The Zodiac /// Part 4 /// 473 | Forensic Files

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[Music] Mike Morford is a true crime writer blogger researcher and podcast host he
co-hosts the True Crime podcast criminology he has extensively researched and consulted on the Zodiac
Killer and Golden State killer cases the morph as he is often affectionately referred to as is an expert on all
things Zodiac Killer and all things Golden State killer so Mike welcome to the garage and I want to start off by
asking you why are those two cases so important to you you've spent years researching both why those cases well
thanks off uh for inviting me to come on it's it's a pleasure and uh you guys are
one of the people one of the teams that inspired me to become a podcaster so thank you for that the Zodiac case I I
started out on actually reading about it in high school I was one of those weird
teenagers in the 80s that just the name zodiac and the Persona that came with it
I want to learn a little bit more about it so I had a book on serial killers that I read and and then I got the book
zodiac by Robert greith you know from there I just read it and did a book report on it and the the teacher wasn't
too happy that I picked that as a subject to write a book report on but you know something just the Sinister
aspect of of that case just grabbed me and the fact that someone would call themselves zodiac and write letters to
the press and then attack people wearing an executioner Hood just really reeled me in and I just it sort of stuck and
grew up watching Unsolved Mysteries and stuff like that but the the Zodiac was one thing that really really I attached
to and and stuck with before the Golden State killer ears ons you know the case with so many names was solved Joseph
James D'Angelo has been arrested a man who is I take a lot of joy out of seeing how frail he looks these days hopefully
his time is coming to an end soon he's like 75 or so years old when you started diving into the Golden State killer case
was that you kind of looking for some more zodiac cases I mean zodiac claimed that he would go on to kill and kill
again and he kept taunting us sending Communications with a growing number on it were you look looking for additional
zodiac cases is that what led you to Golden State killer not really there the Golden State killer before the East area
rapist and IR the thousand names he had I I was aware of the case because of some other researchers that thought they
might be connected to the Zodiac case I never did they're two different kinds of
killers and their MO and and just totally end opposite ends of the spectrum but I was aware of the case and
I used to communicate an email back and forth with the late Michelle magnam who obviously wrote pretty impactful book on
the Golden State killer case and she had reached out and asked if I had any interest in poking around in the Golden
State killer case and I told her you know thanks but I'm sort of wrapped up in all things zodiac at the time so she
went on down her rabbit holes in the Golden State killer case and then after she passed away I sort of reflected and
felt guilty that I hadn't taken her up on that offer so I sort of dove into the case and you know I knew different
people that were investigators and they opened some doors for me and I became friends with some of the survivors and
and victims of D'Angelos and that's how I sort of went down that that path do we
have an idea of how the Zodiac came up with his name or is it just something random well that's and that's sort of
the thing we don't really know he's the one that gave himself that name in one of his early letters he said this is the
Zodiac speaking and he signed most of of his letters with a a Crosshair looking cross Circle and there's a watch that's
a zodiac name brand watch and it has a Crosshair logo as its sort of as its symbol so if you put those together that
seems to me like the most likely place that it came from but there's all kinds of theories that he was maybe into the
astrology and stuff like that yeah and we see things like mathematics coordinates on maps
astrology of course horoscopes have been famous and popular throughout time especially in the late 60s so there's
all kinds of thoughts that can be applied to how this individual came up with the name obviously he's going to
want to pick something that sounds ominous he wants to be threatening and terroristic almost in in nature and so
it almost seems fitting to pick such a vague name but also something that sounds sounds sounds a little evil or at
least mysterious yeah that's that's my take on it as well now we all know that Killers can Inspire other Killers or at
least they tend to imitate one another on occasion and as far as the Zodiac goes some cases that come to mind
immediately for me are Like Son of Sam I've always kind of thought of him as a zodiac wannabe kind of a
sloppier dumb down version of the zodiac the Phantom kill case out of Tex Arcana sounds like early zodiac type
stuff and then just the idea of writing the letters and communicating with law enforcement and the the Press I mean
that takes us all the way back to Jack the Ripper what do you take Mike from any of these other Killers out there
what do you think zodiac took from any of these other Killers well with the attacks of of people in some of those
