Who Crucified the Pastor ////// 298 | Forensic Files

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have to do another ad. And that is enough of the business. All right, everybody gather around, grab
a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. As many as 1,000 people packed into an
Oklahoma church Monday to say goodbye to a prominent member of the state's religious community. Pastor Carol
Daniels was found dead inside a small town church late last month, apparently the victim of a violent attack. Daniels
suffered gashes to her neck and throat, plus stab wounds to other parts of her body. Daniels traveled to the church
every Sunday to deliver a sermon. Those who knew her are remembering the good she did in the community. She's always
been the same person every time you saw, always very sweet. Uh just always loved
God, loved people, just the sweetest person you ever wanted to know. Always supportive, always loved people, always
willing, you know, to jump in and tackle, you know, a task. Um always wanting to help people.
That was just her vision, her mission was always wanting to help someone along the way. During Monday's service,
mourners were asked to pray for whoever took Daniels' life. Some say the person responsible would have benefited from
spending some time with the pastor. There's absolutely no logic other than that person didn't know the Lord Jesus
Christ. And if they'd sat down and spent some time with Pastor Daniels, they would have come to know him and maybe
made some other decisions. A $10,000 reward has been offered for information leading to an arrest and conviction in
the case. Ed Donahue, The Associated Press. Mother and Pastor Carol Daniels lived in
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. Her son Alvin describes Carol as a loving mother, someone who was always joking and always
taking care of her family. She was an extremely giving mother and person. Back in 2009, Pastor Carol Daniels was 61
years old. On Sunday, August 23rd, she got in her car and drove 60 miles or so southwest to Anadarko, Oklahoma. This
was her routine for about four or five years. Every week on Sundays, driving 60 miles to Christ Holy Sanctified Church
in a rundown area of Anadarko. She drove to the church to preach or if no one was there, she would stay and
pray. Anadarko, Oklahoma is described as a small town that in 2009 was economically
depressed. About a half mile from the church is a neighborhood that was described as,
quote, a pretty high crime area. Troubled by drugs, including crack cocaine, and also having a large
transient population. Now, on the other hand, we have this beautiful person. We have Pastor Carol
Faye Daniels, who is a beacon of light. Described as a champion for the helpless
and the hopeless. There to serve God and the community. She kept the doors open each Sunday
morning, waiting there with open arms. Sometimes she would go out into the streets offering food and goodwill to
those who needed it most. Ask anyone in the small town, Pastor Daniels was loved. Yeah, but it was a pretty small
congregation, right? Well, Christ Holy Sanctified Church was a tiny church. It it was a small, aging white building
with a big black cross on the front. Now, they did have a marquee outside which listed the worship times as well
as Pastor Daniels' name and a simple message that said God loves you. Now, on August 23rd, 2009, Pastor
Daniels, after making the long drive to the church, she was seen at 10:00 a.m. outside of the church. Yeah, and she
won't be discovered until about 11:40 because retired Bishop Silky Wilson Jr. and his wife are going to arrive at the
church. Now, they get a little scared, so they don't go into the church and they call law enforcement and then
law enforcement is going to find the pastor. So, the way that this works is the Bishop Wilson
and his wife, they arrive around 11:40 a.m. at the church, okay? And this is a fairly regular meeting. It didn't take
place every Sunday, but this was a fairly regular thing for Bishop Wilson to meet Pastor Daniels at the church.
Right. Okay, so they pull up, everything seems normal and they get to the front door. The
problem is the front door is locked. Well, this is highly unusual. Um Pastor, I'm sorry, Bishop Wilson
couldn't recall another occasion where he arrived and the door was locked. So, he uses his cane to knock on the door,
but there's no answer. And Bishop Wilson said that the church was too quiet as if
no one was home. And this was confusing to him and his wife because Pastor Daniels' car was out front.
Now, he said that they shouted, they tapped on the windows, they even drove around the building hitting the car horn
and still they got no response from anyone inside the church. Yeah, I mean, I think that this seems a little off,
but think about it. You go to a small church, it's a small building, you know that your friend is supposed to be
there. You knock, there's no answer. And her car's there. That's all you need to
really get spooked, right? Mhm. Well, this is also not a great area. Uh I want to point that out. They have a
pretty low murder rate uh for that time in that that town, but this is not a great area. Uh this is kind of a rundown
side of town and there's uh to put it as as politely as I can, there's there's some sketchy people in
this neighborhood. Okay? So, what happens here is he has his wife alert the police.
Now, according to the incident report, the call that went out was for a welfare check at the church and regarding Pastor
Daniels. So, at approximately 12:00 noon, Officer Ashley Burris was dispatched to 305 Northeast 1st Street.
Upon arriving at 12:02 p.m., he met with the reporting party, Bishop Wilson and his wife. Mhm. Some of you may have
noticed the very fast response time. We should note that the police station is less than one city block from the
church. Officer Burris entered the building from the side door. Once inside, he discovered the
brutalized body of Pastor Daniels. The officer immediately called for backup and within minutes, Officer
Burris and two other officers cleared the building and secured the scene. Due to the heinous nature of the crime,
the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations were called in. Five officers waited outside the church
guarding the scene until the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations arrived on the scene.
