What the Neighbors Saw | Post Mortem | Forensic Files

Welcome to Postmortem. I'm 48 Hours correspondent [music] Natalie Morales filling in today for Anne Marie Green,
and today we are discussing the case of Gary Herbes who was reported missing by his wife in 2014.
Three years later, a dog discovered his skull in rural Wisconsin with a gunshot wound in the back of the head. Joining
me today to discuss his fascinating report is 48 Hours correspondent Peter Van Zandt. Thanks for joining us, Peter.
Hey, Natalie. How are you? I'm good, thank you. And this one really was riveting. Absolutely. And the notion
that this man in in rural Wisconsin, he goes out, sees his dog gnawing on something in the driveway, comes up and
checks it out and sees a human skull and calls police. It was just incredible. >> Now, Peter, this hour also features your
exclusive interview with a convicted killer. And it And this is one of the most revealing conversations about a
murder that I've heard here on 48 Hours. Yeah, over the years I was trying to add
it up. I've I've talked to about 19 accused killers. None of them has ever admitted it. Uh
we've had very confrontational interviews and things and gotten very close to getting them to to admit. But
in this case, uh Austin Herbes, uh Gary's son, not only admits it, but he gives us details
step-by-step of how he murdered his own father and left his corpse in the woods for animals to eat to destroy the
evidence. He He delivers that matter-of-factly, and it's uh it's chilling and yet fascinating. So, in
2017, after that dog dug up an unidentified human skull, police then went to the woods in Wisconsin. They
found additional human remains there, but investigators were unable to identify the victim until 3 years later.
And that's when genetic genealogists got involved, and they were able to use DNA
to trace a family tree, which then led them to identifying the victim as Gary Herbes. Gary's wife, Connie, had filed a
missing person's report for him back in 2014. Peter, what was her story back then?
Connie said that Gary just walked out on them, packed some clothing, took $5,000
in cash, but he left his cell phone behind. That seemed very strange. Connie said that he left in a gray Honda
vehicle that was driven by an unknown person. And Connie says that she was at home, and this is important later. She
was at home when Gary left her and only reported him missing when Gary's sister asked them to many months later when
there'd been a death in the family and they wanted to notify Gary. That's when they learned that he was missing and
they urged Connie to file that report. So, there was a gap in the timing from when he went missing to then when they
actually reported it. And then when investigators were able to finally track down Gary's wife, Connie, and their
adult son, Austin, in 2020, they said, as you did, that Gary walked out on the family 7 years earlier and
described him as being volatile and abusive. But investigators were immediately suspicious about the stories
they were telling because some of the details weren't really adding up, right, Peter? That's absolutely right. In 2020,
Connie told cops she was at the library when he left, not at home. Remember her first story, she said she was at home.
Also in 2020, Connie said that her .40 caliber gun had been taken, but she didn't mention anything about her pistol
being taken before. And Austin's version of events changed throughout his interviews. His first police interview,
he claimed a stranger picked Gary up and drove away. But in his second interview,
he said the driver was a mysterious man with tattoos who was sketchy. And during
a second interview, they both consented, Austin and his mother, Connie, to a polygraph test. Now, Connie didn't show
any signs of deception, but Austin did. And by this point, investigators had a hunch they were lying, but there was no
other evidence. So, they had to let Connie and Austin go, even though their their instincts told them, gosh, they
must have been involved in in Gary's disappearance. Well, the investigators then continue on with their work trying
to put the case together. They then go canvass the neighborhood, and that's when they were able to get clues from
the neighbors who said he was a confrontational and retaliatory guy. So, the neighbors, Chad and Kaya, told them
back in 2013 they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors in the middle of the night. They were
loading large garbage bags and what appeared to be a rolled-up rug or a carpet into Gary's truck. Yet, they
didn't report any of this to the police. Why not, Peter? Yeah, and and Kaya recalls that when they had observed them
loading up the garbage bags, her husband, Chad, said, "Kaya, I think they finally killed him." But
they were going off on a hunch. Since they did not see the body or any blood, they thought Gary, as the whole
neighborhood did, was a horrible man and in some ways potentially dangerous. The
neighbors also told investigators that, "Look, murder is never the answer, and that no one deserves to be murdered, but
they also hoped that these two would not be punished in any way because they felt
Gary was just that terrible of a human being." So, they speculated from the get-go then
it was Connie and Austin who killed Gary and that he didn't just walk out on the
family as, you know, Connie and Austin were telling people back then. Yeah, it's like that scene out of The Wizard
of Oz, you know, "Ding dong, the witch is dead, the wicked old witch." That's the way it was in that
