Post Mortem Super Marathon | "48 Hours" Full Episodes | Forensic Files

[Music] Moscow will forever be known as a scene of one of the most tragic crimes in
American history there's still sort of a a Darkness whenever you talk to people it will be ever part of the
University's history and the town's history there are four very very important names in this case Kaylee
gonzalves Madison Mogan Zan kodal and Ethan chapen and if you're going to remember any
names from this case I ask that it be all four my name is Olivia Gonzalez and Kaye was my little
sister everybody's going to work and you look out the window and there's kids running down the street laughing and
you're just like how can you be out there playing my daughter's dead you know kayy gon Solis
is gone stop everything everybody in the whole world stop and everything just keeps
going my sister Zan kodal is one of the happiest funniest people I've ever met and I had the
awesome privilege of growing up with her and I still have a hard time coming to terms with the facts that did
happen bran cerg is accused of stabbing these four University of Idaho students in the preon hours on November 13th 2022
uh the murder weapon which was a knife has never been found this is type of survival knife Brian coburger did not
make his own plea the judge entered a plea for him of not guilty maximum penalties life in prison or the death
penalty due to the nature of the crimes the state of Idaho is seeking the death penalty he was there to kill he came in
with a kit I believe he had a kill K and you believe that everything right down to the Implement of Destruction this
large Marine knife that was all planned all planned was inhumane you wouldn't do
these type of things to any living creature let alone an innocent human being the star piece of evidence in the
prosecution case is the DNA that was found on the knife sheath that was left at the crime scene that there's so much
other evidence that's also pointing towards nobody else that we're aware of how was Brian cober's car spotted
leaving the scene why was his cell phone seen there 12 times including the morning after the offense prosecution
would like everyone to believe that it's an open and shut case but I think the facts they have
make the case more open than open and shut according to the defense there is no connection whatsoever between Brian
coburger and the victims and if there is no connection then there is no motive and if there is no motive then it
becomes very hard to make the case that he is the Killer and this is a graduate student not a trained assassin it's more
so about putting these pieces together because I know what the puzzle looks like at the end I have the box in front
of me but I'm missing so many pieces how did all of these pieces fall to create what I'm living in right now
where did where did this come from [Music] [Music] it was not the news Steve and Christy
gonzalves wanted to hear in August of 2023 just 6 weeks before the murder trial of Brian coburger was set to begin
he waved his right to a speedy trial sure you want to be absolutely they would have to wait indefinitely for
their day in court I was really hoping that um we could get this show on the road because
uh the not knowing it just it's Agony it's [Music] Agony Steve and Christie the parents of
Kaylee haven't left anything to chance after the judge issued a gag order to attorneys and law enforcement quote to
preserve the right to Affair trial they drilled down on their own investigation and are now sharing what they believe
believe that investigation found Steve says he believes transparency is the best path to Justice we're not going to
just sit back and cross our fingers and pray that we're going to get Justice it has been a long and painful
Journey for the families of kayy Galvis Maddie Mogan Zanna kodal and Ethan chapen the four four University of Idaho
students who were savagely murdered by a knife wielding a salent in the wee hours
of November 13th 2022 as they settled down to sleep in their off-campus house on King Road do
you ever dream of your sister yeah I've had some dreams of her there's times where I prayed and ask
God to see her another time and I did and just gives me some knowing that I know she's
[Music] okay Jasmine kotal who is speaking for the first time was a senior at Washington State University and lived
only 15 minutes away from her younger sister Zanna often mistaken as twins growing up she says they were best
friends she was always fun she was uplifting and she took any bad situation and turned it into a good one Jee what
did you love most about your daughter everything she cared about people she was a people person she sced
about her friends just as much as like her family for the first time in her life Zanna had fallen in love with
fellow student Ethan chapen a triplet who loved his siblings boats and working on a tulip farm the sweetest kid ever
they were just too happy people and they're just seeing the videos and photos of them you can just like tell
how happy they are they're just amazing together sadly they will now forever be linked in
death on Sunday morning November 13th zanna's friends started calling Jasmine saying something bad had happened on
King Road Jasmine rushed over to zanna's house and while you're driving that 8 n
miles over to the house house are you trying to reach your sister then mhm how many times did you call her a lot I
called her a lot called Ethan a lot her next call was to her father Jeffrey had been visiting Jasmine for Dad's weekend
and was on his way home so you answer the phone what do you hear I hear her kind of crying and just telling me to
get back to Moscow and meet me at Santa's house and you know my heart dra s instantly rised back down
there the house was cordoned off and swarming with investigators as soon as Jeffrey said he
was zanna's father he and Jasmine were escorted to the Moscow police department and Jasmine what does the officer say to
you and your father I I don't remember exactly just that four people passed away and that one was Anna
the worst day of your life just your worst nightmare just happened you know what do
you do you can't do a damn thing 100 miles away the gonzalves family also had been getting frantic
calls saying something bad had happened to their daughter kayy but no one knew what I just kept saying over and what do
I do what do we do what do we do finally at around 4: in the afternoon a deputy appeared at their door and we said
what's going on I can confirm your daughter's died passed away point he said there were four victims and we and
I said four and he said yes ma'am I said can you tell us if one of the victims was
Manny Mogan and he said yes ma'am Maddie Mogan Kaylee's best friend from childhood give us a sense of just
how close Kaylee and Maddie were in life I think that they had a very amazing relationship the epitome of true best
friends from very early I mean they were sisters through and through they were um completely
Inseparable as soon as the news hit Olivia the eldest of the five gonzalves children and her parents went into
detective mode we had zero details we just knew they were gone Olivia got into her sister's call log and frantically
started cold calling recent numbers she says a friend told her that Kaylee had been at the corner Club bar around 1:07
a.m. and later texted a ride share driver who Olivia managed to track down the ride share driver said around 145
Kaylee had texted him requesting a ride from the grub truck which is the local Mac and she's food truck to take her
back home to 1122 King and she had with her another female Olivia then uncovered
one of the most important leads in the case the ride share driver told her about a camera mounted on the grub truck
so I was able to look it up and um find Kaye on the video and I saw the girl that she was with was Maddie so at that
point I knew Kaye and Maddie were together they got into the car to go home together and alone the driver told
her the exact time Kaylee and Maddie were dropped off at their house on King Road 1:56 a.m. a timeline she says she
confirmed before the police I immediately took it to the police officers here's her phone information
here's the r share driver's name Olivia says Kaylee made a call to her boyfriend
at 2:56 a.m. but he didn't answer the gun solices believe Kaye fell asleep shortly after
according to the police affidavit Kaylee and Maddie were stabbed to death between
4: and 4:25 a.m. just as they had done since they were little girls they were sleeping in the same
bed those two best friends since little girls I don't think there's anything more terrifying than what they went
through I really don't the killer took four lives in a matter of minutes but he left behind two
surviving roommates one of whom would provide a key description of the Intruder he was dressed in black but
muscular build and very bushy eyebrows [Music] if there is one picture that speaks to
the Idaho student murders it is this six smiling college students blissfully unaware of the Carnage to come it's
staged in a way that is almost in a strange way ominously predicting investigative journalist
