The Zodiac Killer (Part 2) | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. I didn't like the look in your eye when
you were saying that at all. That Mikey said nope. Everybody's just shaking their head at
me like no, absolutely It's creepy. You went like Like she got low sort of. No. Yeah, I just wanted to be weird
about it and I succeeded. Get your hats. High five across the room. Woo. That was weird.
Yeah, I don't know. I'm in a weird mood. It's same. Same. Weird day. Yes. You know? Maybe hold on.
Hold on. Everybody sit tight. Guys, just hold on a second. Just pull over, okay?
You know what? While she's looking that up, we had our 666th episode recently. 666. The mark of the beast.
Wait a second. Oh. Mercury is out of retrograde. Oh. Doesn't feel that way. I know. Well, we're in the after effects
right now. Okay. It got out of It stopped retrograding, I think that's how you say that right, on
April 7th. Right now I think it's the April 9th. So we're still feeling the Yeah, after effects.
We're circling the the toilet drain. Sometimes I feel like that's when it's the worst, is the after effects.
Yeah. So I maybe that's why we feel so weird and why everybody's so annoying. It also
might just be like facts. Everything's just like you know when you have that that moment where everything
just feels like it's taking [ __ ] forever God. forward, anything, any answers you need,
anything. You're just like God. Yeah, it's that. Um sorry I interrupted you. What?
Back to the mark of the beast. Oh, yeah, episode. That was so much It was. It was so much fun and we had we
had a ghost join us named Nicholas. guest, if you will. Um he was he was sassy, he was spicy. He
was that friend. Well, he was that friend that will be honest with you and I like that about
him. So, you agree you think I'm dull? No, he he thought that the tale like the whatever tale I told was dull. He wasn't
calling you dull. Okay. It's not about you, Ash. Well, no, but you said that he you What
was it that you weren't dull or something? Oh, no. I don't know. Go listen to the
episode. I can't remember what he said. he compliment at one point and you were like
He complimented and I and I took it. I received that. For you. And then he said something mean and I
said I don't receive that. said mhm, returning to sender. I understand Nicholas.
Well, he's in your home, so. so I think I I vibe with him. Maybe he's related to us.
Maybe. I was going to say maybe he's related to you and then I was like, well, You're like, I am also related.
would be related to me as well. No, I think we he was fun. It was fun to have him during the episode. We we just
put on Ghost Tube and just kind of like let him chat with us. And I think we have a spooky episode coming up. Um like
a you know, one of our like spooky insert thing here. Spooky Lucy Goosey. Roads, lakes, schools, graveyards, you
know, towns, all that. Uh we're going to do one of those coming up. And I think spooky butts, probably.
Spooky butts, I think is where we're we're going to land on. And uh during our spooky butts episode our spooky bits
uh we're going to we're going to have Nicholas come back. We're going to throw on the Ghost Tube and just let him kind
of comment throughout the episode. I hope it's him again. I feel like it will be.
What it Well, when we turned off the episode and we kept doing something, somebody named Jacob came.
Yeah, we just got a gaggle of a a gaggle of guys just floating around. I don't know how any of us feel about that, but
Not great. I love Nicholas, personally. I feel very connected to him. Jacob, I don't know.
We haven't really had time to get to know each other. Yeah, we turned it off Yeah, we did. We said bye. So, maybe
Jacob will come through, but I think it'll be fun to do for our spooky episodes to have um our Pod Lab spirits
join us and just kind of comment. Yes. Uh I think hopefully you guys will think that's kind of fun. You can let us know
after the episode if you like that was not fun. Yeah. Then totally let us know. But, we
figured it'd be something fun to add to the episode. I think you'll love it. I think you're going to love it.
Personally. I love Nicholas, so you know. Ghost soup's fun, and I think it's for
reals. Like, I'm just saying. Yeah. I stand on ghost soup. hell. No matter what it is, it's fun.
I agree. Yeah. Um what's not fun is the Zodiac killer. No, he's not fun. No. Um and I'm pretty he's probably dead.
I think. Yeah. I would assume. There's a good theory. Oh, okay. he died. Oh. Personally.
I mean, it makes sense considering the time period. I guess like it's a possibility.
Yeah, so He's a bag of bones or bag of bones or a and everybody thought he was 20. So,
let's do some math. So, I mean, you say let's. I will not be joining you in this.
So, it's 2025 minus We'll just say 1970 for the hell of it. that. 55 years ago. If you were 20, let's say
he was like 25. He could be like 80. 80. Yeah, which is very possible. Yeah, I know 80-year-olds.
Damn. I know. Imagine if the if the Zodiac killer is still out. Just imagine if he's just someone's
grandpa. Oh my god. Well, it's like Joseph James DeAngelo. Just like he was like in his
late mid mid to late '70s when he got caught. And well, that's that's the thing.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think he would have just gone away because he loved the theater.
And the dramatics. And like loved even even when it seemed as though he stopped killing people, like they stopped
linking crimes to him officially, he was still sending [ __ ] in. Yeah. To like newspapers and to the police and
everything, so. But maybe he's like a BTK, but like a BTK with restraint. Maybe.
You know, cuz like BTK went away for a long time. Yeah, and then but then he couldn't help
himself. And then he couldn't help himself. But like who knows if, you know, whoever the
Zodiac is if something took precedent that maybe changed maybe the uh trajectory.
the urge kind of thing. I just I am not ruling it out. Like it's definitely possible, but something about
this dude, I feel like he wouldn't be able to resist that urge. And that's just me who has like no profiling
experience whatsoever, but that's what my gut tells me. Hey, I'm willing to listen to your gut.
Thank you. I'll listen to it over here. Thank you. She's trashed, but we're working on her.
very loud and you have to listen to it all the time. That's true. Even if I don't want to
listen to your gut, she's telling me things. Yeah, she's always talking. It's usually just
I know and it's never like I'm never in distress. No, and sometimes it's not even when
you're hungry. Yeah, it's just that's how my gut works. It's just loud. My gut like it doesn't work.
If it like It doesn't in general, but it works with instinct. Yeah. So that's a little bit about our guts.
Now let's get into it. So we're back. We're back everybody with part two. In part one we went over the first of
the attacks which started with the murders of 17-year-old David Faraday and his girlfriend who
Betty Lou Jensen, she was 16 years old and this was her first boyfriend ever. That broke my heart.
Awful and her first date. And then we went over the attacks on two more couples, 22-year-old Darlene Ferrin
and 19-year-old Mike Mageau. Uh then lastly 22-year-old Cecelia Shepard and 20-year-old Bryan Hartnell. And if you
remember from part one those last two attacks, both of the men survived. It doesn't actually seem like that was
intentional like on the part of the killer, but you know, it happened. And of course, we
got into the theatrics that surround the case as far as the taunting letters to the media, the weird ciphers, the
[ __ ] crazy costume that he was wearing Oh. with the clip-on sunglasses. So unsettling.
I'll never be over the clip-on sunglasses. And the flat top of the head, like the executioner's hood being
flat topped. about it. I just don't know. In an executioner's hood in and of itself.
Horrifying. Yeah. So, now let's get into part two, which as most of us know, unfortunately does
not end with the capture of this fool. But luckily, the attack at Lake Berryessa produced more evidence than
the first two attacks. Because remember, the first two attacks, there was like nothing to go off of basically. This
gave us a little bit more. But not so luckily, detectives had pretty much exhausted any lead that they had within
like two weeks. Mhm. Not great. No, not great at all. No, not great at all. The witness
descriptions and communications with the killer allowed investigators to get some
kind of insight into the person that they were looking for, but funny that I was just talking about profiling. At
that time, psychological profiling was still years away. It wasn't a thing that was really, you know, tapped into yet.
And any kind of profile that they developed at that time was really just speculation. For example, a psychiatrist
in Napa quote suggested that the killer may be psychotic rather than psychopathic.
Thinking that the cipher revealed the Zodiac's delusional thinking. Okay. Now, if you're like me and you found
that quote a little bit confusing, um according to a quick Google, psychosis, aka being psychotic, is a symptom of
mental illness involving a loss of touch with reality. Oh, interesting. But psychopathy is a personality
disorder characterized by lack of empathy and remorse. Okay. That's the difference between those two
things. Cuz when I first read that, I was like, isn't that the same thing? I mean, yeah, excuse me.
And Google said, no. No. She sang it to me. He said, nor. She said, nor, girl. So, within a matter of a few weeks, all
the theories from a ton of sources started to merge into kind of one big theory that created a kind of unofficial
and obviously again highly speculative profile of the killer. In early October, a reporter from the Sacramento Bee
wrote, he's fairly bright, but his spelling and grammar indicate a poor education.
And this is a quote. He is fat, so he probably does not do too well with girls. In fact, he has unwittingly
indicated a sexual inadequacy. Oh, and he is an astrology fan. And when the signs are right, he goes out and finds
young boys and girls together who symbolize everything life has denied him. Wow.
Oh, the '60s. I don't even know what to think to hit on first. Yeah. To be quite honest.
Yeah. Um, damn. That was journalism. Yeah, sure was. But, like a lot of the theories about
the identity and motives of the Zodiac that have come out in, you know, five decades since the first attacks, it's
unclear what led reporters and investigators to like some of these conclusions in most
of them. But, while everybody was speculating and piecing together the clues that they did have, the Zodiac was
back out on the streets. Mhm. On the afternoon of October 11th, 29-year-old cab driver Paul Stine got
ready to head out for his shift for the night. Paul was a PhD candidate at San Francisco State College, and he was