neighborhood. And uh when they were watching Austin and Connie after he had disappeared, they were so happy. You
know, they were walking around with cookies and offering them to neighbors that they hadn't really spoken to much
cuz they said Gary always kept them indoors. And um neighbors also saw Austin and Connie, if you're ready for
this, setting up for a yard sale. And what was for sale? Well, it was men's clothing, Gary's clothing, obviously,
men's shoes, ammo boxes, tools, uh Gary's favorite ride-along uh lawnmower. And when Kaya asked Connie where Gary
was, she replied, "Uh he just didn't want to be married anymore and he left." Yeah, but the real crack in the case was
when a cadaver dog, Radar, then searched the former Herbes house in 2020 and detected the scent of human remains.
Now, as a dog lover, I love that you have two dogs that really helped be the key in helping solve this case. Yeah,
the handler, Dan Moldenhauer, told us that Radar is a German Shepherd rescue from Wisconsin.
And when she detects the presence of human decomposition, she will turn around, sit, and look right at
Moldenhauer. And I witnessed this myself. After all these years, Radar went through the Herbes house and
alerted at the very spot where the new owners said that she had seen this red stain on the floor. And at the time
Radar alerted and when we were there, she did it again, which is really something to see. The dog also alerted
at the basement sliding door that led outside, which is where, of course, the neighbors had seen the the two of them
bringing out bags and what appeared to be this rolled-up rug, which when they were talking to each other, they
thought, "Gosh, could there be a body inside that?" And all of the areas that Radar detected
were also areas where the Luminol glowed. 48 Hours people know very well, you spray this chemical, Luminol, it
detects blood and turn off the lights and they put a special uh uh light that causes that chemical to
glow, and all over that house it was glowing. Uh it looked like um you know, Times Square, and that told them this
was definitely the murder scene. So, even though, Peter, this was largely a circumstantial case back in November
2020, police then arrested Connie and Austin for Gary Herbes' murder. And when Austin was interviewed then for the
fourth time, that is when he finally said he shot his father and he alleged he did it because of years of physical
and psychological abuse. Now, you, Peter, were able to sit face-to-face with Austin. You spoke to him at length.
What was it like sitting across from him hearing all that detail? He was one of the most fascinating killers I have ever
met, and I can call him that cuz he admitted to it. He was charming, articulate, intelligent, a a great
storyteller, and a man who's spent all this time in prison. He's really thought about this story, and he has ready-made
answers for whatever you ask. He believes the killing of his father was justified, and he told me with with
without any emotion that if he could go back in time and the circumstances were the same, he'd shoot him again.
He tells one story during the course of the interview that there was this bloody
mess down there on the floor. We didn't put any of this in the show itself. His mother comes home and she sees it, and
they were both just matter-of-fact about, "Hmm, we need to clean this up." Uh but despite all of those years
passing, Austin never came forward, remember this, to tell the truth about what had occurred inside that house
until he had to, until basically he was confronted with, "We know you did this."
There's a really interesting exchange that I had with Austin that wasn't in the show that I want people to hear.
It's about his thought process leading up to his confession because it suggests that there was a possible cover-up here.
About 4 and 1/2 hours into the questioning, you finally do speak up and you say, "I would like to tell the
truth, but I need to talk to my mom first." Why did you have to talk to her? Was
that to fabricate another story? I think it was partially that. Part of my brain was thinking, "Well, I
need to talk to my mom and, you know, figure out what to say to get away with this."
Now, later on in my life here, I think I was looking for an excuse to tell the truth.
I think I was looking for a way to to confess what I had done. Because even though
I had had these years of happiness and freedom, it's a weight. It truly is a weight
having something like that and knowing that nobody knows. Hm. So interesting, Peter.
>> Yeah, to have a discussion on how to get away with this murder. Wow. He is a He is a contradiction all the
time. You You feel sorry for him in one moment and then others, there's this cold calculation that's going on.
Um so, that's what makes him so fascinating. Yeah. Well, Austin did say on the day of the murder that Gary and
Connie had gotten in to some sort of argument. Connie then left. He said she went to the library.
Gary then fell asleep on the couch and that's when Austin said he saw the gun under the skirt of the couch. He said,
"That's when he sort of went into this mode where he started to fear for his life, for his mother's life." He picked
up the gun and then he shot Gary while Gary was asleep laying on that couch. I want to play more of your interview when
you grilled Austin about his actions. What do you say that your life, while he was sleeping there
on the couch, was not under imminent threat? And that you could have picked up the
gun and left the house and gone to the police. You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't
