The Devil Did It /// Part 2 /// 127 | Forensic Files

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let's talk some true crime [Music] the murder of father Alfred Coons he was killed in his church back in
1998 there has been some argument uh recently Captain if this is a cold case or if it's a case that there's still
plenty of leads uh depending on which investigator or journalist you talk to you're going to get both sides of the
argument that it's either a cold case or there's there's plenty of fuel there uh
keeping this investigation going well yeah I'm not going to listen to the journalist I'm going to listen to the
detective and the detective said at least uh I think there last year within the last year he said it's not cold cuz
it's not sitting on some shelf somewhere there's still a unit that is assigned to
this investigation right and but but I did say depending on which investigator detective you speak with because there
have been some detectives along the way that said you know what I don't think that we're ever going to see this thing
uh solved I don't think we're ever going to see a conviction here and but you're
right as more recently the there seems to be some um detectives involved that believe that we could see this thing
work itself out uh they might be waiting for a little luck they might be waiting
for um the right clue or possibly you know a confession some times these confessions can happen as the years go
by all right so where we were at before was the theories and the the first Theory primarily was was this some kind
of satanic killing MH and uh again my theories on that um I I for me I think they would be they'd leave some
signature now his friend that was a priest uh what was his name fiori or Martin Martin Martin is the one that
brought up the fact that well there's possibly some satanic cult within the church and
I think if he was killed by one of them to shut him up for what he was saying on
his radio show I don't think there would be some kind of signature Mark left we don't know if there was or wasn't
because this again a lot of this investigation has been closed you know close to the chest mhm now what I would
argue and and I think we differ on some of this because you said earlier yeah rightfully so a lot of the stuff should
be kept close to the vest I think as you know we're talking about many years have
passed right you know I think investigators need to the more evidence that you release the more leads you will
get and I know some of those leads that you'll get are going to be kind of a waste of time but you're going to get
more leads so if there was some kind of signature we don't know and if there is they might might want to release that
right and you and I have both voiced publicly here uh that you know regarding the Amy mahalic the garage is not public
dude uh but regarding the Amy mahalic case uh here from Ohio when they released information that they did say
when they released the information they said look we're not certain if this is tied to the case or if or if it's not um
you know it could be but this this item these drapes were found in the area found near her body and but but they
released this information what 20 25 years later and it's like um okay yeah as you're saying with Father Coon's
murder this takes place in 1998 yes there there could be um there would be reason to release some of that
to to maybe have somebody point the finger at the right guy especially especially when they come out and say
you know we believe that this guy would would have had obvious signs of injury probably on his face after this murder
took place so we're talking about a town of 6 700 people if if in fact somebody from the town committed that crime well
um it's not too hard to tie those two things together well in law law enforcement's defense you know back in
1998 I don't think they had a lot of um uh what would be the word I don't think they had a lot of Hope or a lot of I
don't think they put a lot of weight into armchair detectives and I think you're seeing now like even with the
deli murders when they come out with that new suspect drawing uh you know we released that I I've been getting so
many uh you know we have the sketch that they released with the deli murders but
I've been getting pictures of suspects that look similar and then I get a whole background of this individual and I go
well how did you get this how did you get the background of this individual oh I did my research so I I think uh once
law enforcement starts put in a little more weight into armchair detectives and web Luthers you know I think some of
these things would wouldn't go c as cold so fast right and I have to agree with you Captain back to something you said
earlier regarding the satanic aspect of this murder um I'm with you I think if it was some teenage group of Satanist or
some random group of satanists that they might have made it clear at the crime scene there would have been been some
kind of visual display of such uh if it was some kind of weird satanic thing going on within the church I think
you're right they would be quiet about that it wouldn't be something that they would make so obvious for
investigators um so that's the first theory yes regarding the investigation itself I'm going to take you just real
quick this is Dane County Sheriff Hamlin um he is uh he he notes in this article
in his interview that he is a lifelong Catholic uh he does admit that the investigation has been tedious and
frustrating uh he said that they had Tracked Down thousands of tips from the public and they were checking and rre
rechecking what is now a room full of detailed police reports uh he says I don't know how many people we've spoke
to I do know that it's been quite a number of people it's been all the way from one Coast to the other end of the
country country as far as people that they've spoke with now in this same interview one by one he dismisses the
more uh fanciful possibilities uh in this case and he dismisses them outright uh the first being something we spoke
about yesterday the calf mutilation connection he States nope you know that was there any connection between Father
Coons in the death of this calf he says Nope there there's been lots of rumors around around town regarding that
incident but they didn't find anything they investigated it they didn't find anything well on the timeline of that
killing of the calf might not act actually be accurate either I mean that could have all just been rumor or
hearsay the other thing was The Exorcism referral um remember we said that it was
thought by some other priest that Coons was to be contacted or to be conducting an exorcism soon in the near future
before his uh death occurred um the thing here is they said the same thing we that they investigated that and
nothing came of it now he adding his own opinion though stating that um when when
people talk about an exorcism referral as far as this case is concerned he says that he he would actually think of
someone with a mental illness rather than somebody being possessed by a demon uh this is from his police background