areas like on Lovers Lane where the Phantom killer struck or Son of Sam struck those are easy opportunities and
to find people that aren't paying attention they're out in isolated areas they're easy targets and I think that's
perhaps why he search for people like that and so I went searching for different cases across the United States
with Lovers Lane scenario attacks and they just started piling up so so many I couldn't keep track so that's that's a
trend that's that's been going on early back as far as back as the early 1900s where people would be attacked the key
difference is is Someone Like Son of Sam or Jack the Ripper sending letters and notes and
correspondences that's very rare So when zodiac did that you know that was rare you can go through hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of cases in California and and there were lots of bad guys running around but most most of them didn't want
to communicate with police they wanted to stick to their own their own attacks and and not give the police anything to
work with whereas zodiac seemed to Crave the press and I think that actually took
over as his main motivation and and comparing that to the Golden State killer case for example Joseph
D'Angelo didn't really taunt the police or newspapers he taunted victims because
he liked reliving the pain that he inflicted on them so he would call them years afterwards but a little bit of a
different thrill for him versus zodiac wanting to see his name in the newspapers I think that was a key
difference the first confirmed attack for the Zodiac at Lake Herman Road was in essence a success for the killer he
achieved what he set out to or what we can believe he set out to achieve anyway he successfully attacked and killed both
of the victims and didn't find himself in a situation where there was much of an eyewitness to identify him as the
killer with the exception of one witness saying they they possibly saw a white vehicle parked near David Faraday's
vehicle on that night that leads us to a similar but slightly different situation
at the next confirmed attack at Blue Rock Springs where he is unsuccessful in the sense that he leaves one of the
victims alive he intended to kill both of them we know that based off of his phone call he's calling to report a
double murder not realizing that he left one of the the victims alive Mike maou one thing I found interesting about this
attack in particular variations of stories uh and and what went down how the attack went down and just the the
couple of events leading up to the two of them being parked at Blue Rock Springs Park can you take us through
maybe not necessarily the changing stories or the different versions but it looked to me Mike that most of these
different versions are coming from Mike Mao is is that correct and and what are your feelings on on the different
variations of these stories yeah Mike Mao's story has changed a lot over the years from July 19 69 when it happened
till recently he was featured in a 2007 documentary that came out with the Zodiac movie DVD release and his story
changed quite a bit in essence early on he said that he had been picked up by Darlene faren and they decided to go to
Mr Ed's a local hang out that was popular with you know most younger people for whatever reason Darlene got
creeped out while there and decided to drive away and go get some privacy and they decided to go to Blue Rock Springs
Park which is very dark and again it's one of those areas where people might go to hang out to make out whatever um and
that's where they wound up some key things that happened were after they were there for a couple minutes some
some kids came in threw some firecrackers and stayed there raised hell for about 5 minutes and then left
but just after that a car came in and pulled up next to Darlene's car and sort of just sat there and Darlene and Mike
had the conversation do you know that person who is that and they didn't really know and after a minute or two
the car drove off so they sat there listening to the radio talking and then about 5 minutes later car came back that
they Mike thinks was the same car and it came into the parking lot pulled up directly behind them them someone got
out shined a bright light into Darlene's car blinding essentially Darlene and Mike and then he walked up to Mike's
side and they actually thought it was the police so they proceeded to start getting their licenses out and Mike
looked up and was shot immediately through the window and Darlene was shot both of them were shot several times
that's been consistent for for the most part the shooter got back in his car and
was about to leave even Mike started flailing around after being shot and the shooter got back out of the car and
fired two more shots into the Darlene's car hitting Mike again and Darlene and then this time he drove away that's
always been consistent that's what he said early on but in the in the documentary years later there's some
things that change he he mentions that they were being chased and pursued from Mr EDS at high rates of speed and and
that's not what's in the police report nothing like that he says that they just decided to go there instead darling was
driving and then early on they didn't know who the shter was when they were having conversation amongst themselves
but then he injects hey the name was Richard she said something about Richard and if you watch this documentary it's