legally self-defense. This was murder. Correct. What do you say to all that? I have to refer back to, again, 18 years
I've been told, "If you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know,
go your own way, I will find you and kill you." You believe you have no doubt, in fact, that when he
woke up, he would have been the one to pick up that firearm, he would have been the one to pull the trigger. Absolutely.
100%. Kill or be killed. >> Exactly. And it's a terrible It's a terrible situation to have been put in.
Kill my father or accept that my death is on its way. The question I still have to this day,
was it kill or be killed or was it kill and we'll be happy the rest of our lives
by eliminating this man who, by many accounts, was a nasty personality with a mean disposition.
And he says that he suffered abuse. He's asking others to understand that he was
protecting his and his mom's lives. Keep in mind, he always said, "I was my mother's protector." And he really did
believe she would be shot. But prosecutors said, "There's a lot of ways of protecting people these days." And
that Austin should have picked up the gun, gone to cops. But we've seen, of course, in other cases where victims of
domestic abuse uh did all the right steps and they still ended up being killed by their
abusers. Prosecutor's argued, however, "You can't let someone off easy for murder just because [music] they claim
that they were abused, or else anyone could say that." And as they told me off camera, "You could have a million people
murdered a year if that was a legitimate basis for killing someone." Welcome back.
>> [music] >> Now, Austin Harps claimed that he shot his father, Gary, after he alleges Gary
abused him and his mother for years. But, Peter, despite all those allegations, did police ever get any
reports of abuse or did family members become aware of any such claims of abuse? Prosecutor's say there was no
reported evidence of abuse and that the first time Austin and Connie talk about abuse is after Gary's body is identified
and a murder investigation is launched. And Gary's the victim's sister, Linda, and her husband uh hung out with them
many, many times before there was this sort of breakup with in the family and they never saw any evidence of abuse,
not a bruise, not a scratch, a cut. In fact, uh Linda's husband was a veteran cop of 30 years, trained to to to look
for signs of abuse. And he said whenever he saw Austin and his father, Gary, together
that that was a loving relationship and they had a great time together. But remember, and this is important,
Linda was estranged from Gary and hadn't seen him for years. And over time, who knows, the abuse may have gotten worse.
Yeah, and I mean, of course, the other side of that, Peter, we know with domestic abuse victims that they usually
suffer in silence or they fear that if they tell someone, the abuse will just get worse for them. And psychological
abuse, well, you can't necessarily see it. That It doesn't give you bruises or a black eye. So, this is what's made my
head spin around during the course of this of this investigation and it it spins to this day.
You raised the issue with Austin. We have a little bit more of your exchange. Prosecutor's also say
that there was no what they call real evidence that either you or your mother were ever physically abused by Gary.
Never called police, you didn't seek help from the court system, you didn't seek help from any social
agencies. And what do you say to that? For as many abuse cases that are reported to police,
for as many people who contact them and receive restraining orders against other
people due to domestic abuse and violence, I don't know the statistics, but I can
guarantee you there are just as many that go unreported. Not everybody has the freedom or the courage or the
ability to call the cops, to receive a restraining order. Why didn't you ever share with
a friend, "My father is abusing me and my mother. We We fear him." They could find no one to back up
your story. I had to hide it. I I had attempted to when I was younger and it brought me either being bullied
because I was a weird child, or just apathy. Wasn't their problem. And I I mean, I'm talking kindergarten,
first, second grade. As a child, I was like, "Okay, nobody cares. So, I'll just keep this to
myself." It's a compelling story. I can't tell you that it is untrue. It's just as as prosecutors who are
suspicious about all this say, "It only came out when their lives were on the line." And this was the only
defense in the prosecutor's minds that they could put forward that in some ways would create sympathy for them.
And and the notion that they had was that that could lead to a a lesser sentence. You then asked Austin
how he and his mother, Connie, decided to dispose of Gary's body. I want to play a little bit more of your
interview. This part didn't make it into the hour. We drive for I'd say about two two and a
half hours. I start taking county roads and there is a like almost like a square of forest and
then a field. And then you try to dig a hole, a grave? Yeah. What happens? In the process of doing so,
cars, you know, I I can still see the lights on the road of vehicles that passed by.
And I saw a vehicle go by and I heard the vehicle slow down. So, at that point, I got nervous and
I went back to the car. I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. What do you mean wildlife take care of
the Bears, foxes, they would devour the body, the bones would be scattered. Nobody would know.