and he says that he believes EV evidence in this investigation has pointed to that this would be a very emotional
murder which brings all sorts of possibility so what he's what I think if we're trying to read between the lines
here of what the sheriff Hamlin is saying a a a probably very emotional murder reading between the lines I feel
like that means that there's some ties there's some more direct ties from the as salent to the victim rather than just
some mentally ill person somebody that is demonically possessed or some Satanist you know or or or a random
Drifter you know because that was one Theory at the beginning yeah I don't know if I buy that again like we we do
have evidence that there was no breaking and entering mhm so was was it a Drifter
that the father was trying to help or was this somebody that he knew uh and he let this person in or did this
person have access so let's get into some more theories right and I think the thing there reading between the lines
though I think the sheriff is implying some kind of relationship between the murderer and the the victim there right
some knowledge of of who was his murderer and he was also directly asked about a church connection perhaps the
controversy going on in Springfield Illinois uh dicese and he says no there was no connection confirmed that
direction either you spoke about that a little bit yesterday yeah but I about some investigations that Coons was
rumored we we can't confirm he was rumored to have been involved in some kind of uh investigations into the
dicese and Springfield Illinois well and also all the dases in in all of Illinois
and so what did he say on the radio show what did the people working on the radio
show no that seems like very controversial Catholic radio show you're going against the church they
never like that MH so is there any you know again we have a priest friend that was on the show talking about these
inner um child pedophile um Rings within the Catholic church so there's your connection uh is it connected to the
murder we don't know but there is a connection there well staying on that note on the thought of another priest
and also the uh their radio show as well in the aftermath of Coon's death um you
know the aftermath got strange and then it got even stranger there would be stories of the exorcism referral that we
talked about the satanic assassin assassination eventually there's in inuendos of sexual impropriety by Coons
and we'll get to that in a little bit uh there would even be allegations that his
murder could somehow be linked to evil in the most Unthinkable of places is the vast Catholic hierarchy that Coons was
tied to as a priest some even blame the Vatican in Rome so could someone within the church really have killed Coons or
ordered him to be killed right like a hit well remember we spoke about Peter Kelly he is the attorney that was the
producer of the radio show that had worked with coons uh for quite some time in Monroe um Wisconsin
now Peter Kelly when asked that question could somebody in the church really have
killed Coons or ordered him to be killed his response was absolutely as unbelievable as that might sound to some
people um he says absolutely and he also adds that there were an awful a lot of people in the church for whom life would
have been a lot easier if father Coons was not around right so again I think he was
doing some investiga for work this is like I said a couple years before the whole Spotlight thing in in Boston mhm
if you haven't seen that um movie I think it it's it's very um educational on on the inner workings of
systems and how they protect themselves mhm um and I think he probably knew some
stuff and again uh the you know like I said there would be a signature now if you're just trying to
shut somebody up you only need one signature a slit throat right and that's normally indication of that this person
was talking right correct I mean that's I'm not saying that other people aren't murdered for other things or people
aren't murdered like that but to me it's like um this this person kind of knew what they're doing their they they cut
an artery you know which doesn't happen in every um slit you know not every time
this somebody slit somebody's throat do they hit an artery so it feels like you know maybe that this person kind of had
some understanding of what they were doing well and one story that has kind of weaved itself into the story of the
murder of Alfred Coons of Father Alfred Coons is this one this is a strange story but this is a man claiming to be
Coon's friend uh this is Abbott Ryan Saint and Scott um now this person felt that Coon's murder was related to Coon's
investigation of sexual abuse scandals inside the Das es uh and this referring to the Springfield Illinois dicese uh
stating that Coons had allegedly been investigating reports of homosexuality and sexual abuse by priest within that
dicese now how did these two find each other well um Reverend Ryan an Scott claims um that and he's currently going
by a different name um Ryan an OSB um those are okay yeah I I think that stands for some kind of title there
Captain but this is a this is a so yeah I'm more familiar with that one um so Scott is what has been labeled by the
Catholic Church as an independent Catholic priest I guess that's what I am I guess that that means he's not in
communion with Rome right that's what I am I'm father Captain so the other thing
the the debatable topic about this guy though is that it's uh whether he was validly ordained or not is the big
debate and that's the argument that the Catholic church is saying well why why would they want to say that he's not
ordained because they want to discredit this man who claims to be a victim of sexual abuse by members of the Catholic
clergy in an incident that occurred in the arch dicese of Milwaukee um he States this was after um after Coon's
death but this man states that in 199 98 uh his Confessor and spiritual director
was Reverend father Alfred Coons from Dane Wisconsin uh of course the brutally murdered in his church and he but he's
stating you know that he was working with this guy he he had worked with coons regarding his personal story and
regarding these allegations that he's brought forward about Springfield Illinois now his own personal um his own
personal track tragedy that took place or the crimes against him would have taken place early in the fall of 1976 so
when when this guy was a much younger man um he he was brutally gang raped in the St John's Cathedral in Milwaukee Wis
Wisconsin according to him he states that he was led there under false pretenses by a fellow priest and was set
up for humiliation and bodily harm right um according to Scott father [ __ ] was
was determined um to to to validate that this guy was actually ordained that he was an actual real ordained priest um
right because it's this like I said before it's the system covering up the system mhm you know so they're going
okay we're going to discredit this guy by saying he he's not ordained so okay again what does that have to do with
anything can you answer me that well I I mean I mean just in a grand scale thing
