The Preacher's Wife & Dirty Little Secrets | "48 Hours" Full Episodes | Forensic Files

[music] [music] Carrie loved Matt from [music] the very beginning and he seemed to adore her.
There were times when it [music] was very difficult being the wife of a pastor, but Carrie was very good at it.
[music] I'm Carrie's mother. I'm Linda Dulan. More than anything, Carrie loved her
girls. [music] Loved them. >> I think she was a very loving, caring person. Um, family was first for her,
but I [music] also know now Cassidy consumed her. The loss of Cassidy consumed her thoughts.
After Cassidy passed away, she couldn't go to sleep. She could not go to [music]
sleep. And so, she started taking sleeping pills. But I never saw it as suicidal. I saw it more as she's
hurting. She's missing her daughter. It was right at [music] 12:00 by the time I made it home. I had that eerie
feeling when I walked in the room that something's not [music] right here. I don't think my wife is okay. And I go to
her side and I touch her and she doesn't move. She doesn't [music] respond. And I
call out her name and there's no response. And I immediately pick up the phone and call 911.
>> It was 911. Do you have an emergency? I my wife is laying in the bed and her lips are blue.
>> There was no [music] pulse. There was nothing. I'm on the phone. >> Is she conscious?
>> No, she's not. No, no, no, no. She's not breathing at all. [music] >> I was gone maybe 40 minutes and during
that time, I don't know what happened to her. The police officer [music] brings me the note. I read the first line and I
handed it back cuz I said, "I can't read it right now." My first thought at that
time was, "Her parents need to be here." >> Matt tells us that Carrie committed suicide. I'm thinking, "How can that
be?" I talked to her and she was just in a really good mood. >> I never thought in a million years that
[music] my wife would do this. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. She was my best friend.
>> I found it unbelievable, but I accepted [music] it. I mean, what was the alternative?
>> My name is Matt Baker and I have been accused of murdering my wife. I'm Aaron Morardi, the preacher's wife.
[music] [music] >> [music] >> I know if she was sitting here, she would look at you and say, "He didn't do
anything. Leave him alone." But she [music] can't. Ever since Matt Baker's wife died suddenly at the age of 31, the
Baptist preacher has lived under a cloud of suspicion. Is he an innocent man unfairly accused as [music] his
followers and friends believe? >> Daddy, what are we having for supper? >> Or is he hiding a terrible dark secret?
>> In your name we pray. Amen. >> It's so improbable. It's not who I am. I loved my wife. I never hurt her a day in
my life. Carrie was a popular third grade teacher. [music] She and Matt had been together since
meeting as counselors at a Baptist day camp in Waco in 1994. >> Uh I would have been 23 and she was 20.
I met her and I thought this is the person for me. >> That was her senior picture in high
school. >> I mean she's beautiful. >> Yeah. Yeah, she is. >> Linda and Jim Dulan remember their
daughter was instantly smitten with the Baylor University senior. The thing she kept talking about was, "Mom, this guy's
a really good Christian." >> Just three months after meeting, Matt and Carrie suddenly announced they were
getting married. >> Did you like him? >> My daughter loved him, and I saw him through her eyes.
>> By their first anniversary, Carrie was pregnant with [music] daughter Kenzie.
>> Oh, she was so excited. She really was a terrific mom. A second daughter, Cassidy, followed a year and a half
later. >> She loved her girls. You know, you know how you feel. There are no words.
>> But right after Cassid's [music] first birthday, doctors discovered a brain tumor and she was hospitalized.
>> There'd be days that it looked really good, prognosis was good, and then turned around and [music] went right
back downhill. >> How did Carrie deal with that? >> Oh my gosh. She was just there with her baby. Just
did not leave her. [music] >> In late February 1999, after a 90-day bedside vigil, Cassidy was well enough
to go home. >> I always [music] assumed that she would pull through this and fight through
this. >> But just after midnight on March 22nd, [music] Cassidy was rushed to the
emergency room. This time, doctors couldn't save her. [music] to sit there and struggle that far, to
come [music] what I thought was so far, to watch her die, you know, that was that was devastating.
It really was a very hard hard thing to cope with, >> especially for Carrie. How hard did she
take that death? >> Oh, incredibly hard. She lost her child and she grieved hard.
A grief counselor helped Carrie get through the first year. And in 2000, a third daughter, Grace, was born. But
Matt says his wife was never the same. >> I don't think it [music] was a split second. All of a sudden, she was
completely different. It was a gradual changing of a person. She had um almost two personalities in a way. not not
negative, but when she went to work, she she had the ability to put [music] issues behind her and focus on work.
>> And the other personality, >> the other personality was a little bit more [music] withdrawn at home.
>> The way Matt tells it, he became Mr. Mom to Kenzie and Grace. >> So, I typically [music] gave them their
bath, wash their hair, get them dressed, put them to bed, sing them their songs,
and read them their books. And from the time Cassidy died, [music] Matt says Carrie relied on pills to sleep.
>> What kind of sleeping pills? What would she take? >> Unisome. >> An over-the-counter [music]
sleep medication. But Matt says sometimes she borrowed something stronger from [music] family and
friends. >> I'm not even sure what the names would be. Other sleeping pills just to help
her sleep, help her get a good night's sleep. And the toughest time for Carrie was
always the March anniversary of Cassid's death. >> It was always two or three weeks leading
up to it. It's coming. It's coming. I can't do this. I can't make it another year. I can't do this again.
>> In April 2006, [music] 7 years after Cassidy died, Matt says Carrie was still
struggling with the loss. So, he took her to the doctor who diagnosed her as depressed and prescribed an
anti-depressant. And about that time, my wife started almost hyperventilating again in the
office. [music] Didn't like him saying anything about depression. She would never agree that that could be a
problem. >> As they left the clinic and headed onto the highway, Matt says Carrie had a
meltdown >> and I'm at about 45 50 m an hour and she is hyperventilating and she attempts to
open the car door um as we're driving down the road. [music] >> Why? She said she needed to get out and
get some air. To get some air to get some air. >> He says he grabbed hold of her waistband
[music] until he could pull off the highway. >> Did you [music] feel that those actions
indicated that she was trying to kill herself? >> I didn't think suicide. I thought she
just wanted fresh air and wasn't thinking. She lost it for a second. >> Later that week on Friday, April 7th,
Carrie had a crucial interview for a new job at the junior high. >> What was her mood like? [music]
Her movie that day was nervous. >> And after the interview, Matt says Carrie didn't feel well.
>> She wasn't laying over like this. It was just tired. I'm tired. [music] That I
mean, just just kind of exhausted. >> That evening, despite a queasy stomach, Matt says Carrie drank a wine cooler.
>> She went to bed and off and on, dozing off and on, watching TV. I'm in bed with
her, taking care of the kids. At 10:30 with the kids in bed, Matt says [music] Carrie asked him to gas up the car and
rent a movie. >> And I thought, "It's late. All right, but I'll do it." You know, [music] if
your wife asks, you do what your wife asks. And so I got dressed and left the house a little after 11:00. Oh, it's
probably about 2 miles to the [music] first gas station that I could fill up at. Um, and got out, pumped the gas, um,
went up [music] to the movie place, rented the movie, and drove back home. When he returned around midnight, Matt
says he found [music] the bedroom door was locked. >> And so I go in and I get the little
screwdriver that can fit in there and I pop the button, [music] open the door. She was naked in bed. And I call her
name and she doesn't respond. >> At 12:01 a.m., he called for help. >> And as I'm calling 911, I'm deciding
[music] I don't want them to see her naked, so I put her clothes on her. Matt says at the same time he was on [music]
the phone, he was also moving Carrie to the floor where he began CPR. >> She's not breathing. What are you
thinking has happened to her? >> I I wasn't processing at any point in time [music] what had happened to her.
