The Big Lie | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

This episode contains language that may not be suitable for everyone. Well, let's just jump right in and let's
just start with you introducing yourself. >> Oh god. [laughter] >> And it's not a trick question. It's like
a very simple just what's your name? >> That's you just started off with the hardest question.
>> This is Gavin Bane, but for years he went by another name. It all started in 1998 on his first day of college in
Dundy, Scotland, when he met another student named Billy Boyd. >> I was uh running late. I was
skateboarding in and I saw this guy standing outside the campus just nonchalantly. I mean, I'm rushing. This
probably sums up both of our personalities. [music] I'm rushing. I'm thinking, "God, you've messed us up
already." you know, and he's just standing there. He's got like a bag of jeans on, hair cornolled,
a Hansen t-shirt. [music] I don't know why he's wearing [laughter] that, but he's listening. He's just got his
headphones on and I kind of I I kind of skid past him and stop. And I'm like, "Hey, have I [snorts] got the time
wrong? Why aren't you inside?" And he's got Nirvana. I can hear that that's blasting. He's got it so loud. And he
looks at me and he's like, "What do you want?" He's so [laughter] offended that I've interrupted Nirvana and then I kind
of rush off in and I'm like, "Oh man, first person I meet looks really cool." And I just like made an enemy out of the
first person. But then I get lost. I go into the wrong class. >> After a while, he managed to find the
right classroom. He was 45 minutes late, and the only seat left was next to the guy he'd met out front. And when we were
in close range, he was looking at my bag and I was looking at his bag and I had Rage Against the Machine, Cypress Hill,
Wuang Clan badges on my backpack. And he had the same, but he had corn and he had
uh some other like metal bands mixed in with um Tribe Called Quest. So it was like together we covered the entire
gamut of the coolest bands in the world at the time. And he had Limp Biscuit. So
uh so yeah, we just kind of cracked it off. We started to talk in quotes from uh kind of rap films
from the early '90s. Yeah, we were just it was just straight in with a flow. And
by lunchtime, we were freestyling uh quietly at first and then by the end of lunchtime we had performed our first gig
in a way. Everyone was kind of gathered around us and we were we were rappers. And uh on the way home um I turned to
him and said, "Hey, do you want to be a rap group?" And he was like, "Is a [ __ ] Lily?" [laughter] And that was
it. We were a rap group. >> They practiced all the time competing with each other to make up the smartest
and funniest lyrics they could on the spot. So, we created a game called Porcupine and uh that was a way for us
to battle rap each other, but then also like throw each other words and then we just start freestyling off the word.
>> And why did you call it porcupine? >> Because some people think that's a hard
word to rhyme with, but when someone throws a hard word like porcupine, [music] it can make the game funner. But also,
we would use it as like that would be the last [music] word to try uh beat the other person with. You couldn't win the
game unless you ended [music] with something to do with a porcupine. >> They started performing gigs in bars
near their college in Dundee and their friend Oscar [music] joined the group. Gavin says their main influence was
quote the best white rapper we could think of, Eminem. Eminem released his major label debut
album, The Slim Shady LP, in 1999, not long after Gavin and Billy had met. One reviewer wrote that his lyrics are
so clever that he makes murder sound funny. One night, Gavin, Billy, and Oscar [music] stayed out very late and ended
up going back to Gavin's room. Oscar got on the computer. I mean, the internet was kind of early days. So, he just
randomly found this thing that was on a website called undergroundhip hiphop.com
and it was just this kind of flyer, this poster for Are You the Next Eminem? And
uh as soon as we saw it, we thought, "Yeah, of course we are." [snorts] A record label was holding open
auditions in London. Gavin, Billy, and Oscar took a 13-hour bus ride there, playing Porcupine most of the way. But
when they finally got to the audition, the line to get in went around the block twice.
>> It was quite apparent there's just no way we're going to get in cuz there's far too many people here. And um so what
we decided to do was to go and uh um ask if we could battle people for their spot. So we and knowing like hip-hop
people once you get challenged to battle, you can't say no. um if you say no, you essentially step aside and let
us just take your spot. So at first most people would say yes and then we started
battling and eventually after you beat like 10, 15, 20 people the the seas part, you know, and by the time we got
to the front there was a there was so many people behind us kind of rooting for us like oh my god these guys
actually are like Eminem. So the feeling outside is that these three Scottish kids are just going to walk this. And so
our confidence is so high. Well, as soon as we get in and we're going past these
dance studios and it starts to become very commercialized [snorts] and we start to feel like, you know, so
we were kind of shrinking as we got closer and closer and closer. When they got to the audition room, they handed
the sound guy their CD. Gavin remembers there were X's on the floor for them to stand on in front of a table with three
English talent scouts from the record label ANRS sitting behind it. >> And then we said to press play and the