working as a cab driver just to cover the cost of his education. He was just a few months away from
finishing his degree requirements and would have been on on track to graduate in January. Not far at all.
By 9:30 p.m., Paul had finished his first fare of the night, and he got a notification from the dispatcher about
another fare needing to be picked up. While he was on his way to get the second fare, he stopped to pick up a
single passenger, a man who hailed him at the intersection of Mason and Geary Streets.
The man asked to be dropped off at Washington and Maple streets, which was in a pretty wealthy neighborhood in San
Francisco, uh Presidio Heights. So, Paul entered the location in the logbook and started the meter and then
pulled away from the curb. What happened next is really just based off of speculation based on evidence
found at the scene. When they arrived at the intersection the passenger had requested, the man
instructed Paul to drive just one block further to the corner of Washington and Cherry streets. Once there, the man
produced a 9-mm handgun and placed the barrel to the back of Paul's head just behind his right ear and pulled the the
trigger killing Paul instantly. Come on. Nobody was really around to witness the
the actual shooting itself, but the sound of the gunshot was loud enough to attract the attention of three teenagers
who were in an apartment building across the street. And by the time they went to
the window to see what the hell was happening, they actually saw the killer move from the backseat to the front
passenger seat where it seemed like he was going through Paul's pockets and some kind of robbery.
Yeah. So, while one of the kids called the police, the other two went down to a a
lower floor of the building to try to get a better look at the guy in the cab. And from their new position, they could
see the shooter wiping down the surfaces on the cab with what looked like a cloth.
Oh. And then he moved Paul's body into an upright position and exited the cab through the passenger door.
Ooh. He wiped down the handle before and after closing it. Once he was outside the car, the shooter
walked around to the driver side, opened the door and repositioned Paul's body again since it had kind of like slid
down when he uh down and forward when he got out. And then after wiping down the inside
and outside of that uh the driver side door, the man closed it and just calmly walked away from the scene toward Cherry
Street like he was just some normal [ __ ] dude walking down the street after taking a cab.
That's [ __ ] creepy. You imagine watching that as a teenager watching that happen?
this body around? Multiple times. uh no. Wiping the doors down like, uh, I hate it.
So, when the witness has placed a call to the police, for some reason, there was some kind of miscommunication, and
for whatever reason, the dispatcher thought that the shooter was a black man, and advised responding officers to
that detail. As a result, on their way to the scene, those officers drove right past the
actual shooter as they traveled down Jackson Street, paying no attention to this white man casually walking away,
even though he was the only person in the vicinity of the crime scene at that point.
Oh, come on. How did that happen? How? Was it, now, was, was he wearing the outfit?
That I don't know, actually. maybe the miscommunication was like the black hood?
You know what I mean? Like, maybe that was not relayed correctly, or it didn't get heard correctly.
That is possible. You know? I don't think so, though, because I think that would have been like a major
detail that they the kids Yeah. So, maybe maybe straight-up racism, then. It might have been straight-up racism.
Yeah. Cuz it was, again, like late '60s or '70s. Yeah. Cuz I don't think he would have been
wearing the outfit, because I think Paul, like That would have been startling. Yeah, it wouldn't have got to the the
final destination. No, definitely not. Like, if he just popped that hood on. Yeah, I think he was just dressed like a
a man. Wow. And actually, you know what? Yeah. Yeah. The more I think about it, yeah.
And later on, the teenagers describe him, so yeah. That makes sense. So, San Francisco police officers Armand
Pelissetti and Frank Peta were the first to arrive at the scene, and they found two of the three teenager teenage
witnesses just standing near the cab. Mhm. Just taking this in. Jesus. After moving them to a, I know. After
moving them to a location, uh, further from the scene, they took their statements, which is when they realized
that that initial description of the shooter had been wrong, like like somehow lost in translation.
Mhm. Pelissetti quickly radioed dispatch with the update of a corrected description
and that went out to responding officers. But by the time the additional officers got to that area on Jackson
Street where they had just passed a white man and like the only [ __ ] man in the vicinity
Jesus Christ. he was gone. Damn. Completely gone. So back at the crime scene, officer Palazzeti approached the
cab and looked inside. By that point, Paul's body was again slumped forward and the officer could see that there was
a hole in his head right behind his right ear. Between the injury and the large amount
of blood in the front of the cab, it was obvious that Paul had died, unfortunately.
In the back seat of the cab, the killer had left a pair of size seven black leather gloves, which was a noticeably
small size for a man Huh. at that time. They also found a single 9 mm shell casing and 30 fingerprints.
Wow. Which remember it's a cab, so Yeah. tons of people. Yeah. But among the fingerprints was one that
belonged to Paul Stine and one unidentified print that was streaked with blood indicating that it most
likely belonged to the shooter. Palazzeti and the other officers also noticed that Paul's wallet and keys to
the cab were missing, which actually at that point did make them think that this
was a robbery that had gone wrong. So Palazzeti requested an ambulance and additional officers with dogs to comb
the area in search of the suspect and within a few minutes all seven K9 units had responded to the request along with
a ton of San Francisco police officers. A large number of San Francisco firefighters were also called to the
scene so that they could set up their ladders and high-powered lamps to kind of like illuminate the area more.
And once they collected all the evidence and removed the body, investigators left
the scene still thinking that this was some kind of robbery. Because actually at that point it was
pretty common for cab drivers to get robbed or face some kind of violence like this.
Yeah. So you know, they just thought that that was it. Yeah. And the search teams and the dogs didn't
turn up anything else in search for the killer. Based on the description of the shooter
from the teenagers who reported the shooting, investigators were actually able to produce a sketch of the killer,
which was published in the local papers a few days later. And this man was described as a white man, so the
teenagers the teenagers had not said to the Yeah, so that was clearly either just
straight-up racism or there was some very strange miscommunication happening. Yeah, I don't I'm leaning towards the
the former. The racism, yeah. I don't understand how Yeah, the black man comment was made because
all three said he was a white man 25 to 30 years old, 5'8" or 5'9" tall, and weighed about 150 lb.
Yeah, it's pretty clear. Yeah, definitely. I always wonder how people come up with that. I have no
[ __ ] I don't even know how tall I am. I couldn't tell how tall someone is or how much they weigh if you paid me a
zillion dollars. No, not at all. I could not. I'd be the worst witness ever. 100% I I also just like remember people
looking completely different than they do. at that, either. Yeah, I this would not be great for me.
No. But they also said he has reddish-brown hair, which he wears in a crew cut, and
was wearing heavy-rimmed glasses and a navy blue or black jacket at the time of the slaying.
Okay. So, not not the outfit. No. Now, it wasn't until 2 days later on October 13th that Paul Stine's murder
was linked to the Zodiac. That afternoon a letter arrived at the San Francisco Chronicle containing one single uh page
note written in what was now familiar writing and um in a blue felt-tipped handwriting of the killer.
He said, "This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of murderer of the taxi
driver over by Washington Street and Maple Street last night. To prove this, here is a blood-stained piece of his
shirt." which he did include. He said, "I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay Area. The SF
police, San Francisco police, could have caught me last night if they had searched the park properly instead of
holding road races with their motorcycles seeing who could make the most noise. The car drivers should have
just parked their cars and sat there waiting for me to come out of cover. School children make nice targets. I
think I shall I shall wipe out a school bus some morning. Just shoot out the the
front tire and pick off the kitties as they come bouncing out." Wow. What? I re- I remember hearing that specific
line. I do, too. I've read that. School children make nice targets and then he said like come bouncing out with
the kitties. as they they come bouncing out. Like I remember reading that and just being
horrified by Sinister. how sin- exactly like sinister and depraved that is. And it's just like he starts with
couples, then he targets this cab driver. So that's a complete diversion. kill kids now.
And now he's going to kids, right? Like what the [ __ ] Nobody's safe. No. Which we're going to get into.
Literally nobody's safe. Now just like the other letters, the latest note was signed simply with those
crosshairs, the symbol. And as proof of its authenticity, like I said, the letter writer also included a swatch of
fabric ripped from Paul Stine's blood-soaked shirt. Woah. So he's like this is me.
Yeah. And they also did an analysis of the handwriting and it concluded that it matched the other letters that the San
Francisco area papers had gotten a few months earlier. Mhm. Police Captain Martin Lee told told
reporters, "There are very strong indications, including the handwriting, that we are dealing with the same
person. All of the evidence is pointing toward this." And that inclusion of Paul's gray and
white striped shirt was irrefutable proof that the killings were linked. And if the previous attacks were any
indication, there was going to be more murders to follow. Yeah. The Zodiac had already made mention of
shooting a busload of school children. And as As as the public knew, the police were no closer to stopping him than they
had been after the first murders of David Faraday and Betty Jensen. They made no progress on this case. They