>> Paramedics arrived within minutes, but it was too late. Carrie was dead. Police
found an empty bottle of Unisome next to a note. I'm so sorry. It read. I love you, Matt. [music] I want to give
Cassidy a hug. I need to feel her again. [music] It was all the evidence the small town police needed.
>> The detective that night pulled me into the um kitchen. He goes, "Well, she took
her own life. There's a note. There's [music] pills. There's no signs of struggle. It's pretty obvious what
happened." And and that point my heart sunk. I didn't I couldn't believe it. That was the first
time for sure that's what they claimed it to be. We were truly in shock. It was almost
like we were in a trance. And all I kept thinking about, all Jim kept thinking about was that we didn't have a
daughter. Our daughter was gone. >> The county doesn't have a medical examiner, so police just described the
case over the phone to a justice of the peace who determined that Carrie Baker died from an overdose of unisome. No
autopsy needed. 2 days later, she was buried. And that might have been the end of this
story if not for a group of tenacious women. We wanted to clear Carrie's name. Matt was going around talking about what
a depressed, suicidal person she was. We knew she wasn't. >> She was just a very alive person all the
time. >> And those girls, she had them going. You really miss her, don't you, Jim?
>> As out of character as suicide seemed, Carrie Baker's parents, Jim and Linda Dulan, say they had no choice but to
believe it. >> We kept trying to convince ourselves what other alternative was there. The
idea that Matt could have taken her life was more horrible. But that's exactly what Linda's family
thinks. >> He killed her. >> Linda's sisters, Nancy, Kay, and Jennifer, and niece Lindsay.
>> I immediately thought Matt did it. >> You believe that? >> Oh, yeah. With all my heart. Carrie
loved her life. She loved her family. She would never have left those girls. From the start, they tried to convince
Linda that Carrie's death needed to be investigated. >> She said, "Drop it." And we all just
said, "Okay, okay." And then we all walked out together to the cars and we said, "That's not happening."
>> He could always say she called, you know, but no. >> Linda's younger sister, Nancy, says
Matt's story about Carrie's last day simply didn't match anyone else's. >> He had said that day Carrie was sick.
You don't believe that? No. >> No. People that saw her said she wasn't. >> And would a sick, tired Carrie ask Matt
to put gas in the car and rent a movie? >> That makes sense. >> No. At 11:00. >> And they certainly don't believe that if
Carrie did commit suicide that she would ever be found in the nude. Nothing seemed to make sense. Not even the
choice of the sleeping aid unisome. She actually took a generic brand. She called it a sleepy time.
>> She said her sleepy time pill. >> They also say that Carrie's unhappiness in the last weeks of her life wasn't
about Cassidy. [music] According to her former grief counselor, Carrie was worried about herself.
>> And she said, "I saw Carrie in therapy. She was afraid that her husband was having an affair and afraid that he was
trying to kill her." That was just three days before Carrie died. And there's more. Linda's sisters began
sharing secrets they had kept from her all these years. >> I didn't realize that no one in the
family had liked him. [music] >> They began to tell Linda about Matt's odd and even borish behavior. He had
come up behind my daughter and made some just really inappropriate sexual comment
to her. >> There were several unsettling incidents like in 1996 when Carrie lived with Matt
in this complex. Deianne Avalo says the preacher tried to pick up her 16-year-old daughter.
>> He asked her, "Have you ever been kissed by a boy?" She said, "Yes." and he just
suddenly grabbed her and kissed her right on the lips. >> At one church youth center, Matt was
warned about his behavior with young women. He never seemed to stay long at any job.
>> Every time he'd moved from a job, I would think I he did something to someone.
>> And there was this woman, Laura Wilson, met Matt in 1991. top first one >> when they were both student athletic
trainers at Baylor University. One day she says they were cleaning an empty locker room when he suddenly
grabbed her. He lifts me up off the floor and he sits on one of the benches with me on his lap
and that's when he begins running his hand up my thigh and between my legs. >> Matt denies ever touching Laura.
Instead, he says he inadvertently scared her that day by turning out the lights.
>> Did you ever assault or harass any of these women? >> I did not. And >> none.
>> None. >> So, if these women say you did, they are lying. >> Correct. >> I wanted Matt to be okay. I wanted him
to be a good man, but it didn't add up. Nothing adds up. Linda finally began to see Matt through
her sister's eyes, but persuading the local police to reopen the investigation into Carrie's death was going to be far
more difficult. >> They didn't do their job and they didn't take us serious. And I don't think we
were asking them to believe that Carrie was murdered. We just wanted an investigation.
>> The police had concluded that Carrie committed suicide. Only a few photographs were taken at the
scene. The only evidence collected was the unison bottle, the remaining pills, and the type suicide note. Why do you
think the police were so willing to accept this as a suicide immediately? >> He's a pastor.
>> He's a preacher. >> So, what did you all do? >> We began an investigation. >> All of you?
>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Calling themselves Charlie's Angels. >> Linda was Charlie [music] and we were
the angels. [laughter] They began making phone calls. >> Did you talk to Kay or Jennifer?
>> Following [music] every lead and retracing Matt's movements the night Carrie died.
>> We weren't going to give up. Somebody was going to listen to us. >> Their biggest [music] discovery came
unexpectedly when Linda took a look at Matt and Car's [music] cell phone records. And before I
opened it up, I just said a little prayer and I just said, "Okay, God, help me out here." I said, "Give me a sign."
And I opened up the phone bill and oh my gosh, >> the record showed 10 days after Carrie
died, someone began using her cell phone. >> And who was using it? >> Vanessa Bulls. Matt had given it to
Vanessa. Vanessa Bulls, a young woman who attended Matt's church. Weren't you talking a lot to this young woman?
>> We often did. We did. We did often talk. >> And weren't you interested in her?
>> I never thought of a relationship with her at all. That never was anything in
the back of my mind. >> But phone records show almost 1700 minutes of calls between Matt and
Vanessa in just 10 days. Jim had highlighted on there and it looked like he got on the phone as soon as he took
the girls to school and stayed on the phone with her most of the day. It was crazy.
I needed a friend. I needed somebody to look me in the face and say, "I'm sorry you lost your wife."
>> But the records show Matt began calling Vanessa before Carrie died. >> Did you have an affair with Vanessa?
>> Oh, no I did not. There was never any relationship at all other than a friendship.
>> Vanessa told the police they did begin dating, but only after [music] Car's death.
>> This is a man who has [music] a very, very dark, evil side. He was praying on other women and then
finally he found one who it looked like something might go somewhere with. And I believe Carrie was
in the way. Armed with a possible motive, Linda hired Bill Johnston, a dogged former
federal prosecutor, and his team of investigators. >> All of a sudden, all the shock I'd been
feeling, all this numbness, it was just like it just washed right off of me. And
I thought, "Okay, Linda, we're going to find out what's going on here." And after that we went into battle mode.
3 months after Carrie Baker was laid to rest, her parents had her body removed from the grave and autopsied.