Howard bloom has written extensively on the student murders for Gren Carter's online magazine air mail he is now
writing a book on the case on the ends of the picture are the two survivors in the middle are are are the victims in
their huddled together Kaye with a beaming Maddie on her shoulders friends for life Ethan with his arm around Zanna
Young Love In Full Bloom a moment that should have been a memory of the idilic college Years would eternally be a
reminder of the gruesome murders that put them in their graves what makes it so tragic is they're forever preserved in
this moment they'll never be able to leave this moment hours after this photo was taken
the four friends would be murdered their deaths so violent even the house seemed
to be bleeding there's literally blood oozing out from the home uh you could see it on the exterior walls CBS News
consultant Brianna Fox is a former FBI agent and professor of criminology at the University of South Florida that's
how Bloody and gruesome the crime scene is according to the affidavit which outlines law enforcement's investigation
the bodies of Zanna and Ethan who is sleeping over were found in or near her bedroom on the second floor
the bodies of Kaylee and Maddie were on the third floor in the same single bed in Matty's room how did your daughter
die in that house what do you know we know the autopsy we know the means what is officially how she died she was
assaulted and stabbed several several times her death certificate is the ugliest disgusting
piece of paper that you will ever see in your life and every line of a horror show every line cuz there's causes of
death and then there's contributions to death Christie and Steve spoke to coroner Kathy mbot before the gag order
was issued and they say she told them how the two friends were positioned in the bed the bed was up against the wall
a headboard was touching the wall and the left side of the bed was touching the wall and we believed that Maddie was
on the outside and kayy was on the inside according to coroner mbit the Killer's first victim was Maddie says
Steve and then from Maddie he moved on to your daughter you believe she had awakened at that point yes yeah there's
evidence to show that she awakened and tried to get out of that situation the way the bed was set up is what she was
trapped she was trapped we know from the affidavit that cober's cell phone pinged
in the vicinity of the house 12 times prior to the murder Steve says before the gag order one of
the lead investigators told him they believe coburger had been scouting out the house you believe these visits were
like he was like on an intelligence Mission a scouting Mission looking at lifestyle patterns when they came and
went who came to the house methodical yeah he had to know when people were coming people were going it makes the
gonzaleses wonder if he'd ever gone inside the house I think that he at least had opened that door went in
tested the waters looked around Steve says the coroner told him the Killer's Rampage started on the third floor where
both Maddie and Kaye had their bedrooms Christie thinks he wasn't expecting to find the two friends together in the
same bed I do think that his plan went a I do think that you know he intended to
kill one and killed four Brianna FOX also believes Zanna and Ethan were collateral damage according to the
affidavit Zanna received a door Dash food delivery at 4 a.m. then went back to her room on the second floor it's
possible says Fox that Zanna still awake came face to face with the Killer and she sees somebody that she doesn't
expect and I don't think he was expecting to see her either one of the two surviving roommates Dylan mortensson
later told the police that she heard what she thought was crying coming from zanna's room she heard a male voice say
something to the effect it's okay I'm going to help you not something a killer would likely say to an intended target
says Fox he probably was trying to make a split-second decision do I run away do
I kill her what do I do and he decided to kill her at approximately 4:17 a.m. police say an outside security camera
less than 50 ft from zanna's room picked up distorted audio of what sounded like
voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud shortly after Dylan the surviving roommate whose bedroom was near zanna's
open the door according to the police affidavit when Dylan opens the door she saw a man dressed in black with a black
mask and she says he has bushy eyebrows those bushy eyebrows become very important when the police
are making their identification the man with the bushy eyebrows kept walking to the rear of the
house without harming Dylan why was Dylan not killed again there's no definitive answer he he didn't kill her
because he didn't see her he was sort of transfixed on getting out he didn't kill
her because he was satiated or or he was simply too depleted to kill again says Fox even stabbing somebody for a minute
and a half not only is that Overkill but it actually would become rather exhausting the police believe the murder
weapon which has not been found was a military style Kar knife similar to this one the details are disturbing this is
not a civilian knife it was actually meant to tear apart bone ligaments organs so this is a extremely brutal and
something that you would never expect a person to walk in and want to commit unless they took some pleasure out of
the brutality of it after seeing the Intruder Dylan the surviving roommate told investigators she locked herself in
her room it would be almost 8 hours before 911 was called causing an uproar on social media criticizing Dylan's
alleged inaction but Brianna fox says It's Not Unusual for people to freeze or be too afraid to
intervene she had no reason to you know know how to handle herself in that moment according to the affidavit the
male walked towards the backsliding glass door and presumably left the scene but committing murder and getting away
with it are two different things says Fox for an offender to get away with a crime a murder they have to bat a
thousand they have to be absolutely perfect they make One Singular mistake that's all it takes and that one
possible mistake in this case may have been the sheath to the kar knife one like this was found on the bed next to
Maddie Mogan it would lead investigators to the door of a man studying for a career in
criminology Brian coburger the alleged killer to see a timeline of the case go to 48 hours.com
[Music] [Music] day after day and week after week pass and there is no suspect that is arrested
what was that time like for you that was the worst for 47 days after the murders the families of Kaye Maddie
Zanna and Ethan and the country waited we do not have a suspect at this time and
wept and weighed in people of Idaho and those throughout our nation Who provided
information has been very impressive we've received over 19,000 tips then on December 30th 2022 Brian
coburger was arrested in albrightsville Pennsylvania at the time his attorney said coburger looked forward to being
exonerated what goes through your mind when you see the face of the alleged killer oh I wonder why who who is this
why you know never heard of the person before it still is confusing why at this point the families knew as much about
cerg as the public did a PhD candidate studying criminology just 10 miles away at Washington State University in
pman I remember thinking I only have a few minutes to look up this individual and
to try to get any credible information before things start getting wonky some of Olivia gonzales's online discoveries
of coburger made her uneasy he had made a few posts on Reddit in which he was conducting seems like a questionnaire to
uh people in prison or jail who had committed crimes how did you pick your victim or your target for 7 weeks the
families and the country were left wondering I think for this type of an investigation 47 days is actually quick
criminologist and CBS News consultant Brianna fox says the Moscow police kept things
moving starting with a video canvas which produced footage from those early morning hours showing a white car making
three passes by the girl's house starting around 3:30 a.m. less than an hour later
investigators say the killer struck they noticed that this car approached King Road left came back uh
almost did a uturn finally went there around 4:06 in the morning and that car then departed in about 25 minutes and
sped off multiple surveillance cameras then captured that white car as it traveled what appeared to be a less
direct route back to pulman Washington arriving around 530 a.m. that information helped
investigators identify the make and model of the vehicle and we're looking for a 2011 to a 2013 Hye Elantra
Washington State Police find the car parked outside graduate housing uh they get the license plate and they they get
Brian cober's name they then get the driver's license and they see the bushy eyebrows that in the eyes of one of the
Moscow detectives must be the eyebrows of the killer now armed with a warrant investigators retrieved cell tower data
from that morning which captured coburg's phone around 2:47 a.m. in pman when it suddenly stopped connecting to