didn't have the slightest idea who this guy was. And in a city as large as San Francisco, he could have been anywhere.
He could have been anyone. Absolutely. An article from the LA Times read, "He could be old Mrs. So-and-so's boy who
never says boo and still loves at home, or that bachelor who keeps to himself and never seems to have any fun, or that
poor guy who works so hard at that lousy job and never complains and never lets on that his marriage is miserable."
Damn. That's bleak. The way that they wrote back then. Yeah. And I remember that clip. I remember he
could be Mrs. So-and-so's boy who never says boo. Yeah. For some reason that always stuck out to
me. But if we know anything about the '60s and '70s in California, or really anything about the last few episodes of
Morbid, we know that Californians had to contend with killers in the past. Yeah.
Some of these killers, obviously, like we've talked about, were theatrical and like evil maniacal. But the Zodiac
wasn't like anything anybody had ever experienced before. Like we were just saying, he changed his method of killing
unexpectedly, changed his preferred victims. He performed his attacks and murders with a kind of showiness, too.
Mhm. And a killer with an unpredictable victim pattern hunting the streets of San Francisco was terrifying enough, but
this guy's doing it while wearing a [ __ ] executioner's hood. Yeah. Like that adds to everything. That hits
Yeah, that hits different. Yeah, it definitely does. I can't imagine living in this area at
that time. No. Because I for me it's the costume, but also the fact that literally, like I
said earlier, no one is safe. Yeah. Couples, cab drivers, kids. And it he would just switch at a moment's notice.
Mhm. So in the wake of the most recent letters from the Zodiac, the Sheriff's Department assigned more than 70
deputies to guard the school buses as they transported children to and from school. It seemed like the killer was
expanding his geographic range to a degree, too. So, a kind of inter-agency task force was assembled, which included
officers from all local and regional law enforcement agencies with the intention of pooling resources
and evidence that could lead to an arrest, which is kind of profound because it doesn't happen a lot.
Yeah, I know. These agencies work together. No, that's actually the most shocking.
And I think it also points to how desperate they were to catch this guy. Almost a year had passed since the
Zodiac first struck in Vallejo, and in that time he had now killed five and seriously wounded two others, again
leaving very little evidence behind and just openly taunting investigators and the public.
But while it seems like the Zodiac was only just starting his rampage, interestingly, Paul Stine would turn out
to be the last victim officially linked to the Zodiac. Interesting. I don't know for sure if Paul really was
the Zodiac's last victim, Huh. but officially he is. Okay. That being said, a lack of victims
didn't get a lack of attention, and the man known as the Zodiac Killer was about
to be elevated to a status that had never been seen before in American history. Mhm.
Within a few days of receiving and publishing the Stine letter, public concern over the threat posed had
reached a point where the law the law enforcement agencies couldn't ignore it. So, Chief of Police Martin Lee released
an all-points bulletin containing instructions for school bus drivers who might find themselves the target of the
killer. The bulletin read, and this is just I can't imagine putting my kids on a
school bus during this time. Oh god. It read, "If a tire is punctured or shots are
heard, keep the bus in motion at all costs. Instruct passengers to lie on the floor. Attract as much attention as
possible by sounding the horn, flashing the lights, and erratic driving if necessary."
What the [ __ ] Like what if you can't keep the bus in motion? Well, that's in the other thing.
popped a tire? You could Sometimes you can't keep going. you want to say like, "Oh, I I would
never put my child on the bus if I was going to but some people didn't have a choice like they didn't have any other
way to do anything and it's like what the [ __ ] imagine reading that? No and what do you do?
Yeah. What do you do? I would just be like at home I think I would I'd probably lose everything down
and we'll lose everything cuz that's so scary. Yeah absolutely it is. Holy [ __ ] and then thinking like these
little kids getting on the bus and like like if that were to happen the bus driver is just supposed to tell them to
lay on the ground. These little kids like Like that's awful. So somehow the notice from Lee did help
reassure a lot of the drivers but he still couldn't help but take a swipe at the killer the police chief he referred
to the zodiac as a quote clumsy criminal liar and a latent homosexual. Huh? Like what?
What if anything indicated his sexual preference? Where the [ __ ] did you come out with
that? That's that's something. That that's neither here nor there. That I I just am like please ex point to
where you found that like what? Point to it. it's just guys being dudes sometimes.
Dudes being bros you know. It's just what? That's You can call that guy a lot of things to
just pull out of thin air and be like But to just be like He's a latent homosexual.
Like He's guy and he's pretending he's not okay. All righty I don't think that's why
we're here but sounds good thanks for being professional about it. Let's focus on the thing that will
definitely help us catch him. Yeah exactly. I'm also like yeah that's good. Needle the crazy man threatening
to shoot up a bus full of children. Yeah and that's the other thing it's like oh yeah cuz first of all we have no
[ __ ] clue what his sexual orientation is nor should it matter. Nope. But also are we really pretending that
straight people don't kill people? More often than not. Are we really pretending that straight
men have not like made up the majority of serial killers in the entire history of the
Hello. Like, are we really pretending that right now? It was just an opportunity to be nice.
Like, okay. Like, I'm not defending the Zodiac by any means here, but that was just
stupid. No, of course you're not defending him. Like, Jesus Christ. It just doesn't help. It's just not
helpful. it doesn't help the public. No. We're looking to catch this person. Give
me things that I can see with my eyeballs and witness with my eyeballs. And if you want to needle him, do it in
a way to draw him out. Like be like he's Say he's [ __ ] pathetic. Right. Say he's a [ __ ] pathetic loser
Right. who has nothing else to take control of, so he's taking control of vulnerable
people in vulnerable positions. Exactly. There you go. He's a [ __ ] loser. Yeah, I just did it.
Oh. So, the California Attorney General Thomas Lynch also got involved, acting as a coordinator for various state and
local agencies involved in the now growing manhunt, and he provided updates to the public. In his initial statement,
Lynch acknowledged the threat to the public. You couldn't not. Yeah. But, assured them that a competent task
force was pursuing the killer. He said, "Our law enforcement officers are competent. They are concerned, and
they will provide all the protection possible." And in an effort to quell public
hysteria, he told them the odds are that no tragedy will occur. But, it's like I feel like the odds are actually the
opposite at this point if we're actually like being real. If we're like really looking at this.
living in a place of reality, I feel like Cuz odds are that the Zodiac will strike
again Cuz if history has told us anything, he has. Yeah, let's be on alert. Luckily here, it worked out for him,
this statement. But, that I was like, "What was that based on?" Yeah. Anyway. Hm.
At the same time, he also issued an appeal to the Zodiac, urging the killer to turn himself in. He said, "He's
obviously an intelligent individual. He knows that eventually he'll be taken into custody, so it would be best that
he give himself up before tragedy is written in blood." Hm. That's the way you go about that.
go. And it's like that's the way to go about that. You do have to do a little like complimenting
and then you kind of threaten him a little bit. Like you know what I mean? There's a way to go about it.
Mhm. Lynch's assurances were more than just lip service though or him trying to simply placate a very increasingly
worried public. In Napa County, the school district's 64 school buses were given armed police escorts every day
as they covered roughly 4,000 miles transporting children to 28 different schools.
Damn. really put in like a lot of resources here. And additionally, a volunteer spotter
was added to every school bus and their job was to watch for any unusual activity along the bus route.
What a scary job. Yeah, seriously. But the statements and the press coverage of the manhunt prompted a
massive public outpouring and within a few days the San Francisco police had received hundreds of tips but none
provided any useful information. Mhm. Among the most bizarre was a call from a man claiming to be the killer and
offering a strange offer of surrender, basically. On October 21st, the caller told investigators he wanted them to
arrange for a nationally recognized lawyer, F. Lee Bailey, to appear on the local morning show, AM San Francisco,
the next morning and he said he would call in to discuss a possible surrender. And he said if Bailey's not available,
he would settle for California defense attorney Melvin Belli who had made a name for himself. He
actually represented Lee Harvey Oswald's assassin, Jack Ruby, and plenty of other
high-profile people. But San Francisco attempted to reach F. Lee Bailey, but when he was unavailable, they contacted
Belli and he happily agreed to appear on the show. A recording of the call was played for Bryan Hartnell who was one of
the last victims attacked in an effort to identify it as the man who had attacked him, but he wasn't able to
provide confirmation, unfortunately. So the next morning, host Jim Dunbar, who was joined by Melvin Belli, urged
regular listeners not to call in so that the lines would remain completely open for the killer.
For nearly an hour, the two men just chatted on air as they waited for this supposed killer to call, who finally
called in about 50 minutes into the show. In the clip, Belli can heard be heard saying, "Did you hear me?" And a
disembodied voice replies, "Yes, I did." And then hangs up the phone. Huh. A few minutes later, the man claiming to
be the Zodiac called back and they started a strange conversation where he told Belli to refer to him as Sam.
Like the name Sam. Interesting. Yeah. Throughout the conversation, both Dunbar and Belli tried to get some confirmation
that the caller was the man who had called the police the night before, if not the actual killer, but Sam, {quote}