plain to see that he's suffering from maybe mental illness maybe some kind of addiction I don't know I'm not I don't
know what he might be suffering from but I think that's affected his account of what's happened over the last you know
50 years in his initial report he's saying that the vehicle was very similar to Darlene so it would have either been
a Chevy Corvair or others have said maybe a Ford Mustang because they would have had similar body type and he says
it was pretty much the same color as Darlene's maybe a little bit lighter what are your thoughts on the vehicle
description well I think it because it's so dark out there um and he's probably his intentions are to make out with
Darlene probably wasn't paying a lot of attention and and I think a lot of cars back then looked a lot Alik so for him
not to be able to pinpoint the details of the car I I totally get that I understand that but I think based on
what he said it did have some kind of similar features to Darlene's own car the thing that jumps off the page to me
in regards to the first two attacks not only are they very close in proximity I think it was roughly about 2 miles
distance between the first double murder and then the double murder attempt that
left Mike mou alive when you cross reference the events of that night the stories I found Mike say that both
couples went to Mr Ed's restaurant and Drive-In prior to going in parking and I mean that just jumps off the page to me
because I'm I'm sitting there thinking if I'm some dude in my late 20s or however old zodiac may have been at the
time if you're looking for a car involved in Young Love Mr EDS makes a perfect sense to to
park there hang out there in in the dark hours of a weekend night or a Friday night for that matter and find your prey
there and follow them to where they end up parked yeah that's that's the happening place back then was Mr EDS you
know there's an interesting Connection in that one of the lake Herman Road Witnesses just not long before the
shooting on the road that night worked at Mr EDS um so there's that connection as well one thing that's very different
about the Blue Rock Springs attack in comparison to the lake Herman Road attack is that the Zodiac
then calls the police dispatcher and says hey I just committed a double murder here's
where you're going to find the kids in a brown car and by the way I killed those
kids last Christmas as well there there's a a decent Gap in time minutes missing there about 20 to 30 minutes
based off of our earwitnesses of when the the couple was shot at Blue Rock Springs and when the phone call came
came in what are your thoughts on what Zodiac could have been up to during that time frame I've always found it a bit
bizarre we know he wants to report it or else he wouldn't have called it in but it doesn't seem like he made a Mad Dash
from the crime scene to the pay phone which would have been depending on which route you use roughly 7 to 11 minutes
travel time he didn't make a Mad Dash to get to that pay phone any thoughts on that Mike yeah it's that's one of the
most interesting things about that attack because the call is probably at least 30 minutes
later probably closer to 40 minutes later um but it's you know rounding it it's around a half hour we can say that
and to go that distance it's it's only a few miles um and the phone booth was at
Springs and tallamy which is you know in a more populated section of town whereas
Blue Rock Springs Park is this dark undeveloped area out out in the valo at the time so
if the Zodiac wanted to get away and make a clean getaway and and just keep driving there's Unlimited phone booths
he could have called from but yet he called from a phone booth in valo which is interesting to me my my opinion is
and I try and put myself in the shoes of of of zodiac when he's doing that is that perhaps he would want to get rid of
his car get rid of his gun stash it because you know I wouldn't want to be driving around in a car with a gun in
there just in case someone saw me so I was thinking maybe he lived close to that phone booth and perhaps put his car
in the yard put his gun in the house and walked to the phone booth but there's you know again that's that's speculation
but he certainly could have made it out of valo if if he didn't live in valo and
wanted to get away and then called uh from a different phone booth do you think he called police to mimic somebody
like Jack the Ripper or or do you think it was simply because I committed these crimes and because it's stranger on
Stranger crimes the police might not make the connection that it was me yeah I think maybe a combination of that I
think number one he wanted the attention he wanted police to know what he had done I think it was a way to rub salt in
the wounds of these police officers to to say hey um I did this I'm bragging about it and and there's nothing you can
do about it the phone booth was actually not far from the police station which was interesting so he might even be able
to see police when they finally got the call racing out of there and maybe got some kind of thrill from
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2023 [Music] do you think that he was local to Vallejo cuz I found it interesting that
in the phone call he doesn't just say Blue Rock Springs Park rather he gives directions to find the victims yeah if I
if I had to guess it's it's almost like he didn't know the name of the Park yeah