because there if you if you read the full length of his allegations against these other priests he would have had to
have been a priest for this to for the crime to have gone down the way he said it went down so if so do you see what
I'm saying there right so so the church is saying if he wasn't ordained then therefore the story is bogus right it's
like it's like if I said you know I was once a member of the Oakland Raiders oh sorry my my phone is going off shut off
your phone in the garage I think that's the first time we've had a phone no I I got I got guilty of that once so I think
we're even Steven now but what I'm what I'm getting at is the way that the story
goes down is that it'd be the same as if I said I was a member of the Oakland Raiders and during halftime inside the
locker room the one of the players uh punched me out okay that's not the same thing no it'd be like you saying you're
a part of the Oakland Raiders you're the punter and then when you got in the locker room you're being raped by the
offensive line I don't think that would be the same no what I'm saying is that it it is the exact same because as soon
as I go and I report the crime and then the Oakland Raiders go um different crime though he's never been well duh
but when they say he's never been a member of this football team then immediately my allegations my whole
story falls apart immediately you know not necessarily is what I'm saying but how
if I'm stating that the that the assault took place at halftime while I was employed by the Oakland Raiders and I
was there in the locker room because I was a player on that team and I was assaulted and then they go well that's
impossible he's never been a member of this football team he would have never been in the locker room we don't know
what he's talking about my argument is that it would be yes lie lie but if you can prove one of those things you know
it'd be like again oh well I'm uh you know I work for the garage blah blah blah I got beat up oh well you actually
don't work for this garage but I have proof that I was beat up well just because you know I wasn't truthful about
about one thing doesn't mean that just because I was just because I lied about one thing doesn't mean the next thing is
automatically a lie is what I'm saying possibly but what I'm saying is if you read the full length of this um of these
accusations he would have had to have been a priest he would have had to been working in that capacity for right this
for this to be truthful at all right but then the argument too is that father Coons was trying to prove right he was
trying to validate this guy being as an ordained priest again another motive for
the system to cover up the system um this St an person himself he is a controversial character um and
that's not just by the um opinion of the church um in 19 he has a felony conviction uh from
1994 for misconduct in public office um apparently he had a check from the city for $30 and he magically made it turn
into a check for $300 uh and he got caught for this the old add a zero trick um add that to the list of things
not to do that we were going over yesterday Captain um but this this person and I again similar situ ation to
you know Malaki Martin that we discussed yesterday when it comes to this guy he has these allegations they are
interesting are they true I don't know there's I don't know if that there's enough evidence or enough proof to back
up some of his statements now it has been uh reported that we talked about roughly you know kind of touched on that
Springfield Illinois connection um but the the bishop eventually did resign from um office there so I don't know if
that you can make your own opinion on that if it that means if there is any sign of guilt or not well and that's one
of the one of the major things that the spotlight team uncovered in Boston was whether it was people resigning or them
moving around priest to cover their tracks so cover their tracks I mean basically just hide criminals um Captain
we got to talk about this thing though here uh because about two years after the murder of father Coons there's an
article that came out this is from the um Madison uh Associated Press um stating the the title is slain priest
had relationships with women uh oh yes he did and I'll give you the gist of it rather than read through the whole thing
read it slow like one of those Penthouse forums um so basically what they're stating here is that the in
investigators believe that uh father Coons had carried on intimate relationships with women uh
involved uh is there any other kind for about 20 years continuing just prior to his death now investigators came out
with this information because they were asking the public for leads now that they had this new possible motive right
so the motive would be he was having a sexual relationship with a AER married woman and then the husband found out and
then decided to kill father Coons yeah became in a jealous rage stormed into the church and which is definitely a
crime of passion so I could see you know this being a possible motive mhm this this seems likely you know um would seem
more likely if he wasn't as old as he was correct and and that's one thing that a lot of the parishioners were
pointing out um that they were stating you know they felt I think the church um and I mean his specific church people
that had relationships as as far as a priest and perisher relationship with Father Coons they got very upset about
this um coming out and they and they actually got very upset with their own sheriff and their own Sheriff's
Department because they almost felt like these allegations were not warranted uh and that they were really
just kind of dragging the good father's name through the mud after death well the statistics are like only
47% of priests are are celebrate anyways so I mean that's pretty you know for people that take a oath you know right
an oath of Chastity that you're stating that the the numbers are on the side of the investigator's allegations yeah but
uh but I mean it's it's a dumb rule anyways I mean that that wasn't put into place by the church for for a very long
time and it was only put into place it had nothing to do with being more holy or anything like that it was more just
so the priests in the community had a lot of power and so if they had kids then they could transfer that power over
so now you're becoming more of a kingdom than you are a church so the Catholic Church put that into law and therefore
they couldn't pass down the their power to their family MH well this would lead the investigators to um investigating
and interviewing um a lot of the female parishioners um and we have I have an account of how some of the questioning
went down uh for one woman but we will get right to that after this quick beer [Music]
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Angie [Music] that all right we are back cheers mates cheers my friend um we were talking about some of
the parishioners getting questioned female parishioners uh regarding if father Coons had intimate relationships
with them well one woman this is Mora Smith she was a St Michael parishioner who was identified as one of the women