the network according to the affidavit this was also around the time cameras caught a white Elantra leaving his
apartment complex there was indication that he turned off his cell phone which is something that a lot of people do
when they want to avoid law enforcement knowing their whereabouts his cell phone
signal was picked up again 2 hours later south of Moscow as it traveled back toward his apartment building the
affidavit described a deeper dive into cob Berger's phone history that revealed this was a familiar neighborhood to him
going back several months cell phone records indicated that he has traveled past and was very near the vicinity of
this crime scene on 12 separate occasions and Towers actually captured a 13th trip just hours after the murders
anecdotally a lot of killers they like revisiting the memory of the crime you know I won I was able to get away with
this and you guys won't catch me but they had one secret weapon to make their case they had the knife sheath and there
was a microscopic spot of DNA on this could they tie this DNA to coburger according to the affidavit the DNA was
found on the button snap of the sheath but when investigators ran it through the National Database there were no
matches it's unclear if Brian koberger knew law enforcement was watching when he left Washington in mid December
koberger and his father who had flown in from Pennsylvania drove back home together in his white Elantra cerg from
what I've heard tells the father that he's in trouble with his his job he's concerned enough about his son to want
to make the drive back with him on the 2500 mile Journey from Washington they are stopped twice for traffic
violations hello what's also interesting is cober's reaction to the police police
is this your car okay cool he's pretty calm and cool father and son made it home to
albrightsville Pennsylvania where Bloom says investigators initiated a stealth operation what they did is they sent a
team of Pennsylvania state troopers to cob Berger's family's house law enforcement recovered cober's father's
DNA from the trash outside their home which tested as a high probability it was the biological father of whoever
left DNA on the knife sheath so that was the Eureka moment which they decided they could get an arrest warrant at that
point they made the arrest of Brian coburger and they got a separate essentially search warrant for his DNA
and when investigators compared his DNA to the DNA on the knife sheath they say it was a statistical match at least 5.37
octillion times more more likely to be curers than anyone [Music] [Music] else where you sit today are you certain
that Brian Colberg is the killer with what you know I don't trust anybody or anything so I have to see it myself I
have to see everything as the months pass Steve and chrisy Gonzales remain a united front in
wanting justice but their weight has brought different perspectives your mind is still open to the potential of course
that it could have been someone else of course yep I go into that 100% yep of course that's not where you are you know
yeah that's fine I don't think there's any slam dunk criminologist Brianna fox said says with
the gag order in place any hint of C Burger's defense has come from court documents it seems that the defense is
alleging there was a rush to judgment law enforcement made an arrest too fast and they focus on their client too
quickly a defense filing did reveal cob Berger's Alibi for the night of the murders it simply stated Mr coburger was
out driving alone the defense is not necessarily having to prove that he's innocent they just have to raise out
both Fox and Howard Bloom think the defense can find ways to poke holes in the prosecution's case challenging some
of the key evidence presented in the affidavit including the cell phone location data and the white Elantra
there's other concerns such as whether Brian cober's car was accurately identified at the onset or if that was
revised after knowing what Brian coburger drove the cell phone data makes one suspicious of Burger but it's not
convincing it's not putting someone at someone's doorstep it's putting someone in someone's
neighborhood if you can raise doubts about the validity and the accuracy of the cell phone data I think you're
halfway there to getting the case against coburger either a hung jury or a knock guilty
verdict and there's more according to the defense that the there was no DNA or forensic evidence found from the crime
scene at the apartment car office or on Brian cober's person so they were basically alleging how could he have
committed such a brutal murder and yet have no evidence found on him of that after Consulting their own investigators
christe and Steve theorize that cerg likely brought what they call a kill kit with him what do you mean by a kill kit
I think he had a backpack clothes we don't know if it was covers pants we don't know a defense filing also claimed the
presence of other unidentified male DNA was found on the premises three separate
and distinct male DNA profiles were found from the crime scene two were inside the house one was outside on a
glove the defense wants to know who are these people and what role could they have played in this whole story so what
the defense is doing now is trying to look for other narratives that Mak sense Howard Bloom has written extensively
about this case including a piece on a possible alternative defense Theory involving drugs maybe someone had re
egged on a drug payment and this was a retribution of Vengeance for people not paying for drugs they had ordered I want
you guys to respond to one thing that's out there because speculation that somehow drugs were involved in this
attack that's just Hollywood nonsense I I just dismiss that because I I understand our society wants to believe
in some of these movies that they watch they don't have these crazy lives where they're crossing paths with people like
that that storyline of it being drugs gives people a reason to think why it happened because nobody knows why
and the reason I think it happened is because he wanted to that's what he wanted to do he wanted to commit a
murder Brian cober's defense attorneys argue there's a lack of evidence linking their client to the students the defense
is claiming that the defendant Brian cerg and the victims have absolutely no connection there's no motive in the
minutes after Brian cger was publicly named the Gonzales family went online they just told us the name and we immed
started Googling they believe they had found a possible connection through Instagram
and immediately took these screenshots from our investigation of the account it appeared to be the real Brian cerg
account among the people this account was following were Maddie Mogan and Kaylee gonzalves in addition to several
people with the name cerg but when we looked through those it appeared to have other family members that related to him
at first Steve who works in it was skeptical thinking someone created a fake account immediately following
cober's arrest but according to the family they uncovered more possible connections you would go to Maddie's
Instagram account and look at her pictures and he liked them Brian's name was under a lot of Madie pictures like
that picture and that picture and that picture and that picture so he was actively
looking at the Instagram accounts and the importance of that is what just digital evidence that this particular
account had some type of connection with the with the victims 48 Hours has not confirmed the
authenticity of this account which has since been deleted and the gag order prevents investigators from
[Music] commenting after dedicating months looking for their own answers the gonzolas say they are mentally prepared
for trial no matter when it begins I think he's done he's going to feel all of us just staring at the back of his
head and he's going to know that we are the gonzalas family and he knows what he
did to our daughter [Music] how could this happen two the group of kids that are doing everything the way
they're supposed to do to not known is what keeps you awake at night and it's every day all day it
never stops why why why there is no why it is as unexplainable today as it was the day Kaye gonzalves Madie Mogan
Zanna kotal and Ethan chapen were murdered I wish I wish we knew they were all four of them were just such a great
people and made such of an impact on the lives around them for now the families are left with
thoughts of what might have been Kaye Jade gonzalves has been recommended to receive a postumus bachelor's degree
her family will receive the diploma of the University of Idaho on May 13th 2023 exactly 6 months
from the day of the murders an occasion that would have been a cause for celebration graduation was instead
another reminder of what was lost seeing all those graduation photos it just they should be
here graduation is just one of many Milestones that will be missed she would have been my maid of
honor and I probably would been hers and it's like sad to have to go through those life moments without
