Spiral: Murder in Detroit | Post Mortem | Forensic Files

Welcome to a special episode of 48 hours postmortem. I'm your host Ann Marie Green [music] and today we are taking
you behind the scenes of a new true crime series from our colleagues at the Free Press. It's called Spiral: Murder
in Detroit and it tells the story of the life and death of Samantha Wall. Wall was the 40-year-old president of a
synagogue in downtown Detroit and a well-known community leader and activist. She was found stabbed eight
times just outside of her home on October 21st, 2023. So, who would want to kill this beloved
figure? The twists and turns this case takes will definitely surprise you. So, we shared a special preview of episode 1
in the 48 hours podcast feed. So, you're going to want to go listen to that first
if you have not already. All right, let's get started. I am joined today by the host of Spiral, Franny Block. And I
just want to let everyone know, special note here, that the free press, like CBS
News, is owned by Paramount Sky Dance. Uh Franny, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. Um
it it's a really good podcast and it's a a very layered podcast. It's, you know,
you think you're sort of going to listen to a straightforward crime podcast. There's so much more uh to discuss. So,
first off, who is Samantha Wall and why did you want to do this story? So, Samantha Wall is an extremely special
person and I didn't actually know Samantha, but I first heard her name on the day that she died. And by the way,
I'm going to use Samantha and Sam interchangeably. Many people called her Samantha, but a lot of her close friends
and family also called her Sam. She was the president of the downtown Detroit synagogue, the last remaining synagogue
in downtown Detroit. And she was killed two weeks to the day after October 7th, 2023. The day that Hamas terrorists
stormed southern Israel, killing 1,200 people, taking 250 people hostage was a really scary, vulnerable time for Jews
all over the world. And I actually found out about Sam's death because my mom called me. My mom is also the president
of a synagogue. and she said, "Franny, I'm really, really scared. I'm too scared to even leave my house because
this has just happened to this person, Samantha Wall. What if people come and target me?" Over time, I started
following the case from afar. And I happened to be in Detroit reporting on another story for the free press. And I
decided to go to the downtown synagogue for Shabbat services cuz I was in town. And while I was there, it happened to be
the night that they were dedicating the final stage of their renovation. They opened this beautiful roof deck garden.
And they dedicated it to Sam. [snorts] And that was really when I started to learn what an amazing and special person
she was, the legacy that she left, and how much she did for the Jewish community of Detroit. And I continued to
pursue the case from there, connecting with her family and starting to uncover more details about the investigation
into her death. I remember uh this case from sort of my vantage point at the time I was anchoring on CBS News
streaming and so I remember when it came up and it's true you know it happened not too long after the October 7th
attacks there was a real concern in this country that there was going to be some
sort of spillover and that this could be a hate crime an anti-semitic crime very
quickly it seems like police discounted that. They said, "No, it's not." >> So, you're absolutely right. Within 2
days, the police held a press conference and they all but ruled out the possibility of a hate crime. I asked um
Captain Matthew Bray of the Detroit Police Department about that. I said, "How did you rule this out so quickly?"
And he basically said, "We didn't rule it out as much as we didn't see any evidence pointing toward a hate crime,
>> but they they still had to sort of find a suspect." So, let's sort of dig into
the case and remind people um of some of the facts, right? Can you give me kind of the basic timeline for October 21st
uh 2023? So, what we know is that that night Samantha had come home from a wedding. She arrived home to her condo
in Detroit at 12:30 in the morning. The next thing we know is because Sam had an
ADT home alarm system inside her condominium, she had opened her back door and then closed it at 12:35 and
again at 12:38. Sam's alarm system showed she never fully closed her front door. Then the
next piece of information we get is that at around 1:24 in the morning, her ADT home alarm system goes idle, meaning it
doesn't detect any more motion in her living room. Now, police in investigating this case believe Sam was
still awake then and maybe just perhaps laying on her couch because she had been
using her phone. She'd sent a few texts. She opened Netflix. Her phone then goes
inactive at 1:35 a.m. The next piece of information we get is that at 4:20 in the morning, there's motion detected in
her living room and then the system goes idle again at 4:22, just 2 minutes later. And the next thing we know is
Kevin Maul, Sam's neighbor, discovered her body outside around 6:20 in the morning. But the police believe that she
was killed inside of her apartment because that's where the blood evidence takes them. There's pools of blood
inside her apartment in her living room along the hallway leading outside. Okay.