Now, the State Bureau of Investigation, the lead agency in the case, tried to pull fingerprints or uncover even a
shred of DNA evidence at the scene. They got neither. What was the early information that came out on about the
investigation? Well, so there there were some details that were very publicly known very early on in the
investigation. And these come from statements of people working the case and people around the case.
Mhm. So, first we have Cherokee Ballard is the State Medical Examiner's office spokeswoman
who said, "A preliminary autopsy deemed Daniel's death a homicide caused by multiple sharp force injuries. Carol
Daniels suffered numerous gashes to her neck and throat as well as a stab wounds
to her chest, back, stomach, and hands. Her body had been quote staged in an unnatural position."
And then we have Dr. William Manion, forensic pathologist, said, "Carol Daniels appeared to have been left in
the form of a cross with both arms outstretched at her sides. Her head was nearly decapitated by the force of deep
stabs to her neck and throat." Mhm. According to local newspapers and their sources, the body of Carol Daniels was
staged behind the church altar. Daniel's clothing had been removed, possibly to hide evidence or as some
kind of trophy from the grizzly scene. Investigators say her killer methodically sprayed a dissolving
chemical around her body in an effort to destroy DNA evidence at the crime scene.
And then District Attorney Brett Burns said, "I've prosecuted over 50 murders. This is the most horrific crime scene
I've ever witnessed." So, I mean it sounds like it's premeditated if they're bringing some kind of cleaning solution.
Well, what's not clear there is it could have been something that was found inside the church itself. Yeah, very
true. Um and then I do want to offer up one final statement. This is from Jessica Brown, State Bureau of
Investigation spokeswoman, which going forward, just to save time, we will we will say OSBI.
Uh she said authorities do not have any suspects and are offering a $10,000 reward for
information leading to an arrest and conviction. She says, "Right now, we have more
questions than answers. The few answers we do have, we want to hold on to. That might help us in the long run."
Pastor Carol Daniel's funeral services were held August 31st in Oklahoma City. And as you heard in the trailer there,
there's like a thousand people turned out for uh her funeral services. Her son, Alvin Daniels, said, "All my
mother wanted to do was preach and her funeral would be another chance for her to spread the word of God."
So, any first thoughts there, Captain, regarding the early information that came out after the discovery of this
horrific murder? Well, even though it's a small congregation, the problem here with such a public figure is
these pastors are hired to do funerals, they're hired to do weddings. They normally counsel
marriage counsel people outside their congregation. And then you take a typical congregation,
let's say it only holds, let's say 100 people. Mhm. But the congregation could be 500 people. Or if you think about the
congregation members that only show up on Easter or just Christmas, now you're talking about uh
a thousand people. Mhm. So, and then you mentioned earlier, this is not a great area. So,
churches are known to take collections. The evidence by taking the clothes, the cleaning
of the body or the cleaning solution, Mhm. and the manner in which her body is found to me lends it to to be a
a murder for a reason. Mhm. But then her being a pastor and it being a church, you also wonder
is this um is the motive a burglary gone bad? Yeah, I mean really when you start to
think about this, you could have a a bevy of motives here. And I want to be clear, I've never been
to Anadarko. It could be the most fabulous place in the world. I'm simply going off of what it was stated in the
newspapers, the local newspapers at the time. I've been to Oklahoma City, great city,
but they were saying that this part of town is a high crime uh rate area. And like you pointed out there, you
wonder do we have a situation where this is either a premeditated murder by somebody that knew her and and wanted
her killed for whatever reason, or two, could this have just been somebody looking to to make an easy
robbery? And I say easy robbery because the way that they describe this scenario
and the way that Pastor Carol Daniels went about her business is that she would arrive at the church
in the the church's front door is unlocked and the doors are open to the public. Come in,
you know, seek if you're seeking worship, if you're seeking prayer, if you're seeking advice from the great
pastor, whatever. Our doors are open to you, all walks of life. Do we have anything that
we think is possible pieces of evidence? Well, we have a bunch of really interesting things here. Some of it
being evidence and some of it being speculation. But before we get into that, I want to point out something that
that we've already covered is what the the investigators were saying at the time that right now we have more
questions than we do have answers. And answers that we have, we want to hold on to for now because they could help us in
the long run. And that's where I think that there's some of this questionable movements and behaviors that we should
bring up here. Um you know, cuz I've seen on some message boards and some websites where
there is some speculation and people that that in a roundabout way suggest that they find the bishop's story a
little strange. That just finding the locked door, trying to get some kind of response from inside the church, that
this put him on high alert enough that he has his wife contact the local police. Mhm. So, I I think we should
dive into that real quick. Because what we have here is uh Bishop Wilson is an elderly
gentleman. We already said he's using a cane at the time. Some people have questioned
when the police arrive at the scene. Okay, so we have the front door that's locked, right? But we know from the
incident report that the responding officer entered the church through a side door. Now, it's unclear on how the
officer gained access to and through that side door. Because some people have suggested,
"Well, why wouldn't the bishop and his wife have tried the side door?" You know, hinting that it could have
been unlocked. Right. And we don't know from the incident report 100% if they found that
door to be unlocked or here's the other scenario. There may have been obvious signs that
somebody broke into that side door, right? And so, not only would the officer be able to access the building
from that side door, but that would also scare the the good bishop and his wife to say,
"You know, we're not we're not 20 years old, honey, and I'm not packing heat. Maybe we
shouldn't head in there. We don't know what we're walking into." Right. So, I think we should clearly point that out.