he he does direct them pretty well and if he would have said Blue Rock Springs Park obviously they they would have
found it but he gives them specific directions now I I wonder it could be because maybe he does live there he
knows the area and he knows how to direct them there easily but it also could be that he wants him to have no
doubt that he did it and he's going to direct them right to the bodies and at the time he thinks they're they're going
to be dead but you know Mike Mao survived and I think he wanted to get them there as soon as possible so he
could Revel in in what he had done and very interesting as well that given Mike Mao's description of the shooter you
know when the shooter comes back and then shoots Darlene twice and shoots Mike again two more times he's able to
get a description of what this guy looks like and if you know given what took place in the second attack we have to
believe that the first attack with no survivors likely went down very similar so So based off of that we can assume
that in the description Mike gives us Zodiac's not using any type of Disguise at this point and yet the next attack at
Lake Beres is going to be significantly different where the guy is disguised from head to toe is this guy is he
evolving why is he changing well that would on my part that would be speculation but I think that the most
likely reason is he realized after Blue Rock Springs he left eyewitness an eyewitness to the the crime and then the
next attack at at Lake beresa he's attacking during daylight hours so he's already left the witness he knows that
and now he's doing an attack during the daytime so I think maybe to to keep himself from being identified if
something goes wrong or if a witness goes by he's got that hood on and and another reason could be just to scare
the [ __ ] out of the people is attacking because a guy walking up to you with that kind of Executioner's hood on and a
gun in his hand saying everything's going to be okay I you know if it was me in that situation I wouldn't I wouldn't
believe them but he tried to calm them down when he attacked there and that's what he was wearing yeah I almost feel
like it had the mask had two purposes like you said one it's going to scare them more and it seems like
he's loves to see people's reactions but also if if they do survive they can't identify him yeah I think it it
definitely serves multi- purposes and and I think he was very theatrical we know that from a lot of the clues and I
think he probably enjoyed making that hood it had the Zodiac Crosshair logo on the on the chest and he never mentioned
you know two Brian Hart now Cecilia Shephard uh at Lake Bera that he was the Zodiac it never came up
um and and maybe that's cuz if something went wrong he didn't want uh anyone to know that he was the Zodiac by that
point and connect him to another crime but it was you know later determined after he uh wrote on the side of their
Corridor that sort of changed everything and and they knew it was zodiac do you have any thoughts on what the mask was
made out of or the account varied from from Brian he he said it was made with care it wasn't just like some plastic
bag that someone spray painted a white circle on he said that the the Crosshair logo was stitched uh very nicely and
professionally almost on the front and the hood uh was was made with carrot was draped over his entire shoulders and
face and there were a clip on sunglasses that were attached to the to the mask itself so he pointed out that it was
definitely made with care it was made um with some kind of professional uh quality it wasn't just
some some bag that was had white paint on it or something like that that's very interesting because often times with
these serial killers we will find that someone killing in the nature of someone like the Zodiac where they're going out
and they're killing people in a park near the lake or or or at Lake Herman Road or at
the Blue Rock Springs Park they're going out and they're finding their victim and
they're killing them out on the streets or out in public in these you know uh secluded areas usually that suggests
that they cannot kill at home they cannot abduct people and bring them home that they don't have privacy that they
don't have their own place but then everything else that the Zodiac does implies that he does have a certain
level of privacy the making the mask and disguise with care that's something that
took time the putting together the ciphers and the letters that he would later send that takes time and and and
it takes especially with the ciphers and the the letters I've seen it suggested that he probably had what he considered
to be some type of Workshop that maybe maybe if he did live with other people he had to keep under lock and key or or
guarded very tightly but it's it's weird the contrast between the two Natures of
the Beast if you will I've often thought about that but I I also wonder if it's just simply location a lot of those
housing developments in California you know where like these little Cracker Jack siiz houses and they had really
small yards so it could be possible where he's going well I have privacy with with inside my house but I don't
have privacy on the outside cuz the houses are so close together yeah that's an interesting point and in one of his