What made [music] you decide to exume your daughter's body? That had to be a tough decision, wasn't it? [sighs]
>> Oh, yes. Because we needed that information. >> Linda Dulan was determined to find out
how her daughter died. Although the authorities ruled it a suicide, she suspected the Matt Baker was
responsible. >> He's indicated he'll talk to anyone and it'd be nice if he talked to us, too.
>> Sure. Attorney Bill Johnston and his investigators found much of the evidence
troubling. [music] >> We never heard of a type suicide note. At least it needed a signature.
And on the table [music] next to the note were pins. Rather convenient, you know, if someone
wanted to sign it. >> They found more disturbing evidence in the computer network that serves the
entire youth center where Matt worked as a chaplain. One month before Carrie died, he began conducting online
searches for overdose on sleeping pills and on the prescription drug ambient. Even though Carrie didn't have a
prescription for that drug, Matt's explanation, >> it scared me that she was taking that
much sleeping medicine to get to sleep at night. It took a lot to wake her up in the morning sometimes.
>> But if you were concerned, wouldn't you mention it to her doctor? At that point,
I didn't think it was necessary to tell the doctor because I thought she was getting it under control.
>> When investigators asked to examine Matt's actual computer that was on his desk, they discovered it wasn't his.
Sometime in midJune, when the search for evidence got underway, someone had replaced Matt's desktop computer with
his secretaries, and Matt's had vanished. And why would anyone want to take that computer?
>> I have no clue. I don't know why. >> Was there something on that computer you
didn't want anyone to see? >> Oh, no. There's I mean, absolutely not. >> Investigators also have no idea whether
there was anything incriminating on Matt's home computer. Matt says the hard drive crashed and is no longer working.
>> It's just a coincidence that the hard drive on your home computer is fried and
the computer from work disappeared. Just a coincidence. >> Computers crash all the time.
>> The more Bill Johnston heard, the more he was convinced that Linda Doulan's doubts about her son-in-law might be
right. >> There's more to this guy than just some guy that's preaching on Sunday. There's
a dark side here. >> Do you believe Matt Baker is a dangerous man? >> Oh, sure. You bet. He's dangerous.
Johnston believes that because when Carrie told her grief counselor that she thought Matt was trying to kill her,
Carrie confided that she found a mysterious bottle of crushed pills in Matt's briefcase.
>> He gave her a story. Oh, that's from the kids at the center. The kids don't take
their meds and they spit them out. That must be what that is. >> Matt told 48 Hours a very different
story. He said there were pills, but they were carries and had never been in his briefcase.
>> She comes out with a bottle of pills and she looks at me and she says, "I found
these in there." >> Was that bottle of of crush pills in your briefcase? >> I don't know where she found it. I never
had it. I've I never saw it before. She had it in her hands >> and the pills are now gone.
You know what Matt says? Matt says she threw out the crush pills. That Matt offered to have them tested and she put
them down the sink. >> There you go. The only person that could refute it is not here.
>> I take it you don't believe it. >> Not for a second. No. >> As Johnston's suspicions mounted, he
convinced his [music] friend, Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon, to look at the case. Cthon 2 suspected foul play and
became frustrated by the faulty police investigation. >> What kind of evidence should have been
taken in that night? >> There was a computer printer there. There were uh bottles of alcohol there
and of course an autopsy would have been a tremendous uh assistance to the investigation, but it wasn't ordered.
>> How much pressure did you have to put on the Hua Police Department to take a new
look at this case? >> It was considerable pressure. In September 2006, the results of
Carrie's autopsy done three months after her body was embalmed and buried finally
came in. And still no proof of how Carrie died. No remnants of pills were found in Car's stomach, but there was
evidence of ambient in her muscle tissue, the same sleeping drug Matt researched on the internet. Bill
Johnston points to the photos taken the night Carrie died which showed discoloration around Car's nose and
lips. An indication he says she may have been suffocated. >> There was an slight abrasion to her nose
consistent with a rough pillow or some object that maybe has fibers that scrape across.
The court is of the opinion. >> There are enough questions [music] that 18 months after Carrie Baker died, the
justice of the piece declared her death was no longer classified as suicide. >> Carolyn Baker's manner and cause of
death shall be recorded as undetermined. >> The police now had a possible homicide
on their hands. On September 21st, 2007, the former [music] pastor was arrested and charged with murder.
>> I guess the the foolishness in my part was if you never do anything wrong, you won't get
arrested. >> Matt posted bond and returned home to his daughters. >> And I'm just waiting for the day that I
can grieve with my children, the loss of my wife and their mother. He says [music] he is the victim of insidious
innuendo and wild speculation. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Have you been able to get work? Not
after the arrest. Not after the [music] arrest. >> And Matt has found a powerful ally.
>> I think Matt Baker is being railroaded. >> Like Bill Johnston, Guy James Gray was
once a highprofile prosecutor. The more that I know about Matt, the less I believe that he is the type to take
somebody's life. >> Gray [music] says Carrie's despair is spelled out in her own heartbreaking
entries she wrote in her Bible [music] after her daughter died. >> This paragraph is about how good heaven
is. [music] And then she writes out beside it, I want to go with Cassidy. Gray also says he can explain some of
the seemingly incriminating circumstances. >> What about the abrasion on the nose and
possibly on her lip? >> Well, the first thing the emergency people did when they got there was put
one of these artificial CPR deals over her mouth. >> But Bill Johnson says that the abrasion
had to have been left there before Carrie died and that Matt is the one who caused it. According to Johnston, the
most damaging evidence comes [music] from Matt Baker himself. People did say she was very upset with you. Why was she
so upset with you? It had to be somebody's fault and I have to be the fall guy for it.
Facing murder charges in Waco, Matt Baker retreated to his childhood home in Kurville, Texas, where his old friends
were outraged at the accusations. >> I thought that he was the least likely to be charged with murder.
>> Matt is a sweet, loving, caring, tender-hearted person. >> It just is inconsistent with his
character. >> That's also how Jill Hots, Carrie Baker's close friend, once felt about
Matt. He was a good friend. I mean, he taught my son to tie his shoes. >> But today, she no longer believes in
Matt, nor the story he tells about Carrie. >> And I know she didn't take her own life.
Someone with that kind of a zest for life, that kind of fight for life. She's not going to take her own life, and she
didn't do that. >> Why does Jill suspect Matt? because of a conversation she had with Carrie just
days before her death. >> She she she was very very upset. >> And when you say upset, crying. She's
crying extremely hard on the phone. And I said, "Carrie, what what's wrong?" And
she said, "I think Matt is is seeing someone else." And you know how you have those moments
in your life that you wish that she could just redo the whole thing? And I tried to reassure that Matt loved
her and he wouldn't do that. [snorts] >> And Carrie told Jill that her preacher husband did something far worse. He
blamed her for their child's death. >> She said that Matt accused her of praying [music] for Cassidy not to have
to suffer anymore. And he said that God answered Car's prayer instead of his prayer, which was [music] for Cassidy to
live to be an old lady and to have a full life. >> Carrie said that Matt blamed her
>> for Cassid's death. >> Yes. >> And how did she take that? >> Extremely hard. >> No, I never blamed her for the death.
She misunderstood what I had said. I said that it hurt me that she felt her her prayer was answered and mine wasn't.
Judge for yourself. Matt sent Carrie this email just days before she spoke with Jill. I know deep down I hold a
grudge against God and you for him answering your prayer and not mine. He wrote in some ways I do hold you to
blame for her death. >> She said that that was the worst thing that she's ever heard and she didn't
think that they could ever recover from that. The day after Carrie confided in Jill was when Carrie told her counselor
she thought Matt was trying to kill her. The counselor confronted Matt at Carrie's [music] funeral.