I've also found one bit of interesting thought and I and I'm I'm going to say that this is speculation regarding the
side door because I couldn't find other stories to back this up. One source said that the door was
removed as as evidence. Mhm. That at some point the investigators took that door off the hinges and made
it evidence. And the speculation being that if this would have been some type of
hate crime or some kind of satanic related crime, that there may have been something drawn or painted on that door.
And therefore, they removed it because that's something only the killer would know. Mhm. But part of my speculation on
this is going a bit of the other direction. I wonder if the door was simply broken
into. But again, that was something that the killer would know. That one the door was broken into and
and the possible method of breaking into that door as well. And that could be another good reason for removing it.
One thing that we didn't get to yet either, Captain, is okay, so you have what the papers are
calling the posing of the body. And we know that the we know that Pastor Daniels was stripped nude. The clothing
her clothing was not found at the scene. We know that a cleaning agent or some type of cleaning solution, chemicals
were dumped on the body. But on top of that, some of her hair was burned. And some of the articles that you read
will state that it was completely burned off, that they burned off her hair. If you read the autopsy, they burned off
a good majority of her hair, but she still had hair when she was found. Mhm. So,
here's one It's very strange. It is very strange. It's What I'm getting at here is it seems
like we have a situation where she's brutally attacked. And I'm not going to go through the autopsy
uh from top to bottom in this situation. Just trust me in my words when I say this was a vicious attack. And I think
the captain was getting to something there that that could very likely be correct that this could be premeditated.
And it could be somebody that either wanted to seek revenge against the good pastor or had it out for her for some
reason. That if when we talk about overkill, if you want to go find the autopsy and
read it yourself, you can. What you will find there is obvious signs of overkill.
And then on top of that, the killer took the time to confuse the scene, to do things at the scene of the crime and had
some time there. They didn't just flee. They didn't kill and flee. Whoever did this, they stayed with the
body for a little bit of time. All right. Well, let's go over the situation. It's T-shirt time. The cabs
are here. This is what doesn't make any sense to me. If that door has some kind of drawing on it, maybe some symbolism,
then is the taking of the clothes, is that symbolism? Is the burning of the hair
some kind of symbolism? Mhm. The way the body is laid out, is that some kind of symbolism? We We've seen this in other
cases where the neck The neck injuries are so deep it almost cause causes decapitation.
Mhm. Is are all these things some kind of symbolism? Okay. So, I do have some possible evidence, but I also
have some really good thoughts on all of that. What do you want to hear first? Well, let's start with the evidence and
we'll just keep those in the back of our thoughts. Okay. So, first we have a possible eyewitness. A man claimed he
saw the murder suspect leaving the church. This is Robert Richardson. Said he was across the street from the church
in Anadarko where the murder took place. Robert said, quote, "This guy was coming
out. He was covered in blood. Mhm. He had a ski mask on. He had a knife in his hand and it was dripping blood."
Richardson said that he was at a car wash. So, there's a car wash across the street from this church.
Mhm. And this is where he says that he was when he saw the man emerge from the Christ Holy Sanctified Church. He said
it wasn't until a few hours later that he found out what had actually happened. He said, quote, "A friend of mine said
Pastor Daniels got killed and that just hurt me to my heart. That was my pastor." Richardson said. Richardson
said he didn't immediately go to police right away because he was drinking at the time when he saw the man. And he
didn't want police to question his credibility. However, Richardson said he eventually
went to police and investigators and told them what had happened and they questioned him.
It's reported that Robert Richardson is homeless and was possibly living behind that actual car wash at the time. Right.
Neighbors said he makes a living doing odd jobs around town. Richardson says his story is the truth, but there are
contradictions in Richardson's story. Does he have a a good look at this individual? Does he
Does he think it's a female or male? Does he think it's a uh white man or black man?
Well, that's where we have some problems with Richardson's story. So, he was interviewed by local news, by multiple
local news stations. Right. And in these published reports, he gives a different story. Right. So, in one
report, he says that the blood-soaked suspect was black and bald-headed. But then, he tells News 9 that the
suspect was wearing a ski mask. Right. So, you wouldn't be able to tell It's one or the other, then.
Right. If the suspect had hair or not. That's That's the My pet peeve is when somebody says, uh
"This one time in college, we had this guy that came up and he was yelling at us because we're partying and he said,
'Look, uh I got some friends over and uh and we're having a conversation downstairs and we're trying to sleep.'
And it was like, 'Which one is it?' Right. It can't be both at the same time. Well, I I tell you what, I don't
believe Robert Richardson's story, but I do What makes you suspicious of him? Right. Well, I do like the cut of his
jib because he it was presented to him that they they're like, "Hey, there's contradictions in these stories that
you're saying." And he says, "If anyone doesn't want to believe me, they can just go about their business."
So, here's Here's the big problem with his statement. Not only do they not match up, but what I just read from are
portions taken from a news story. In that particular news story, it almost makes it sound like he gave this
statement to police later that day, the day of the murder or the night of the murder, maybe even the next day. Mhm.