letters he did mention storing something in his basement and police seized on that and thought maybe that's a clue
because most houses in the Bay Area did not have basements so they thought maybe
he had a little workshop down there someplace where he could get away from anyone else in the house and and Tinker
around down there but then again zodiac wasn't always honest in his letters so it could have been an attempt at
misdirection maybe didn't have a basement but that was something police were interested in I think it it also
goes into what kind of killer he was whereas you know someone like a golden state killer wants to spend time with
his victims stay there terrorize them stretch it out as long as possible get them alone the Zodiac never had an
interest in that kind of activity he wanted to attack quickly and get out so I think perhaps
he never had an intention of bringing them back to his house or something like that I think he was more of a of a
thrill killer that got a thrill out of the attack itself and then later on reliving it I think that gave him some
satisfaction yeah that's very interesting because yes I think he was a thrill killer but I also think he
executed the first murder so easily that by maybe contacting the police it was another rush because it was another
point in the crime where he could get caught yeah and he he was about all about cat and mouse activity with police
and and getting them to engage with him and there's some evidence that he was inspired by comic books and movies like
The Most Dangerous Game and I think he thought of himself as this villain or made himself into this this villain
called zodiac and I I think part of the the fun for him part of the thrill from him was that interaction with police I
mean his murders confirmed murders anyhow they range from December 68 until October of 69 but then he's got a letter
writing campaign that stretches until 1974 so he at some point it seemed like the thrill of uh the interaction with
the police and the Press was his letter writing and not so much the murders so it seemed like he got some kind of
pleasure out of out of that part of it could you list some of these comic books you think the Zodiac was reading yeah
there's there's one called and it's a Tim Holt comic book and and to give you a little bit of a backstory he sent a
Halloween card to reporter Paul Avery and in that card it was written by fire by rope I'm trying to remember it off
the top of my head but it was laid out in in a specific image and there's a comic book by Tim Holt it's a DC Comics
one and I don't remember the title of it but it's if if you Google it you'll find
it and there's a wheel on it and death by fire death by knife death by gun death by rope it's the same things
mentioned in um the the card to Avery so from that it's almost definite that's where he had to have got that from when
you base that when you base on some of the other Clues he mentioned uh the short story The Most Dangerous Game he
makes references to theatrical stuff like the Macado um so it seems like he was in his own Fantasy World um and this
this person that he created this Persona I I really think he he wanted to be some
kind of arch villain or be known as as one yeah I just looked up the Tim Holt comic so it looks like it's it's
actually titled Tim Hol I think he's supposed to be maybe the hero and it's issue number 30 according to what I
found but it's you're right it's the you have a man there and I guess his name is
red mask he's tied up and there's a wheel of chance behind him and it's as you said death by gun death by knife
death by rope and yeah it's very very theatrical very zodiac like and it appears that this comic may have some
value because it has some linkage to uh the Zodiac name well and also around that time period there was a lot of
comics that were you know these Detective Comics that's where we eventually get Batman from I wonder if
there's other Comics that he was influenced by that people just haven't got the references yet yeah that could
definitely be the case and I I think at on the very least we can tell that he's into fantasy stuff you know between the
theater and the the comic books he's got perhaps he's living in a uh a fantasy world you know when when I I look at it
as when most of these victims are young couples being attacked they're out enjoying each other's company making out
doing whatever those couples do he's home reading comic books and this is his world uh so he goes out and Strikes
against those people that are doing the things that he wishes he could do yeah it's very and the captain and I were
talking about this earlier it's very comic book theatrical like with the Zodiac he's given himself this name the
Zodiac he's given himself a logo the crosshairs and then he's supplying all these
threats to Via the uh newspapers and such and then the costume at Lake beresa it's almost I mean that's that's what a
superhero super villain is the the name the logo the costume now with you had mention the confirmed five and there's a
lot of suspicion that there are other attacks and we can get into that later but lay down for us why these are the
confirmed five murders of the Zodiac Killer they're they're linked by emo and by
handwriting there's some latent fingerprints along the way there's some palm prints on some of the letters but
police really haven't said publicly if any of those prints from various scenes or various letters match each other so