guy presses play, but he hasn't turned the the volume up. So by the time the beat comes in, it's already like halfway
into the song. [laughter] So we're like, "No, no, no. Please put it back to the start." And now we're just like shaking
because it's all going wrong. [snorts] Um, so then we start to rap. What can I'm the impact of a fat drum? I'm
smacking my spot. The rappers acting handsome. I'm the m starting with like asking for a smack and after
>> and as soon as we start to rap, you know, you're hyper aware the situation. You're so focused on everything. You're
looking around the room. And when you're a rapper, you're constantly making eye contact with people cuz you feed off
their, you know, their response. And the three of these these ANRs were just like
kind of looking at each other at the side of their eyes and kind of trying to stop themselves from laughing.
>> And then about like 30 seconds in 30 40 seconds into my rap verse, they just kind of put their hand up to the sound
guy and said, "Cool. That's enough." And then they just were kind of like laughing and one of them said, "Is this
a joke? You know, did Dave put you up to this?" And uh we said, "No, this this is
serious." They they said, "This is this is a this is a cool comedy act, but not quite what we're looking for." You know,
Scotland is Grounds Keeper Willie. It's Braveheart. It's Shan Connory. You know,
it's it's drunk ginger people in skirts. Scotland is not rap. We can't sell that.
>> Gavin says they all went straight to a pub after that. And while they were there, they decided
to go and try to see someone else before they left London. >> I just thought they don't get it. But so
then let's go let's go somewhere to someone who gets it. And there was a guy called Dave Loe who ran Word Play and
the biggest hip-hop magazine in Europe, Hip-Hop Connection. So I thought, let's go and see Dave Loe and we'll ask him,
you know. So we go there. Um it's kind of like this uh security. you got to get past a security gate. So, we wait for
ages. Eventually, a guy bringing records comes up the road. He goes in, we sneak
in. Um, we get to their office. Billy's trying to flirt with the the lady on reception to buy his time to get in
until he walks past. And eventually, he walks past and we're like, Dave, you know, and we kind of like just don't
want to leave. We're like, look, [music] it it's taken a lot to get here. We're not leaving until you give us like 5
minutes. So eventually [snorts] we go into his office and um we're like, "Here's our songs. Like, let us know
what you think." And he's like, "All right." You know, so he starts playing the CD and he plays the first beat and
he's like, "Oh god." Yeah. And you can see he really loves the beat. And then as soon as one of us starts rapping,
he's like, "Nah." Skips to the next one. And then the same thing. He's like loves
the beat and then skips to the next one as soon as vocals come in. And um the third one, he loves the beat again as
soon as we start rapping. pulls the CD out and uh he said, "Don't make me say it." And I said, "No, say it." And he's
like, "You [ __ ] sound like the rapping proclaimers." And the Proclaimers are are are great.
They're amazing Scottish group. Um they sing that classic song, I will walk 500 miles. and uh they're Scottish heritage,
but he's meaning it in a like they're a bit of a joke, you know, like no rapper would ever listen to that, you know?
>> Gavin says that he and Billy didn't say a word to each other for the whole 13-hour bus ride back home.
>> I kind of was really just trying not to cry and a part of me was like, they are
right, though. You know, I I saw that if your job is in marketing at the time and
hip-hop was all about uh your credibility, what you've gone through, you know, like what street you come
from, you know, like the branding of rap in America was so powerful and Britain didn't quite have that yet and Scotland
definitely didn't have that, you know, so I so they were right, they can't sell it. So, I understood that, but then that
left me with the predicament of, "Well, then we can never do this." >> When Gavin got back home, he started
spending more and more time alone. And he wasn't sleeping well. And then one night, he was watching TV and a movie
came on. >> A film that I'd seen loads from the 80s called The Secret of My Success. And
there's a scene where Michael J. Fox's character. Um, he's trying to get this job that he's a little small town boy
and he's trying to make it in the New York City and he's just getting turned down everywhere, you know? It's cuz he
doesn't fit. They can't he doesn't fit in their world. And um [clears throat] he he goes into this one office to get
changed cuz he's not wearing the right thing and he's trying to like go to this uh meeting that he's got. And in this
office the phone rings and he picks it up and the person says, "Is that you know so and so?" and he goes, "Yeah."
And he and he starts to just pretend he [music] is. And he gets so empowered that that he can be that person. And I
think like, "Well, why don't we just become [music] someone else?" If being Scottish was the problem, then
they'd become Americans. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. [music] >> [music] >> We'll be right back. To listen without
ads, join Criminal Plus. Gavin Bane started recording himself rapping his lyrics with an American
accent just to see what it sounded like. So the first few times sober that I tried to record myself in the American
accent, it didn't sound good. It sounded fake. Like the way the tongue moves isn't the same as when you switch to
another accent. So I was struggling with that and then I was thinking too much when I was sober. So then I took certain
