Rochester 1991 | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

Phoebe Judge: This episode contains descriptions of physical violence against women.
It may not be suitable for everyone. Please use discretion. Kim Dadou: Well, actually, I knew Darnell from high school.
We had the same art class together and he was very, very handsome. I always thought he was a cutie.
And he would meet me at my locker and we used to do silly things like hold hands under the
art table and just dumb stuff, even though we were never going to go out together.
Phoebe Judge: This is Kim Dadou. She was a freshman in high school in Rochester, New York, when she met Darnell Sanders in
1981. She liked him. She says everyone liked him. But he was a couple years older, and she would never go out with him.
Kim Dadou: And after high school we lost touch. Phoebe Judge: Kim graduated, got a job.
And, as she puts it, got married way too young. It didn't work out. They split up, she moved out and got on with her life.
Kim Dadou: I was your typical, big hair, '80s girl. I loved '80s music. I worked.
I worked at Rochester General Hospital. I worked at the United Cerebral Palsy Association.
I was just your average young woman in her 20s, in the '80s. Phoebe Judge: And then one day she bumped into Darnell Sanders.
She hadn't seen him since high school. Kim Dadou: I went to court with a friend of mine one day, she was going to court and I
happened to go with her. And Darnell was right there in the courthouse. I hadn't seen him in years and he was right there and I was like, "Oh my gosh, wow.
It's been a long time." Phoebe Judge: What was he doing in the courthouse? Kim Dadou: Apparently he had gotten into some physical altercation, so he said.
He had told me he got jumped. So I didn't question him or anything like that. So we exchanged numbers.
Phoebe Judge: After two weeks, she started to think he was never going to call. And then he finally did.
Kim Dadou: And we were inseparable from that day on. [Music comes in.] Phoebe Judge: What did he do for a living?
Kim Dadou: Oh, he worked for the state hospital in Rochester. We have a state psychiatric center, and he worked there.
And so I used to go to work with him at the state hospital and we used to go into different
buildings and I mean... We were young and we were a fresh relationship. And we used to, seriously, I hate to say this, we used to have sex all over the state hospital.
Like everywhere we went, he just wanted to have sex. And I was like, okay. I thought this guy was really into me.
I thought this was great. I thought that he was my Prince Charming. I said, holy crap, I just got out of this horrible marriage.
Here's Darnell, who, he treats me like a princess. He had his homeboy chauffeur us around while he, I mean, this may sound corny, but he like
finger-fed me shrimp in the back seat. And I don't know, I guess just being treated like a queen kind of felt good, you know?
Just being chauffeured around and bought nice things and treated wonderfully and the passion.
And I was just like, wow, maybe I found my Prince Charming, this guy's great. Phoebe Judge: After six months, Darnell asked Kim to marry him.
They drove to a park, he turned off the car, and presented his grandmother's engagement
ring. [Music fades out.] Kim Dadou: And I told him I couldn't marry him. And he hit me, and he hit me so hard my face bounced off the glass.
Phoebe Judge: What did he say after he hit you? Kim Dadou: That I shouldn't be leading him on.
He thought that I was worthy, apparently I'm not. So I remember, I was trying to stay really, really calm.
And I was crying, because I'm in shock and my face is burning and my head is hurting.
And I said, "Could you please take me home?" As calm as I could, because I wanted to just jump out of the car and run screaming.
But I said, "Could you please take me home?" And he took me home. Phoebe Judge: Did he call you the next day or later that night?
Kim Dadou: Of course, that night. That night. "What are you doing? Can I come over?
Let me come get you." [Music comes in.] And when he was nice, I was happy. Things were good.
When things were good, things were really good. But when things were bad, things were horrible.
Phoebe Judge: Kim says other people like to tell her what she should have done differently,
starting that night in the car. What they would have done, if they were her. But in the end, it was 12 jurors who determined the one thing she absolutely should not have
done. I'm Phoebe Judge, this is Criminal. Kim Dadou: I tried to hide it for a long time.
I mean, my sister Janine, she's not really my sister, but she was my friend that was
like my sister. She was also in an abusive relationship. So we would sit at her kitchen table and she'd have a black eye and I'd have a busted lip,
or we're all bruised up or whatever. And I'm saying, "You should leave him." And she'd look at me and say, "You should leave him."
So it just went on. Phoebe Judge: Kim had been seeing Darnell for about a year the first time the police
got involved. They were all at her mother's house. Kim and Darnell were fighting.
Kim was yelling, and her mother called the police. Kim says it was the first of many times the police were called.
She repeatedly went to court to try to get restraining orders. Kim Dadou: Going to court was scary.