we know that they're linked by by handwriting and by Theo you know in Lake Herman Road once he claims
responsibility for that along with uh the July 4th attack you know he we have a handwritten letter he's detailing both
crimes he's accurately describing both crime scenes so those two are linked together then when you get to Lake
beresa you know he's doesn't say he's zodiac but he's wearing a zodiac cross symbol on his outfit and as he pleas the
scene he takes the time to write a taunting message on Brian hartnell's door and it has the zodiac symbol and
the writing matches the writing and the letters and then we move forward to the murder of Paul Stein which is the most
unlike the first sets of crimes here we have another letter so the handwriting again matches the
previous ones this time he actually sent a piece of bloody shirt to the Press along with the letter so you know he's
confirming that yes I killed him here's a piece of his bloody shirt they verified it was so you have all of these
different letters and the MMO of calling and and writing to the Press linking everything here not like we have a DNA
like we would have today uh or clear-cut fingerprints um but all of this stuff combined tells them that the same person
was all of these different scenes and is responsible for all these crimes do you
have a ballpark number of crimes that you think the zodiac is responsible for or do you think these five are the only
signature crimes from the Zodiac well there's crimes that he definitely hinted at that he was involved and and I think
he had a habit of trying to catch uh attention for other cases to to prop himself up and uh make it look like he
was even more of a a villain than he actually was you know I try not to wander too far out of the the the five
murder victims we know of but you know I do look at some earlier crimes uh in that area and then in Southern
California especially there's some earlier crimes that could definitely be him but there's so many bad guys running
around in California at the time there's so much crime that it's hard to to go off because then you start looking at
well this crime looks exod and this one has some aspects um so I try to stick with the ones that have the closest MMO
to to what we know zodiac did what are your thoughts on zodiac mentioning Deer Lodge Montana to the victims at Lake
beresa I think that's a a really important clue but the the thing I need to point out is is that Deer Lodge is
not necessarily what he said Brian obviously was shaken up he was scared he was badly wounded um so he when he was
telling police word by word the conversation he said it was something like a two-word name in Montana like and
he's trying to you know come up with ideas and someone suggested Deer Lodge Montana and he said yeah that might be
it but there's there's been reports that it might have been a farm Lodge it could
have been a Red Lodge uh something with two words in in the name of of the town so it's well while most people settled
on it being dear Lodge it's not 100% proof that he did say Deer Lodge but you know there were no Escape prisoners as
the story that he gave them at the time from Deer Lodge at that time so I think it's it could have been just hey I'm
going to tell these people's story about a something I read three years ago about
some kind of escape and I'll tell them you know just to calm them down and get them to cooperate and and what he told
them worked and they cooperated yeah some suspect that zodiac was a bit of a master of misdirection and therefore
dear Lodge Montana or saying just the state of Montana in general would be another example that he might be trying
to misdirect people should somebody survive because what Zodiac has learned about himself by the time of the lake
beresa attack is that he's not perfect that he did leave a Survivor a surviving victim
in his second confirmed attack with Mike Mao surviving that attack and let's take
that a step further because there's some thought too that with the brown car because Vallejo police said they
actively said this in the newspapers at the time they gave a a brief description
of a a young white man and a brown vehicle that they were looking for at the time and he later zodiac later in a
letter confirms this brown car saying oh well yeah somebody saw me in this pay phone
when the when I hung up the the phone the the phone rang and this drew his attention to me and that's when this
witness saw me in the pay phone and saw my brown car and I love the idea of maybe as you pointed out it's dark Mike
Mao has just been shot so several times he's traumatized maybe he doesn't know the color of the vehicle couldn't see it
and maybe zodiac loves this and goes oh they're looking for a a white guy in his
late 20s in a brown car oh well I'll confirm for them that I have a brown car when in fact I I do not yeah and what
what perfect way to divert the police and get them looking down a totally blind alley and he and why would you
describe the witness that that so he says that there was a a a black man that was shaby dressed saw him in the phone
booth they never identified anyone that reported seeing someone in that phone booth but it sounds to me like that
could easily be I'm going to make this fake witness up so they're spinning their wheels looking for this witness
that doesn't exist I don't know why any anyone that had just killed or thought he killed two people would volunteer