uppers with certain downers like to get knock myself off center so I could stop being hyperritical about myself and
allow myself to flow. And it sounded so good. It sounded real. It sounded like this kid is from California and he
sounds like Eminem. I liked the song so much that I took it to a party. My friend Brian was throwing
this big party and he used to throw like really cool parties where he'd have like
DJs and everyone he was into hip-hop in the area would be there. And so I go into the party and uh I gave our DJ at
the time, Skinny, I gave him the CD and I was like, "I'll play this." This is a new American rapper I just heard play
this, you know, and he played it right after an Eminem song. And everyone was dancing and loving the Eminem track and
then he played that song and nobody like no one batted an eyeadins. [music] [music]
>> They were like, "Is this the new Eminem track or something?" Like they just thought it was Eminem or they thought it
was an American rapper. And so I'm watching the room and then I look at Billy and he looks over to me cuz he
knows they're my lyrics and he's just like mind blown. He's like, "Oh my god, it sounds real." And then Gavin told
Billy about his idea to pretend to be Americans. Gavin says that Billy said no, but he
did want to see what it sounded like, and he experimented with recording some of their songs in an American accent.
A few weeks later, their friend Brian, who had thrown the party where Gavin played the song, died in an accident.
Gavin and Billy drove to the funeral together. On the way there, they listened to the
radio and then one of their songs came on with them rapping in American accents.
Gavin says they each thought they were playing a trick on each other. But when they got to the funeral, Brian's brother
told them that before Brian died, he'd entered the song into a national radio competition as a surprise and that it
had won. We'd beaten every single rock band, every single folk act, every pop act. We won it. And the song was getting
airplay. And uh Billy finally kind of turned around and said, "Okay, let's do this for Brian." And so we were on our
way. [music] >> Someone from Sony had heard the song on the radio and had gotten in touch to see
if they could meet with Gavin and Billy in person in London in 2 weeks. >> So we had 2 weeks to perfect the accent.
And so we made this agreement that we would speak to each other all the time in American accent. Everything we did,
we did an American accent. We'd have sex in American [music] accents. Um, >> wait, what? [laughter]
>> Which our our girlfriends thought was really [ __ ] annoying. Um, >> uh, and >> that does [laughter] seem really bad.
I'm surprised they stayed with you. >> I'm surprised as well. But, uh, >> but but you only you [music] like did
you know anything about Americans besides the movies? I mean, did what did you think Americans?
>> We were Yeah. No, we were like we just [music] grown up watching American movies. Um, we loved American standup
comedy. Um, and we just took a whole bunch of different characters and we mashed them
together. >> Gavin says they wanted to study interviews with American rap stars and
skaters, but all they could really get their hands on in time was a DVD of Friends [music] and a few American
movies. Gavin started watching Back to the Future over and over again until he could say Michael J. Fox's lines along
with him. He also watched a lot of Goodwill Hunting and studied Matt Damon's character.
Billy studied Matthew Perry's character [music] in Friends, Chandler. They watched as many episodes as they could.
Gavin says they paused it whenever Chandler said something funny and then tried to repeat it.
>> [music] >> They came up with new names for their American personas. Gavin Bane became
Brains McCloud and Billy [music] Boyd became Syllable. They called their group Syllable and Brains.
They decided they would be from California. [music] They picked a city called Hemet where
Billy actually had family. [music] Billy bleached his hair. Gavin tried out a trucker hat. They both started wearing
more colorful clothes. And at the end of the two weeks, they got back on the 13-hour bus ride to
London. The first place they went was Sony Records to meet [music] with Douggee Bruce, the scout who had heard their
song on the radio. And uh as soon as he sits down, he's like, "All right, all right, boys." You know, and he's got
this broad Glaswegian accent. the first [music] person, the first ANR that interviews us is Scottish. We're
screwed at that point because when someone's Scottish is speaking to someone Scottish, you start to to kind
of like you join, you know, and so we we were talking and and we were both finding it very difficult not to say
Scottish words. And then eventually he said something. He said I and Bill went straight back with I can, which is I
know in in Scotland. And two Americans would never know to say I can. It's in the way that Bill said it. And soon as
we said that, he looked straight at Billy and then he looked at me and it was like he knows, you know. So we felt
like uh everything that we were saying he was like where are you boys actually from? And the way he said actually was
like he knows. This is this is you know we're done here basically. And uh when we left that outside of the Sony
building, I grabbed Bill and I said, "This isn't going to work if we're halfassed. Like, we need to be in all in
like 24/7. We need to become the characters [clears throat] if this is going to work. Let's just be the the
craziest version of who we want to be. Turn it all up to 11 and let's just go, you And so as soon as we went to do a