{unquote}, dodged their questions and just continued insisting that he was the killer. He said, "I don't want to give
myself up. I want to kill those kids. I'm getting one of my headaches now. I've got to kill. I've got to kill."
Ooh. And this is just in like a morning show. Like, damn. That's the scariest thing ever.
Hello. Liter- Hello. After roughly 20 minutes, the caller told Belli, "Meet me on top
of the Fairmont Hotel with nobody else or I'll jump." No, thank you. So, Belli refused to meet the man on the
roof. you. But he said they they ended up agreeing on an alternate location. He was like,
"I'll meet you somewhere." So, they made plans to meet at 10:30 a.m., but when Belli arrived at this secret location,
there was no one there to meet him. Huh. He waited until 11:15, but when Sam, {quote} {unquote}, failed to show up, he
just abandoned the plan and left. Okay. Now, that Sam didn't show up at the agreed upon location didn't come as a
surprise to a lot of people. Captain Lee, not the Below Deck star, you were going to say that.
the reporter he that an officer, told reporters, "I think the caller has a problem, but whether he's involved in
the killings, I cannot say." Yeah. So, he was like, "I think this might just be a sick individual."
Makes sense. The dispatcher who had taken the call from the supposed killer the night
before listened to the audio from AM San Francisco and was certain that the voice
of the caller from the night before was not the same voice that called to speak to Belli.
Okay. According to the dispatcher, the caller quote revealed knowledge about one or
more of the five murders charged to the Zodiac that had never been made public. So she was like they told the dispatcher
said they said that the night before, but they didn't sound like the guy who called in.
So whether it was the killer who called or not, the opportunity to continue contact was lost once the show was over.
Ah. Unfortunately. So after the Belli interview on AM San Francisco, the Zodiac went quiet for a few weeks until
finally popping back up with a greeting card and yet another cipher Oh. sent to the San Francisco Chronicle.
Followed a day later by a rambling seven-page letter known now as the dripping pen card and the bus bomb
letter. The dripping pen card? pen card. Creepy. Very creepy. On the front of the
greeting card was an illustration of a wet fountain pen hanging up to dry and pre-printed text that said, "Sorry I
haven't written, but I just washed my pen." Wow. Like what? That's upsetting. I don't know why, but it is.
No, I know. That's like it's so [ __ ] creepy, but you can't explain why. Cuz sorry, but I just washed my pen.
Sorry, just washing my pen. Inside the card contained the pre-printed message, "And I can't do a thing with it."
No. So the card just said like on the front "Sorry, I just washed my pen and I can't
do a thing with it." Nope. I don't like that at all. What? I don't like it. Into this pre-printed message, the
killer added, "This is the Zodiac speaking." Which is a dumb thing to say because you're not speaking. And also
like We know. Yeah. Like you don't need to Yeah. You don't need to do that. It doesn't
need to be so official. He continued, uh I though, but it's supposed to say thought, you would need a good laugh
before you hear the bad news. You won't get the news for a while yet. PS, could you print this new cipher on your front
page? I get awfully lonely when I'm ignored, so lonely I could do my thing. And the do my thing?
So lonely I could do my thing. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation mark. And
the word thing was written in bold dark letters and underlined six times. Huh. Yeah.
Underneath the text, the writer drew the crosshair symbol, of course, with some text beneath that read Dez, like
December, July, Aug, Sept, Oct = 7. So the dates on the bottom were quickly interpreted as a taunt to the police
with the killer trying to indicate that he had actually killed seven people, not
five. sense. According to author Michael Cole, there was a high-profile double murder in San
Jose on August 3rd, 1969. Two young women, Deborah Furlong and Kathy Snoozy, were savagely murdered, each being
stabbed more than a hundred times. Oh my what? Yeah. Holy [ __ ] And Cole claims there are many who
believe these two be the Zodiac's sixth and seventh victims, but there's no evidence conclusively linking him to
either murder. Interesting. And actually several years later, a man named Karl Werner pleaded guilty to the
murders of Furlong and Snoo- and Snoozy as well as a third victim. Oh, okay. Who knows.
All right. But the second letter received by the Examiner which was much different than
anything the Zodiac had sent before. Among the more obvious differences, according to Cole, was that the previous
communication, quote, had been noticeably matter-of-fact and somewhat detached, but this letter exhibited a
clear sense of palpable hostility, primarily at law enforcement. The letter read in part, "This is the
Zodiac speaking. Up to the end of October, I have killed seven people. I have grown rather angry with the police
for telling their lies about me. So, I shall challenge the way of collecting slaves. I shall no longer announce to
anyone when I commit my murders, they shall look like routine robberies, killings of anger plus a few fake
accidents, etc. The police shall never catch me because I've been too clever for them. If you wonder why I was wiping
the cab down, I was leaving fake clues for the police to run all over town with. As one might say, I gave the cops
some uh busy work to keep them happy. Hey pig, doesn't it rile you up to have your nose rubbed in your boo-boos? If
you cops think I'm going to take on a bus in the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your heads.
For someone using the term um boo-boos, that's very aggressive. Boo-boos. aggressive letter for someone using the
word boo-boos. That's upsetting and I don't like it. Like nothing about that is uh something
I want to be around. I don't like that the fact that he's saying I'm going to make them look like routine
robberies and accidents and [ __ ] so you can't trace them to an actual murder or
trace them back to me is so scary. It's so scary and it's possible he did that. Well, that's the thing. I'm like, so did
you do that? Because remember, like I said, Paul's dad is the last official victim.
Yeah. But did he kill like who knows how many other people he could have killed and
made it look like accidents, robberies. Cuz there's a degree here where people are
like, I don't even know that he's not intelligent. Like look at all the grammatical mistakes he makes. I think
those are on purpose. Yeah. Possibly. And it's like he has gotten away so far, so he does know how to make things look
a certain way, you know? Yeah. I mean, he definitely I think he was capable of making things
look like accidents. So it's like he's he's at the very least capable of doing that.
Right. And but then you also have to look at it like the Jack the Ripper letters and you
have to say which ones are from him, which ones are copycats cuz you know there's always going to be some
you know, level of people who want to get involved with this [ __ ] Oh yeah, and there and we'll get into
it. There were plenty of letters that were sent that were not from the Zodiac. one is talking about the seven victims
again. It's talking about wiping down the Wiping down the cab and there were certain things that were not made uh
that the public was not made aware of. Yeah. So it's interesting but to the whole
ending of like if you cops think I'm going to take a bus in the way I stated I was, you deserve to have holes in your
heads. It's like woah. And it's also like why wouldn't we think that? Well, it's like that's
Like I don't get what your aim is there. Are you trying to say that you do have a
victim profile and like that's totally against it? So like you're dumb for thinking I was serious?
Yeah, I I mean I guess. it's him being like oh you just don't get my humor. Maybe.
Like to him that's humor. Maybe yeah, you know. I mean cuz he's a sick individual.
I feel like that's him being like like you don't get my highbrow humor, you know, like that's that feels like
that. It does, yeah. Yeah. Well, the letter goes on to describe the killer's new plan where he would place a
bomb described as a quote death machine and quote my masterpiece on a local bus.
Oh. And the letter included a list of components used to create the bomb as well as a kind of crude diagram in the
same blue felt tip pen used to write the letter. Mhm. The letter ended in a postscript
instructing the editors to print the diagram of the bomb and on the back final page was a second postscript that
said, "To prove that I am the Zodiac, ask that Vallejo cop about my electric gun sight which I used to start my
collecting of slaves." It's It's so weird to me when killers do this. Yeah, like taunt like this.
Because it's such like it feels like such 12-year-old kid behavior to be like ask him ask him
Yeah, I did that. I mean like it's just like It's like in his mind he's like a supervillain, not a murderer.
Yeah, it's like it's very strange. It's such immature behavior. It is. begging for attention for these awful
things you have done. Oh, and he keeps doing acting out like child acting out in a
negative way for any kind of attention Yes. situation. So I'm just like what the
it's so weird when they do this. No, it's bizarre. Yeah. Well, 6 weeks or so later on December
20th, the 1-year anniversary of David Faraday and Betty Jensen's murders, the Zodiac wrote again. This time to Melvin
Belli. In the now-familiar blue felt-tip pen uh in much better handwriting though. He
wrote that he writes with blue ink. Yeah. I'm sorry. I hate blue ink. I don't like
blue ink either. I get Yeah, I get frustrated with blue ink. But he wrote and again in much better
handwriting. Interesting. He said, "Dear Melvin, this is the Zodiac speaking. I wish uh you I wish
you a happy Christmas." Spelled incorrectly, the same way he had in the first letter.
"The one thing I ask of you is this, please help me. I cannot reach out for help because of this in me won't let me.
I'm finding it extremely difficult to hold it in check. I am afraid I will lose control again and take my ninth and
possibly 10th victim. Please help me, I am drowning. At the time at the moment the children are safe from the bomb
because it is so massive to dig it in. Plus the trigger mech requires much work to get it adjusted just right. But if I
hold back too long from 09, I will lose all control of myself plus set the bomb up. Please
help me, I cannot remain in control for much longer." That one was really hard to read because
the grammatical errors are a plenty. Yeah. The letter was signed with the same crosshairs now common among all Zodiac
letters and it included another swatch of fabric from Paul Stine's shirt. That's [ __ ] up.