But the problem with that is we know this now to not be true. So, this does not add to the credibility
of this gentleman. It just takes away from it. So, not only it does his story is it different depending on who he's
talking to, but he didn't immediately go to police at any time. And I know we have his statement saying, "Hey, I was
drinking." But from the information that I could find, he didn't go to police from anywhere
until 7 days to as many as 11 days after the murder. Mhm. Another reason why the
story is changing cuz he might just not remember. Well, and it's it's difficult to narrow
down exactly when he went to police because both the Anadarko police and OSBI, they refused to comment publicly on Mr.
Richardson's statement or if they even spoke with him at all. So, the first time I could find Mr.
Richardson popping up in the media was already after the reward money was announced, which was initially $10,000
and 1 week later was bumped up to $15,000. Mhm. So, you can take that for what you will.
That's likely not evidence. Second, police did recover video surveillance footage from a convenience
store adjacent to the church. This footage shows Pastor Daniels driving up in front of the church on
Broadway to park her car at 10:00 a.m. Mhm. Now, back in 2009, police were pretty tight-lipped about what was on or
not on that camera footage. For the record, this is footage from two cameras, both, keep in mind, a distance away, but
one captures kind of a side view of the front of the church, and the other camera is facing the other
direction. Now, the third possible thing we could talk about in relationship to evidence
is the murder weapon. We know by the autopsy findings that the murder was committed using sharp force.
So, very likely a knife. And judging by the report I read, likely a large one. Mhm. This knife was not found at the
scene. So, no murder weapon left at the scene. What they did find was a large knife
reported to be 6 to 10 inches in length recovered from across the street from the church at that car wash that we've
already mentioned. Now, unfortunately, we now know that this knife was eliminated. So, this this knife was not
the murder weapon. I don't know what cleared that knife, but it's been publicly stated that that was eliminated
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Captain, a belated birthday a happy belated birthday to you. There's a cheers. All right.
Through the glass. Happy 420, man. While we're on the topic of items that were not found at the crime scene,
we have to keep in mind that someone stripped Carol Daniels after killing her. The pastor's clothes were taken from the
scene. So, some have suggested that this could mean one or two of the following, that
either one, this was a sexually motivated crime, two, the clothing was taken as a trophy.
This would be possibly because the offender is a serial killer or maybe a Satanist. Mhm.
And three, the clothing was taken to eliminate evidence and or confuse the crime scene. Yeah, this seems like with
the cleaning solution that maybe the clothes were taken to get rid of evidence. I think that's the most likely scenario.
Regarding sexually motivated crime, there was no there was no sexual assault believed to
have taken place during the commission of this murder. Mhm. And I understand that it doesn't have to that does not
have to occur for it to be a sexually motivated crime. But, I'm with you, Captain. It seems to me if they're going
to go to if the killer's going to go to the lengths of spending time at the crime scene to remove the victim's
clothing, then they're very likely doing that to eliminate evidence and or confuse the crime scene. Now, regarding
the report of the body being posed, according to investigators working the case, there are only three reasons
Pastor Daniels' body would have been posed in such a way. One, it was a crime of sexual fantasy {slash}
frustration. This is the most common reason to find a body posed, sexual fantasy or to give
the killer sexual pleasure. Two, it was done out of anger and retaliation, where someone does
does this to get back at the victim and to further degrade them even after death.
Three, it was done with the intention of confusing investigators to make the scene look like one thing when it's
actually about something else. Knowing which can give investigators insight to the
killer. It is a key piece of evidence only the killer would know, which would be critical during
interrogations. Now, online sleuthers, some have added a fourth possibility. Pastor Daniels was
killed as a religious statement and her body was posed to serve as some kind of biblical tableau.
The interesting thing here is out of all of those scenarios, we have we have some that line up with the
possibilities in regards to removing the clothing as well. Mhm. And one of those
being to confuse the investigators, to confuse the crime scene. And I think that could be exactly what
we have here. But, I think what we what we've not got into is a fifth possibility.
Okay, so we have an expert who who was active in this case and he has written dozens of books on
the many facets of homicides, including an 800-page text that is widely known as
the quote Bible of homicide investigations. In fact, copies of this sits on detective desks across the
nation. This is a very popular um textbook. Now, this expert wouldn't talk specifically about Pastor Daniels'
case, but did discuss some of the clues left at the scene. And regarding the posing of her body, he
says, quote, if the body was posed, I can state unequivocally, it's extremely rare circumstances.
He says, less than 1% of all homicides present sexually posed victims. So, keeping that in mind, it seems more
likely that maybe she wasn't posed at all, that the body may have just been in that
manner, left in that manner for whatever reason, just by happenstance. And that people have speculated that she
was posed. And I think that's that's probably a pretty good conclusion to come to in
this without knowing for certain. Because you would have a situation where we have
a a murdered pastor found inside of a church and if she's found lying on her back with her arms spread out,
it may seem that somebody put her in that manner when after undressing her and and
uh doing, you know, confusing the crime scene, that she was just left that way, that it
was not intentional the way that she was found. Yeah, it's it it's weird and and
this door. I mean, this perpetrator, this uh manure-soaked wing maggot, did he did he do a drawing
on the door or not? Do we Well, we don't know. And and to be honest with you, I don't I could not confirm if that
story is in fact true, that they that investigators actually removed the door. So, without being able to confirm that,
I wanted to make sure we included it because I find it to be interesting an interesting portion
of the the investigation if it did occur. What without knowing that they even Right.