>> What was your reaction? >> And I said, "What? Well, wait, wait." And I'm like, "What's going on here?"
That was just kind of just completely rattled everything that was going on at that time.
>> Matt denies he had any reason to kill Carrie. He denies cheating on her. And remember earlier he had insisted that
the woman he spent so much time with, Vanessa Bulls, was only a friend. >> I never thought of a relationship with
her at all. That never was anything in the back of my mind. >> You asked her parents whether you could
date her. >> Yes. Later in the summer. >> So you were interested in Vanessa. You
did want to date Vanessa. >> Yes. During the summer, absolutely I did. According to Matt, Car's severe
anxiety was apparent to everyone who saw her in those days leading up to her death. But we couldn't find anyone to
confirm that. On the contrary, even her close friend Jill says that when she last spoke to Carrie, Carrie seemed
happier and said things had improved with Matt. >> The day before she died, she was
completely elated and she said that, you know, we're trying to get everything patched back together. So, she was she
was very hopeful, very future oriented. >> Those who saw Carrie on her last day say
her spirits were much higher than earlier in the week. Her friend Todd Munzy says she looked forward to the
prospect of a new job. >> She told me she had a great interview. Was so excited about it and yeah, we we
had a good high five right there in the hallway. But that very night, Carrie died. And her parents' attorney, Bill
Johnston, says there are serious inconsistencies in Matt's story. >> Unfortunately for Matt Baker, he didn't
buy enough time for himself. He should have painted a couple hours of alibi. >> Matt is very specific about what time he
left Carrie to put gas in the car and get movies. >> I remember when I was getting dressed
and ready to leave, the clock said 11:11. Yet he seems unclear about Carrie's state when he left.
>> We talked about everything that I was supposed to get and I left. >> She was awake.
>> She was awake. >> She was awake when you >> correct >> when you left. >> Oh, yeah. We we had a conversation. I
ran, you know, leaned down and kissed her on the forehead before I left. >> But listen to what he said to us two
months later. >> And she was talking. She said goodbye to you. >> Um, she had rolled back over and gone
back to sleep. So when I left, she was asleep. And remember how Matt says he [music] first found out that Carrie
killed herself? >> The police officer brings me the note and that was my that was the first
thought at that point [music] in time. She took her own life. >> Yet he had clearly read the note when he
called the 911 operator. >> I think my wife just committed suicide. >> Her lips are blue hands are are are cold
and there's a note that says I'm sorry. Basically, >> you read the note. You had said to the
operator. She says I'm sorry. But I did not read the full note. I saw the note, but as I picked up the phone, I saw it
there, but I did not take the time to read the note. >> The police told Matt the cause of death
was obvious. >> There's a note. There's pills. >> It was all too obvious, says attorney
Bill Johnston. >> Here's some wine coolers to match the story. They were drinking a wine cooler.
And the note then is I just have to say self- serving. Matt, I'm sorry. Oh, Matt, take care of the kids. you know,
not critical of him in any way. >> Johnston also points out signs of levidity on Car's body, the pooling of
blood that happens after death. An indication, he says, that Carrie had been dead far longer than the 40 or so
minutes that Matt claims he was away. She had to ingest something that made her sleepy, then unconscious, then
killed her, and she had to quit breathing. Heart had to stop, and then the ledity had to begin.
>> And he is not the only one who questions Matt's [music] story. What parts of Matt
Baker's story bother you? >> Just the time frame. That that's really what bothers me the most. Steven Kh, a
toxicologist 48 Hours Consulted, says that if Carrie were alive when Matt said he left the house, her body would not be
cold to the touch. As both Matt and a paramedic reported, >> being cold in an hour is non-existent
unless you're killed in the Arctic or in an ice box. >> But KH cautions, there simply isn't
enough evidence to say how and why Carrie died. Do you believe that this is a suicide?
No, but I cannot determine the cause of death and wouldn't certify it as anything but undetermined.
>> Matt, did you kill your wife? Did you have anything to do with her death that
night? >> No, I did not. Was I the perfect person? Did I do everything correct? No. But I
didn't hurt my wife. I loved my wife. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with
her. Matt had been arrested and charged with murder, but the DA had not yet brought
the case to a grand jury. That's a requirement under Texas law for a murder case to go to trial. How easy is it to
actually take someone to trial for murder when even the coroner can't determine that that a murder occurred?
>> Extremely difficult. Matt's attorney, Guy James Gray, was [music] determined to get the charges
dropped, and he had plenty of support from Matt's friends. >> I think it should be [music] thrown out.
>> I just don't feel that having the spirit of God in you that you can do something
like this, I just don't think you could do it. [music] >> [music] >> I have the people that support me.
I have my family. >> I have my daughters. As the second anniversary of Carrie's death approached, [music] Matt Baker and
his daughters were still living with his parents in Kurville. >> Oh, there goes Mama Cat.
>> His relationship with Vanessa Bulls was over. His life in limbo. >> Wait, no. No, no, no. Open it all the
way. >> Do you think you'll be indicted? >> I I don't know. >> Wait for dad to help you.
>> I don't know where I go from here. It was falling apart and >> that's why there's teeth marks in it.
[laughter] >> There is such an unknown of what tomorrow holds. >> While murder charges against Matt are
pending in Texas in order to go to trial, the DA also has to get a grand jury indictment
within [music] 180 days. >> Are you worried that there just isn't enough evidence to actually take him to
trial? >> No. >> No, we're not. Time runs out. On [music] March 25th, 2008, all criminal charges are dropped
against Matt Baker. >> Was it a murder? Was it a suicide? That was the major question in the case.
>> Assistant DA Crawford Long. >> We felt we didn't have the evidence to go forward with a criminal indictment at
that time. They went through these facts just like I did and they're simply not sufficient
facts to establish a murder. >> It is a tremendous relief. [music] The criminal part is in the past and
that's a tremendous blessing. >> Justice was not served. >> Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon is
disappointed but not surprised. It is frustrating, but the evidence was there. Every turn,
we were we were turned away. >> This is a man you believed killed his wife and he's walking free.
>> Well, you know, Aaron, it happens every day. And in this case, something went arry.
>> This is Bill. But Bill Johnston knows there's no statute of limitations on murder. So he's not giving up
>> because sooner or later I think that criminal justice system will deal with with Matt Baker. I just believe it's
going to happen. >> The battle is far from over. Linda and her team are pursuing [music] Matt in
civil court. >> Civil case >> suing him for wrongful death. They allow different evidence and civil
cases and that one's more of a problem for him now. >> I'm going to meet with Bill,
>> especially with Car's mother and her angels on the case. >> We are going [music] to continue to do
what we have been doing and that is we are going to seek justice [music] and I believe with every fiber in my being
that we will have it. But in the year that follows, tremendous changes take place. For Linda, there's a
physical transformation and an emotional one. As Carrie's case takes a dramatic turn.
What changed things? >> The thing that changed things was Vanessa Bull's testimony.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you're giving this matter to be the truth? >> Matt Baker will never get away with
murder. He will pay. >> Grand jury indicted Baker. >> They are indicting Matt Baker for
murder. I remember just calling Chinese. I was overwhelmed. How important is Vanessa BS? She's key. He counted on her
keeping her mouth shut. [music] That was his life full of dirty little secrets. you really need to turn
yourself in or I'm going to tell what you did. And he said, "You better not do that.