Which meant it wasn't authentic letter. It's he's like devolving in such a strange way.
Yes. Like they're so different. Like you from that one where he's like, "Oh, I think
like shooting the kitties as they bounce out of school will be fun." And then here he's like, "I don't want to kill
anyone. I need help. help." And you're like, "What the fuck?" But he's still saying he's making this
bomb, but like it's too much work and he Yeah. if he can't get help, he's going to use
it. do it. And his first letter that he wrote like a long time ago was like saying how killing people was something
he loved to do and it gave him excitement. It was better than sex. But now he doesn't want to. And now here
he's like, "I don't want to take my ninth and 10th victims." And it's like, "What the What is happening?" This is
some scattered thinking. It is. Whoever this individual was, they were sick and scary.
All of the above. Yeah. A few days later, Melvin Belli contacted the Chronicle who did agree to
publish his response to the Zodiac on the front page of the December 20th 28th edition of the paper.
Belli said, "You have asked for my help and I promise you I will do everything in my power to provide you with whatever
help you may need or want." He offered to meet the killer in a private location of his choosing. But as the days passed
without a response, it became clear that the Zodiac had no intention of actually
turning himself in or meeting with Belli. You wonder if that was just a ploy to get him to
Get a response. Yeah. And to get a response that's like, "We'll help you. We'll do whatever you
want." You know, like that gives him the what he needs. And I think it probably would have made
him like laugh, like chuckle. I think it makes him feel powerful because he just got them all to tuck
their tails between their legs and say, "Would you And I'm not saying that against them
No. what else did they What other choice did they have? Yeah, they're scared that he's going to
put a bomb on the bus. yourself. Go kill some kids." Like Right. They're not going to set him up for
that. So, it's like it's not their fault, but that is what he wanted, I think. Yep.
I agree. After the letter was sent to Belly in late December, communication from the
Zodiac ceased for several months until a pair of letters showed up at the offices
of the Chronicle in late April about a week apart. Uh like the other letters, the latest
seemed to be an attempt to manipulate the press into keeping the story alive on the front pages because remember,
there's no new leads. He hasn't killed anybody that the police can link to him. So, this isn't being reported on exactly
how it was when it was like when everybody was in the thick of it. But in these letters, the Zodiac
demanded that investigators release, quote, all of the details of his bus bomb threat and called on San
Franciscans to wear uh to start wearing, quote, some nice Zodiac buttons. Oh, this he is delulu in a way that you
can't even And it's just it's like spiraling out of control. It's power. He's looking for power. He's
looking to be in control. That's why he's going to be like, "Let me see if I can get people to start wearing buttons
with my signature like with my logo there on it." You know what I mean? Like, "Let me see how far I can flex
this power I have over everybody." Just the fact that he thought that people might be willing to do that is so
wild. he scared if he scared people enough that they would think they were safe if
they wore those buttons. Like, "We're listening to you. We'll do what you say." Right.
Cuz he just saw them bend and say, "We'll help you however we can. We'll do whatever you want. What do you want?" He
says, "Print it on the front page." They print it on the front page. So, he's sitting there going, "How far can I take
this? I'll get them to wear buttons." So, this is power. This is all power. Like, I've ne- This is such a clear
case of power trip. It is in the worst way possible. Yeah. Well, the April letters repeated their
earlier claims that the killer had developed a massive bomb and was planning to leave it in an undisclosed
public location in order to cause now he said the most damage possible. Like the previous threats, this
obviously caused considerable panic among the public, but after a few weeks without any kind of
evidence about an actual bomb, things slowly started to return to normal. And like the previous letters, the April
letters stated that the killer had taken more lives, of course, but the police had yet to catch on. He said, "I've
killed 10 people to date. It would have been uh a lot more except I was swamped out by
the rain we had a while back." The [ __ ] Like, okay. Oh, cool. More letters followed a few months
later. In late June, the editor of the Chronicle received a note along with a new cipher saying, "This is the Zodiac
speaking. I've become very upset with the people of the San Fran Bay Area. They have not complied with my wishes
for them to wear some nice crosshair symbols button. I promise to punish them if they did not comply by annihilating a
a full school bus. But now school is out for the summer, so I punished them in another way. I shot a man sitting in a
parked car with a .38." Oh. Now, this is interesting. Yeah. The note was signed with the usual
crosshair symbol, of course, and text indicating that the Zodiac had now killed 12 people
and was accompanied by what would be his fourth and final cipher. So, a lot of people think that the line
about the man being shot in his car with a .38 was a reference to the June 19th death of 25-year-old San Francisco
police officer I looked up his name, I'm not positive. There's a few different pronunciations, but I think the best one
is Richard Radick. Okay. Right? Yeah. So, around 5:30 a.m. this officer was sitting in his car and had started
writing a parking ticket for a vehicle parked in front of him or sorry, parked in front of a hydrant when an unknown
assailant uh approached him from behind and fired three shots through the driver's side window.
Damn. Yeah. It is worth noting though referencing the first five murders in his letters,
the Zodiac offered some form of evidence that validated his claims. Mhm. Like an unpublished detail or in the
case of Paul Stein's murder a piece of physical evidence. But the claims made in the letter since Paul Stein's death
didn't include any verifications and he probably could have he very likely did learn about them through the press.
Oh, so there you go. Yeah. But still the letters are believed to have been sent by the Zodiac himself.
Okay. So who knows? It's possible. Two more letters were sent that year. One to the
Chronicle on October 5th and another to Chronicle writer Paul Avery directly on October 27th. Like the others these
letters seem to be an attempt to keep the story on the front page as a power move since it had started to be replaced
by other more pressing matters. The difference in the case of the October 27th letter though
was that it was one of the rare instances where the killer addressed a single person. The only other time he
had really done that was when it was Marvin uh Melvin Belli. Oh, yeah. In this case the killer sent a Halloween
card to Avery who had done the bulk of the reporting on the Zodiac for the Chronicle and made a vague threat on his
life. Oh. But in an interview Paul Avery said, "I'm really not scared. I've needled him
in some of my stories. Maybe that's why he wrote me." I love that. He's just like whatever.
He's like I'm not afraid. That's fine. I'd be [ __ ] I needled him. terrified. Five months after Avery received the
Halloween card threatening his life, the editor of the Los Angeles Times received
its first letters uh letter from the killer. In the latest letter the killer noted the number of victims was now 17.
So he's going up like exponentially. just going to say that was a jump. And he said, "The reason that I'm
writing to the Times is this. They don't bury me on the back pages like some of the others."
Wow. Uh he used this as an opportunity obviously to declare a high a higher victim number.
Of course. It was mostly yet another letter taunting the police who had failed to
make any significant progress on the case. He said, "Like I've always said, I'm I'm crack-proof. If the blue meanies
Wow. are ever going to catch me, they had best do something because the longer they fiddle around, the more slaves I
will collect for my afterlife." Ew. I hate that that's like what he's claiming this is for.
To go from boo-boos to blue meanies? I'm like, you were calling them pigs at one point. Like, that's rude and like
shitty. Now you've Now you're saying blue meanies? He feels like he has like and I I by no
means armchair diagnosing anybody. I'm just saying that in these letters, it seems like there's different
personalities coming through. No, I completely agree. some of them are much like the one
pleading for help. Yeah. And please stop and then the next one is like, "It's better than sex." And then
there's one that's just like, "My boo-boos." And then the other one's like, "Blue meanies, pigs." Like, it's
just like, "What?" It's It's very It's various different tones. like there's very different people
coming through here but the same person. Yeah, there's some kind of like mood disorder or something going on here.
Something going on. But after sending the letter to the LA Times, the Zodiac went quiet for almost
3 years until the Chronicle received what would prove to be the final communication from the Zodiac himself on
January 29th, 1974. In his latest communication postmarked from the Santa Clara from Santa Clara
County, the Zodiac gave no indication of why he'd gone silent for such a long period of time, which is interesting and
we'll touch on it later. Mhm. But instead, he offered only three thoughts. He said, "I saw and think The
Exorcist was the best satirical comedy I've ever seen." Signed, "Yours truly." He plunged himself into the billowy wave
and echo aroused from the suicider's grove, tit willow, tit willow, tit willow. P.S. I If I do not see the note
in your paper, I will do something nasty which you know I'm capable of doing. Wow.
So now he's just like, "I'll just do something." He's like, "I'll Yeah, I'll come up with
something nasty, you know I will." That just I'm like did is that where Beetlejuice got it?
Oh. Maybe. Is that where like The Exorcist? And it gets funnier every time I've seen it.
Maybe. Yeah. Good call. As soon as I heard that I was like Beetlejuice? What? Oh [ __ ] that's creepy. I hate that.
Uh cuz I mean that's exactly what he says essentially. It is, yeah. Yeah. Well, that makes it even scarier,
Beetlejuice. like oh god. In small script on the bottom right corner of the page he included me 37
SFPD zero. Like San Francisco Police Department. So now he's claiming he's killed 37 people.