that police thought Coons might have been having an intimate relationship with now Smith describes the police um
attention as Relentless uh intimidating and unbearable her uh butcher knives were confiscated from her
yeah they well they searched her home uh confiscated butcher knives a a baseball
bat tools snapshots of coons and other personal items of hers uh there was Interview upon tough interview she says
um again now if they're pulling stuff like the baseball bat and stuff now can we assume that maybe he was hit with
some object maybe he was attacked by more than one weapon right and again wouldn't that be something that you
I don't know I think I have a real issue with them keeping too much information close to the vest uh they the
authorities also took blood and hair samples um they would say that uh Mara you know they would ask Mara questions
Mora I'm sorry did did he touch you did he grab you uh she's like just above the
belly button well they said they told her that they were asking these same questions
and doing similar searches with all of the women of the the parish well yeah you expect them to be asking these
questions of these women if if this is a possible motive mhm well the thing here
is Smith says of her experience you know regarding father Coons was that their relationship was was innocent she says
father Coons was a gentleman she says regarding her what she would call um intimidating questioning that she
received from the police as well as them searching her home she states that she has suffered more than her fair share of
what what was entailed in this investigation um she eventually moved out of the area she moved to Milwaukee
um Milwaukee because she was upset about the ordeal citing police harassment um and accusing the Sheriff's Office of
dragging CO's name through the mud so that's one ladies that's one of the ladies of the parish her experience as
far as the allegations about father Coon's with women of the church and if there
were potentially a jealous husband or boyfriend involved in the murder right so basically what you know they come up
with this Theory and they this is TR me drives me insane let's come up with the theory and uh then we try to prove it
how about you try to prove it before you start you know again we'll hold all this
stuff to the vest really closely but uh you know we're going to start spreading rumors that this this father was having
affairs with uh with ladies from his church well and a lot of times investigators or police will use the
word intimate to to mean just a close relationship to describe a close relationship well I think that's um
irresponsible well one thing that they did in this investigation and when they would speak publicly about this
investigation was at some point they dropped that word as you know saying intimate relationship with the priest uh
because at some point they started saying you know their belief is that this person had an intimate relationship
with the priest and had a good working knowledge of the church itself or the building uh that he was found murdered
in right now the thing here is uh like I said they dropped that that intimate title and just changed it to a
relationship or close relationship with the father at some point because they you know they're getting backlash from
the uh from the from the parish well of course again investigate it then present
the theory don't present the Theory then investigate it I again I just think that's irresponsible so that that theory
is kind of squashed and what else we have I know we had some profiles that they had yes so the police I do think
that the investigators here did a a pretty thorough job on this investigation seems like they've worked
very hard and tried everything they could now one thing they did work with FBI profilers um the forensic behavior
science experts uh who discern probable beh Behavior at crime scenes based on physical evidence and consultation with
investigators uh police consider these profiles to just be guiding tools we all know that um here are the conclusions of
the FBI profiles regarding the father Coon's case uh this is their thoughts one the offender showed obvious rage
publicly and like and the likely motive was related to jealousy Revenge betrayal
or something else very personal so a personal uh Vendetta against the the priest uh they also state that number
two the the weapon might have a connection to the Killer's employment or Hobby and the weapon is one that the
killer feels comfortable using three the impetus of the murder could have been an incident that
occurred between the Killer and father Coons within 72 hours of the crime this could have been the result of a long or
shortterm conflict and possibly of a that other people would consider insignificant right I just laugh because
well it could have been a short term or could have been long term these profiles
can be vague at times um the killer would have tried to ensue ensure an alibi to account for his absence during
the time of the homicide the excuse might be weak but the killer will not waver from it okay the next one is the
day after the murder the offender might have missed work claiming illness or injury we've heard about this in in many
other cases that we've covered uh if the killer did go to work it would have been
difficult for him to concentrate while worrying how the police might be able to find a link between him and the murder
mhm the Killer's preoccupation with the crime may have caused noticeable behavioral changes such as with
withdrawing from friends and family changes in eating and sleeping habits and or increased you use of drugs and
alcohol mhm I mean we see this a lot at times to somebody you know commits a crime and then really follow follows it
as as almost a Obsession MH and they sometimes can be cut that way as as a result yeah and regarding the drugs and
alcohol you know sometimes they they believe that's a way of the person dealing with the guilt or dealing with
the stress of being worried that they're going to get tied to the crime um they also state
that it is possible that the Killer is vocal in proposing theories about the crime that draw away attention such as
an interpreted burglary uh or sorry interrupted burglary or a transient Theory or a conspiracy theory regarding
the death of coons which a lot of people didn't present weird theories maybe father
Martin did but um so other than that well I think I think there were a few people working
with in some capacity with the church that were voicing some what we would say quote unquote weird theories um but yeah
not many theories seem to be coming from the general public um their other thought would be that people close to
the killer may be a be aware of a past dispute with the father um they might suspect the Killer's involvement in the
crime but they also might sympathize with the Killer situation that seems like a strange one to throw in there I
wish I would have xed that one out of their profile cuz that one just sounds weird um next the Killer is a white male
here's where we get to some more specifics it's always a white male the white guy did it um the Killer is a