show that night, we kick in the door, you know, we start stomping around like we own the place. We did this crazy
stage show, chasing each other around. We're vomiting on the front row. Um, and then when we came off stage, this guy
came up to us and he was like, "Uh, where are you guys from?" Now, earlier in the morning when
Doggy [snorts] Britt asked us, "Where are you guys from?" We both answered at the same time because we hadn't even got
our story in line. We were just so excited that we didn't even, you know, run through what our story is. So, in
the morning, I said Huntington and Billy said Hammet. At night, um, with, uh, Chris Rock at Island Records, Billy says
Huntington and I say [laughter] Hammet at the same time. And this guy is just looking at us like, cool. And he didn't
he didn't care. And he's like, great, here's my here's my card. He slid his card to us and he's like, come and see
me on Monday morning. When you say you were like banging and stomping, is that something you thought
like Americans did? Like they just kind of take the room? >> Yeah. Like [laughter] Yeah. If you watch
if you grown up watching rap music videos, we just basically became like our our favorite rappers in those
videos, you know. But then in person with people, we would switch to characters from like friends, you know.
And so we'd play, Bill would play a version of Joey and I would play a version of uh Ross or Chandler because
those are likable characters, you know, so we knew that when we're around people, don't be banging around. And
also that's those characters are actually closer to our personalities. >> I mean, it's it really feels like two
opposite ends of the spectrum to be Eminem on stage and Chandler off the stage. I don't really [laughter] know how those
two meld. >> You know, every artist I've ever met um has been one person on stage and
offstage a completely different person. I had seen loads of interviews uh with members of Slipnot and members of Korn
and all these um kind of dangerous kind of rock bands, but actually they were like real sweethearts when the masks
were off, you know? Gavin says that on Monday morning after going over their story again, he and
Billy went to Island Records to meet with Chris, the scout who'd given them his card at their show. Now that we're
American, he was selling himself to us. So, it's a big change, you know, and so he was like, "Tell me everything about
you [laughter] guys." And that's a different question from where you from or what do you do or you know cuz
[music] that you kind of feel like you're being examined. So Bill and I just started
telling this story like look we're from this this uh kind of uh cookie cutter neighborhood in Hemet and then you know
we we met each other at the San Diego um Vans tour because we had known a lot about that tour specifically because of
bands that that played. We were really interested that we had [music] the DVD about it. So, we actually knew some
things that happened and we knew that there was a battle rap competition that happened in the parking lot in that. So,
then we kind of incorporated that and I said that yeah, we we met at that [music] at San Diego World Tour and then
we moved to Huntington Beach, slept on the beach under the pier, [laughter] you know, like this is just like
versions of Chili Pepper songs now coming out, you know. And then uh we got um got this job in this uh skate store
and [music] and then you know we became a rap grip, came over here, ran out of money and now you're gonna give us a
record deal and let the fun continue. And the way it just flowed off the tongue, us cutting each other off. It
was like we were rapping. >> Gavin says Chris seemed to believe the story completely. Gavin remembers that
he even told them it [music] was beautiful. And he was like, "You've got to do that thing that you did the other
night." You know, cuz [music] basically we had this thing that if anyone heckled us from our audience, we
would just like pick that person out and then we would, [music] you know, just tear into that person with freestyles.
So he called all the ANRS into the the main kind of open area. And he was like, "All right, do that thing now.
Go." And he was basically telling us to go around the room just ripping into everyone. And I was like, "Oh
[clears throat] my god." You know, so like this is it. And so we just started doing it, you know, look at this guy in
the fake Adidas. Look at his beard. Who does he think he is? Jesus. You know, and just move on to the next person. And
eventually we get to to Chris. Everyone's like falling around laughing. We get to Chris and we start making fat
jokes. And Chris is quite fat. And Chris was not laughing at this point. [laughter]
He started to look furious that the joke had now been turned on him. But as all of his staff were in tears laughing and
then he they they realized he wasn't laughing and they all stopped and then he just burst out laughing and we knew
that we've got it. Then we just felt like God we this is easy. >> But Gavin says they couldn't just sign
with the record company. First they needed a lawyer and a manager. Chris got them a meeting with one of the biggest
music managers in London, a man named Jonathan Shaled. This guy is the Simon Cow, like the the
nicer version of Simon Co, you know? So, he just gets straight to the point and he's like, "What do you want?" And uh at
this point, we had no money. We had no money left. So, as soon as he said, "What do you need?" [snorts] I don't
know why I said it. Maybe it was like a line in another movie, but I said, "We don't get out of bed in an American
accent. We don't get out of bed for anything less than 70k." And Bailey looked at me like, "What the
