Columbus
Dispatch. For people not in the area, that's our local big newspaper here. >> Mhm.
>> Uh this was in Sunday's paper. Front page of the Metro and State section. We have a beautiful color
picture of our good friend Andrew Hall, who is a program director at the Ohio History Center. He is the gentleman that
has been in charge of uh recruiting true crime garage to attend the crime and corruption event two years in a row. You
know, it's only that crime and corruption event's only two years old and we've been a part of it both years.
He is on the front page of the metro and state of yesterday's paper for um I guess they had a soldout event recently
about bad med well it's called just bad medicine is the name of the article um but they had some kind of event where
they showed patent medicine from the 19th century and what patent medicine is is back in the day before we had like
the food and drug administration people would come up with these these cures that they would sell over the
counter and they were they a lot of them just contained high amounts of alcohol.
Like so you if you had some ailment you wouldn't go to the doctor. You would take this thing that you would buy over
the counter and really you're just dousing yourself with alcohol. Um but they had a had a neat little event. I
didn't go to it but uh it was neat to see our friend's uh picture right there on the front of the paper. So, I wanted
to throw an adab boy his way. Uh, regarding that [music] [music]

Adnan Syed, Adam Walsh, Jeffrey Dahmer /// Off The Record Episode: 74 Nic and the Captain discuss: Adnan Syed, Adam Walsh, Jeffrey Dahmer. www.truecrimegarage.com

Brief Summary

The episode analyzes the Adnan Syed case, focusing on Jay's testimony and the complexities of teenage behavior.

Key points

The Complexity of Innocence. Exploring the duality of Adnan's character and the implications of his friendships.
The Unreliable Witness. Discussing Jay's inconsistent testimony and its impact on the case.
The Missing Evidence. The significance of DNA testing and its implications for Adnan's innocence.
The Adam Walsh Case. The investigation into Adam Walsh's disappearance revealed troubling dynamics at home.
Impulsive Teen Behavior. The discussion highlights how impulsive actions can lead to tragic outcomes in teenage relationships.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Oh, never thought about that before.

Realization during a conversation about a case.

0:39WatchDec 19, 2025

Tension

50/ 100Some tension

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