white male probably in his late 20s or older they estimate the age uh because of the killer um lack of panic after the
murder that this must be somebody that's a little older that's a little little uh
more patient that this wasn't a teenager or a very young man um the murderer was
known to Father Coons um but also had a physical size that posed no threat to the to the father to the father Coons
right so not a large man well this makes you wonder because they're they they're
Gathering some of this evidence as physical evidence and with cons Consulting with the active investigators
on this crime when say that he has no physical size that posed a threat to Father
Coons that makes you believe that he that father Coons very likely opened the door and let this person into the
building or and I think we've seen evidence of that yeah um Coon's murder was probably uh employed full-time as
nothing of value was taken from the scene remember we said early in the investigation they would not rule out
robbery it sounds like it has been ruled out which I think you know the The Drifter mhm you know doesn't make a
lot of sense to me The Drifter probably would have taken something would have would have robbed the place in some form
yeah but again it's a big church too so I mean it could be something again and we also don't have father Coons is not
writing down an inventory of everything that's true so there could be there could be some uh let's you know like
some of those like wine cups that they have you know or maybe they're just goldplated but you'd think maybe one of
those would be gone but again how many did they have there could have been something taken and they just didn't
know it mhm I agree with that um so I went from Drifter Theory doesn't make any sense though still still involved
it's still on the plate well way to scratch it off the paper oh wait uh they also state that the killer
had at least a high school education I love how they figure these things out a full-time employed uh at least a high
school education and no extensive criminal record the Killer's intelligence is aver
but he is he is without the street smarts of a sophisticated criminal so almost stating you know we see no
extensive criminal record and without the sophisticated uh Street smarts of a sophisticated criminal so this might be
this F person's first um Rodeo so to speak um and at the very maybe even more hadn't committed any crimes at all um
the next one um is the killer did not expect the amount of blood gushing from the fatal wound um complicating the
weapon his clothing and this this would complicate the disposal of his clothing in the weapon this creating a problem
for the killer also unexpected was how Fierce Coons struggled no matter how brief the altercation was the killer was
punched several times and may have been scratched or cut by the murder weapon itself these injuries would have been
visible to those close to the murderer mhm well I like those FBI profiles captain and and I like when they release
them for um I could read those all day long and you're right though there's there are I don't want to listen to them
all day there are things in there that you can Snicker at that you can laugh at a little bit there there are some vague
vagueness to them um but I think that um that would lead us to our next topic which would be
you know we discussed theories but let's talk about some more uh let's talk about
suspects and let's talk about them as specific suspects um so several sources um confirmed at one time in this
investigation that the investigation was targeting the teacher who had found Coon's body right um after this was this
is different though because this is after the this teacher moved in with Coon's friend who did he move in with he
moved in with Reverend fiori uh now remember we talked about this guy he's longtime friends with Father Coons and
this quote unquote suspect moves in with fiori lives with them for about 6 months
this is almost immediately after the murder um the teacher eventually moved out of the state um and was recently
engaged to be married um I'm guessing I don't have anything to back this up but I'm guessing that possibly that
relationship with the woman may have taken him out of the state um after finding the body though this teacher
called 911 on the morning of March 4th 1998 the teacher did pass this is according to police uh P police
questioning um and what they did was pass police questioning they I was waiting for you to say a polygraph but
no this is according to the police um now one thing that they did at the time um they took this person's clothing
because remember after finding the body this teacher's clothing was covered in blood so they took his clothing and they
left they basically left the teacher wrapped up in a blanket um what had happened was when the when father Coons
was found murdered at the church you know there was supposed to be school that day there was going to be other
teachers there was going to be students there this was going to be a regular day
and in D County right um but what ended up happening was they discover the murder
and so they sent all of the parishioners all the school children all the people arriving to the school that morning they
sent them across the street to the Village Hall um now there this teacher this teacher that is more shocked than
the rest of the parishioners because he in fact found the body he's had his bloody bloody clothing confiscated from
him taken from him he's now wrapped in a towel sitting amongst all of these other
people who were in shock that their their priest was killed well a couple things with this I mean the murder
weapon would have to be close mhm and they should be able to do DNA testing to see if this teacher had any blood uh
like a mixture of blood between his and fathers MH but you know I'm assuming they did that that testing well the
police they the the thing the problem they had with him as a suspect was they in might just be their intuition that's
that's taking him away this might just be their own you know experiences as a police officer or detective but they're
stating that they would find it highly highly improbable that this guy would have killed the priest sometime at night
so this would probably have taken place at 11:30 12:30 that night and then been the first one to return to the crime
scene to find the victim um the thing Captain though they or that he would stay in the church that whole time
correct and so we also have uh the teacher was again interviewed by investigators at least once that I could
find this would have been in late March uh with a lawyer present so question the
day of the finding and then question again at a later date in March now sometimes when you're questioning
somebody it's not because it's not to insinuate any guilt maybe they're not guilty of anything you're just going
over what they saw anything they recollect uh that had taken place maybe there was something that you missed uh
the first time um fiori and others uh involved that knew this man and knew father Coons very well um have told said
publically that they cannot imagine any connection um from this teacher to the actual murder um and then everybody kind