holy crap," you know, >> but Jonathan Charlotte said, "Okay." >> And all of a sudden, we had 70,000.
[music] For a couple of days after that, we kept going to the bank machine to see if the
money was in. And [music] every day that it wasn't in, we felt like, "Ah, okay. This this isn't really real." And then
[music] the day that the money was in, we both never seen that amount of money in our bank [music] accounts. And I
think that changed something a little bit because my head started to be like, hm,
what if is this a crime? And and then Billy was like, [music] what if how is this our money? You know,
that didn't stop us from immediately going out and getting bloo drunk and having [music] the best week of our
lives getting hammered every single night. Jonathan Shallot's office [music] helped
get them set up in a big apartment and arranged for them to play at showcases around London, trying to see what kinds
of offers came in. And it [music] worked. After about 3 months, they made a deal with Sony. They went into the
office to sign [music] the contract. Gavin remembers it was in a big boardroom with staff there to help them
celebrate. [music] There was champagne and people kept coming up to them to ask them about the stories [music] they'd
heard about them. A big part of the story was [music] that we became very close friends with D12 and Eminem, which
is quite a stretch, but uh when you're like kind of improvising and acting, the whole point
is the same as freestyle is to make little links and [music] then let them grow and let them grow. So on that day,
we're in Sony and [music] this girl comes up um and she's like, "No way. you guys are
from Huntington Beach. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." She's like, "That's where I'm from." [music]
I'm like, "Oh, no." And she's like, "I heard you worked in a a skate store. What? Which one?" I'm like, "Oh no."
And I say, "Slam City Skates." And she's like, "No way. I work at Slam I work there as well." And I'm like, "Oh my
god, no." And I'm just dying inside. So I'm smiling. I'm like, "No way." Yeah, that's cool. But like I'm dying now cuz
and I'm starting to sweat and I'm looking around for Bill like I I need help here.
>> By this time Gavin and Billy had developed a system for whenever anybody started asking questions about their
lives in America. They called it lead and recover. >> So the lead recover system is that one
listens and one answers. And so if I'm answering and Bill's listening and I start to stutter or make a mistake, Bill
jumps in and either takes the person who's asking questions and takes them on a different direction or if it's getting
real bad can just, you know, throw a hand grenade in or do something to kind of distract so that they forget what
they were they were asking. So but but then on this day people are pulling Bill this way and we're not together. So
we're we're not an earshot of each other. So I'm now done. And I can feel the breathing, my breathing starting to
you kind of like you you're about to tell that I'm worried here, you know, uh, and I'm holding on for dear life.
And then Bill turns and looks and sees my face and he knows. And so Bill knocks a Mariah Carey poster, a frame like with
a you know a record in it um off the wall and it cracks and then everyone turns and I sneak out of the room and go
to the toilet. Went to the down at the toilet, vomited, kind of washed my face. But by the time I went back in,
Belle had kind of just [laughter] got everyone going again. And you know, she kind of forgot that lane of
questioning. >> Gavin says they signed the contract as syllable and brains for £50,000 upfront
and £300,000 more when they released more material and their album. Did you have a plan? Did you say, "Okay,
we'll go for this long or we'll make this much money and then we'll we'll tell people who we really are." I
remember in Dundee in Scotland saying, "Look, this is what we do. We go down, we get a record deal, you know, we blow
up overnight, get a number one record." Obviously, as soon as I hear someone singing my words back to me, I'm good. I
can walk from it. And then we go on Jonathan Ross's uh TV show, cuz Jonathan Ross is like the king of late night TV
here. And so we'll go on Jonathan Ross's show and then we'll just go, you know what, Jonathan, we're not American.
We've never been to America. We're Scottish. And then we'd make a point to be like, we always had talent. Why did
we need to do this? >> Not long after they signed the contract, Gavin and Billy got an appearance on the
UK version of one of MTV's most popular shows, Total Request Live. Put your hands together for syllable and
brains. >> What's up? What's up? What's up? >> Shut up. >> Thanks for coming on, guys.
>> You guys are great. >> Shut up. [cheering] >> Okay. Okay, >> boys. You are spanking new music.
>> Spanking. >> How would you describe your sound? >> Spanking. >> Spankingly new. [laughter]
>> Spankingly new for comedy, humor. New >> Excellent. >> Well, you did a performance for us to
try and drag this back from the edge of despair. Uh, your mom's is what it was called. What was it called? My mom's.
>> Just your mom's in general. Your mom's mom's in general. >> Don't bring my mom into it. Not on my
own show. [laughter] >> Let's take a look at it. It's very entertaining. >> Check it out.
>> That's your mom. [music] I was in luck WHEN SHE DIDN'T KNOW. And she's my fantasy. That's your mom.
[music] >> And then on live TV, the host asked them another question. >> So, were you guys from planet Zordon?
Really? We were adopted by aliens when we were kids and uh we travel around the solar system ever since then.