I mean and at this point though too, it's like who knows? He might have. Yeah. Additionally, the signature on the
letter wasn't the actual um recognizable crosshair symbol this time. A series of
strange markings that looked like maybe Chinese or Japanese writing, but they've
never been identified as any known language. Scary. Yeah. What is probably the most noticeable and
unusual about the final Zodiac letter isn't the missing signature, but the lack of any real substance. Because in
the past the letters sent by the killer were sent to claim one of his murders, to taunt the police, or you know, give
the press some kind of [ __ ] puzzle to solve. Yeah. But here he just makes a snarky joke
about The Exorcist, which had been released in theaters a couple months earlier. And then he just quotes line
from the Rodgers and Hammerstein play The Mikado and makes what feels like we were just saying is like a pretty vague
threat of violence just for the hell of it. Yeah, just to do Yeah. But the letter has been analyzed
thoroughly and it is believed by law enforcement officials to be authentic. why. Like what about that feels
authentic? I don't know if it was like maybe the blue felt pen or something. Yeah, sure.
I know that one I'm not positive about, especially the fact that it didn't have the crosshair symbol.
That's what I'm like this feels very Jack the Rippery where it's like yeah, it's totally a real one.
Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that. The one I don't I mean, like obviously handwriting
analysis is a real thing, but it's also like a tricky science, so definitely be tricky.
I don't know. But the Chronicle did publish the letter in full either way. They left out the strange markings on
the bottom though at the request of the San Francisco police. But in the years that followed investigators would
receive hundreds if not thousands of letters and cards claiming to come from the Zodiac. But as far as investigators
are concerned, this was the last time any news outlet or law enforcement agency would hear from the Zodiac.
Interesting. Yeah. So who the [ __ ] was this guy? Yeah. We got to talk about it.
We do. So obviously a lot of the Zodiac story is, you know, result of the media attention, the public fascination that
surrounded the case, but at the same time there's also a massive and very long-ranging investigation or there was
that went on behind the scenes. Countless law enforcement officers from local cops to FBI all worked together to
try to stop him. Their efforts obviously didn't make it into the endless stream of press
coverage because there wasn't a lot to say beyond we don't really have much to go on, but we're trying.
Well, you don't want to be like here's what they're doing to catch him because he's just going to be like cool.
First, they started here. Then, they went here. And like we know he had left some
evidence behind at the crime scene and he provided some clues throughout everything that he was doing, but they
never got any major major breaks in the case. But there were actually at least 13 other murders where the Zodiac was
briefly considered a suspect. Mhm. It's just that they could never be confidently connected. He could never
confidently be connected to the Which is what he wanted. Yep. And while it's true that there were
never any major breaks in the case like I just said, there have been close to 2,500 suspects over the course of the
case. That's horrible. Which is wild. terrible. Yeah, over 2,500 in general with at
least a handful of them being considered by investigators to be serious. Wow. Yeah.
But with a suspect list so long and one that includes a number of actually high-profile killers like Ted Kaczynski
and Charles Manson, it would be pretty impossible for us to sit here and go through every single
suspect. Yeah. So we're going to get into the three most popular suspects. Just kidding. We're going to sit down
and we're going to go through 2,500 of the suspects. Okay, are you sitting down?
Does anybody have to go to the bathroom? The next 3 years of Morbid is going to be just dedicated to suspects of the
Zodiac killer. Okay, so today we're going to Can you imagine? All right, so the first one is Richard
Gaikowski. When the Zodiac murders started, he was living in the San Francisco area. He had been living there
for about 6 years and he was working as the editor at the popular newspaper Good
Times. Good times. Good times, man. He would have been within a short distance of two of the
Zodiac crime scenes, which were the Lake Herman Road and the Blue Rock Springs attacks.
He does bear a resemblance to the sketches of the Zodiac released in the press. And
all of the evidence against him is circumstantial, but some of it is pretty compelling.
So when Mageau gave his statement to the police after his attack, he mentioned that he had actually been chased by one
of Darlene's former boyfriends just before they were assaulted that night. Huh. Yeah.
He said, "I thought he drove off and drove away, but he he came back later and shot us." So that's he really
thought it was that person. And he does resemble the sketch. He does. He very much does. And Mike
continued, "She told me it was a friend of hers and he was just jealous. She mentioned his name and she referred to
him as Richard." Mhm. And later Darlene Ferrin's sister Diane claimed her sister did in fact have a
former boyfriend named Richard who was a journalist. Oh. So those two things link up.
Interesting. Now, another uh circumstantial piece of evidence, Nancy Slover, I think it is, a
former police dispatcher who took the call from the Zodiac after the Faraday murder, after Darlene's murder.
She listened to a tape of Gaikowski's voice in 2009, and she was very confident that it was the same voice she
heard on the night of the murder. Interesting. She said, "I listened to the voice of
Richard, and I felt shock and deja vu. In my opinion, he was the same person I listened to in July of 1969."
Wow. This one, this next one creeps me out. It will give you the chills. Paul Stine,
the young cab driver who was murdered, his sister claimed that a man resembling Gaikowski was at her brother's funeral,
but she had no idea, like she had no way of knowing who he was at the time. Oh, [ __ ]
later, when it was brought to her attention, she was like, "Oh, I saw somebody that looked just like that."
Well, and if you look at the police sketch, like look at the composite, and you look at there's like a picture of
Gaikowski where he's making the exact same face as the composite, cuz in the composite, the like the one where the
mouth is closed, he's doing almost like a little like hm, like a little like smirk, like a like a sneer.
Yeah. Almost, but it's like very subtle. There's a picture where he's doing the same thing with his mouth.
Hold on, I'm looking. And the eyebrows are very similar, like they're that low set eyebrow.
Mm. And he's got the same glasses. He does have the same glasses. Like even the hairline is the same.
Yeah. Like And like the the narrowness of the forehead. Yeah. Like the the hairline and the
narrowness, like that's that's pretty crazy. Yeah, even the lips look very similar.
and the way he does that little slight sneer with his lips. It's pretty It's pretty compelling. That That's
compelling, at least. It is. Well, the last um like big piece of circumstantial uh evidence against
him, a lot of his co-workers at Good Times found him to be pretty strange. And in 1971, they actually filed
paperwork to have him involuntarily committed to the Napa State Mental Hospital.
Woah. And there he was diagnosed with an undisclosed mental illness, but that hospitalization would have coincided
with the drop-off in communication from the Zodiac in 1971. Okay. And remember, when he came back, he
didn't say [ __ ] all about where he had been. Like when they got the next letter.
So, that's interesting. That's a compelling one. That's interesting. He was investigated
by the FBI after Darlene Ferrin's murder, but told investigators that he was out of the country at the time,
which effectively ruled him out as a suspect. But, according to amateur investigator Tom Voigt, Gaikowski had
actually lost his passport just before the murders, so it wouldn't have been possible for him to leave the country.
Oh my guys. Yeah. This one seems like It seems very compelling. And Voigt alleges that the FBI never
bothered to follow up on Gaikowski's alibi, but if they had, they wouldn't have ruled him out.
Hey FBI, what the [ __ ] Honestly. And after being released from the Napa State Hospital, Gaikowski went back to
San Francisco, where he just opened a small movie theater and a store and managed a few local punk bands, which is
just wild, while also advocating for progressive political issues. Huh. So, maybe he did get some kind of
treatment that helped him in the hospital and maybe like obviously speculating here, but maybe received
ongoing treatment. Woah. That got him in check. Woah. Uh but he did pass away in 2004.
And at least one former co-worker has been very vocal about him being the Zodiac,
but he's never been seriously investigated by law enforcement. Yeah. That's wild.
If anyone that you know, like if you if you think someone's the Zodiac, you know a wild ass person.
Yeah, that's the thing. I can't imagine one of my friends being a serial killer.
I can't imagine one of my friends being like, "I think that like you might be a notorious serial killer."
Yeah. Like if somebody thinks that, then like you've really done some stuff. Yeah. You really You really showed your
ass in that relationship. that phrase. I think that phrase is so funny. Cuz I mean it's it is a perfect
description. It is. Yeah. I think he's very compelling, but our our next one is Gary Francis Post.
In 2021, an independent group of retired investigators known as the Case Breakers, which I love.
This That's amazing. It reminds me of in Yellowjackets with like the That was thinking of. I almost said it.
Like the web sleuths. Yes. Well, they identified Gary Francis Post as the man who was most likely to have
been the Zodiac Killer. Uh he was a former member of the US Air Force, and he had a very long history of very
violent behavior, including a history of domestic violence. He lived within a 15-minute drive of
several crime scenes while the murders were taking place. And like Richard Gaikowski, the case against Post is
built entirely on circumstantial evidence and has been refuted by the FBI, but he remains a popular suspect
with the Case Breakers and just people who enjoy true crime in general. Mhm. Uh according to the group Case Breakers,
photos showed Mr. Post with supposed scars on his forehead that they believed matched the marks shown on a police
sketch of the Zodiac Killer. Mhm. And that's among a handful of facts related to physical evidence that they
makes him a strong suspect. Others uh include the fact that a size 10 military boot military-style boot print was