[Music fades out.] Him lying to the people at court was scary. Him making me look bad to the police and to the judge was scary.
Phoebe Judge: And embarrassing for you, right? Kim Dadou: It was. He said he didn't hit me.
He said he didn't scare me. He said he didn't intimidate me or threaten me, when he did.
And we'd leave. And that night he'd show up at my house in the middle of the night, because my mom worked
nights. So he would just let himself in. And I would wake up and he would be standing over me.
That happened a lot. That was pretty intimidating. Phoebe Judge: That's pretty terrifying.
Kim Dadou: Well. Yeah. But then I would open my eyes and see the look on his face and be like, "Oh, it's okay."
[Music comes in.] Or I'd open my eyes and see that look on his face and be like, "Oh shit, here we go."
One time he beat me up. [Tearfully.] It was my birthday and a guy — we stopped to get gas, and the guy...
I just happened to say, "It's my birthday." And he was like, "Well, happy birthday."
And he gave me a couple pieces of gum. It was the stupidest thing. A gas station attendant gave me a piece of gum for my birthday.
But Darnell was watching the whole thing from the car. And when I got back — I pumped the gas.
And when I got back in the car, I knew he was pissed. And I handed him the piece of gum.
And I said, "Here you go." I said, "He gave me this for my birthday." And he said, "You think that's fucking cute, don't you?"
And I said, "No, not at all." I said, "I thought it was pretty dumb. He gave me a stick of gum for my birthday."
And it was about a 15-minute ride from where we were to his job. And within that time, he had dislocated my right arm.
It was my elbow, my shoulder. I couldn't move it. He twisted it up behind my back.
And I was driving while all this was going on. And he kept telling me, "You better not crash this car."
And he proceeded to beat the hell out of me until I got him to his job. [Crying.]
[Music ends.] So I dropped him off at the front door and I drove right around to emergency.
And I said, "I used to work here. I know that you guys put our names up on the board when we're new patients."
I said, "Could you not put my name on the board?" I said, "The person that did this to me works here, and I don't want him to know I'm in
emergency." I said, "But I can't drive to another hospital right now." And they treated me.
And they never put my name up on the board. Phoebe Judge: By Thanksgiving of 1991, it had been four and a half years since Kim and
Darnell had started seeing each other. Kim says Darnell had been arrested for assault five times.
On December 17th, Darnell asked if he could come talk to her. Kim was at her mother's house with her sister, Wendy, who was nine
months pregnant. Kim waited and waited. She thought he wasn't going to show. Kim Dadou: And then he showed up, at about midnight.
Phoebe Judge: He pulled up outside the house and honked the horn. Kim Dadou: I just threw on some boots and ran.
It was snowing. I mean, it was December 17th in Rochester. We had snow, and my mom lived out by the lake so there was a lot of snow.
And I ran outside to the car. And I got in the car and we started hugging and kissing and everything was okay for a
minute. And he said he needed some insurance papers and the air freshener, he was smoking base
joints, you know, joints lined with cooked cocaine. So he was smoking base joints.
I didn't do cocaine or smoke cocaine. I don't like cocaine. I don't like what it does to people.
But I smoked weed. So I was like, "Can I hit that?" And he was like, "Well, you don't want to hit this, it has..."
And I smelled it. And I was like, "Oh, it has that shit in it." I was like, "I wish you wouldn't smoke that."
And he was like, "Oh, go get the air freshener, get my insurance papers," whatever.
So I went in the house and I got his stuff. I came back out. Phoebe Judge: Kim says she got back into the car.
Darnell wanted oral sex. She said no. Kim Dadou: And he had this motto like, "It's mine.
If you don't give it to me, I'm going to take it." And he meant it. And he was like, "Well, if you're not giving it to me, who are you giving it to?"
I'm like, "Come on, I'm not giving it to anybody. Stop. We're in the car in front of my mom's house.
Like come on, we're outside." And he got mad. He hit me, accused me of lying to him.
"Say it again, I'll hit you again." I told him, I said, "I haven't been with anyone else."
And he was like, "Lie to me again." Bam. I had to, I was like, "I haven't been with anyone else.
I'm not lying." He hit me again. And I tried to get out the door. We had a car, it was like 'our car.'
He had a car, I had a car. And then we had our car. And we were in our car. We were in the Fifth Avenue and it had power locks.
It was a big deal to have power locks on our car. And I couldn't get out the door because of the damn power locks.
[Crying.] And I turned and there was nothing to lift and I couldn't get out the door and he grabbed
me and he was like, "This is it, bitch. This is it." And he started choking me, and he pushed my head down, like down below the dash, but he
still had his hands around my neck. And he just kept saying, "This is it, bitch.
This is it." [Music comes in.] And his gun was under the seat. He always kept his gun under the seat.
And I grabbed it and I just wanted him to get off me. And the gun went off, just went [makes gun sound: brrrat].