>> Gavin says that when he got home that night, he googled syllable and brains to
see what people were saying about them. >> And there was this website and these forums that were like, "What's Gavin
Bill doing?" All these people who knew us in our life were online going, "Wait, I know like what's [music] going on."
>> One comment read, "I had a fight with Gavin Bane [music] in a chip shop once.
wasn't in America, though. This was Dundee. Your man's a Scott. [music] Gavin says he and Billy got called into
Sony's offices the next day, [music] but when they got there, nobody said anything about them being from Scotland.
Instead, Gavin says they got the news that MTV wanted them to come back soon and that there was even some interest in
them hosting their own show. They started working on show ideas and going to meetings with TV producers.
Gavin says Sony decided to wait [music] to release Syllable and Brains first single until something happened with the
TV show. And in the meantime, Syllable and Brains was touring as much as they could. There was a lot of drinking every
single night, waking up the next morning, having two hours of not drinking, and then back on it. And uh
Bill and I at this point were starting to do back flips off uh drum risers. We kept trying to up our stage show and it
was [music] kind of getting dangerous. >> By the end of the tour, they were exhausted. Gavin says he went to bed as
soon as they got home at 6:00 a.m. >> And we've got like, you know, I I think I sleep for 1 hour and then my phone
goes at 7:00 a.m. and it's one of the managers at um Jonathan Charlott's office and he goes, "I've got good news
and bad news for you. The bad news is you're not coming off tour. The good news is you're going on
tour with your best friends." [laughter] And I'm thinking, who who who's our best
friends? And he's and I'm like, who? And he's like, Eminem and D12. [laughter] And so I'm like I'm just like, oh my
god, no. Like, how are we going to pull this off? [music] We'll be right [music] back.
A couple of hours after Gavin Bane and Billy Boyd heard they'd be going on tour with Eminem and his group D12, a tour
bus picked them up to take them to the first venue. They were excited, but Gavin says they also spent the whole
ride trying to figure out what to do. You know, anyone sees us for 5 minutes around them, they're going to see
unfamiliarity. Like, this will be over. As soon as we walk out in front of them, this will be
over. So, it was just like a let's just see how it goes. Maybe we can hide. Maybe we can stay away from them. And
so, then we hold on to that. We think, "All right, we'll just hide from them. We will not be in the same place they're
in." We come out of our tour bus. We walk right in. There's D12 on stage soundchecking
and [snorts] we're like [ __ ] And then we turn to go but all of the loadin's happening so we can't get past the
loaden. The other side all of our management team is there. Next to them is a camera
crew who are there for MTV filming D12 and Eminem over on this promotional tour. So there's nowhere to go. So, like
the clock was just ticking in my head like tech ticking their um soundchecking purple pills and we know when the song
ends and it's just a countdown to like them walking past us. And so where me and Bill are like looking at each other,
not saying a word, but we're having a crazy conversation with our eyes. And as soon as our song finishes, I look at
Bill and we kind of like, "Yeah, [ __ ] it. Let's go." And then we just stomp on
the stage like like we own the place. were like, "What up?" You know, like start high-fiving them. I high-five um
Bizarre and I'm like holding him. I'm like kind of wrap my hands into his kind of belly and back [laughter]
so that he can't pull away from me. So, it looks like he's hugging me tightly and I'm like,
you know, and um I think from a distance it probably just looked like this was a
warm embrace from friends, but up close we could see their faces were like they were going through, who are these guys
again? >> But Gavin says they just went with it. They high-fived again and agreed to meet
up after the show. Gavin and Billy had never performed on such a large stage in front of such a
huge audience, almost 5,000 people. Gavin says he'd never sweated so much as he did when they went on stage that
night, and that once they got going, he never wanted it to end. [clears throat] They ended the set with a song they
hoped would become their hit single called Losers. >> Always in the wrong place [music] at the
wrong time. When God handed our brains, I send the wrong shallow like Psal. Trouble follows me like it's my shadow.
People see me and they [music] say I'm a weirdo cuz I be sticking dynamite in my
ear. >> The crowd went wild for them. It was everything they had dreamed of. >> And then after the show, Gavin and
Billy's lawyer pulled them aside. >> And he was like, "You're Gavin and you're Billy and I know it all." Gavin
and Billy's lawyer had been asking them for their American passports for months and months. They always told him they
couldn't find them and that they'd get them to him later. And then he saw the post on the hip hop
forum after their appearance on MTV saying that they were actually Gavin and Billy from Scotland, not Syllable and
Brains from California. >> And so he was really angry and he was like, "You need to come with me. we need
to speak to the label. I'm gonna pull you off the tour. We'll go to the label. We'll talk it through. And we're just
like, get lost. You're like, what are you smoking? You know, like we're just making out that he's completely crazy.
But then he says this thing to us where he's like I think he he got Bill on this