discovered at one of the crime scenes, and that was similar to the style of boots that he was known to have worn at
the time. So, that's interesting. Okay. Uh also a Timex watch band was discovered at one of the crime scenes,
which investigators believe was purchased at a military base around the mid to late '60s, which is when he would
have been in the military. Perhaps maybe the most important, at least as far as the case breakers are
concerned, is his supposed link to the murder of Sherry Jo Bates, an 18-year-old girl who was killed in
Riverside in 1966. That fall she started her first year at Riverside Community College and the last
time she was seen was when she was studying at the library on the night of October 30th.
The next morning a groundskeeper on the campus had just started street sweeping when he came across her body in an alley
on campus. And police believe her killer had disabled her vehicle and then waited for
her to go back to her car, which is so [ __ ] terrifying. At some point in the life of the Zodiac
case, Sherry Jo Bates was considered actually to be one of the victims linked to the Zodiac. And the case breakers
believe that Post was responsible for her death. Given the link between her murder and
the Zodiac and his history of violent behavior and enthusiasm for guns and military propaganda, they think he's the
best best suspect. But despite their enthusiasm, investigators on the Zodiac case
completely reject their theory and they ruled him out completely as a suspect. Yeah. In 2021, a spokesperson for the
Riverside police said, "In 2016 investigators received an anonymous letter from a person admitting the
handwritten letter sent to our department months after Sherry Jo Bates was murdered was written as a sick joke
and that he was not the Zodiac killer." Which [ __ ] up. That's not any kind of joke. That's ridiculous.
Riverside police officer Ryan Railsback went a step further when he told ABC News, "We don't know how we can be any
more clear. The $50,000 private reward is still valid. If someone has any information on the Bates case, please
come forward." So he was like, "It's not this guy. Like we we looked at him." That one doesn't
um doesn't uh compel me any further. No, I feel the same way. So, the FBI and the Riverside police and
me and Elena might have ruled Gary Post out as a Zodiac suspect, but the Case Breakers remain committed to their
belief that he is the guy. In an interview with Post's former neighbor, referred only to as Gwenny,
the woman told the reporters he, meaning Gary, lived a double life. As a As I'm an adult thinking back it all kind of
makes sense now. At the time when I was a teenager, I didn't put two and two together until I got older. It hit me
full blown like Gary's the Zodiac. I One of my This case is so wild because it's so
different from any other case where people just confidently indict people to be the Zodiac.
So, that guy over there. In this case they're literally like, "Yeah, it just [ __ ] hit me like a ton
of bricks that um Gary over there is the Zodiac." And it's just like, "You literally can't say
that. You can't do that." That is quite an indictment, ma'am. You just can't Like that's like, "My
neighbor's annoying. I the Zodiac." It's just like What are we doing? And just to be like
I never thought about it before, but what? The Case Breakers said it. It just Zodiac.
Tap tap. Period. That guy's the Zodiac. And it's just like, you literally can't do that.
That's lawless. But it's just this is the only This is the case that that really happens
Yes. so often and has happened for decades. Yeah. For decades people have not just been
like, "Oh, I think this person should be looked at as the Zodiac." People are like, "That is the Zodiac killer."
man right there is the Zodiac killer. It's wild. It's fascinating to watch. It is. It's It's also scary.
It's very scary. Humans do crazy [ __ ] We're wildin'. Well, this next one and last one that
we'll talk about is also very interesting. The Guy Kowski suspect is a strong one.
my guy. He's strong. Post, not so much. This one, back to strong. Okay. This is Arthur Leigh Allen.
So, Guy Kowski and Post may top the list of amateur investigators, but as far as
the members of the actual Zodiac task force were concerned, the most compelling suspect, and the only person
to ever be publicly identified by investigators, was former elementary school teacher Arthur Leigh Allen.
I hate that. Yeah, I hate that he was an elementary school teacher. that a lot. He served in the US Navy, and he was
honorably discharged in 1959. And 2 years later, in 1961, he moved to the San Francisco Bay Area, yeah, found work
as a teacher until he was fired in 1968 when a student made accusations of sexual misconduct.
Oh. Weirdly, he was generally well-liked, but a lot of people in later years did
find him to be strange. Okay. And later, friends and neighbors would find similarities between the things
that the Zodiac wrote in letters and comments made by Allen over the years. Just like the way he spoke and certain
things he would say. It should also be said that Allen was the number one suspect for the lead
detective on the case, who was Dave Toschi, and also a former San Francisco Chronicle writer, Robert Graysmith, who
covered the case extensively for the paper. He also believed that this was like the number one guy.
Really? In a 2007 interview, Graysmith said, "Dave and George Bawart of the Vallejo
police, they're convinced the Zodiac is Arthur Leigh Allen." And Graysmith and others who believe
that Allen was the killer are not just speculating. They do cite some pretty compelling evidence.
On the day of the attack at Lake uh Lake Berryessa, Arthur Leigh Allen was known
to be only one of nine people to visit the lake that day. Wow. That's compelling.
Yeah. Also on that same day, a Vallejo police officer pulled him over for speeding
that afternoon, like the same uh day as the attack at the lake. And when the officer looked in the back of Allen's
car, he discovered a bloody hunting knife, which Allen said he used to kill chickens.
Oh. Yep. Before the killings Allen frequently bragged to his friends that he was, quote, "going to hunt
couples at night, send letters to the press, and call himself Zodiac." Before any of this happened.
I mean, whoa. Allen's coworker, Don Cheney, told police about these statements and
voluntarily took and passed a polygraph. Wow. Yeah. In 1971, Cheney reported Allen to the
police after he made several alarming statements indicating a, quote, "desire to commit violence," some of which, like
thing some of the things he was saying were similar to statements made in the Zodiac letters. He said, quote, "That
phrase about picking the little darlings off, I remembered that, and that's what
forced me to go to the police." What This is compelling. Compelling, right? Yeah.
Uh after their interview with Cheney in 1971, police actually interviewed Allen a number of times, and they searched his
home where they discovered hunting knives inside, as well as a freezer of dead hamsters, squirrels, and birds.
Dead hamsters? I don't know, man. But, yeah. And in 1991, they searched his home
again, and this time they found, quote, "some writings, some pipe bombs, and some illegal weapons."
Oh. Yeah. Vallejo Police Captain Roy Conway told the San Francisco Chronicle in 1992, "None of it was sufficient to make
an arrest for him being the Zodiac." Huh. Yeah. Now, in 2002, DNA and fingerprint
analysis was conducted comparing Allen's DNA and fingerprints to those found on the Zodiac letters, and they were not a
match, which ruled him out as a suspect. But, I don't know. I don't know. This one's weird.
Yeah. Despite that finding, in 2018, Vallejo Police Detective Terry Poser told reporters, "Our Vallejo suspect, Allen,
is probably still the best lead. There are probably 30 different circumstantial things that point to him. He was
extremely intelligent but a deviant dude. Unfortunately, he died of natural causes
in 1992. Guys. Yeah. Now, in 2004, the case was officially made inactive by higher-ups at the San
Francisco Police Department. They explained that their caseload required them to just set aside some older
unsolved cases. It makes sense. But, in 2007, the case was reopened when investigators wanted additional DNA
testing. And in 2018, after the capture of Joseph James James DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer, using familiar DNA
to testing, another profile was put together actually using the DNA from samples from the Zodiac letters. But,
the results weren't conclusive. Of course they were. Yeah. But, as of now, the case does
remain open with the FBI. Holy [ __ ] And that is the infamous Zodiac case. I Gaikowski is still my is the one that
hits. Gaikowski hits really, really hard. Yeah. He's up there. Especially the fact that he was like
involuntarily put in a hospital. And it lines up with the timing. Because there is some mental illness in
that in those letters. Absolutely. The number one thing for me are the number like tied for number one pieces
of evidence against Arthur Leigh Allen are the fact that he was at like Berryessa that day. And only one of nine
people. Yeah. And then, the fact that he got pulled over that afternoon and had a bloody
hunting knife. Yeah, that's pretty wild. Like He doesn't look like the sketch. I know. And well, and Richard Gaikowski,
like He literally looks identical. He looks exactly like the sketch. Not that I'm just going off the sketch.
No, you can't just go off that, but when you go when you have all of those other circumstantial pieces of evidence
that we talked about, and then he looks like the sketch. looks exactly like it. It's like, "Hmm,
yeah. That is interesting." It's so interesting, too. Like, it's so weird cuz you hear like Zodiac and in
your mind you're like, "He killed like so many people." But there's only and it's awful, but there's only five that
are confirmed. You just wonder how many people he actually killed. Yeah, cuz he claimed like somewhere in
the 30s. Yeah, I think it ended up being like 37, something like that. And it's like
I don't people were connected? That's the thing. And again, like the police came out and said themselves
there were cases that were considered, but they just couldn't conclusively link them.
just like scary. Freaks you out. It's a very wild, very interesting case. I mean, they solved the Golden State
Killer case after how many years? Nope. Like you always say, a cold case is never cold.
Never cold. Yeah. You just got to warm it up a little. Just thaw it out, you know.
So, thaw that out, guys. Yeah. And we hope you keep listening. And I think we hope you keep it
weird. But not so weird that we don't solve the Zodiac Killer case because can you
[ __ ] imagine if that's solved within our lifetimes? Let's go. It'd be crazy. Let's do it.
Who knows? Mhm.