And it stopped. And I mean the bucking, I thought the gun was misfiring. I had no idea what was going on.
Like, I thought it was going to blow up in my hand. I didn't know. And I'm struggling, and then he let go of me.
Phoebe Judge: Kim says she managed to get the car door open. She fell into a snowbank and scrambled up the yard to her mother's door.
Kim Dadou: And I heard him scream, "Bitch, get back here." And I thought, "Oh God, he's going to kill me."
Phoebe Judge: She ran into the house and locked herself in her room. Darnell drove away.
Kim Dadou: I thought to myself, "Oh my God, he's going to come back and kill me.
I can't stay here." And I left. I told my sister, "I got to go." He always told me you never pull a gun on somebody without killing them, or they'll
kill you. Phoebe Judge: Kim drove to the house of a friend Darnell didn't know. She said she stayed up all night watching the news.
[Music fades out.] Kim Dadou: For some reason, thinking that I was going to see something, or — I didn't
know if I had shot him, if I didn't shoot him, if he was looking for me. Now I'm wondering, are the police looking for me?
My mom's neighborhood's really, really quiet, really, really suburban. I don't know what's going on.
So I'm just at my friend's house, hiding. Phoebe Judge: The next night, on December 18th, Kim says she went back to her mother's
house. Kim Dadou: And when I walked in, my mom and my sister were sitting in the living room.
And when I walked in, they just looked at me and I was like, "What's going on?" And Wendy said, "Tell her.
Tell her." And my mom said, "You tell her." [Emotional.] And Wendy said, "Darnell's dead."
And I said, "What?" She said, "Darnell is dead." She said, "His family wants you to call them."
She said, "His sister wants you to call them." And I'm like, "Oh my God, what happened?"
And Wendy said, "They said he died in a car accident." [Music comes in.] Phoebe Judge: According to the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, on the morning of December
18th, police received a call from a woman who lived around the corner from Kim's mother.
A 1982 Chrysler had crashed into her living room sometime during the night. The woman said she'd heard a noise, but assumed her cat had knocked over a chair.
She didn't go downstairs. When police arrived, they found the car, but not the driver.
After hours of searching, they found Darnell Sanders' body frozen beneath a pile of snow.
The next morning officers showed up at Kim's mother's house. Kim Dadou: And they said, "Kim?"
And I said, "Yeah." They said, "You have a Fifth Avenue, blah, blah, blah." I said, "Yeah."
They said, "Well, it was involved in a car accident last night. We need you to come identify the car."
Phoebe Judge: When Kim got to the police station, she was informed that the medical examiner
discovered six bullet wounds in Darnell's stomach and chest. His death was not being investigated as a car accident, but as a homicide.
Kim Dadou: And I'm like, "Oh my God." I'm thinking in my head, "Oh my God." [Music fades out.]
Phoebe Judge: But you knew the gun had gone off inside the car. Kim Dadou: Yes, I did.
I mean, I've never shot anyone before, but in the movies or — you shoot somebody, they
fall down dead. They don't drive away screaming, "Bitch, get back here." They don't, they don't, they don't.
Phoebe Judge: Kim says the police questioned her for hours. And then without a lawyer, she gave an eight-page statement.
In the statement, which we got a copy of from the Monroe County Clerk, Kim told officers
that Darnell was crushing her throat and, "I made the decision to go for the gun.
And when I reached for it, it was there." And they charged you with Darnell's murder?
Kim Dadou: Murder. Yeah. Phoebe Judge: Kim told police officers, "I just don't know how or why this happened."
We reached out to Darnell Sanders' family, but never heard back. Kim was indicted on a second-degree murder charge.
She was 24 years old. An advocacy organization called the Battered Women's Defense Committee raised $15,000 to
post Kim's bail. The trial began September 14th, 1992. During opening statements, Assistant District Attorney Angela Reyes told the jury, "There'll
be no doubt in your minds that this defendant is guilty of murder." [Music comes in.]
Kim did not testify. She says her lawyer told her not to. On her behalf, he told the jury about the years of injuries and criminal complaints
she'd filed against Darnell. Protesters stood outside the courthouse with signs reading, "Bring Justice to Battered
Women, Free Kim Dadou." We spoke with the prosecutor, Angela Reyes, who told us the same thing she told the jury:
that Kim was the one harassing Darnell. The gun was never recovered. We also spoke with the judge in Kim's case, Patricia Marks, who told
us that the important thing to think about in a case like this is that the burden is
on the prosecution to convince the jury that Kim was not acting in self-defense.
And they were able to do that. Kim was found guilty of manslaughter in the first degree.
What was your sentence? [Music fades out.] Kim Dadou: Eight-and-a-third to 25. I was found not guilty of murder in the second degree — which is premeditated — because
it was not premeditated. So I was found not guilty of premeditated murder in the second degree, but I was found