of coming to the defense of this teacher stating that the teacher was not did not
appear to have been in injured in any way on March 4th um and remember we said according to the FBI profile as well as
the investigators that Coons put up a pretty good fight uh even if it was a short fight uh before his throat was
slashed yeah the problem with that though problem with that evidence is again we don't know what what they're
talking about so like I said before maybe there's bruises on his knuckles and stuff like that and there's multiple
ways I mean maybe you get a bruise from your knuckle because you did punch somebody M or maybe you get bruise from
your knuckle because in this struggle your hand smacks against the wall so I think sometimes that you know there is
just quote unquote scientific evidence of maybe that this guy put up a fight and that somebody should be injured but
that does you know we got to air that there's always that slim possibility that what you're seeing what you think
you're seeing scientifically is not what you're seeing right right um you know so
didn't see didn't have any injuries that were visible to the public on that day that the body was found um and also
stating that the teacher did not show any visible signs of anger toward father Coons at any time uh before or after the
murder and this to me seems like kind of a weak suspect uh obviously you'd want to question this individual because he
found the father that he actually worked with the father but this seems like a weak suspect to me but there was a
stronger suspect yes there was a stronger suspect and just before we get to this this other suspect staying on
your same thought there uh investigating the person that found him also investigating the person that last was
known to see father [ __ ] so we did have father fiori uh who did endure a heavy
police scrutiny at one time um and one article that I found and I couldn't confirm this with with other articles
but it state that he had been cleared in the as having any involvement in the murder of the priest now so here here's
the next guy and and this guy might be a little bit better of a suspect than both
of the last two people we discussed so this comes from a gentleman by the name of Matt Abbott uh he's somebody that's
covered this case extensively uh he's a writer a journalist that has covered this case extensively over the years uh
and one article that he wrote uh was titled did a hanged rapist kill a Wisconsin priest uh and in the article
he says that he had received an email from a person named John Kavanaugh now this John Kavanagh is a retired danne
County deputy and John was stating that he knew the person well he knew of a person with a violent a very violent
background who was in the area on the day of Father Coon's murder uh this person uh that he's going to say
allegedly killed father Coons uh is now deceased yeah he's going to implicate him in well where did John Kavanagh get
his information he says that the suspect his father had told John that the suspect had contact with Father Coons
and that he had asked father Coons for money he was refused and in this person's words he said he had to rough
him up so he had to rough up the priest after he's denied money now this perpetrator this suspect is John
Kavanaugh's nephew so it would be John's brother the father of this suspect that
gave him this information now who is his nephew his nephew had a History of Violence toward women uh he was
incarcerated pending trial on charges of assault and kidnapping and he committed
suicide while he was waiting for that trial he had previously served time in state prison for assaulting another
woman well right okay so think about this too I mean think about how many cases that we've had I think uh Aurora
shooting Aurora theater shooting yeah um Sandy Hook I think um couple other ones
where where the parents hear about a crime and they get a gut feeling mhm that it was their their son or their
daughter or whoever right right and so we have this case where this thing happens in a small town but uh yeah
maybe the father you know gets more information but he had a gut feeling from the beginning well the strange
thing about this person saying that he had to you know he was refused money and then he had to rough up the priest well
he used this same phrase uh when he described a crime he had committed like eight or 10 years before the murder of
father Coons he had went to his own grandfather for money and asked him for money and was refused and he told he
told his father about this and said I had to rough up Grand my grandfather CU he refuse me money he roughed the
grandfather up so badly that the guy had to go to the hospital and he spent the rest of his days in a wheelchair so it
was it was damn near murder you know what I mean uh to use the words had to rough him up so this man John Kavanagh
though is saying that he had once he had this information from his brother about
his nephew's confession quote unquote confession um he notified the Sheriff's Office uh he said that they did do a
little bit of followup on this uh they contacted the father they spoke with him um but they did get back in contact with
this John Kavanaugh and they told him you know what what your nephew told to your brother uh cannot be construed as a
confession um that it's this is not considered a confession on top of this though we're looking at a suspect that's
already dead maybe that has something to do with how much effort that they're going to put into this thing um he's
tried to get them time and time again to to consider this as as a strong theory in this case he says but for what it's
worth He is a retired Dane County Deputy um so he he would have worked with some
of these investigators and he said that there are personality clashes uh with many who are in power at the sheriff's
office today which could very well be one reason for their perceived failure to act upon his claims he says that
they're in no hurry to admit that perhaps they should have followed up on this information years ago now John
Kavanaugh's nephew is Joseph Kavanagh and as we said he did have a history of violence and possibly mental illness
yeah so a couple weird things here cuz one you'd think that this Police Department would and we've seen this
time and time again with other police departments where even if this is not the right guy this guy is dead so
therefore he can't defend himself I mean we're not going to bring charges with there's not going to be charges to
anybody in this uh case but this case will at least be closed and this is the most you know you dare say popular case
most covered case in their small little County so you'd think we just got to get
this closed um so I I kind of you know want to say hey I applaud them for not just you know going here's the guy he
did it we're never going to charge him so let's move on right um but it seems like they didn't do their due diligence
on this and I the reason why I think that the suspect being dead is is a hindrance for them is something that
they don't wish to pursue I wonder if the investigators know that a confession is really the ultimate Way of solving