her Jasmine kotal planned to work side by side with her sister Zanna creating their own marketing
business it's just not the same without her because she just brought like such a
crazy different energy than anybody else I've ever met Kaylee Galvis future was in sight
she had accepted a job in Austin working for an IT firm Kaylee not only pushed herself say her parents but push them we
lost that person that would force us to make new memories and force us to go and
take on something that seems a little daunting at first guys for the gon solices amid all the loss there was an
addition to the family when in February Olivia gave birth to a baby girl so her name is Theodora matd
Kay obviously mty Kay is after Maddie and Kaye and if one were to believe in signs there were says Olivia several
with Theodora MADD K's arrival in the hospital her room number 1113 was the same as the date of the
murders November 13th and eily the time of birth 4:21 a.m. is in the time frame that Kaylee
and Maddie are believed to have been killed to have birth and life and firsts first Giggles first walks that they
would be there somehow you know even if it's just in name's sake this is the gonzalas family M has
truly been a blessing in our lives I'm zanna's sister the families of Kaylee Maddie Zanna and Ethan have all searched
for ways sometimes together to cope with a horrible New Normal we all are always
going to be there for each other and it's just difficult we all we're all going through it in our own ways
for Ethan's parents Stacy and Jim chapen one way of coping involves creating a foundation Ethan's smile Ethan just had
a great smile I he smiled all the time raising money for scholarships by selling tulips planted in honor of Ethan
who had worked at a tulip farm so Ethan will live on through the foundation that's what motivates us to
to do this how do you live with this Jeff it's not [Music] easy just got to keep going you
know I think just like living our lives like Zanna would want us to I know that she would want us to talk about the life
that she lived and to be her voice right now she had a beautiful smile her and Maddie the memories that we share we
don't do it lightly because they are very private memories and sometimes it feels like I'm giving away a part of
them but I do it for the importance to realize how great of a loss it is because nothing's going to bring them
back [Music] CBS next Saturday 48 Hours brings you back-to-back episodes all summer long
next week Beachside homicide How could a single mom be executed in Cape Cod I was
knocked unconscious I couldn't protect her 48 Hours Crime Time double feature next Saturday on CBS and streaming on
Paramount [Music] plus welcome to postmortem a new Companion podcast to 48 hours so I'm
your host CBS News correspondent an marie green and each week we will take you behind the scenes with
correspondents and producers who know these stories best we go deeper into each episode explaining how the
reporting came together and their personal experiences with investigating these crimes now not only do I report
for 48 hours but I am personally a huge fan of the show so I'm really excited to
take a closer look at these cases with the 48 Hours team to hear their stories including you know brand new details and
we're talking about details that never made it into the episodes we're going to start though by answering some of your
biggest questions about the Idaho student murders this is a case that captivated and continues to Captivate
the country and joining me now is longtime 48 Hours correspondent Peter vanent and producer Liza Finley welcome
guys so good to have you guys here thanks amarie we're very happy to be here yeah this postmortem is is
something we dream about because so we have so much information particularly on this story that we can't get to in the
limited time so this is a wonderful opportunity to expand and and share with our our our viewers and listeners in
this case uh some new details before we get to our postmortem let's listen to an
overview of this week's episode it's been a long and painful Journey for the families of Kaylee
gonzalves Madison Mogan Zanna kodal and Ethan chapen the four University of Idaho students who were stabbed to death
in the pre-dawn hours of November 13th 2022 do you ever dream of your sister yeah I've had some dreams of
her just gives me some peace knowing that I know she's okay zanak kotal sister Jasmine and father Jeffrey are
speaking out for the first time since Santa's murder it just happened you know what do
you do you can't do a damn thing everybody's going to work and you look out the window and there's kids running
down the street laughing and you're just like how can you be out there playing my
daughter's dead on the night of the murders christe and Steve Gonzalez's daughter Kaylee was in the same bed as
her childhood friend Maddie Mogan the gonzalves say coroner Kathy mbot told them before a gag order the killer
attacked Maddie first then moved on to Kaye there's evidence to show that she awakened and tried to get out of that
situation the way the bed was set up is what she was trapped she was trapped a judge has entered a plea of not guilty
on Brian cober's behalf the murders of college students Ethan chapen Madison Mogan Zanna canot
and Kaylee Gonzales shocked the country in November of 20122 and really captured the
attention of the country I think part of it had to do with how that this is a time in your life
that is supposed to be one of the best times in your life and every photo that you saw of them was bursting with
life so the idea that those lives were cut short I think really shook a lot of people this is such a deeply personal
story uh perhaps the most that I've ever been involved with I'm a father of six six whove all gone to University I
attended Washington State University 8 miles from where this murder scene was located and when I went to school there
the idea of crime might be a kid stealing a candy bar from a store it was just simply unheard of so it's deeply
personal and and to connect with with the family the gonalves Christie and Steve and to speak with Jasmine and
Jeffrey kotal Jasmine is zanna's sister and Jeffrey her dad was the most profound interviews I think I I have
ever done and Liza was was in on this we were all so moved it was so emotional it
really was you know genuinely had tears in my eyes at times and as I watched this hour for the eighth time I still
get tears in my eyes because it's the sense of loss is profound and it is felt all over the world and you're right
anarie this time of Innocence the adventure of learning the Deep friendships formed at University and to
see it interrupted like this allegedly by a person they still don't have a motive for um just shocked everyone the
consolat they moved to the general area because they wanted a safe place to raise their kids yeah they it's talk
about ironic they lived in California it was getting kind of dangerous there they
felt they have five children so they went on a road trip and we were going to find America's best place to live the
safest place to raise our family and they settle on this beautiful beautiful little town in Idaho and lo and behold
just few hours away by car where where Kaylee went to school the worst crime imaginable happened and they regret
moving you know they go if only we hadn't moved there's also something else I wanted to mention at this point that
the gonzales's shared with us that we weren't able to to get into our broadcast their daughter Kaylee uh
gonzalves uh was a true crime ftic she watched all these shows she loved watching 48 hours
and she was she was concerned enough about crime that she would take notes her her mom said during the broadcast
and she came up with a plan of action hey if any of us are ever assaulted if we're ever in a crime situation like
we've seen on 48 hours in these other shows this is what we should do she actually typed it out and the family had
a nickname for her they called her the protector because of this and I talked to Christy about it can you imagine the
horror when then worst possible nightmare in this case it's not a cliche is occurring her best friend in life
Maddie killed alongside her and now the as salent is attacking her you know what
what of the ironies though with which you were talking about her philosophy after being such a true crime show
fanatic was separate I'll go you right you go left so one of us will survive and be able to
call the police and come to your rescue well those two young women were killed in the same
bed they didn't have a chance to separate she was trapped Kaye was trapped there's so many components of
this that sort of give you chills um you focus on the families which cannot be easy I can't imagine it
was easy to get them to talk we have a uh a a great um colleague out in California named Greg fiser who had uh
established a relationship with the family when we did our first hour uh earlier in in
2023 I did a a zoom interview with Steve gonzalves and felt as though we had really connected you know they said okay
you've got five minutes cuz he was going from reporter to reporter and we really