that information willingly I always F thought too given the both of the first attacks took place on Friday night in or
around Vallejo again only separated by about 2 miles of distance or so I always thought that that in a sense was a bit
of misdirection as well that he he thought that he may have found the perfect place to kill it worked out the
first time let's kill there again now people think that I'm local to Vallejo and that's why I always felt like he
purposely made the call from a Vallejo pay phone yet didn't know the name of the park where where he shot the two
kids it it seemed to me this is the early stages of some of this misdirection yeah it could it definitely
could be that and I I sort of go the other direction I sort of go with you a lot of killers start out close to home
and then expand from there you know you've got someone mentioning these two areas I'm going to attack they're so
close together like like you're saying and then call from the the the phone booth in the same town what better way
to get people looking in valo one thing that's interesting is just about all of the letters zodiac mailed were
postmarked on weekdays from San Francisco and and most of his attacks the exception of Paul Stein were on
weekends outside of San Francisco so it does he live in San Francisco and he hunts on the weekends in valo or is it
the reverse does he live in valo and he's working in San Francisco during the week I think one of the two is is the
most likely scenario if you guys had to bet would you bet that zodiac is single and living alone or do you think zodiac
is married I wrestle with that especially in the wake of the Golden State killer case I you know I never
thought the Golden State killer was going to be a cop I never thought he would have a wife and kids so that sort
of has made me go back and forth on the fence with zodiac I I would tend to think that he's a loner that wants to be
out with a girl on a date in in a Lover's Lane parked in a car but he's not he's the one stalking those couples
and attacking them so I tend to think that he he was one of those loner types that didn't have successful
relationships but again after seeing what happened with the Golden State killer case nothing would
surprise me he could have had a big family and a a nice job and everything else well I think uh I think Mike is
right and I think that we can see some of that in his crimes itself we we definitely see Overkill in the women
and that's why we have more female victims murder victims and we have two situations where he
attacks a couple and and twice a male victim survives so the female is definitely the receiving the brunt of
his anger in those attacks and as Mike is pointing out he is he's he's attacking and killing essentially what
he envies Young Love parked in a car somewhere is what he would have like to have been doing when he was a teenager
or in his early 20s he wasn't capable or wasn't success F in that realm and so he
this is this is his lesson to you uh general public this is what you get when you park out in the middle of nowhere in
the dark at night in these lovers Lanes this is this is what you get this is the
lesson to be learned don't be out there at night they're achieving something he wished to achieve but did not and then
when you take it to how is he living who may be living with I think that he probably had some brief relationships
with women and they they failed and didn't work out and that only added to his anger toward the the female gender
and I think that a lot of his actions at least once we get past the double homicide or I'm sorry the the second
attack at Blue Rock Springs so this would be now we're we're at July 4th 1969 I think
after this point he he has a certain level of privacy he has a certain uh ability to spend a lot of time working
on these letters these ciphers the costume that he built for lake beresa so he has time now that may mean maybe he
lived with his mom alone and and had the run of the house for most of the time but yeah I think that's what's
interesting about the makeup of of this guy I think he had some level of privacy
and maybe that's because he was unsuccessful with with women or traditional type relationships well and
since you bring that up my question do you put a zodiac uh younger or older than 30 I can say with all confidence
today he's older than 30 oh I'm just saying because it it seems to me like somebody that you know any
friend of of mine or or people I've talked to that you know look back on high school and that it wasn't the best
time in their life normally by the time they're 30 they're they're over that and
they could really care less they don't hold a lot of resentment towards that that's why I always wondered is zodiac
in like mid 20s or late 20s and he's still uh angry about his unsuccessful attempts with women well you have to be
an extremely angry individual to do any of the things that he's doing so he's he's not normal like the normal people
that you just discussed he he's not going to get over any of this and that's obvious from his crimes so wi with the
in regards to his age one we have several crimes where he's described as being in his 20s late
20s maybe 25 to 35 this is from surviving victims and from uh the phone calls he made
where the dispatchers are saying he sounded to be of this age 25 to 35 Mike uh you you take it from there yeah I I