Without even knowing that it did happen, it's tough to speculate why they would have
would have removed it. Yeah, and you would think at some point maybe they would even release the drawing to see if
anybody recognized that kind of artwork anywhere. But, you would think that if there was
some kind of satanic drawing, then that leans all the other evidence towards that. But again,
is that to throw people off the scent or is that some legitimate piece of evidence we should be looking at? Well,
my whole thing regarding that door is I lean toward the thought if it was removed that it was removed because of
the method of how they they got in through the door. Right. got in through the door. Less likely
than a drawing because I think that this this investigation has had its its it's
been a roller coaster ride. There are times when it pops back into the media and it seems to be a very active
investigation. I think that at some point if there was a drawing, they would say there was a
drawing. They wouldn't tell us what the drawing was or, you know, go into detail
about it. But, I think they could clear that up because we have the investigators publicly speculating on to
as to the reasons why the clothing was removed and if the body was posed. So, if there was some type of drawing or
graffiti that was left on that door, I think they would know why the clothing was removed and the
motivation behind the murder and maybe the break-in altogether. Do you feel that the removing of the clothes is more
towards removing of evidence? 100%. Less sexual. Right, 100%. I I think that the
the clothing was removed because of evidence. I think there's a a decent chance that if a large knife was used in
the commission of this murder. We've talked about this many times before. A knife is a dangerous weapon not only for
the victim, but for the offender because a lot of times the offender will injure
themselves in the course of the attack as well. Well, If if they if they bled onto her clothes or suspected that they
may have, they removing those clothes would be key, then dumping the the chemical agent on the body to to further
degrade any possible evidence, and then the burning of the hair. It It's almost to me seems to be very clearly somebody
taking a lot of effort to Right, but to cover up the crime and and and to hide evidence. Because if you kind of
picture this You What I try to do sometimes is picture how I think this could have went down. So, let's pretend
that the door the side door was in fact somebody broke into it. Right. It's very likely that if somebody went
in there with the intention of murder, whether it be for revenge or religious purposes or whatever,
if they went in there to the church with the purpose of murder or robbery that led to murder,
Uh-huh. we know that the front door was found locked. It's very likely, we know that that she arrived at her normal
time. It's very likely she would have entered the church through that front door. The bishop was expecting to find
the front door unlocked. It was only when he found it locked that he was alerted that something might be going
on. I then think that he noticed that the side door was obviously broken into. And I think what could have happened
here is we may have an a killer that knew she would be alone in the church at that time and broke into the
church earlier, much like we had the uh Missy Beaver's case, where the the killer broke into the
church before the victim arrives. Right. She's now in the church. The offender attacks her, kills her,
locks the front door to buy time to to do all these other methods of the clothing, the cleaning agent, the
burning of the hair to remove evidence from the crime scene. Well, again, you go back to the knife being
dangerous to the victim, but also dangerous to the murderer. So, if the murderer bleeds onto the
victim's clothes, then that would give reason to remove the clothes. And it would give reason to remove the
panties. And I'm I'm going to stick on that for I'm going to I'm going to come back to
that. But also, maybe there was blood in the hair. Therefore, you dump a cleaning
agent, you then burn the hair. Now you're trying to burn evidence. Because I would say the removing of the clothes
is to cover evidence, but the fact that her underwear was taken, to me that leans sexual.
That this guy is going to go home and, you know, become a sausage milker, but the bra and panties being taken to me
Well, that's that's certainly a possibility. I mean, BTK, there there are other individuals that that do that
exact thing. Because you Like I said, I mean, but we don't know what they're trying to cover
up, right? We don't know why they're taking the clothes. Because it's possible that
they bled on her or or whatever, and then just thought, "Well, if I'm going to take the clothes to cover up
evidence, I take all the clothes." Right. And and potentially confuse the crime scene. Yeah. You know, confuse the
investigators as to what it is that they're actually looking at. And I think that whoever did this,
from from the evidence that's been made public, Yeah. if that was their intention, they did a good job because
it doesn't appear that that Well, as of 2009, I will say, it didn't appear that the investigators at the time had a
clear understanding of what the motive was behind this murder. Yeah. And one thing I do want to
point out though, too, is that Carol Daniels, she put up one hell of a fight, one hell
of a struggle. She was fighting for her life and defended herself to the best of her
ability. And I say that because I think that that's where the offender that the killer may have thought that
there's a there's a potential for a lot of evidence that they could have left behind because the
struggle was so was such such a tough one. And so, you you wonder where you go, "Okay, is this just some really sick
individual that's going to take all of the clothing for whatever purposes later, Mhm. or is this someone that's
just really careful that in that moment is able to be overly cautious. I've already risked risked
further detection by staying here longer to remove this piece and that piece, why
not just take it all so I don't have to get home and and worry what they're going to find at the crime scene." Yeah,
which makes you think that it's premeditation. And if there's premeditation, then it's
somebody that she knew. Again, we see that a lot of times when there's a knife involved, and especially
like take the O.J. Simpson trial or the O.J. Simpson case, and almost decapitation, and a lot of people
point that out to be some kind of rage, again making it personal. Um this is It's very difficult.