connected and we talked for 25 minutes and and when that story ran uh we understood that the family
appreciated how respectful we were there was no sensationalism this is 48 Hours this is CBS News and that connection
continued and so Greg fiser was talking with with the family out there and said Peter would really like to sit down and
have a longer conversation with you and because and Liza is really strong on on this they believe that transparency in
getting these words out is important for them to find Justice they agreed to the
interview there's a gag order and that was issued by the judge and it basically uh prohibits attorneys law enforcement
officials from speaking so Steve feels very strongly that that is not in the best best interest of Justice because
there have been so many rumors so much false information out there that he believes that real journalists real
officials should be dispelling these these false falsities so he he agreed to this very
long interview six seven hours yeah I heard Peter is legendary for his long interview he is famous for that in our
shop we're going to go two more hours on this um it was great it was they were extraordinary and once you know people
families everyone has to remember this families that have gone through this this kind of shocking trauma they don't
interview one another right that's not the way we talk all of us have lost someone in our families when that's
happened in my case I don't interview my sisters about how you're feeling in things and so sometimes when when a
person like myself comes into the picture it's such a catharsis for them there's so much they want to say what I
valued about it is their willingness to pull us into this moment in their life which is the most painful moment that
they will ever experience and it's going it's going it's not a moment it's their
life now um but we often you know sometimes when we tell these stories and 48 hours is an excellent job at being
compassionate and fair but it is an hour and a whole case and we don't sort of get a chance to slow slow down and be
reminded of the human victims that are still alive Anna sister Jasmine has never spoken before um her father
Jeffrey never spoken before um and in this case you you didn't pre-interview them you didn't get a chance to talk to
them ahead of time no not not at all not with the gun solices either but you know
I prefer I prefer that I prefer that we get to know each other in the course of this interview you always begin very
Gent you talk about the the the sister that she loved the daughter that he loved and
you work your way into the details and I find when we both are trying to sort each other out if you can make that
connection it becomes a a profound thing and they really open up Jasmine kotal Oh
sanna's Sister amazing she's just it gets me talking to right now about it she's the power of the grief inside her
to be able to expr some of that and Jeffrey in in the which you saw in the in the hour and and you'll see him in
other uh interviews in the future too he physically reacts sometimes his body movement is even more powerful than his
words when I you know when you talk about you know when they heard the words from police that their their his
daughter her sister that she was dead oh my God how it hits him and that was such
genuine so genuine um when I was getting ready to watch the hour I was sort of preparing myself for grief I thought I
will be so saddened by this but instead I found myself impressed with their strength
their power there was sort of a weight to that grief it does that make any sense absolutely
absolutely it becomes you know for for for those of us who work on these stories uh we do so many of them and
they're all so horrendous and there are those moments where you're sitting across from somebody or looking at them
in the edit room and you go how real this is and that was so real these these families you know it's a it's it's
heartbreaking the gon Solis is you know is as loving a family as you will ever meet and right away
they they started digging in and as Steve has said we were not going to sit back and just wait for justice and when
you realize what his daughter Olivia accomplished in her deep dive which we'll get into but they they moved ahead
instantly they channeled that grief into action so let's talk about a little bit
the incredible amount of investigating that the families did especially uh kayle's sister Olivia uh she found the
ride chair driver who dropped Kaylee off at the home that at night something that
she says even law enforcement had not discovered I want to play a little sound Olivia got into her sister's call log
and frantically started cold calling recent numbers she says a friend told her that Kaylee had been at the corner
Club bar around 1:07 a.m. and later texted a ride share driver who Olivia managed to track down the r chair driers
said around 1:45 Kaylee had texted him requesting a ride from the grub truck which is the
local mac and cheese food truck to take her back home to 1122 King and she had with her another female Olivia then
uncovered one of the most important leads in the case the ride share driver told her about a camera mounted on the
grub truck so I was able to look it up and um find Kaye on the video and I saw the girl that she was with was Maddie so
at that point I knew Kaye and Maddie were together they got into the car to go home together and
alone the driver told her the exact time Kaylee and Maddie were dropped off at their house on King Road 1:56 a.m. a
timeline she says she confirmed before the police I immediately took it to the police officers here's her phone
information here's the ride share driver's name you know what's interesting about that right there is
that a the police had the wrong time when they returned home they by 11 minutes so she was able to put that
timeline on track which which is sort of you know a domino effect yeah they get the right time they get home they get
this they get that they get that and she was able to correct that right off the bat which got them mobilized and moving
in the right direction there is still so much to get into here so when we get back we're going to talk about Brian
cober's trial what the defense might say to poke holes in the case new evidence the prosecution might present and a
possible link yeah a link between cobber and the victims that the gonzaleses think that they've discovered on
Instagram stick [Music] around all right welcome back everyone the trial of Brian koberger had been set
for October 2nd of 2023 but it was postponed because he waved his right to a speedy trial so the
question is what do we think we can expect once this kicks off Liza as we know there's a dir of information
because of this gag order but the defense has hinted at what its case will be in a court filing they have come out
and saying essentially what they're going to challenge and in the prosecution's case they're going to
challenge one the collection of the DNA there were uh three male other DNA samples found at the scene two inside
the house one and glove outside they still don't know who those belong to and the defense wants to know why they say
there's no connection none at all between coburger and any of the four victims in that house and if there's no
connection there's no motive why would he have done something like this and then to me one of the most
intriguing ones if it's true we don't know any of this because we don't it hasn't been litigated in in in ch hasn't
been argued in in court they claim that there's absolutely now mind you this is one of the bloodiest crime scenes ever I
mean four people slaughtered with a a military St we saw the blood on outside of the house and it's you probably went
back and forth as to whether or not you should show that but I think it really sort of gave you an idea of of what went
on in yeah and and the family told us they want the world to know the this is the word they use the ferocity of these
murders it's important uh the savagery that went went into this right and as Peter said that house was literally
bleeding if the house could talk what would it say that's a wonderful question but so back to this intriguing uh
statement that the defense has put out there they say there's this bloody crime scene we know how easily it is to get a
hair or a speck of blood they say there's absolutely no DNA evidence of anyone from that house or that house in
his apartment in his car on his person and if that's true that is pretty intriguing so let's talk about a receipt
from Walmart and a Dicky's tag that was found at his apartment though we don't know what items were listed on the
receipt what does the gala family think this discovery really means the family has a has a u a theory they believe that
that he brought what what they call a kill kit that he had a bag that had a change of clothes what they're calling
it what they're calling it and they said that um and we did do not have this in did not have time for this in the hour
but that during the the course of the search warrant that was done at C Berger's house they have a receipt and
that the receipt according to the gonzalves family is in evidence right now and it may suggest that he bought a