one. He was like, look, you didn't need to do this. You're so good. Why are you doing this? And I just laughed and uh
Bill walked into the the changing room and Eminem was about to come down the hallway with a whole camera crew from
MTV and Tim, our lawyer, was like, "Okay, so you're best friends with this guy?" "Okay, let me ask him quick." And
he was he was going to stop Eminem and ask him. And I was trying to call his bluff. I was like, "Yeah, yeah, ask
him." And then he got closer and closer and closer and I just like freaked out and I just like ran in the dressing
room, which to Tim said, "You're right." And yeah, um, so that [snorts] was very
that was very close, but Tim didn't go to the label and we didn't get caught. It just went on and on and on.
Billy and Gavin kept touring and playing pack shows and their MySpace page started filling up with messages from
fans. They got an endorsement deal with a soda company. Gavin had developed a stomach ulcer
>> and it just it was getting so big, you know, to the point where within 2 years,
this is 2 years now, we haven't released a record. [music] We've got all this stuff going for us and we haven't
released a record. Um, the amount of money that's been spent on us at this point is over a million.
>> Gavin was barely talking to his family. He says it took him out of character.
His girlfriend in Dundee had broken up with him after a visit during which he'd mostly spoken in an American accent
and he and Billy were drifting apart. Billy was going back to Scotland more often to visit his girlfriend [music]
and then he found out she was pregnant. Gavin says everything changed after that.
Billy had had enough. >> So basically we have [music] this big fight. Um, and it's one of those fights
you can't come back from, I'm afraid. [clears throat] So, essentially, the group was over. We
didn't get caught. And [music] the fact that the group was over was kind of a bit of a blessing because it
there was a um a clause in the contract that if the band breaks up before the record comes out, then you don't have to
pay the money back. And so we essentially got away with not having to pay that money back. I
>> mean, how did you announce it to the fans? >> We we kind of just didn't. We just kind
of went away. We went quiet. >> Billy went back to Scotland and eventually got a job on an oil rig.
Gavin stayed in London and tried to make it work without Billy, but Sony stopped
taking Gavin's calls. He says it was hard to give up his American persona. He worked odd jobs for a while. He
worked for an American skate shoe company. He spoke in an American accent when he applied and they thought he was
American. And then a couple of years after syllable and brain split up, Gavin heard
that one of his closest friends from childhood had cancer and he decided to put on a show
>> and then do it as a comeback show and make that money and then give give Ivan
the money for his treatment. >> But right before Gavin was about to go on stage, he heard that his friend had
died. And so when I walked out on stage, uh, I kind of just looked out and my band were playing the intro of the song
and I was I was missing keys to go into the first lyrics. And, uh, I tried to I tried to go into lyrics. I just couldn't
get anything out. I was just like crying. And so I stopped the music and I turned to the crowd and I said, "Uh, I'm
not Brains. I'm Gavin. Um, and I've never been to America. And so we got through that show. I came
off, but I just went to the dressing room and kind of couldn't really deal with everyone wanting to ask more
questions. So I hid in there until everyone was gone and I snuck out the back. And when I snuck out the back,
there was about 200 kids and I [music] was thought they wanted more answers like what what happened, you know? And I
just kind of started to apologize [music] and then they started to wrap my lyrics back to me.
They cared only about the lyrics. >> Billy and Gavin didn't speak for years, but in 2012, they briefly got back
together to record and finally release a syllable and brains album. They called it Dirty Rotten Scoundrels.
Gavin went on to have his own music career. He's working on an album right now. >> So, yeah, I'm just having a lot of fun.
And you're doing it all now in a Scottish accent. >> Yeah. Or whatever accent hits me.
[laughter] Criminal is created [music] by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior
producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie [music]
Sajiko, Lily Clark, Lena Sillison, and Megan Canain. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simeonetti.
Julian Alexander makes original illustrations [music] for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at
thisiscriminal.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com/newsletter.
Gavin Bane has written a book about syllable [music] and brains. It's called California Schkeeman. A movie about
their story with the same title is coming out this year. We hope you'll join our membership
program, Criminal Plus, [music] now on Patreon. It's the very best way to support our work. You can listen to
Criminal: This This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery [music] without any ads. Plus, you'll get bonus episodes,
behindthe-scenes photos, and videos, and you'll be able to talk directly with us
and other Criminal listeners. Learn more and sign up at patreon.com/criminal. We're on Facebook at Thisiscriminal and
Instagram [music] and Tik Tok at criminal_podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com/criminal
podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows [music] at podcast.voxdmedia.com.
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is criminal.