[music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> My name is Linda [music] Dulan and
Carrie Baker is my daughter. I [music] believe that her life was taken by her husband, Matt.
>> [music] >> I don't believe that a person should be able to walk free after he's murdered
someone. And this someone is my daughter. And it's time that we [music] should have been grieving for our
daughter that we've been fighting for a cause. >> [music] >> a former pastor in Kurville behind bars
tonight [music] accused of murdering his wife more than a year ago. >> You've got a man who's extremely
concerned about [music] his public persona. And it's very important to him to be viewed as the perfect father, the
perfect husband, the perfect Christian, the perfect preacher. But in reality, he lives his [music]
day-to-day life very differently. >> I am Matt Baker, and I have been called a cheater, an adulterer, a murderer, a
liar. And that's the farthest [music] thing from the truth. But authorities finally have enough evidence to say Matt
Baker gave his wife Carrie Baker a lethal cocktail of sleeping pills and alcohol to her nose and bruises to her
lips indicate [music] she was also smothered with a pillow. >> Matt Baker was very good at hiding
[music] his dark side. In her gut, she was figuring it out, but she didn't listen [music] to those instincts.
>> How could they think this of me? They know I'm not capable of hurting [music]
Carrie. They know that. I don't believe she committed suicide. There's too much about the staged crime scene to believe
that >> Vanessa Bulls was a key to this whole thing. Uh she [music] was maybe the the
missing link. She was the quote other woman. Murders have occurred for less. >> Did he ever send you song lyrics?
>> Yes, he sent me song [music] lyrics to the song Dirty Little Secret. It went um
I'll keep you my dirty little secret. Don't [music] tell anyone or you'll be just another regret.
>> You start connecting the dots and you start getting a picture of what was really going on here. My name is Matt
Coffin and at the [music] time of Carrie Baker's death, I was a sergeant in the Texas Rangers.
>> Matt Baker has been behind these walls, but today he was released from jail. >> At that point, the investigation was
stymied. something else was going to have to cause the do the next domino to fall.
>> Doesn't matter how long it takes. We're in it till the end. You can't hide dirty little secrets
forever. I'm Aaron Morardi. Dirty little secrets. >> [music] >> Carrie [music] was a very good
minister's wife. Faith was very [music] important in her life. Linda and Jim Dulan are convinced that
their daughter Carrie was murdered by the man they [music] once embraced as a son-in-law, Baptist preacher Matt Baker.
>> This was a man who was capable of the ultimate evil. >> Matt has always claimed that his wife
committed suicide, just as he told the 911 operator a little after midnight on April 8th, 2006.
It was 911. Do you have an emergency? Uh, >> yes. I think my wife just committed
suicide. >> He said he went out to get a video and gas for his car. When he arrived home,
he found his wife lifeless on the bed, an empty bottle of unisome, and a suicide note on the table.
>> I felt to see if she was breathing. She was [music] not. I shook her. She didn't
answer. >> Their daughters, Kenzie, nine, and Grace 5, were asleep in nearby bedrooms. Matt
says it was because of another daughter, Cassidy, that Carrie took her own life.
She never stopped grieving for Cassidy, who had a brain tumor and died 7 years earlier.
>> That that was a tough time for her. >> Every year, >> did it get better as the years went on?
>> It had never got better for her. But Carrie's mom and her family did not believe that Carrie would have abandoned
her living children. And that suicide note, it was typed, even the signature. Linda grew more suspicious when she
discovered that there were numerous phone calls between Matt and a young parishioner named Vanessa Bulls. [music]
>> We talked a lot, but I talked to a lot of friends, so it's not >> Did you have an affair with Vanessa? Oh,
no I did not. There was never any relationship at all other than a friendship. >> Matt certainly didn't seem like he had
anything to hide. He voluntarily spoke with the Huitt police a few months after Carrie died.
>> And so since then it has grown into a good friendship, you know, and and I know for a fact my
in-laws don't like that. and he wasn't shy about airing his grievances against the Doulans who had been pushing the
police to investigate. >> I think they're mad that they think I'm moving on. I guess they think I'm moving
on too quickly. >> Matt patiently answered every question they posed. >> She was laying in the bed.
>> Mhm. >> Okay. Was she clothed? >> She was not. She had her She had her I'm trying to remember. No, she was naked.
The police also questioned Vanessa. >> Like I said, you're not under arrest and this doesn't mean that you're
>> I'm sorry. This is just scary. >> I know. I know. >> Who denied any affair with Matt?
>> Did you ever meet him romantically? >> No. >> Never. Okay. >> And that, it seemed, was the end of the
police investigation. Linda was frustrated and felt the only way she'd know what happened to Carrie
was to find out herself. So she hired attorney Bill Johnson and his team of investigators.
>> We became convinced that he'd done it. >> It seemed like that every expert we
talked to told us that it could not have happened the way Matt Baker said it happened.
>> Matt said he was only gone [music] for about 40 minutes, but Car's body showed
signs of levidity, the pooling of blood after death. The experts said it was unlikely that Carrie could have ingested
[music] drugs, died, and reached that state in such a short period of time. Moreover, records salvaged from Matt's
workplace server were incriminating. >> We got to parts of it that showed he had
searched terms like overdose and death by sleeping pills. >> Johnston felt the police dropped the
ball, but he was hamstrung. There was no autopsy and the death was classified as
suicide. >> There was a guy who was holding a Bible on Sunday telling everybody how to live
and he'd murdered his wife. Every minute that went by, Baker was closer to getting away with it and he knew it.
>> Johnston turned to Matt Cawthon, an old friend who was a member of the Texas Rangers, the statewide law enforcement
team. Cthon agreed unofficially to help. >> The next step in my mind was to obtain
records from telephones, any other type of records that that we might need. >> To get those documents, Cthon needed the
district attorney's help. He was turned down flat. >> I could not understand why I could not
have the basic tools that I needed to continue with this. Cawthon persisted and finally [music]
convinced the authorities to conduct an autopsy 3 months after Carrie died. It was too [music] late to test for drugs
in her blood. But they did find unisome in her muscle tissue along with traces of ambient, a drug Carrie was [music]
not known to take. The manner of death was changed from suicide to undetermined. [music]
In September 2007, a year and a half after Carrie died, the police now felt they had a homicide on their hands.
Matt Baker [music] was arrested and charged with murder. He was released on bond thanks to [music] powerhouse
attorney Guy James Gray, who took the case pro bono. >> I only take the cases that I believe
[music] in with all my heart, and this is one of them. And Gray says this is an [music] injustice.
>> You can't go forward with a murder case unless you can establish that it is a
homicide. So you have to establish [music] cause of death. And that forensically is just not possible in
this case. 6 months after Matt Baker was arrested, his fate changed again dramatically.
>> Heavenly Father, we thank you so much for our food, for our family, for our friends. Amen.
>> Assistant District Attorney Crawford Long had decided it was too risky to take Matt to trial. So, he dropped the
murder charges. >> The evidence was too speculative. Couldn't get beyond a reasonable doubt
with that. It's not was it a crime and who committed it, but was it a crime at all?
But Matt wasn't off the hook. Carrie's mother, Linda Doulan, had decided to sue him for wrongful death.
>> I'm angry. And all he's doing is making us more determined to uncover the truth.
>> We've got a guy on the street that's a killer. And I wasn't going to let a guy
like that outsmart me or outplay me. Linda's attorney, Bill Johnston, and his investigators were hoping any new
evidence they might dig up for the civil case would help rebuild a criminal one.