So, we're going to get into a few more details uh when it comes to this investigation. So, if you're one of
those people who like to be completely surprised with every episode of podcast, you might want to hold off listening to
this particular podcast until you've listened to the whole series. But if you're not, you want to know a little
bit more, here we go. Um, so there are two men that end up at the center of this case. Authorities released one of
those men, but then the other man they charge, uh, he's facing four counts, including two different charges of
murder. So, why did police end up focusing in on Michael Jackson Bologanos as a possible murder suspect here? So,
the police really grounded their investigation in the video surveillance footage. And the reason that they zero
in on him is that they can see in the video surveillance footage of the parking lot in Samantha Wall's apartment
complex that Michael Jackson Banos was in the parking lot around 4 in the morning. Then the next time they see him
on video surveillance footage is about 23 minutes later. He's seen a couple blocks away from Samantha's home walking
past a casino that has a few pickers outside. And then as he turns a corner, gets out of the view of those pickers,
Michael starts to run. And just to remind listeners why this timing is significant, remember that Sam's ADT
home alarm system had motion in her living room at 420 and then it went idle again at 4:22. So they were able to find
his phone data as well, and they're able to match that phone data with the security camera footage data to confirm
that this is in fact Michael on these cameras. And they see footage of him going into parking structures, seemingly
going into cars, taking some things. Now, Michael is a previously convicted felon. He actually has prior felonies
related to stealing cars, stealing from cars. Once they bring Michael in for questioning, they're able to search his
girlfriend's apartment. That's where he'd been staying. They find his jacket, and they also find a backpack that he
had on him. They test both of them, and they come back positive for Samantha Wall's blood. And that jacket had been
washed, so we don't know how much blood originally was on that jacket. There's also a couple more bits of evidence that
come out as well in the trial. Michael had made some suspicious Google searches. He had searched blacklight
sees what shortly after Sam had been killed, maybe to, you know, check, you know, the black light for blood or
something like that if it was visible on clothing. And the other search he made was for a Detroit sameday passport. And
this search actually happened shortly after the other suspect was reportedly released by the authorities.
So, the police start to build this case around Michael with all of this different evidence, but it's also really
important to point out they don't have any direct evidence that Michael actually entered Samantha's home that
night, >> right? And they don't have a weapon. Um, and they kind of don't really have a
motive. And then there's this twist that I knew nothing about until I listened to
your podcast. It's a huge one. 2 weeks after Sam's murder, but before Michael is picked up
by police, her exboyfriend Jeffrey Herbsman calls 911. He's in a hotel parking lot. He is distressed. He
is having a panic attack. So, police respond to the scene because of his 911 call. And I want to play some of that
body cam footage. It's a little hard to hear, so you got to focus a bit. me with my girlfriend and I don't
remember it. >> Where does your girlfriend stay at? >> She lived in Detroit. Lived in Detroit.