clothing that perhaps that he wore during the course of this murder is what they're suggesting and that that
clothing was not found at his apartment after when when the search was done um but even so as Liza said because we have
done so many of these stories the notion you know when you're using a knife for for instance and there's called castaway
blood you know as you raise it up and then back down the Hair Skin blood the notion that nothing at all was found in
that car nothing at all is is really quite extraordinary and they will the defense is going to be playing that up
and remember they say about his Alibi for that night Brian cob Bergers yeah he admits he was out driving late that
night he was driving around that's what he says MH that would explain the the cell phone in the vicinity and also
seeing that car on the you know surveillance cameras and among the things of course they're going to talk
about in in the prosecution of this case was the 12 visits prior to the murders in that neighborhood but also there was
a 13th visit the day of the murder once it became publicized because this occurred you know in the early early
morning hours well later that day prosecutors say that cobber to the affidavit his car was in that area again
but remember he's studying criminology and I'm sure he their people would argue yes he was fascinated by this horrible
crime and as a criminologist uh he he drove over as many people did into that area to see
what was going on but then there's always the theory that the criminal returns to the scene of the crime
because they want to see what's going on and they want to sort of get the last laugh haha I got away with this look
look at everybody running around look at everybody right yeah well one theory that is out there that the Gonzales
family has come to believe is the notion that Brian coburger may have been inside
that house prior to the day of the murders and they based that on the fact that the coroner in the case told them
that the as salent entered the house and the first people that were attacked were
on the third floor of the house there were others on the second floor and that suggested to the gonzalves that the
killer knew to go to the third floor how would he know that if he hadn't been in
the house before so this is the fam's filling in the blanks though this is some information trying to explain it
right that is what that we have not had any investigator tell us this of course there's this gag order and we have not
been able to verify that with any investigator because of the gag order but the gonalves is
uh Mom and Dad Christie and Steve believe that he may have been in that house prior to the murders when you
really think about this whole thing how does this person in this house that has three floors know where to go and how to
do it and kill so so rapidly as one of our people said he's a student he's not an assassin right but it seemed like he
was so efficient which is I think one of the reasons why the the cons solices believe he had to know where he was
going when he got in there he had to know who he was after and what he planned to Doh now Christie gonal says
she thinks he went in to kill one but he killed four so that he was caught off guard by
the fact that there were two people in the first bedroom exactly and there was also the bit about kayle's dog right uh
Kaylee slept with that dog every night uh and uh that was just that was their routine and when officials uh got to the
house uh discovered the uh that horrible scene the dog was in a separate bedroom
by itself and so that was just that just raised questions with the gonzales's that um did he know there was a dog had
he seen a dog in a visit had he actually even maybe given the dog a treat where it wouldn't bark at him and did he put
the dog in that room it's just something that the gonzaleses uh have focused on and raised
with us so we've been talking a lot about the different theories about how coburger may have committed these
murders but what is also new in this hour is the Gonzales has discovered what they think is a possible connection
between him and the victims so the the the the gonzalves family heard the name Brian coburger Olivia Googles his name
and they end up finding this Instagram account that the family uh believes was a genuine one I want to play a little
sound from the hour about the connection that the family feels might be there you
would go to Maddie's Instagram account and look at her pictures and he liked them Brian's name was under a lot of
Maddie's pictures like that picture and that picture and that picture and that picture so he was
actively looking at the Instagram accounts and the importance of that is what just digital evidence that this
particular account had some type of connection with the with the victims and if that's true that's huge because what
it does is it establishes a relationship a connection between coburger and the victims at least two of the victims yeah
and the defense is saying there's no connection so which is true that will be a very important point to be made at
trial as as been said by one of our experts in the hour if there's no connection there's no motive everyone
who watches 48 Hours who's listening to this right now knows you don't have to have a motive prosecutors will tell you
all the time you don't have to and serial killers you know Ted Bundy didn't have to have a motive for each of his
killings he just had a satisfaction in in killing someone and the gonzalves has believe that that uh coburger who again
is accused of this not convicted of anything thing as as yet of course that he did this in their opinion simply to
kill to murder to experience that rush they do it for pleasure that's one one of the theories by our
criminologist expert who said that a crime like this seems to be done by somebody the viciousness of it uh by
somebody who takes pleasure in it um or has a sense of arousal from it mhm did you reach out to the cobber family yes
we've done that many times and um we're still hoping that they will change their
mind and and talk about Brian um and we hope that happens what I'm hearing uh is
that the coburger family does not believe he did it but there there is something very very interesting that
Steve consal this uh was very clear about that he's going into this trial with an open mind that he
he thinks they think that it looks like coburger did it however maybe he didn't and they have H an open mind about that
well Steve has an open mind about that I was surprised by that because that is typically not something that you hear um
after someone's been arrested usually families of the victims are convinced usually that you know that's the right
guy yeah yeah and uh he has an open mind and we as journalists also have to have
an open mind yeah uh because the the facts of the case are being held so tightly so closely there's a lot we
don't know and we have to remember that and uh that's not that was another challenge in doing this hour I think
right Peter yeah and uh absolutely and cob Berger has said through an attorney when he was arrested in Pennsylvania he
looks forward to his exoneration there were others though that you reached out to that also didn't want to talk uh
Maddie mogan's family her parents they did not speak to you for this episode mattity
Mogan um Maddie was a only child of of of her parents and the they have spoken of course at these Memorial uh get
togethers and things but it is so devastating and you look at her face you look at Maddie's face and you see this
this bright and she's intelligent this big-hearted woman with everything in front of her uh and they invested
everything and all their love and wisdom in this one child and that child is taken from them under these
circumstances um we understand Ethan Chapin's family um who obviously are suffering enormous loss they have chosen
to to not do an interview with uh 48 hours for this perhaps one day you know the want to talk but we completely
understand uh that they don't want to and and of course we respect that well what a moving episode for the
first one of this season of 48 hours and for the first postmortem podcast I really want to thank you Peter and lies
up for being here thank you and Mar it's our honor to tell this story it's so profound absolutely it is it's touched
all of us thank you em be sure to join us next Tuesday for another postmortem watch 48 hours Saturdays 109 Central on
CBS and also streaming on Paramount plus and be sure to follow 48 Hours wherever
you get your podcast you can also listen ad free on the Amazon music or wonder app
[Music] [Music] I'll wake up every single day and I cry and I miss her it's so frustrating because you just
you look back and you you wish you did more maybe my sister was scared to go to the law because her husband was a police
officer Jones County District Attorney's office I believe Seth peralt was an individual
that had a lot of people fooled hi Mone he doesn't want to say hi I think he hid behind a badge and wore a mask
every day nice house nice car law enforcement but behind that door to that house he was pretty abusive stop the car