>> We have to try to do such a good job >> and have the evidence be so clear and so
strong that a prosecutor looking at it will say, "I can do that, too." >> And Johnston had an advantage.
>> Rolling around the record. >> In a civil case, he could depose Matt Baker under oath and on camera. He was
foolish enough to allow me to. >> Did you have a sexual relationship with any woman in the year
prior to Car's death other than Carrie? >> No. >> He could have played the Fifth
Amendment. While you have 911 on the phone, you're dressing or how long did it take to dress her back?
>> Uh, again, probably just seconds. Not very long at all. >> All right. He clearly described things
that were impossible. >> Do you think Matt Baker knows what he's up against? No.
>> Her up first like this toward me. >> He's used to conning people and having them do what he wants.
>> What Matt didn't anticipate was that Crawford Long and fellow prosecutor Susan Schaefer weren't giving up because
they too believed Matt killed Carrie. The problem was proving it. >> You get one bite at that apple and if
you get an aqu quiddle, it's over. All the evidence prosecutors had was circumstantial.
What they really wanted was the testimony of this woman, Vanessa Bulls, [music] whom they suspected was Matt's lover
before Carrie died. >> How important is Vanessa Bulls to this case? She's key. >> Key because prosecutors believed she
knew some of Matt's secrets. So far, Vanessa has had little to say to law enforcement.
>> I I don't mind talking to y'all, but this is, you know, taking time out of my
schedule. >> The only thing she admitted was that she dated Matt and only after Carrie died.
>> After after Yes. >> after >> after his wife passed away. >> After Okay. Okay.
>> Because I didn't think there was anything wrong. >> Okay. >> Did you believe her?
>> No. Prosecutors had the phone records and a jewelry store clerk who saw Matt and
Vanessa checking out wedding rings just weeks after Carrie died. >> I wanted a shot at her real bad.
>> Working with prosecutors was Abden Rodriguez, a savvy investigator with a reputation
for convincing the most reluctant witnesses to talk. >> That's one of my specialties.
Rodriguez carefully studied Vanessa's interview. >> Did you start to feel like he he was
kind of pursuing you a little bit? >> Um, I didn't really want to think that because he seemed happily married.
>> I could tell that you were lying. There was information there and I could tell
that that that she had, but she didn't want to give it up. >> And for good reason. Rodriguez knew
Vanessa had everything to lose if she admitted knowing anything about the crime.
>> Why don't y'all have then talk to Matt Baker? You know, >> I said we're going to have to break her.
>> Matt isn't talking with us anymore >> because she's the one that knows exactly
what took place here. >> But after interviewing her, [music] Vanessa was still holding back. So, the
prosecution gambled and subpoenaed her to testify before the grand jury. Was that a little risky?
>> We didn't have anything to lose. >> Crawford Long gave Vanessa immunity, promising not to use her testimony
against her. Abden Rodriguez added a warning. >> I know what you did. I know what you know.
>> And I said, you better tell the truth as I said, I'm going to be sitting there
[music] and if you pure yourself, said we will turn around and and charge you with it. But on the stand, Vanessa stuck
with her story until this question. >> I said, "Did Matt ever tell you anything about Carrie's death?" And she said,
"Yes." He said, "I killed her for you." My jaw probably dropped down on my chest.
>> Matt even told Vanessa how he did it. He told her that he had smothered her. >> Nearly 3 years after Carrie's death,
Crawford Long had all the proof he needed to finally indict Matt Baker. >> Oh my gosh.
>> It was unbelievable news for Linda Dulan. >> I remember just falling to my knees and
I was crying and I was overwhelmed. In March 2009, Matt Baker was rearrested and charged with Carrie's murder.
>> How do you wish to plead? >> Not guilty. >> And the state star witness, Vanessa
Bulls. >> I don't think she [music] stole everything. >> I know. I know. I mean, there's still
more. All right. >> The stakes are so high. >> Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please
be seated. >> This is what we had been working for, the criminal trial. Nearly 4 years after
claiming he found his wife dead, >> Harry's [music] last day of life was on Friday, April 7th, 2006. Matt Baker is
now on trial for murder. >> You'll hear Matt Baker say his wife has just committed suicide, that he's found
a note, but Matt has a variety of stories about what happened that night. >> Matt was a dangerous man. He had to be
stopped before he hurt someone else. >> Carrie's mother, Linda, is surrounded by
her family. >> To me, he looked smug. He looked [music] like he's going to get away with this.
You'll hear him repeatedly and consistently say, "He never had an affair with Vanessa Bulls." You're going
to hear from Vanessa Bulls. You're going to see her. >> Assistant District Attorney Susan
Schaefer promises the jury that they will meet the [music] other woman. >> She's going to tell you how Matt brought
her into their marital bed while Carrie was still alive. >> Matt has always denied that affair. So,
no one in the courtroom was quite prepared for what his defense attorney, Guy James Gray, had to say.
>> Matt Baker was in fact having an affair. >> I got fooled. Got fooled by Matt Baker.
>> When did you realize that Matt was lying about his involvement with Vanessa BS?
>> Roughly a month before the trial. Something [music] like that. >> How tough was that guy
>> for me? Pretty tough. >> Both of them lied to [music] their families. Both of them lied to the cops
and both of them lied to try [music] to cover up this affair. >> That doesn't mean Gray says that Matt
killed his wife. Instead, Gray goes on the attack and tells the jury that Carrie was in a precarious emotional
state. >> At the time of her death, she took a mixture of medicine. >> I was trying to steal myself for the
stories they were going to spin about Carrie. She used sleeping pills on a regular basis.
>> She wasn't there to defend herself and that broke my heart. >> Gray also zeros in on the lack of
evidence. >> You've got no physical evidence. [music] >> You will see a lot of suspicion.
>> You got no cause of death. >> You will see a lot of theory. >> You [music] can't even be really certain
that it was a murder. >> Was it a suicide? Was it a murder? I describe it as the most difficult case
I've ever prosecuted. Assistant DA Crawford Long expects to get help from a surprising witness.
>> It's all the truth. [music] Everything that is from me is the truth. >> Matt Baker himself. Matt was unusually
talkative in the years before [music] his trial. >> You're not nervous about talking. If it
ever goes to trial, something [music] you might say here could be used against you.
>> And and if it is, then you deal with it at the time. >> And that time is now. Matt's
contradictions and lies are [music] coming back to haunt him. >> She was awake, >> correct?
>> She was talking and she said goodbye to you. >> When I left, she was asleep. >> While a defendant can't be forced to
testify, everything Matt said already can be used against him at trial. There are interviews with 48 hours.
>> Did you have an affair with Vanessa? >> Oh, no, I did not. >> Civil depositions. So, I proceeded to
talk to 911 operator as I put her clothes on her >> and his statement to police.
>> I knew she was depressed. I knew she was down. >> Matt's claim that Carrie was a
despondent, [music] dysfunctional parent is disputed by witness. >> To me, she never seemed better
>> after witness. [music] >> To me, she seemed excited. >> Even her grief counselor.
>> You did not feel that she was suicidal. Is that right? >> That's right. [music]
>> Okay. Stay call Linda Dan. You solemnly swear the testimony you give in this matter
will be. >> Three days into the trial, Carrie's mom, Linda Dulan, finally comes face to face
with a man she is convinced [music] killed her daughter. >> I am I'm sorry. Mother of Carrie.