[clears throat] >> Okay. >> You killed her. Good morning. Good morning. >> He says, "I'm convinced that I may have
murdered my girlfriend and I don't remember it." the police asked, "Why would you do that?" And he said, "I had
the motive and the opportunity." Um, he goes on to share Sam's name with the police. Franny, what more can you tell
us about this call and the impact that it had on the investigation? So, this had a huge impact on the police's
investigation and later the case against Michael as well. Obviously, the police take him in for questioning. He's just
seemingly confessed to a murder. And slowly Jeff tells us, cuz we were able to speak
to Jeff actually for this podcast, that he starts to kind of question his own mind once he's in police custody,
wondering, you know, why did I do that? What did I say? Did did I could I actually have killed Sam? And he's he's
very confused. And later he actually tells us that he had mixed different drugs that night. He' taken prescription
medication and mixed it with marijuana. and he believes he basically hallucinated and convinced himself he
could have done this. >> It was four hits of not super potent weed. It just like just something to
take the edge off. Had been prescribed a higher dose than previous of the medication that I was on. And so I took
that dosage and I had asked my psychiatrist if it was okay if I smoked marijuana because it relaxed me. And in
this case, it didn't relax. I don't know if it was the marijuana, but I was not relaxed. It didn't help. It was one of
the most terrifying things that I've ever experienced. Thinking that I had done something that's so counter to
everything that I stand for and believe in and would ever want to do. And yeah, the idea that I was responsible was just
it was absolutely terrifying. >> And we actually called up an expert about this because I was very confused.
You know, I I had heard of people making false confessions in an intense police interrogation setting, but I didn't know
if that was possible to do if you weren't being interrogated. I I I'd never heard of that before. So, I called
up an expert, a guy named Alan Hirs, and he actually told me that this is something called an internalized false
confession. It typically happens in an interrogation setting, but it can also happen outside of an interrogation. And
it's when someone convinces themselves that they may have done something and they didn't actually do it. And it's
characterized by someone saying, "I may have. I could have." So, Gersh tells me this sounds like a false confession, but
at the trial, Jeff's testimony becomes a really big piece of it because obviously
you hear him say, "I I think I murdered her." And that's that's a really hard statement to overcome. And and by the
way, I also do want to emphasize that police they took Jeff into custody for about 3 days and they did let him go
because they couldn't find any physical evidence tying him to the crime. >> So what was their relationship like and
what was the breakup like? >> This becomes actually a really important question in the later case. And if you
talk to Jeff, it sounds like they had a really nice relationship. They had a lot
in common, but ultimately it sounds like some of Jeff's mental health struggles contributed to the end of their
relationship. But the way he describes it, it it was very amicable. Obviously, the defense tried to paint it in a very
different light, and they ask Jeff a lot about jealousy. Part of the reason they
do this and can do this is cuz when Jeff called the police and later in the body
cam footage, the the cop asks, "Why why would you do this?" And he says, "Well, I I was upset with her for breaking up
with me." Okay. So, this does become a central question in the case. So, Jeffrey Herbsman is released and it
[music] the focus is Michael Jackson Bologanos. He goes on trial in 2024, 8 months after Sam's death. And one of the
biggest challenges for his defense and the part that I found quite challenging too is the physical evidence. Uh you
know you can maybe explain away a lot of stuff but at the end of the day he had her blood on his jacket and that is that
is the big challenge. How is that explained? So, Michael actually did something unusual in a criminal case and he
actually took the stand in his own defense and he basically told the jury a story that they had never heard before,
which was he said, "I was in the neighborhood that night." He admits that he was actually doing things he wasn't
supposed to be. He was breaking into people's cars that night um and kind of taking some items and things like that
and wandering around the neighborhood. He admits I was in the parking lot. I was near Samantha Wall's apartment, but
I didn't kill her. Instead, what happened was I saw her outside. She was found outside. I saw her outside on the
sidewalk. I noticed this figure. I went over to the figure to see what was going
on. I noticed it was a body. I bent down to check for a pulse. I realized that there was no pulse. And I realized that
this was a dead woman, a dead white woman, and I'm a black man standing outside in the middle of Detroit. So, of
course, I didn't call the police and tell them. And that's the story he tells on the stand.