Despite the passage of fifty years since his last activity, the case of the Zodiac Killer continues to fascinate and frustrate law enforcement, the media, and the American public, making America’s most notorious unsolved murder case.

Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!

References

Blankenstein , Andrew, and Wilson Wong. 2021. 'The case remains open': FBI rebuts claim Zodiac Killer case is solved. October 7. Accessed February 2025. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/case-remains-open-fbi-refutes-claim-zodiac-killer-case-solved-n1281002.

Chabria, Anita. 2018. "Vallejo police have sent Zodiac Killer DNA to a lab. Results could come in weeks." Sacramento Bee, May 3.

Chronicle, San Francisco. 1970. "A Zodiac threat to newsman." San Francisco Chronicle , October 31: 7.

Cole, Michael F. 2020. The Zodiac Revisted: The Facts of the Case. San Francisco, CA: Twin Prime Publishing .

Drake, Rossiter. 2007. "A magnificent obsession with the Zodiac killer." San Francisco Examiner, March 2: 28.

Flaherty, Frances. 1969. "New letter by Zodiac claims seven slayings." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), November 12: 1.

—. 1969. "Teenagers' s;ayer still at large." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), March 30: 1.

Flaherty, Francis G. 1968. "Investigators lacking clues in 2 slayings." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), December 22: 1.

Glover, Malcolm. 1969. "Hundreds of 'Zodiac' tips flood Bay police." San Francisco Examiner, October 18: 1.

Lowe, Lindsay. 2024. Who was Arthur Leigh Allen? October 29. Accessed February 14, 2025. https://www.today.com/popculture/zodiac-killer-arthur-leigh-allen-rcna176996.

McClatchy Newspapers Service. 1969. "Vallejo Police seek gunman who killed woman, shot man." Sacramento Bee, July 5: 1.

Michelman, Jordan. 2020. "What If You Solved the Zodiac Killer Mystery and No One Believed You? ." Portland Monthly, December 16.

O'Connell, Oliver. 2021. Gary Poste: Who was the alleged Zodiac killer identified by ‘Case Breakers’? October 7. Accessed February 14, 2025. https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/crime/gary-post-zodiac-killer-suspect-b1933700.html.

Peterson, Dave. 1969. "2 survivors tell what they can on 'Code Killer'." Times-Herald, October 1: 1.

Sacramento Bee. 1969. "Officers check leads in Berryessa killing." Sacramento Bee, October 3: 27.

San Francisco Examiner. 1969. "'Cipher Killer's' new letter." San Francisco Examiner, August 4: 1.

—. 1969. "'Cypher Killer' hunt is pressed." San Francisco Examiner, August 6: 57.

—. 1969. "School bus alert on mad killer." San Francisco Examiner, October 17: 1.

—. 1969. "Sketch made of killer in taxi slaying." San Francisco Examiner, October 14: 6.

—. 1970. "Zodiac 'greeting' to police: 'enjoy yourselves at my blast'." San Francisco Examiner, May 1: 50.

Smith, Dave. 1971. "17-plus victims claimed in letter by Zodiac Killer." Los Angeles Times, March 16: 3.

—. 1969. "Zodiac Killer--chilling portrait of madness." Los Angeles Times, October 15: 1.

—. 1969. "'The Zodiac' lives inconspicuously, but murders with flourish." Sacramento Bee, October 10: E12.

Smith, Jane. 1969. "Girl stabbing victim dies in Napa hospital." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), September 30: 1.

Times-Herald. 1969. "Cryptogram deciphered by teacher." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), August 9: 1.

—. 1968. "Hunt maniac in murders of teenagers." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), December 23: 1.

—. 1969. "Lake attacks linked to Vallejo slayings." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), September 29: 14.

—. 1969. "Mystery ciphers not decoded yet." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), August 2: 1.

—. 1968. "Vallejo teenagers are shot to death near Lake Herman." Times-Herald (Vallejo, CA), December 21: 1.

—. 1969. "Police seeking clues in Vallejo shootings." Times-Herald, July 6: 1. Connect with Wondery http://wondery.com/shows http://facebook.com/WonderyMedia http://twitter.com/WonderyMedia http://instagram.com/WonderyMedia #wondery #morbid #podcast #truecrime #truestory

Brief Summary

The episode discusses the Zodiac Killer's murders, letters, and potential suspects, highlighting the investigation's challenges and public fascination.

Key points

The 666th Episode. Elena and Ash celebrate their 666th episode, discussing its significance and a ghostly guest.
The Zodiac Killer's Profile. Investigators speculate on the Zodiac killer's identity and motives, leading to chilling conclusions.
Zodiac's Chilling Letter. A letter from the Zodiac links him to Paul Stine's murder, including a blood-stained shirt.
Public Panic and Police Response. The police issue a bulletin for school bus drivers amid rising public fear.
The Bizarre Surrender Offer. A man claiming to be the Zodiac offers to surrender on a local morning show.
Zodiac's Taunt to Police. The Zodiac claims to have killed seven people and mocks police efforts.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Oh my god. Well, it's like Joseph James DeAngelo...

Elena compares the Zodiac killer to another infamous criminal.

5:27WatchMay 1, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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