no let's not let's tell truth stop the car no maybe she was scared to get out it's February 3rd 2020 set the scene
for me what happened I'm sitting at my desk in my office that would see you and the phone rings and it's the police
chief he said I got Seth peralt on the phone he's told me his wife killed herself and I knew that we need to get
there and get this man investigated and do it right describe what you saw when you got
to the scene Seth paral on the front steps he's sitting there hands holding over his face I ask her to go inside
search the house and he gave consent for that had you ever seen a suicide that looked like that I never seen anything
like that her body is flat on the back her legs are almost together and her arms
are tucked against her side with her hands cut this wasn't right he's worked a lot of cases he told me he said the
scene is not right there's something not adding up and the more we investigated the otter and Guy obviously we have a
death investigation here I asked him would he come downtown to talk to us further I don't know how this happened
he said that they were in bed and they were arguing all I know is my wife was upset she hooked at me and said I can't
do it no more he loved her she was his world he never done anything to harm her ever my wife looked at me and executed
herself and if you look at the legistics of it you're going to see that I had nothing to do with
it we all called Sheriff SS that night and said we know our sister didn't do this we know she didn't take her own
life that he had something to do with this while looking your face as as a law enforcement officer I did not do I had
nothing to do with it 7 months later the medical examiner report comes out and what does it say
suicide well I was astounded Dr derile is a renowned medical examiner so her certification of
suicide we thought was basically open shot you have to remember she works for the state I'm Justin Kenny an attorney
for Seth peralt it all came down to the forensics could the state actually prove
that Seth had pulled the trigger and shot his wife in the head [Music] [Music] just an hour and a half after Seth peral
said his 44-year-old wife Amanda shot herself right in front of him he was struggling to tell his story I'm in
shock my wife of eight years that I love more than anything in this world I don't
know anywh to start sir I've lost everything in my life 44-year-old peral then a police
officer for the city of Eatenton Georgia told the county shareff Howard Sills that his wife Amanda had shot herself in
the head what did he say happened he said that they were in bed and they were arguing and then all of a sudden she
just produced the gun out of thin air and executed herself I just sat there watch my wife execute herself in all my
years of questioning anybody for suicide I have never heard anybody use the term
executed I knew she hunen I knew that he was lying from the very beginning Angie
and Alicia Johnson say they had questions about what happened to their sister Amanda we knew better we knew our
sister Amanda Lov life she wouldn't put us through this about 8 years earlier in the fall
of 2011 a recently divorced Amanda met Seth peral online I remember being kind of excited about it he treated her
differently from some of the past relationships she had been in where you know she wasn't respected Seth battling
cancer and unemployed at the time seemed to fall for Amanda fast and hard and they moved in fairly quick like he had
her move in within 6 months of the meeting Seth was living an hour away with his mother who was caring for him
but Angie says Amanda would quickly take over the role of Seth's caretaker AK when she moved out there he didn't want
her to work they say Seth's parents were paying all of the couple's bills and helping with expenses for Seth's
daughter from a previous relationship so Seth was basically dependent on his family very much very much and Amanda
was dependent on Seth for the longest time like he wouldn't let her have any kind of phone cell phone or anything
like that it would be his phone or a landline she didn't even have a car to drive he monitored her constant
as time went on Alicia and Angie say they saw less and less of their sister he kept us from being able to see her so
she didn't come to like any of our Christmas events or like any of our events because she had to host for his
family and cook for all of them Amanda lived with Seth for 5 years then on June 23rd
2017 the couple surprised everyone when they quietly went to the local courthouse and got
married Angie and Alicia believe the only reason Seth married their sister was to help him get custody of his
daughter that's why I feel like he asked her to marry him Seth's custody battle had been going on for almost exactly a
year at that point do you think Seth Maring Amanda helped him gain custody absolutely set's attorney Justin Kenny
if Amanda was going to be president in his daughter's life they had to get married I think that was one of the
Paramount issues for him to gain custody Kenny says Seth did love Amanda and his
daughter and was just trying to do what he thought was best for everyone this was a guy that doed on his daughter he
was a family man he would do on his wife I just thought he was a stand-up individual a few months after Amanda and
Seth were married he was granted custody of his daughter a little over a year later he was hired by the Edenton police
department and his father bought him this house near Lake a con she loved their new home this should have been
everything she hoped for yeah it was you know except for the relationship Alicia and Angie say they
didn't know just how bad things had gotten but we're hearing more and more stories of fighting fueled my alcohol
I've heard stories and interviews that you know when they were sober they were loving toward one another but it's when
alcohol came into the mix that's when it became toxic a little over a year after joining
the police force Seth fell down some stairs at the couple's home and had to go on medical leave now along with the
alcohol there were pain pills and the sisters say the fighting seemed to be escalating you could hear it like on
phone calls his tone and demeanor around her I would ask you want me to call 911
can I call 911 she would tell you no no don't call you know we've just been drinking we'll be everything will be
okay later on maybe she knew her situation would become even worse you know then things did get
worse on January 28 2020 just days before her death Amanda called 911 sh off you help yes thank you she
called me she had barricaded herself and the back bedroom it's my husband and he's putting his hands on me she ended
up having to run next door he locked me out of the house and I'm just trying to get my things out of the house please
she's at the neighbor's house right now another Sheriff's dispatcher was alerted
and she said her husband is an officer with the Eden Police Department that second dispatcher said he knew Seth
foral and said he had a reputation I ain't supposed to know this but he's been out of work with his bag and
apparently he's over there whipping up on her ass Seth made local headlines when he
was arrested on charges of simple battery and Family Violence she told me would I come get her the next morning
and I told her yes to make sure to pack everything have it ready instead Amanda decided to attend
Seth's bond hearing when the judge agreed to release Seth on bail he asked Amanda if she wanted a staya away order
added Amanda said no and then let Seth come home cuz she was scared she knew he was mad she knew that it was public that
he had been arrested he's a police officer you know I have to bring him home and make this right I talked to her
the day he got out and I said how are things and she said he's been unusually nice Alicia says she doubted Seth's new
attitude and felt that underneath he must be seething knowing that if he was convicted on abuse charges he was in
danger of losing custody of his daughter and his job he knew he was going to embarrass his family and he had already
put himself up here on this pedestal like he was King and then to be humiliated in front of people I think it
made him very angry Alicia says Amanda was terrified and looking for a way out we were all on
a chain message and we were tell her just get out divorce him tell his father that you don't want anything but a
vehicle and she said I'm not trying to get killed just 5 days later Amanda was dead
[Music] Sheriff Howard Sills says that from the very start of his investigation into the
death of Amanda peralt he wasn't buying her husband's story I knew something wrong the day I walked in the
house for starters the position of Amanda's body depicted in this 48 Hours animation based on the crime scene
photos left s certain that Amanda could not have shot herself okay this was the actual gun
also of concern to sils was the way this Smith and Wesson 380 which belonged to Seth was found lying next to Amanda's
body with its magazine ejected the magazine it was near her right side and the pistol itself was way down