>> Right, Franny? Let's play a little bit of sound of Michael's testimony. >> When I realized she was dead, I wanted
nothing to do with the entire situation. I'm a black guy in the middle of the night breaking in the cars and I found
myself standing in front of a dead white woman. That doesn't look good at all. So
what is so interesting about this is you know how you feel about what Michael Jackson
Bolano says, how you feel about what Jeffrey Herbsman says, you know, in many ways may be impacted by your own
personal life experiences. Um, you know, when I listened to what he he said on the stand, there was a part of me who
understood who understood that fear and how this could go terribly wrong. Then there's the human in me that is like,
but for God's sakes, do something. When I listen to Jeff, I know that people have panic attacks. I've certainly fel
felt anxiety. Um, but I've never interacted with anyone who was under so much pressure
that they would say something like, "Maybe I committed a murder." Right? So, you have to like, as you listen to this
podcast, you have to work very hard to check your own personal experiences and put them on the shelf and just listen to
the evidence. Um, but you can't help but to sort of fold in a conversation about,
you know, how you feel about policing, what the city of Detroit have been going through, what African-American
community, minority communities, how they feel about whether or not the justice system is is fair. And this is
all I mean, you explore all of this to a certain degree in this podcast. >> Yes. And that it was very intentional
that as we were uncovering more about this case, we started to realize that so much about how you feel about the
different suspects in this case, about how the justice system played out, in many ways, as you said, it's a
reflection of our own life experiences. It's also a reflection of so much that's
been going on in our society culturally. And so that was another element of this
case that I think made it so important to tell. And as you said, you know, it's it's understandable, you know, Michael's
story that he could have seen a body, that he could have been scared. I I could understand that, too. And so, you
could look at this case and say, "Well, that that makes total sense, and he was just in the wrong place at the wrong
time," which is what his defense says. Or you could look at this case and say, "Here's a man who was he has a history.
He he is a previously convicted felon, and he's got a murdered woman's blood on his jacket." And so it really, you know,
there there are two very different perspectives you can take on on Michael's story.
>> But then kind of at the center of all of this, right, is Samantha's family. And
they just want some sort of justice and just, you know, explain what happened to
their loved one. None of these other conversations matter to them. They have to sit through this trial. What was it
like for them? So, they sat through every day of this trial, which I I putting myself in their
shoes, I I don't know how they did that. And I I can imagine for any family member of a victim of a crime like this,
just I I can't even imagine how difficult that was. And I know it was very painful, but I know that they also
felt a strong obligation to be there for Sam and to be, you know, um, showing their support for her and and also her
memory and just wanting to make sure that she got justice. I think that the family is extremely
resilient and incredibly thoughtful and obviously they loved Sam so much. I think at the same time,
they're also so tired now. And so that brings us to it's almost like this podcast has several acts to like one
more act in this. Right. So explain what the verdict is. Yes. So he's charged with four counts. Premeditated murder,
felony murder, and home invasion. And he's also charged with lying to the police. So Michael gets acquitted of
premeditated murder. He gets convicted of lying to the police, but the jury is hung on felony murder and home invasion.
And as you said, this kind of brings us to the last act in this story, which is the judge ends up dismissing the felony
murder and the home invasion counts against Michael. And the reason is because Michael's defense team gets this
tip to look into a old Supreme Court case from 2009 called Joerger v. United States. And we explain this more in the
podcast, but I'll just tell you for now what you need to know, which is this case essentially expanded the definition
of double jeopardy. And the judge had to conclude because of the Supreme Court case that because Michael had been
acquitted of one type of murder, he couldn't be retrieded on a different type of murder that had similar elements
to the murder he'd already been acquitted of. We'll we'll see what happens in the appeals. I mean, I'm
really interested to follow what happens. You know, so often I see um with families um that have to kind of
endure this kind of tragedy um how you said the family is resilient, but I I wonder if this is kind of stopping them
from kind of moving forward, you know. So we actually do talk about this in the podcast too. One thing is we spoke to a
lot of rabbis actually. Sam was Jewish. She was a very prominent Jewish leader. And I asked a rabbi about this. I said,
"How does the family, how does Sam's circle, how do they process and grieve her death without what feels like
justice?" And he said um this amazing quote. He said to not let the forces of evil win. And so I think a lot of Sam's
family are trying to take that message forward, but at the same time, there are also lines from the Torah that talk
about the pursuit of justice and trying to get justice for loved ones. And I think that also drives them forward
knowing that, you know, spiritually they are trying to seek justice for Sam while
also not trying to let the forces of evil win. And I think that's been driving them a lot.