you know that this is might be the only way left of solving this crime or this case well because so much time has
passed and there might not be if the if the attacker didn't cut himself and there there might not be any DNA
evidence they did test it was about four or five years into the investigation they said that they had a small amount
of DNA that they wanted to test and they were going to test in this investigation
however they tested it and when they come back and they don't really want to talk about the results or their you know
and they just say Well it kind of went nowhere well that means that it means that it's either not DNA
that they thought that they had it means it's pooo right right it's it's not going to lead to anybody's arrest now
well I would just on this Theory my gut feeling is look I mean no parent that's the you know one
of the worst you know other than your child pass away the the second worst thing would be
right your child committing some some heinous crime like this so the fact that the father is coming forward and saying
look I I believe my son was responsible for this murder that holds a lot of weight with me and thank you for saying
that because that reminded me the the the vibe I got what I read was that the the father not only did the the uncle
suspect this guy but the father backed it up as well as the um the man's mother firmly believed that he was involved in
the the murder of father Coons um now more about this Matt Abbott who has covered this case extensively and this
is a more recent article that he has written regarding the death of Father Coons um he says and it's it's a very
long article and the juicy stuff is at the end so I'll read uh I'll read the end of that article and it says now for
that interesting bit ofation pertaining to the murder investigation he states that once again he was contacted by
somebody this is a private investigator had informed him that the prime suspect was a man who was known to Father Coons
uh apparently this man was having more than a platonic relationship with another man who was also known to Father
Coons the second man reportedly had some sexually suggestive photos of the suspect in his bedroom according to to
the investigator the simplest explanation is usually the best one the investigator told Matt Abbott and
stating that maybe father Coons caught the two together or saw a photo that was compromising maybe the man had confessed
to Father Coons about their homosexual relationship uh probably no one will ever know which one of those is is is
true but he says you know all of the circumstances you know even with the possible motive pointing primarily at
the suspect um unfortunately this primarily does not translate to anything beyond Reasonable Doubt um basically he
he's stating that this this guy went out and killed father Coons because he was aware of this relationship that he was
having with another man and this private investigator does he believes that the police did their job that they did their
due diligence he thinks what has really really put this investigation on its side was that the the man he was having
a relationship with was not very forthcoming with information and may have even lied to the police early on in
this investigation all right so that's none of what you just said is that clear so
the guy that murdered father Coons was actually having a affair with another man I don't know if he was having an
affair but he was having according to this article in this investig having a relationship he was having a homosexual
relationship so since father Coons knew about this homosexual relationship he had to murder him that doesn't seem like
that that's according to this investigator and the article written by Matt Abbott right yeah I don't like this
theory that much at all now police did state that there was an anonymous letter that was sent to the police um years ago
in this in investigation that did name a suspect for them uh later police were able to identify who this Anonymous
person is now they've not outwardly said who the anonymous person was they've also not stated who the uh was
implicated in the letter that was sent to them all right so where did this investigation lead them well the thing
here is I wonder if that's where this in this private investigator came up with this whole theory about the two men
having a relationship that one of them would have moved out of town one of them remained in town and maybe the the the
one that remained in town knew what was going on lied to the police early in the
investigation felt bad felt guilty knows who killed the father killed the priest
and sent this Anonymous letter that's my that's a suspicion that's a bit of a leap I understand that Captain it's a
little bit of a leap um but by 2009 investigators with the danne county sheriff's department um were willing to
state that they did have a longtime suspect they would not name who this uh suspect was and said that U has never
been named um they've not arrested this person because they have lack of sufficient sufficient evidence to do so
um Steve Gilmore he was the lieutenant of detectives with the Department said that the suspect left town soon after
father Coon's murder um he said that they know where this person is they know that that they know what he's up to
apparently they're they're watching him um or have watched kept an eye on him they state that if indeed he had
committed this murder then he stayed pretty clean you know he's not gone out there wherever he's located and
committed other crimes and they also state that they certainly don't think that there's any threat to the public
out there uh yeah I laughed about that as well oh my god wow hey dummies wake up killed a
priest right right this suspect that you believe is a suspect if he's actually somewhat of a suspect he killed a priest
because he was having having a relationship with another man well that's if those two are actually tied
together that was me me making that leap but I know what you're getting at here Captain if somebody's capable of killing
a priest once I think they slit in their throat I think they always remain a threat to the public
but as much as as much as we want to get upset about that statement that Gilmore
made to the the newspaper the thing here is though it doesn't matter because what
can they do if they don't have evidence they can't arrest the guy and and ensure
the public that he's not going to harm anybody else they're kind of left with their hands tied so what Gilmore
basically is stating that as of you know this was in 2009 article however he States in this article that as of 2008
that suspect was alive um he was under surveillance by somebody yeah I'm sure he is and he was no longer living in the
Dayne County uh jurisdiction all right well that's um you know it does leave a little sour taste in your mouth I'm
drinking beer there's not there's no there's no sour taste in this there I got a little taste of honey didn't he
hear the man talk about this delicious beer so does any of that lead you to to any direction in this case where where