If If you really wanted to Okay, let's pretend that this is a premeditated murder
or a premeditated crime that that the offender knew would lead to a murder, Mhm. that you could really, I believe,
narrow your sus- suspect pool significantly. Because that would It would have to be
somebody that either A, knew her routine and knew what would be going on that day, or B, had a very good understanding
of that church and its operations and and how many people were coming in and out at that time of day. Well, it's
difficult to know when they get collections and when they Cuz sometimes churches will get collections for
multiple days and then do a deposit. Mhm. And then So, then you wonder, was there a big donation
of of some kind that she told somebody about? And then they went, "Oh, well, you
needed to deposit that." And then she goes, "Oh, well, we haven't deposited it yet." And that becomes your motivation.
So, here's some speculation that I put into this. If it were not I don't know the workings
of this situation, but the retired bishop that showed up that day, my first thought, had he not been retired and
knowing that this was a regular meeting, but it didn't occur every Sunday, Right.
my first thought was, is that when Pastor Daniels is supposed to turn over monies to the bishop?
And that somebody would have known that about the church and thought, "Well, this is when the This is when the money
is at its highest, right before it's going to be turned in." So, that's the most opportune time if I'm looking for
the most amount of money. With him being retired, I don't know that that would have been the situation,
but this was some kind of regular scheduled meeting. Right. So, I do want to circle
back to Robert Richardson, who we discussed earlier. He is also known as the Florida Kid
for those of you that like nicknames. This is the man who came forward several days after Pastor Daniels' murder to
inform police that he had seen the killer leaving the church covered in blood. He did add some pieces to the story.
Richardson also said that someone had been prowling around the church in the days before the crime, and that he in
fact warned Pastor Daniels about this. That's Okay, hold on. Cuz it seems like a lot of details of the day of and days
before, and that seems a little suspicious to me. Like why wouldn't he have come forward earlier?
That's why I really suspect that Richardson was just looking for the reward money. Okay. And what I mean by
that involved in the No, I think I think this is a dude that probably has fallen on
hard times, and he saw this and and probably wanted to help in some way, but he saw this or heard this on the
street and heard that there was a large reward and thought, "You know what? I'll
I'm going to go up and say that I saw somebody running from the church, and then when they catch this person months
from now, they're going to have to give me the reward Right. because I came forward and and I gave
them what I'm claiming I saw." Now, regarding Robert Richardson, many people believe that Richardson himself is a
strong suspect. Yeah, well, he seems like a real turtle burner, so. Well, another potential
suspect is one Michael Hinton Jr. Mhm. Mr. Hinton has a history of drug abuse and a past conviction for a violent
crime. This is first-degree rape of a minor under 14 years old. Now, his connection to the case is this. Hinton's
mother was a co-founder of Christ Holy Sanctified Church Mhm. was a close friend of Pastor Daniels.
Some have speculated that after his mother passed away, that she may have left the bulk of her
estate to Pastor Daniels and or the church, possibly enraging her son. Right. But I do want to be very, very
clear about this next point. No solid evidence of this has ever been uncovered. This is just pure speculation. Nobody
has There's no paper trail to suggest that his mother did in fact leave money to Daniels or to the church.
And while we're on the topic about the, you know, the church and its money, if if you didn't know the church
by just based off of appearance and and the location, this is not a church that I would anticipate would be holding a
lot of money. No, no, no. Okay. Um one of the more popular online theories states that Pastor Daniels was
murdered as some kind of work of a serial killer. And and this the online theory is very specific. Serial killer
Israel Keyes. Oh, yeah. So, according to Keyes, he committed crimes all over the
United States and he explained to law enforcement after he was caught that his work as a construction contractor
enabled him to move around frequently without suspicion. Keyes would monitor natural disasters
like floods, tornadoes, and hurricanes and then respond to the affected areas to bid on jobs to bid on work. Right.
Just 3 months before Pastor Daniels murder, Anadarko was hit by a series of heavy storms and tornadoes. So, this
could certainly have provided Keyes with a reason to be in the area. Also, worth noting though, Keyes was
reported to have several satanic themed tattoos. So, Yeah, that that I mean, that's a
very interesting theory there. He has And then we know Keyes is a giant turtle boner anyway, so Well, and he
also admittedly used chemicals at crime scenes to destroy potential forensic evidence. Mhm. So, have they done any
DNA testing or fingerprints? Cuz his um assuming his DNA is now in the system. Well, remember OSBI, they couldn't find
any fingerprints or DNA at the scene. Wow. They were searching for those two items
and they they very quickly figured out that they didn't have either of that. Again again, another reason why they'd
take the door though, right? Because if if you have all the all the clothes are gone, the hair is burnt,
you know, there's cleaning solution all over the body, then you go, "Okay, well,
we know they went through this door. So, let's just take the door and test every
part of it." Mhm. And you know, that's frustrating. So, one issue I have to present
regarding Keyes as a as a good suspect. Yeah. Okay, so let's keep in mind, first
of all, it What is the math that he was there at that time and this particular individual was
killed and he he didn't know this victim. Right. There's nothing to suggest that he knew her, knew the area,
knew the church. But he's a monster, man. Yes, he's definitely a monster, but but right
there, that's quite the stretch already. Then on top of that, Keyes seems to only
have targeted white victims. Yeah. And in in in his cases, the female victims were violently
sexually assaulted. Yeah. And his crimes were largely sexually motivated. And none of Keyes known crimes bear any sort
of religious hallmark either. So, it doesn't seem to fit his MO. Right. But but I think
any killer that has a bigger number of kills, there's going to be some outliers. Mhm.