>> And Michael's team is even trying to make some changes too. They feel he hasn't gotten justice as well.
>> Yeah. >> So even though the judge dismisses the felony murder and home invasion charges
against Michael, she still can sentence him to prison for lying to the police, which he's convicted of. and she
sentences him to this really indefinite sentence of 18 months to 15 years in prison. Um, so the last episode of
Spiral has not come out yet. Um, we know now obviously that Michael Jackson Banos
is is serving time for lying to the police, but we find out that you receive a letter from him. Um,
can you I don't know if you can give us kind of like a little bit of a hint of what's to come.
So, we do receive a letter from Michael in prison. We'd written to his defense team to try to get a bit more
biographical information about him, and we'd actually tried a couple times. We asked to speak to him, and they
consistently said no. But then one day, they sent us this letter. And in this letter, Michael maintains his innocence.
He says, "I did not kill Samantha Wall, but I also feel like I haven't got the justice that I deserve either." And so,
I'll leave it at that for the fifth episode. That is fascinating. Um I know for me it's a if it's a very interesting
crime story. Yes. Um but it just kind of brought into focus the flaws. It's the only system we have.
There are flaws. Um so I'll ask you, what are you hoping that listeners get out of this? Well, I think you hit the
nail on the head. The last episode is called a beautiful but imperfect system >> and it's exactly that sentiment. It's no
matter how hard we try, no matter what we do in this system, there's this kind of very hard pill to swallow at the
conclusion of this story, which is that no matter what we do, this system will not be perfect. And what does justice
look like? What what can we do to improve this system? What changes can we make to make it better? So I I do hope
that people talk about these big questions. But I would say overall the really important takeaway I hope people
take from listening to this story is the life of Sam. The way Samantha Wall lived
her life, the values she lived by. She was a bridgeuer. She dedicated her entire life to trying to bring different
communities together. She was a leader in bringing the Jewish and Muslim communities together in Detroit. She was
somebody who could sit across the table from someone who had totally different political views from her and still have
an amazing in-depth conversation. It could be a debate. They could be going back and forth, but she wouldn't shy
away from something like that. She was kind. She was always smiling. She was always doing anything for everybody. And
so my hope overall from people listening to this podcast is that they take something away from Sam's life that they
reflect in their own lives, how could I live a life more like Samantha Walls. >> Oh, I love that. That's like a sort of
perfect final statement for this conversation. Uh Franny, thank thank you so much once again. I really enjoyed the
podcast. Thank you so much for having me and thanks to you all for listening. You
can [music] find Spiral Murder in Detroit wherever you get your podcast. Uh, the [music] same is true for 48
hours postmortem. If you like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify.

"48 Hours" correspondent Anne-Marie Green explores Frannie Block's new podcast for The Free Press, a Paramount publication, on the murder of beloved Detroit community leader Samantha Woll. In the early days, there were concerns her killing was an antisemitic hate crime, but a suspect was charged weeks later. He insisted he was innocent, and his shocking trial led to further questions about race, bias, doubt, and justice.

True crime. Real justice. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses Samantha Wall's murder and the investigation surrounding it, featuring insights from Franny Block about the true crime series "Spiral."

Key points

The Murder of Samantha Wall. Samantha Wall, a beloved community leader, was found murdered in Detroit.
Confession or Hallucination?. Jeffrey Herbsman calls 911, convinced he may have killed Samantha Wall, leading to confusion.
Michael's Alibi. Michael Jackson Bologanos claims he found Samantha's body but didn't call the police.
Trial Verdict. Michael Jackson Bologanos is acquitted of premeditated murder but convicted of lying to police.
The Pursuit of Justice. Sam's family grapples with grief and the pursuit of justice after her death.
A Beautiful but Imperfect System. Exploring the flaws in the justice system and what justice truly looks like.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What if people come and target me?

Franny Block recounts her mother's fear after Samantha Wall's murder.

2:26WatchNov 8, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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