>> Do Do you need to take him in? >> No, I'm okay. I I apologize. >> I [music] had this inner dialogue with
myself, telling myself to get it together. Linda testifies that after her daughter died, Carrie's grief counselor
told her that Carrie had found crushed pills in Matt's briefcase. Carrie feared he was going to harm her. Linda later
confronted Matt. >> He told me that clearly some youth had found his briefcase and spit the pills
in there so that they wouldn't have to take them. And that he reported this to security. security at the youth center
where Matt worked. >> Were you able to make any determination that it was reported?
>> It was not reported. [music] >> And there's Matt's claim that in the time it took paramedics to [music]
arrive, around 4 minutes, he managed to dress Carrie in her shirt and panties. >> No, no, no. She's not breathing at all.
No pulse or anything. >> Get her to the floor. >> Oh my. >> And perform CPR. You're going to do it
fast and hard 400 times. >> All while cradling the phone on his shoulder. Do you believe that he is
moving her at all while he's on that 911 call? >> I don't even think he's in the room.
>> Pictures taken the night [music] of Carrie's death also contradict Matt's story.
>> Would you draw where she was on the bed? >> He told investigators that he found
Car's body with both arms [music] stretched out flat on the bed. He actually drew a diagram of how he
claimed her body [music] to be >> on her back. Slightly at an angle. >> Slightly at an angle.
>> There's no way. No way. >> The proof, crime scene photos which show [music] an uneven pooling of blood or
levidity in Carrie's arms. The fact there was more levidity on her left arm as opposed to her right said [music]
what? >> It said that that arm was lower than the rest of her body. Blood sinks to the
lowest point. So either her head was [music] on the other side of the bed with her left arm hanging off or her
head had to be at the foot of the bed with her left arm hanging off. Neither of which was what he described [music]
and diagrammed. >> And then there are those computer searches. Matt visited onlineies
searching for the sleeping pill ambient. [music] >> Is your business, your internet
business, a library or a store? >> We're not in the information business. We're purely a commercial business. This
witness who flew in from Spain says that pharmacy has one purpose. >> The number one reason why you you find
yourself in this situation is because you want to buy something. >> He says Matt attempted to buy a generic
form of ambient and placed it in his online shopping cart, but when cross-examined by defense attorney Gray,
>> they went through the process of looking at it, but it was aborted and no purchase of ambient was made.
>> Correct. Yes. No further question. >> And there's no evidence that he bought ambient anywhere else or that he forced
Carrie to take that or any other drug. >> If there is not clearcut [music] proof, then we don't convict.
>> You solemnly swear the testimony you give in this matter to be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth. >> But the defense's biggest challenge is
yet to come. >> I do. >> When the state star witness [music] takes the stand. We had no knowledge of
what she would say until she testified in the courtroom. >> You really need to turn yourself in or
I'm going to tell what you did. And he said, >> "You better not do that. This witness is a pretty woman.
>> Would you please state your name for the record? >> Yes, it's Vanessa Bulls. >> She obviously loved the attention.
>> I was raised strict Southern Baptist. >> She was a mistress of a preacher. >> Now, you're not saying that at that time
you were pure as the driven snow, right? >> Oh, no. >> That's not good anywhere around here.
That's really not good. Four days into Matt Baker's trial, the moment everyone has been waiting for. [music]
>> For the first time, we were going to hear exactly what happened. >> On the stand, the prosecution's star
witness, the self-confident, almost smug 27-year-old [music] teacher Vanessa Bulls. Were you worried
the jury might really dislike her? >> Oh, yeah. We were very aware of that problem going in.
Assistant DA Susan Schaefer has another problem with the witness. >> There was a lot available for attack by
the [music] defense. >> Did you tell the truth about the affair? >> I know I didn't admit to it.
>> For years, Vanessa Bulls lied to everyone [music] about her relationship with Matt Baker. The jury might just
dismiss her as a liar. >> Sure, >> I completely denied everything. >> But you were willing to go with this.
>> We believed that this was in fact the true story. One time I was sitting by myself in the
church. >> Vanessa begins by telling the jury how she met Matt at church in the fall of
2005. >> He came in and he just sat down, started talking to me and said, "Whoever finds
you is going to be a lucky man." >> Vanessa was a single mom going through a divorce.
>> He said that, you know, he'd counseledled people with divorce before. He said he's lost a child and God could
get you through anything. She says Matt often complained about Carrie. His wife was so depressed. He
said she was a horrible mother, a horrible [music] wife. They didn't have sex anymore.
>> And at the time, were you buying into what he was telling you about Carrie? >> I was buying into everything. [music]
>> In early March 2006, Matt invited Vanessa to continue counseling at his house.
>> He asked if he could hold my hands to pray, and he did. Then afterwards, he started to kiss me. Then he just took my
hand and led me to the bedroom. >> It was the first time she says they had sex. >> I was extremely remorseful. I couldn't
believe what had just happened. >> But still, the affair continued, and so did Matt's bitterness towards his wife.
>> He referred to her as a fat [ __ ] Said that he wanted her out of his life. Just a few weeks later, Carrie was dead.
Within days, Vanessa says Matt told her exactly how he did it. >> He said, "I'm going to tell you what
happened that night one time." Then he said, "I never want to talk about it again."
Under the guise of a romantic evening, Matt gave Carrie a mix of wine coolers and pills he said were sex stimulants.
[music] >> He said he handcuffed her to the bed and started kissing her and touching her all
over until she fell asleep. >> But Vanessa says Matt had filled the capsules [music] with crushed ambient to
knock his wife out. He said he kissed her on the forehead and either said, "Give Cassidy a hug for me or give
Cassidy a kiss for me." [snorts] Then he said he got the pillow and put it over her face.
Matt thought Carrie was dead, Vanessa says. So he was startled when Carrie suddenly gasped for air.
>> He said, "Oh," and then he said he put the pillow on her face, but then he said he did this
with his hand where her nose was. So he would be sure to suffocate her. >> I know what my child was screaming
inside of her head. [gasps and laughter] She was screaming out for her babies. I
know that. I know that. >> Even more devastating for Linda Doulan, her daughter didn't have to die. Vanessa
admits she knew Matt was plotting to kill Carrie. >> He talked [music] about maybe putting
something in a milkshake, making it look like she had hung herself, maybe doing a
driveby shooting, make it look like she overdosed on sleeping pills, [music] tampering with the brakes of her car.
Vanessa even knew the day Matt intended to murder his wife. April 7th, 2006. >> And you didn't report that to anybody?
>> No. >> Vanessa could [music] have saved your daughter. >> Yes, I know it. She knew what day your
daughter was going to die and she never told anybody. [music] >> I know. >> Two weeks later, a smiling Vanessa Bulls
was by Matt's side helping to chaperone Kenz's 10th birthday party. >> Has it not occurred to you that if he
killed one wife, he might kill another? >> I thought he would, but he promised me
that he would be so happy that he would never do that. >> She continued dating him [music] and
kept her mouth shut. Not only had I known about this and not done the right thing, in truth, who would believe me,
he was a preacher. And so, [snorts and music] I felt like I was stuck. >> And even after she broke up with Matt
months later, when police began looking into Carrie's death, [music] >> he started saying, "I killed my wife for
you and now you're leaving." >> Vanessa says she was afraid to talk. >> At that point, [music] I was worried
that he would come after me and put a bullet in my head to be blunt. If what she said was the truth, it was uh pretty
dramatic and pretty damning. >> But Matt Baker's lawyer, Guy James Gray, says Vanessa is a liar, pure and simple.