In the early 2000s, the hip hop group Silibil N’ Brains seemed like they were on the brink of becoming very famous. They had a record deal with Sony, had been on MTV, and were talking about making a TV show. But they weren’t who they said they were.

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Join Criminal Plus on Patreon for ad-free listening, bonus episodes, listener chat rooms, behind-the-scenes content, and more membership perks. https://www.patreon.com/Criminal

Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. https://pod.link/809264944

Say hello on Twitter (https://twitter.com/criminalshow) Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/criminal_podcast) Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/thisiscriminal) and TikTok (https://www.tiktok.com/@criminal_podcast)

Sign up for our occasional newsletter, which includes a note from Phoebe, behind-the-scenes photos, and things our team has been enjoying lately. https://thisiscriminal.com/newsletter

We also make the podcasts This is Love (https://pod.link/1337100398) and Phoebe Reads a Mystery (https://pod.link/1503921457).

Artwork by Julienne Alexander: http://www.yssrs.com/. Check out our online shop: https://shop.thisiscriminal.com/

Episode 352 originally published February 13, 2026. https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-352-the-big-lie-2-13-2026

Music in this episode: “Highride Chrome” by Blue Dot Sessions “Helvetica 3” by Blue Dot Sessions “Brer Krille” by Blue Dot Sessions “Decompression” by Blue Dot Sessions “The Cornice” by Blue Dot Sessions “Lobo Lobo” by Blue Dot Sessions “Speed Reader” by Blue Dot Sessions “Sharp Lapel” by Blue Dot Sessions “Copley Beat” by Blue Dot Sessions “Secret Pocketbook” by Blue Dot Sessions “Ile on Grentham” by Blue Dot Sessions “Hedgeliner” by Blue Dot Sessions “Gentle Son” by Blue Dot Sessions

Brief Summary

Gavin Bane shares his journey from Scottish rapper to American persona and the challenges faced with identity and friendship in the music industry.

Key points

Gavin Bane's College Encounter. Gavin recalls meeting Billy Boyd on his first day of college, leading to an unexpected friendship.
The Audition Disaster. Gavin and Billy face rejection at an audition, leading to a pivotal realization about their identity.
A Surprising Win. After a tragic loss, Gavin and Billy discover their song won a national radio competition.
Transforming Identities. Gavin and Billy decide to adopt American personas to pursue their rap dreams.
Record Deal Negotiation. Gavin and Billy boldly ask for $70,000 and get it!
Touring with Eminem. Gavin and Billy are shocked to learn they'll tour with their idol, Eminem.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

That's you just started off with the hardest question.

0:15WatchMay 15, 2026

Tension

70/ 100High tension

More from Criminal | A Podcast About Crime

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.