you feel that you have a better idea or better sense of who committed this crime
no cuz originally looking into this my gut feeling and and probably because I just watched Spotlight my my my original
gut feeling was you know father Martin talking about uh possibly some kind of innerworkings of the church and trying
to cover you know system covering up system that's kind of where my gut feeling was going but like you said you
read into this when you have um a child that you believe uh had the capability of doing this roughed up his grandfather
had all these vicious attacks uh kidnappings on women um uses the same verbiage when he talks about roughing he
had to rough up the father right uh father Coons that is and and so now you got an uncle a father and a mother all
stating that this person they believe should be the number one suspect there might not be evidence to prove that
right so that you know kind of ties law enforcement's hands so but you know then they toss in
this other person and I don't want okay there remarks on he you know he's not a threat to society well that that is just
[ __ ] you know uh and um they should be reprehended somehow for just that dumbass
comment but but how would you rep Pro I thought about this quite a bit just spank them in front of people just spank
them I don't think they can do that well it depends on that but here but the the
thing is is then but again if there's not enough evidence to link you know the the one suspect what was his name again
that was the Joseph Joseph Kavanaugh the GU that committed suicide yeah if there's not enough evidence to link him
or maybe they did look into that and they just don't think he's the guy because they have enough information on
this other suspect uh that that's the only thing there that make you know kind of makes me question again mom father
Uncle verbage his attacks before the suicide all those things that you know that's your number one suspect but I
don't want to discredit law enforcement if they go we got this other guy and we'd like to get him right yeah I I'm
with you Captain I think I the one thing I think I rule out here is the Satanist
um aspect never rule that out I think that I think that one seems less likely the more you get into this situation and
you see that it is very likely that um that father Coons had some type of personal relationship with the person
that committed this crime whether it be just somebody that attended his church I
think it was a familiar face that knocked on the door that night and he opened up the door to the to his killer
um and I think that's how the yeah but you can't roll out you know somebody part of the clergy so
um is all I'm saying um but I again I think it's somebody somebody that the father recognized that night and I think
he let them into the building now there was a priest that recently wrote um the killer of Father Coons still walks Among
Us uh no one can be certain if this VI vicious killer has or will strike again until the murderer of Father Coons is
arrested and convicted an individual possessed by evil walks Among Us assured that at at least once he has
successfully murdered a man of God and gone unpunished until this crime is solved those who hate God and his people
know that it is possible to kill and get away with murder um anybody having any information regarding the murder of
father Coons uh should call the danne county sheriff's office at 60828 4 6871 and I really hope they do get more
information and and have the closure of this case cuz one of the things that I applaud um Alfred father Alfred [ __ ] for
doing was to look at his own MH and to see that there was a problem within um the inner workings of of the church
right and something that he fully believed in I mean he committed his life to the church he committed his life to a
community so whether or not you're religious or not um anybody that I think commits themselves to a community and
lifting up people and doing good instead of harm I applaud those people but I also applaud the fact that he saw that
there are um evil demons within the church praying on kids and that he was doing some research and at least um
diving into it and not in a blind eye as so many have so I applaud I applaud him
for that yep uh recommended reading for this week Captain we are recommending the operator firing the shots that
killed Osama Bin Laden in my years as a Seal Team Warrior your Seal Team No that's somebody else's words this is by
one of the many many Heroes that have served this fine country this is Robert O'Neal Robert was on the Seal Team Six
obviously he also served in Iraq and Afghanistan this guy uh he served in our military's tier one
units he did 400 missions in his military career he was involved in the rescue attempt of the Lone Survivor also
uh the rescue of Captain Phillips and of course the bin Laden thing that's a brother of mine and in his book the
operator he reveals firsthand details of the most celebrated terrorist Tak down in history so please check out the
operator by Robert O'Neal and you can do that by going our website true Crim garage.com and click on the recommended
page thank you guys for listening thanks for telling a friend thanks for spreading the word We Appreciate You yep
we will see you back here in the garage next week and until then be good be kind
and don't [Music] litter [Applause] you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional on Angie to
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The Devil Did It /// Part 2 /// 127

Part 2 of 2

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On March 4, 1998 Father Alfred Kunz was found dead in Saint Michael's Catholic Church, in Dane Wisconsin. Father Kunz was the victim of a homicide. He was found in a pool of his own blood. His throat had been cut. The body was discovered by a teacher arriving at the school. All of the doors were locked and there was no sign of forced entry. There have been many suspects and theories over the years. One of the most popular theories is Kunz was killed by satanists. Today we discuss this cold case and take a look at the theories and some suspects.

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Brief Summary

Father Alfred Coons was murdered in 1998; theories and suspects discussed include church hierarchy and a violent individual with a motive.

Key points

The Murder of Father Alfred Coons. Exploring the mysterious murder of Father Coons in 1998 and the ongoing investigation.
Satanic Killing Theories. Discussion on whether Father Coons' murder was linked to satanic rituals.
Church Involvement Speculations. Could someone within the church have ordered Father Coons' murder?
Father Coons' Allegations. Investigators reveal allegations against Father Coons, suggesting he had intimate relationships with women.
Police Harassment Claims. Mora Smith describes her experience with police questioning as relentless and intimidating.
FBI Profiles Insights. FBI profiles suggest the killer had a personal vendetta against Father Coons.

Episode highlights

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2:12WatchNov 16, 2023

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