>> I don't believe much of what she said. >> And when it's his turn to cross-examine
Vanessa, >> Mr. Gray, >> Gray attacks her credibility. >> Was that statement true or not true?
>> It was absolutely false. I was untruthful. I was still keeping that part in. I'm pretty sure I denied that
completely. >> Isn't it possible that Vanessa Bulls is finally telling the truth?
>> Possible. Sure. Not very likely, though. >> Mr. Gray, call your first witness.
>> When the defense presents its case, Gray only calls one witness, a forensic expert who speculates that traces of DNA
found on the suicide note might be carries. Out of all of the people that you tested, which one had the highest
probability of a touch? >> Carrie Baker appears to have the highest number. >> Nothing for the jury.
>> Gray hopes this will create doubt in the minds of the jurors. >> If the primary source of DNA on that
piece of paper was Carrie Bakers, then she must have taken her own life. >> It's now in the hands of the jury. The
jury started deliberating this afternoon. >> I felt we had proven our case. >> Right now, we're waiting for the jury to
return a verdict. >> I was concerned how the jury would feel about Manasse. >> Seven women and five men now deciding if
the former preacher is guilty of killing his wife. >> As they deliberate into the night,
>> we have a note from the jury. >> The jurors have a series of questions for the judge. Is it possible for us to
see Matt Baker's complete deposition video? >> It made me very, [music] very nervous.
>> We received another note from the jury. >> We were concerned. >> Do we have to find guilt by use of drugs
and suffocating? >> It was frightening. >> Can we have a transcript of Vanessa Bull's testimony, please?
>> Gez. You know, it may be that they can't figure it out. As the hours went on, I became more
nervous. I went off by myself and just prayed a lot. Oh my gosh, what if what if they don't
convict him? What do you do? You're always nervous until they [music] come back in. There's no such thing as a
slam dunk. >> Especially in this case after prosecutors lost their chance to put
Matt Baker on the hot seat. >> It's the only case I've ever tried that I didn't put my client on the stand.
>> Defense attorney Guy James Gray couldn't risk it. He says, and for good reason.
>> They had a trap. You know >> the trap? This fireman's dummy at just about Car's weight when she died.
>> This is very close to what Matt faced trying to move Carrie. >> Yes, quite close.
>> The prosecution's plan to have Matt Baker demonstrate in front of the jury what he claims he did after he found his
wife dead and naked in their bed. >> 911. You have an emergency. >> When I'm on the phone with operator, I'm
putting her clothes on her and taking her off the bed. >> Phone to his shoulder. Her lips are
blue. Hands are cold. >> Dressing her without sounding out of breath. >> No, no, no. She's not breathing at all.
No pulse or anything. >> All right. Okay. Once he says that he has her dressed. >> Okay. Put her on the floor.
>> Correct. >> He has to move. >> How did you get her off the bed? >> I put my hands under her shoulders and
pulled her. >> He moved her. >> There's a reason that the term dead weight is used.
>> I'm going to need your help. [clears throat] >> And all this is happening in what period
of time? Oh, I measured it at a little less than 90 seconds. >> I don't know that Houdini could have
done that, and I didn't think he could either. >> Because Matt didn't testify, the jury
never got to see him do the demonstration. And as the hours tick by, [music] it seems like Gray made a wise call
keeping Matt off the stand. Generally, the longer the time [music] is better for the defendant.
>> More than 7 hours go by. [music] >> All right, bring in the jury. >> And finally, jurors reach a verdict.
>> We the jury find the defendant Matt D. Baker guilty of the offense of murder.
>> Guilty of firstdegree murder. I felt absolute relief that Matt Baker [music] would never again be in a
position to take a life or destroy lives. >> What did you tell your client? >> Since the day he walked in my office and
told me he was lying, I talked to him only for strict legal necessities and I had no other conversations. Incredibly,
the attorney who once so believed in his client stopped trusting Matt once he confessed to the affair.
>> You cannot be a good lawyer for somebody if you don't believe him. And that's a
position I was in. >> Prior to trial, Gray had asked to be taken off the case. >> I gave them my advice. They needed to go
get a different lawyer to handle it. I did not want to be there. >> But Matt insisted that Gray remain his
lawyer. The judge made me be there and they requested that I be there and I did my duty.
>> Guy, are you sorry you took on this case? >> Oh, yes. [snorts] I've never in my life
been forced to go to trial in a case that I didn't think I was on the right side.
The hardest thing I've ever done. >> Still, Gray says he defended Matt the best he could under the circumstances. I
still think I did a decent credible lawyer job, but I I had no heart in it. >> At sentencing, Linda Dulan gets the last
word. >> I'm talking to you, Matt, today. Okay. You haven't looked at me in almost four
years. Can you look at me today? You murdered the mother of your children. But the most tragic victims, Matt, are
Kinsey and Grace. Those sweet, sweet babies. >> Matt Baker's sentence 65 years with the possibility of parole.
Are you finally ready to admit that you killed your wife? >> No, because I didn't. I did not
suffocate. Did not shove pills down her throat. Did not do anything to hurt my wife.
>> You're saying that Vanessa Bulls lied about it all? >> Absolutely. Why would she lie about
this? >> She thought she was going to be with me and I walked away from the relationship
and she was upset and mad. >> How close did Matt Baker come to getting away with murder?
>> Incredibly close. >> If the Doulans hadn't pursued him, he certainly would have.
>> The Douland's ordeal was not over yet. Kenzie and Grace were still living with
Matt's parents. >> Any reaction, Matt? >> They've been taught to hate us. We were
portrayed as the people who caused their father to go to prison. >> A year and a half after Matt [music]
went to prison, Jim and Linda were back in court seeking custody of their granddaughters.
>> The odds were not in our favor. >> To their surprise, they won. >> This is Grace's room. This is her
hangout. Now they say their home is the girl's home. >> Grace is 12. She loves the arts and
she's in band and she plays the piano. Kinsey will be 17 next week. She is very excited about the prospect of college.
She's a hoot to be around. All we want now is for the girls to to be teenagers. And we never want them to feel like they
have to choose who to love. >> I live with three women and the other night [music] they were
all laughing and giggling and and just having a grand old time. That was a symphony.
I see Carrie. I see her every day in her daughters. She would be relishing what we're
experiencing. [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

A preacher's wife is found dead. Now, the other woman reveals his dark, murderous secrets. "48 Hours Mystery" correspondent Erin Moriarty reports in this two-part episode that aired on May 25, 2013. Watch more full episodes of "48 Hours" on Pluto TV.

True crime. Real justice. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Carrie Baker's death leads to Matt Baker's murder charge after evidence and testimony reveal dark secrets and suspicions of foul play.

Key points

Carrie's Love for Her Daughters. Carrie Dulan was a devoted mother who loved her girls dearly.
Uncovering Secrets. Linda Dulan and her sisters investigate Carrie's death, suspecting foul play.
The Affair Accusation. Phone records reveal Matt's communication with a young woman after Carrie's death.
Carrie's Autopsy Results. The autopsy reveals ambient in Carrie's muscle tissue, raising questions about her death.
Matt's Arrest. Matt Baker is arrested and charged with murder, igniting controversy and debate.
Charges Dropped. All criminal charges against Matt Baker are dropped, leaving many questions unanswered.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

She loved her girls. You know, you know how you feel. There are no words.

Linda Dulan speaks about Carrie's love for her daughters.

4:54WatchJul 2, 2026

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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