guilty of man one. And that sentence carried eight-and-a-third to 25. And I'm looking at my lawyer and my head is spinning and the deputies are coming up behind
me. [Crying.] Phoebe Judge: So they took you right away. Kim Dadou: [Crying.] Yeah, they did.
And I didn't come home for 17 years. Phoebe Judge: Did you meet other women in prison who were there for similar reasons?
Kim Dadou: Oh God, yes. And we bond. They become your family. They become closer to you than family, they become your soulmates.
Because you have that one thing in common, and you can see it in their eyes. They're broken, they're hurt.
I was broken. Phoebe Judge: We don't have much data on how many domestic violence survivors are in prison
because of crimes relating to abuse. Two state-specific studies in California and New York found that most women incarcerated
for killing significant others had been abused by them — 67% in New York and 93% in California.
[Music comes in.] Kim says she went before the parole board five times and was denied every time.
And then in 2008, after 17 years, she went before the parole board a sixth time.
By then, she didn't want to tell her story anymore. Kim Dadou: I said, "I go home in a couple months on my conditional release date."
I said, "With all due respect, I don't want to talk about it anymore." And then I come home and all I do is talk about it.
[Laughs.] Phoebe Judge: She's now one of the primary victim advocates working to get a piece of
legislation passed in New York. It's called the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act.
Kim Dadou: The DVSJA is a bill that would give judges and DAs discretionary power when
sentencing and charging a woman who has committed a domestic violence crime. It would allow the judges to give alternatives to incarceration programs.
It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card. There's a whole list of criteria that a person must fall under before they would be eligible.
Phoebe Judge: What would have happened to you if this bill had been in place? Kim Dadou: I could have probably served less time, a lot less time, and came home and had
a family, maybe. I always wanted kids, but I spent every minute of my 30s in prison.
And I don't know, who knows, I might've been a trailblazer. Phoebe Judge: Kim moved back to Rochester after her release.
She got a job at a Tim Horton's coffee shop. Now she works at a nonprofit and last summer she got married.
How did you meet your wife? Tell me the story. Kim Dadou: That's my favorite story.
Phoebe Judge: While she was in jail, she met a woman named Annie Bell. [Music fades out.]
Kim Dadou: And my friend is like, "Oh, Bell, this is Kim. Kim, this is Bell." And Bell's like, "You're a cutie."
And I just remember rolling my eyes like, "Oh Lord, I don't need this right now."
And I said, "What are you guys playing?" And they said, "We're playing spades." You know, I was just being cordial.
And she said, "Can you play?" And I was like, "Can I play?" Now you're challenging my spade game.
You know, it's totally different subjects. So I was like, "Yeah, I can play." She said, "All right."
And she made the girl get up. Then she was like, "She's playing now." And I sat down and I started playing with her, and we were unbeatable.
And we became spade partners. And then she just wooed me. Phoebe Judge: Sometimes they were in the same prison.
And sometimes they were apart. When they weren't together, they would each call the same person on the outside so they
could talk. Kim remembers telling her sister to put the phones together so they could hear each other's
voices. Kim Dadou: And then she came home in '97 and she got off parole in '99. And she showed up on New Year's Day 2000.
And I didn't even know she was coming. She came up there with my sister, and I'm like, "Who is visiting me on New Year's Day?
Everybody I know is hungover and sleeping." [Music comes in.] And I looked in the visiting room and it was my sister.
And I was like, "Wow, that's cool." And then I seen her, and I was like, "Holy shit, she showed up.
She came after all these years." And she said, "I told you I'd be here as soon as I got off parole."
And she was there, and she's been there ever since. She's the most amazing person I've ever known.
Phoebe Judge: And she kept visiting all those years? Kim Dadou: Oh yeah. Every other Saturday.
But through it all, we always said to each other, "When we get home, we'll go out to
dinner and see what's what." And I said, "Okay, just don't love anybody else, okay?
Just don't love anybody else till I get home." [Music plays at full volume for a few seconds.]
Phoebe Judge: Criminal is produced by Lauren Spohrer, Nadia Wilson, and me. Audio mix by Rob Byers.
Alice Wilder is our intern. Special thanks to Natalie Patillo. Julienne Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal.
You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're on Facebook and Twitter, @CriminalShow.
Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best podcasts around.
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Kim Dadou says she wishes she had a nickel for every person who has asked why she didn’t leave her abusive boyfriend Darnell Sanders. The two dated for four years and Darnell Sanders was routinely violent. But in the middle of the night on December 17th, 1991, Kim Dadou’s entire life changed.