That seems a bit barbaric. Absolutely. I was not in a state of mind that I ever want to revisit.
I was at the lowest I'd ever been. Both in my emotions and in my humanity. Hm. Dump the body so animals would eat him.
And um he says it so matter-of-factly even now. There's no emotion behind those words.
It's a It's He's like he's delivering a report. It It became, in a way, the perfect cover-up. You know, evidence is
in the stomach of beasts. And they also ended up getting rid of other evidence. According to Austin, after they returned
home, they cut up the couch into pieces cuz there was blood all over the couch. They put the pieces in plastic bags and
placed them in Gary's truck along with the rug. That's the stuff that the neighbors believe actually saw and drove
to a campsite where he and his mother burned the remaining evidence. They also disposed of the gun used to kill him in
a lake that's that was nearby. And after the murder, they did everything possible
to cover up what they had done. They lied to cops. And I said to him, "That's what criminals do." And he says, "Yeah,
that is." And did they ever tell you if they thought at all to call the cops and and,
you know, to claim even that this they did this in self-defense instead of, you know, trying to cover up what was a
murder? Yeah, I was a little surprised by this. Austin said that he and his mother
didn't call the police because they believe that cops are evil. Austin told me that he was made to feel scared that
if he did call the cops, he would be locked away for life. So, they lied to cops for years. Let's talk more about
Connie Herbst because she pleaded guilty to aiding an offender, an accomplice after the fact. She was sentenced to 2
years 3 months without a trial, but under Minnesota sentencing guidelines, Connie ended up serving just 3 months
behind bars. She was released in May of 2022. Now, in your interview with Austin, Peter, you raised the
prosecutor's speculation about whether Connie might have actually been the one to have shot Gary Herbst and that
Austin, as he said, he was always his mother's protector, was he perhaps the one who was then taking the fall for it?
Yeah, the prosecution really wanted to cross-examine Connie to challenge her about her story of if if she was at the
house or at the library, but because she took this plea deal, she didn't go to trial and they never got that chance.
And of course, we asked Connie for an interview and she turned us down. Well, Austin ultimately pleaded guilty to
second-degree murder and in 2021, a judge sentenced him to 12 years and 6 months. Now, Austin will be eligible for
release in 2029. Peter, were you at all surprised by the sentence? Yes, there's you know, discretion with the judge. She
heard his story and people who've listened to this podcast, you get a sense of of this young man, the
intelligence. You don't sense there's some demonic threatening thing in his personality. She believed his story of
abuse. The prosecution, honestly, was flabbergasted by how light a sentence was given to both Connie and Austin. And
consider this, in addition to the murder, Connie and Austin, they'd obstructed an investigation. They lied
to police officers. That's a crime. They desecrated a corpse. And you would have
thought those things would have been reflected in the length of their sentences,
but it was not. But as you report, Peter, which was so fascinating is hearing from the neighbors again, who,
you know, they hated Gary Herbst. And they were actually hoping that Connie and Austin would have to serve no time.
They didn't want them to do any hard time. I don't think we ever hear people being that empathetic and supportive to
defendants in a case of murder. Yeah, the the neighbors, the former neighbors were very supportive of of the
two of them. One said that she thinks Austin's sentence is is too much time and that it's wrong considering the
abuse. And another neighbor felt that Austin's actions were justified and he even offered to help him when he gets
out. He told me, "I might offer him a job." And they they they felt the Austin they got to know was not a threat to
society in any way. Well, one can hope that he's he's learned a lot from this experience and having the time to think
about [music] his actions. But thank you again for great reporting [music] and for joining us.
Thanks, Natalie. And thank you all for listening. Now, if you like this podcast, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify.

"48 Hours" correspondents Natalie Morales and Peter Van Sant discuss the case of Gary Herbst, who was reported missing in 2014, and an exclusive interview with his convicted killer.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

For video licensing inquiries, contact: licensing@veritone.com

Brief Summary

Austin Herbes confesses to murdering his father, Gary, after years of alleged abuse, leading to a complex investigation and trial.

Key points

Discovery of Human Remains. A dog finds Gary Herbes' skull, leading to a murder investigation.
The Chilling Confession. Austin Herbes admits to murdering his father in a chilling confession.
The Weight of a Secret. Austin reveals the burden of his secret for years after the murder.
Austin's Sentencing. Austin pleads guilty to second-degree murder and receives a surprisingly light sentence.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It was just incredible.

Natalie Morales describes the discovery of a human skull.

0:51WatchMar 28, 2026

Tension

85/ 100High tension

More from 48 Hours

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.