So, possibly. And then again, then it's like well, the taking of the clothes possibly could become sexual at that
point. Mhm. Some other newsworthy items regarding this case, uh I found this particularly
interesting. One reverend said that the murder helped to motivate him to get a concealed carry license. Reverend Brian
Ball says he sometimes carries his weapon during his sermons and regularly carries when he is alone at the church
in which he works. It depends on how what kind of church you're the pastor of. But I but I think, yeah.
If you're going into buildings that are as big I mean, this church was small, but think about some of the churches
that these pastors and priests have to go into by themselves and there's multiple
entrance ways and access way exit ways and there's probably not a ton of security guards all the time. Probably
more, you know, security guards at the bigger churches like during business hours, there might be a couple,
but um they're they're there a lot by themselves alone. Well, and you have several different kinds of churches.
Some that are in troubled areas and they lock their doors and some that are in troubled areas and they leave the doors
open because they're there for the community. Right. So, that really puts someone who's really just trying to do
really good work as a potential victim when anybody could just walk through that door and be one-on-one with
somebody. I actually I applaud this move. I think that, you know, you say what it depends on what kind of church that
that you're running whether you should conceal and carry or not. I think I think an American church, you conceal
and carry. no, it was it was a bad joke, but I was you know, cuz you know, if you go to a
Baptist church, they're up and singing and and vibrant, you know, and if you go to like a Catholic church, they're kind
of like kneeling and sitting and kind of boring. Mhm. That was a bad joke. Well, some
other newsworthy items since uh we have the church, this actual church was torn down in 2010
just months after the murder Mhm. and in its place a memorial to Pastor Daniels was put up.
Uh we should also note that the FBI got involved almost immediately in this case.
And then we have Dr. Cooley Trant and I I don't know if I'm saying the name correctly.
My my handwriting scribbled on this note here. Mhm. This is the doctor that performed the
autopsy. This individual was fired and actually sued in 2010 not in relation to this
crime, not in relation to this case, but I think it's something Did you say the name was Cooley?
Trant. T It looks like I wrote t r a n t. Okay. Not Cooley Malik? Not Cooley Malik? No.
Um and then we have this situation which I find incredibly interesting. In 2012, Daniels mother, Carol Daniels
mother, who was then 85 years young, God bless her, Etta Dunlap, said one thing that has not been discussed is that her
daughter's purse and briefcase were missing from the church. Dunlap said that she has heard nothing
from law enforcement in several months. Quote, "I haven't heard a thing, not one
single thing," she said. "No one seems to be doing anything." And this is this too is interesting.
Dunlap said the only clue that her daughter provided before her death was that two people would often come to the
church when she was there. Quote, "Two men," she said, "would come to her church all of the time. One would sit in
the back and one would go to the piano and she told them that they would have to be saved or they could not come and
play the piano anymore." Now, she goes on to say that she never asked her daughter what the names were
of these individuals and she says to this very day, it it really bothers her. And she says, "I often worry
and wonder about those two people." She did go on to say in this same interview that she is confident that the
crime will eventually be solved. She says she's got a feeling that the person is going to come forward and confess at
some point. Well, I think that her gut feeling and I think for whatever reason, I think the universe gives us
answers sometimes that we need and this gut feeling that these two boys that were coming into the church are
important means something, but I also think the gut feeling that she had that this will
be solved, the information that came out in 2012 kind of points to this idea that it's
going to be solved at some point. Yeah, so there's been a lot of things that have come about in this case since 2012,
since that interview with with Daniels mother. And the first thing is that investigators eventually did release the
surveillance video to the public, which does show something suspicious. The security cameras at the nearby
convenience store captured a blurry white figure leaving the vicinity of the church at the time of the crime. Now, I
want to be clear about something. When we say blurry white figure, I've watched this video from time you
know, multiple times. It's a good distance away. It's almost like you're seeing like a
like a ghost or something. Like it's Right. You know, if picture picture you're watching something in black and
white and all you can tell is that there's something lighter than its surroundings and it's a human form
moving. Right. So, you're not you're not getting any description of this individual of of the
person leaving the church. So, it's very low qual quality video. This prevented investigators from making
any type of identification on who this person is. But what's interesting is what the video
does show, what you can depict from the video. And that is that there are several people out on the streets and
nearby when this person is fleeing the area. Right. So, you have several potential witnesses
that were captured by the cameras. Now, and these these people are closer and and and much more
detectable where they may have been able to identify some of these people and then speak with them.
Yeah, what's sad is in a lot of these areas that have high crime, um the people don't trust the cops, so
they don't come forward with information. So, what we end up learning from this is
that according to the district attorney, he says, quote, "There are a lot of people out at that time. Logic says
somebody saw something." Well, it took a long time, but people started to talk and some of them were
talking to the authorities. The DA says, quote, "They were hearing the scuttlebutt around town. They know
who did this. People were saying it was two people." DA Hicks says the two in question were
violent drug dealers and people were afraid to come forward. Hicks says investigators considered
several motives through the years. Eventually, they were calling it a foiled robbery
where the suspects, likely looking for drug money, came into the church and killed Daniels. In 2015, a woman offered
a potential break in the case. She actually witnessed a suspect with a black blouse
and a knife that had blood on it. And it was around the time of Pastor Daniels' murder.