This episode contains descriptions of physical violence against women. It may not be suitable for everyone. Please use discretion.

Music in the episode “A Night in the Woods” by Jon Watts “You, yourself and the main character” by Komiku “Collecting Samples” by Blue Dot Sessions “Code 6” by Blue Dot Sessions “Grace” by Dana Boule “Base Camp” by Blue Dot Sessions “Algea Tender” by Blue Dot Sessions “An Uneven Lie” by Robin Allender

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode 63 originally published 3/17/2017 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-63-rochester-1991-3-17-2017

Brief Summary

Kim Dadou shares her abusive relationship with Darnell Sanders and the legal fallout after his death, advocating for domestic violence survivors.

Key points

Kim's First Encounter with Darnell. Kim recalls meeting Darnell in high school and their playful interactions.
The Turning Point. After a romantic relationship, Darnell's violent side emerges when Kim rejects his marriage proposal.
Darnell's Death. Kim learns of Darnell's death in a car accident, only to discover it was a homicide.
Kim's Trial. Kim faces trial for Darnell's murder, highlighting the complexities of domestic violence.
Advocacy for Change. Kim becomes a victim advocate, pushing for legislation to help domestic violence survivors.
Sister's Surprise Visit. After years apart, a sister shows up in the visiting room, bringing unexpected joy.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I thought this guy was really into me.

Kim reflects on her early relationship with Darnell.

2:52WatchDec 8, 2022

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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