know that the Nappa dispatcher uh the police officer that took the call from him after Lake barasa described him as a
student voice um uh someone in their in their early 20s Brian Hartnell described
something in along those lines too not a real deep mature voice but more of a a younger person but again people have all
kinds of voices and and you can't always put a a voice with a face when you see it so we can't always go by that but
then you've got the eyewitnesses as you talked about and the possibility that officer Falk uh saw zodiac after Paul
Stein's murder there he thinks he's a little bit older and it it's interesting uh in in the sketch that came out of
zodiac after killing Paul Stein the original estimate in the original sketch was estimating the age to be 25 to 35
and when you when they amended it it moved it up from 35 to 45 so I I sort of look at the 25 to
45 window I know that's a big spread but I I sort of feel that sometimes some of the things he does is is very
juvenile um I look towards a younger person and and other times some of the things that he's interested in seem like
they might be more of a of a mature person um so like the makado Opera you know like nowadays I try and compare it
I don't think there's any kids out there today listening to Opera and if the same
thing is true back in 1969 I would I would think that that might be more more mature person so I
sort of wrestle myself with with whether he's younger or older yeah he definitely
did some things that come across to me as very immature I've said it before I'll say it again I don't trust anybody
that doesn't use their real name well and Captain brought up a good point too he he said that it's almost if
Zodiac's heart wasn't in the actual killing he he'd leave before people were actually dead instead of staying there
you know ensuring they were dead or shooting them in the head it's almost like he was squeamish about that part um
and I I think that goes back to he is playing this villain he's putting this villain out there the villain has to
have victims so he's got to do that part even though he may not be committed to it but after a while he realizes hey
I've built this Persona up I built this reputation up people know I mean business I'm a killer I don't even have
have to kill anyone anymore now I can just send letters and I'm going to get the attention I've been craving that I
didn't get in my in my everyday life just by writing letters now well there's a good chance he almost got caught in
the Paul Stein attack the taxi cab driver yeah we see a lot of times with serial killers
that they take souvenirs from their victims or like you said in the Golden State killer case he's harassing victims
zodiac is harassing police officers it's he didn't seem to take souvenirs it's almost like his victims didn't matter so
much to him it it wasn't personal towards the victim yeah there's no real evidence of him taking any kind of
souvenirs taking belongings of the victims uh we don't see any of that whereas uh the Golden State killer would
do that kind of stuff so definitely two kinds of killers and it seems like you know someone like D'Angelo has a a um a
connection a permanent connection to the victim whereas zodiac maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong
time and he needed to to kill someone to get credit for [Music] it so much more to get to tomorrow
please join us back here in the garage and if you need more of the Captain and the colonel in your earballs check out
our bonus show called off the Record it's on Stitcher premium thank you to you Captain thank you to Mike for
joining us in the garage you all better join us back here in the garage tomorrow
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The Zodiac /// Part 4 /// 473

Part 4 of 5

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In the late 60’s and early 70’s a hooded serial killer terrorized the San Francisco Bay Area. The killer told the press and police to call him the Zodiac. Few cases in modern True Crime have been discussed and speculated about more, especially on the west coast. Join us in the Garage with our good friend Mike Morford from the Criminology podcast as we take a deep dive into Zodiac’s communications with Melvin Belli and the still unsolved murder of Cheri Jo Bates. Tapping into Mike's extensive Zodiac knowledge we discuss the evidence, the suspects and of course the “what ifs.”

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Brief Summary

Mike Morford discusses the Zodiac Killer and Golden State Killer, exploring their methods and motivations in true crime history.

Key points

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True Crime Garage Introduction. Join Nick and his co-host as they dive into true crime stories with a refreshing beer.
Mike Morford on Zodiac and Golden State Killer. Expert Mike Morford discusses the significance of the Zodiac and Golden State Killer cases.
Zodiac's Communication with Police. The Zodiac Killer's unique need to communicate with police sets him apart from other killers.
Zodiac's Theatrical Nature. The Zodiac killer's choice of disguise and theatrics suggests a desire for control and fear.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The Zodiac case just grabbed me!

5:14WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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