DA Hicks says the woman led investigators to a shed located behind a home in Anadarko.
She advised that those items were taken into the shed and burned. Okay, so we have a witness that comes
forward and says, "I I saw somebody that should be suspected of this crime." Right. Saw them with the murder weapon.
Saw them with items that I believe were taken from the church and then burned in
the shed. She shows the investigators where the shed is. The problem is we're now 6 years later.
We're now 6 years after the fact. Right. They searched that shed. They can't come up with any evidence from
that shed to present uh to build a case against this individual. So, not only did that search come up
empty, the woman, the witness, passed away just days later after giving investigators that
information. Now, I believe that she was able to name the suspect. It wasn't just I saw somebody
that looked like this going in the shed. Mhm. she was able to name them because we do
have a report that says the OSBI polygraphed several witnesses and the suspects themselves.
And neither offered a confession. So, DA Hicks says, "It seems In regards to this case, it seems like every time
we take a step forward, we're taking two steps back." In 2017, at the request of DA Hicks, a
multi-county grand jury took up the case. But then another setback. The main suspect,
who was Denice Darnell Cooper, died of cancer before grand jurors could hear her testimony.
Hicks knew he wouldn't get an indictment. And now they would have to find another avenue to prosecute suspect
number two. At the proceedings, other possible witnesses were called. This included
then prisoner Kevin Mayhan. But he, like others before him, offered nothing of value. Now, I wonder why he
specifically mentioned Mhm. I wonder if he's actually suspect number two. Yeah. Because they never name,
well, to where I could find suspect number two, but they specifically mention him as possible witness was
called before the grand jury. He said nothing to them. Right, or he's a prisoner
informant, right? Mhm. Yeah, could be a a a a jailhouse snitch or something. right. Um So, when asked
uh when the DA was asked, he did say he thinks this cold case will be solved at some point. Hicks said, quote, "I look
at it this way, it is solved. My question is will we be able to bring justice bring it to justice?"
And he says, "I'm not going to stop trying." The DA's task force investigators are
still working the case. All those who loved Carol Daniels are still searching for justice. Anyone with
information is asked to call the OSBI tip line at 1-800-522-8017 or email tips@osbi.
ok.gov. And a quick quote from Bishop Wilson. Quote, "I want them to remember Carol
was a very faithful lady and she was a very sweet lady. And she's somebody everybody should have
gotten to know. I just remember a very ambitious sweet lady." This week we have some recommended
listening for everybody out there because when we were doing research for this case, this week's case,
it reminded us of three different cases that we've covered before. And I think that you'll find some very interesting
similarities between those three cases and this one. One is Missy Bevers' case. Also, we have Todd Kohlhepp, the real
estate serial killer. And we also have the case called The Devil Did It. And those are from 2018
and from 2017. For our back catalog, download the Stitcher app for free and you can listen
to episode 1 to episode now all for free on the Stitcher app. And check out on Stitcher Premium our weekly show called
Off the Record where we do updates and talk about true crime documentaries and a bunch of nonsense. Yes, it's a show
about nothing. Uh also, we want to give a shout-out to our friends at Looney and
Roo. And I want to make sure I spell that in case I'm saying it wrong. It's l u n i and r o o. Looney and Roo. They
make fantastic dog collars, fantastic dog leashes. You'll want to check them out if you are a pet owner. And they
have provided us with a code to pass along. Use code garage20 for 20% off to everyone that wants to
pick up one of their finely crafted dog collars. Yeah, check out looneyandroo.com
or I will post a picture of these awesome collars on our Instagram page. And we can't wait for you to come back
and join us next week. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

Source: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-sv3j9-aef396

Who Crucified the Pastor ////// 298

Part 1 of 1

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August 23rd, 2009 a beloved Pastor was murder inside a small church in Anadarko, Oklahoma. Pastor Carol Daniels was a champion for the helpless and the hopeless. She served God and her community, offering goodwill to all. This was a brutal and horrific crime. The early reports stated her body was posed, signifying a crucifixion. Nic & The Captain discuss the unsolved murder of a very faithful and sweet lady.

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Brief Summary

Pastor Carol Daniels was murdered in her church, sparking an ongoing investigation with multiple suspects and theories.

Key points

Pastor Carol Daniels' Tragic Death. Pastor Carol Daniels was found dead in her church, a victim of a violent attack.
Investigation Uncovers Gruesome Details. The investigation reveals shocking details about the crime scene and the victim's injuries.
Community Mourns a Beloved Leader. A thousand people attended Pastor Daniels' funeral, celebrating her life and service.
Contradictions in Richardson's Story. Robert Richardson's account of the murder raises questions due to inconsistencies in his statements.
The Murder Weapon Remains Unfound. Despite the investigation, the actual murder weapon was never recovered from the scene.
Pastor Daniels' Body Posed. Investigators discuss the implications of the way Pastor Daniels' body was found.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

A $10,000 reward has been offered for information leading to an arrest.

Reward for information in Pastor Daniels' case.

4:25WatchApr 23, 2019

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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