here below left foot what made the ejected magazine even more Curious says Sills is the fact that
there was a bullet found inside the gun's chamber it's a semi-automatic gun so when it fires the slide comes back
the spent cartridge Cas is ejected and it picks up the next round because of that bullet in the chamber the magazine
had to be ejected after the gun was fired says Sills and unless the gun is defective the only way to eject the
magazine is to push this button now I don't do this at home but when you do this how you going to get your hand your
second hand around there to do it there was also no blood on Amanda's hands or the long sleeves of her shirt and
something else caught the sheriff's eye in the middle of the closet on the floor
was a damp green towel somebody had dried off with it no doubt about that one of the first deputies on the scene
said Seth smelled like shampoo also alarming the bedroom was littered with 20 miniature bottles of Fireball whiskey
all of them empty sill says he didn't have the manpower to process the scene so he
called in Agents from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation while they collected physical evidence and Amanda's body was
transported to the state medical examiner Sills focused on Seth he came in and sat right in this blue Lea chair
Seth spoke to sills in his office for over an hour without an attorney present I'm not going to lie to you I have no
reason to lie to you I wanted to know what had happened that day how did the magazine get out of the gun how did the
gun get where it was did you touch that gun today the 380 yeah how me it's been no today no sir how
does her body get into that position no answer cuz he never touched her no never
touched her but s says that didn't make any sense so he kept pressing and then Seth changed his story how are
you maybe I I don't know I probably did touch her I was probably hugging the out
her and I was probably like I'm so like honey what the hell's going on Sheriff Sills says Seth tried several times to
deflect questions with his badge I take pride in being a good law enforcement agent and I can't remember how many
times he looked me in the eye and said I'm a good police officer I'm I'm a good officer I'm a good police officer I'm a
good police officer I'm a good officer I'm a good police officer Amanda he said also knew what a good cop he was and how
assault charges would ruin both their lives she hated to see my reputation destroyed on the news because she knows
what a good police officer right and she was so worried I lose my daughter she wanted to come down here and tell
you that it was a liot Seth insisted that Amanda had lied the day she called 911 and felt so bad about it that she
wanted to confess to perjury he said that she had written something that she intended to bring to me recanting what
she had told the deputies and he told me where it was this handwritten letter was
found in Amanda's nightstand it reads in part I Amanda pero would like to retract
my statement my husband never put his hands on me ever I feel horrible for the humiliation I put my husband and my
family through I am willing to take any punishment I may deserve for what I have
done I don't deny she wrote it but look at the penmanship there's not the slightest error of any
kind what we've got here is a inexperienced police officer dictating what's to be written like Sills Amanda's
sisters are certain Seth was behind the letter she wrote it but she was coached I think what he was telling her I need
you to write this to get me out of trouble but Seth told s he was not about to let Amanda confess
to lying to authorities I knew if she came down here it was a false statement in a felony I knew it but according to
Seth Amanda couldn't take the guilt anymore so she put his gun to her head and pulled the trigger she looked at
me and said I'm sorry I'm sorry I put you through this boo I couldn't even say a word Shar
it was done Seth tried to convince sils that Amanda killed herself because her call to 911 had potentially ruined their
lives but the sheriff didn't see that as a reason for suicide instead he saw a motive for
murder believing that Amanda would never take her own life this made sense to her
sisters as well he had to make it look like she took her life so that he could be cleared of all this
wrongdoing Sheriff sils says he was convinced that Seth baral was somehow involved in his wife's death but that
day he felt he didn't have enough to arrest him I wanted to see if I could get some more
evidence and I did one of the clues that convinced Sheriff's Sals that Seth peralt wasn't
telling the truth were his actions just 20 minutes before he reported his wife Amanda was
dead that's when s's Deputy Terell abery arrived at his front door trying to deliver paper work on an upcoming case
they had one of those video doorbell things and I rang that the scene was captured in this
video I expected him to answer the door and I expected to hand him his copy of the
subpoena I mean you're a policeman you know how this works abery says he could tell someone
was home and what'd you hear I heard footsteps or footfalls heavy ones I'm announcing myself who I am what it is I
even turned my back to the door I don't care if you're in your underwear just answer the door and take the
paper he waited seven minutes and then left subpoena still in hand in my heart I believe that Amanda peralt had already
been shot when abery rang the doorbell I think he was concerned that somebody heard the gunshot and that's why he
didn't go to the door district attorney Wright Barksdale believed Seth was trying to figure out
what to do next think about this he's in the process of staging this scene and he
hears the doorbell ring can you imagine what was going through his mind but attorney Justin Kenny says that is not
what happened why didn't they come to the door when Deputy abery rang that Bell fear of what he's bringing Seth is
afraid that his ex is about to serve him with custody modification paperwork what
does that say happened after that so believe it there is a heated discussion that takes place he lays down diffuse a
situation he lays down to take a nap he awoke to Amanda mumbling something Whispering something and her
pulling the trigger and and shooting herself Kenny points out that Amanda was impaired by alcohol three times the
legal limit when tested by the medical examiner that and the escalating tension in her marriage became a deadly
combination the nice house the daughter the Financial Security all of this was crumbling around Amanda and then you
tack on a23 blood alcohol content she thought that that was the only way to to fix it to to end it she was really drunk
absolutely maybe she accidentally shot the gun how'd she accidentally get the magazine out of it how'd she
accidentally get posed as she was Sills was also very troubled because Seth didn't call 911 when his wife
allegedly shot herself instead cor called his boss the Eatenton chief of police on his cell phone 48 Hours made
several unsuccessful attempts to reach the former Chief for comment obviously we're not going to
have a recording of that and they have at least a 20 minute conversation before I'm
called hoping the peral's nebor neigh had heard something the day Amanda died Sills had Deputy abery go back to the
paroled house to question them what he learned made SS even more suspicious about Seth's involvement in Amanda's
death we found out that there had been a true pattern of domestic violence for years and years neighbors said the
couple could be heard fighting nearly every day and in their eyes Seth was almost always the aggressor they told
stories about a physical altercation between Seth and Amanda where he actually grabbed her by the back of the
hair and pulled her down and pushed her into the driveway one neighbor told abery that he would often stand by in
case things got really violent he talked about how at times he would just stand in the yard and just wait to see if he
needed to call 911 because it was so violent over there another neighbor said that Amanda had twice made this chilling
comment that if she were to wind up dead that peral is the one that did it and she made this neighbor promise that she
would insist that her death be investigated as homicide did anyone call the police no why not well one of the
answers was that well we were scared to call because he was the police it's hurtful it's hurtful and
this is why I wanted to do this show is to make sure that people know to speak up the day Amanda
died the neighbor said they didn't hear a thing the only witness to what happened with Seth peral and Sills was
sure he couldn't trust him after the interview in his office according to Seth they take the child to
school they come back home and they go nowhere at all other than down the street to the convenience store well
that didn't happen he lied SS says the proof was on this surveillance camera footage of the
couple found 12 miles away at this drive-thru liquor store where Amanda bought those 20 miniature bottles of
Fireball whiskey she drives up this Drive-In window right there's the camera that catches the truck I see it
simultaneously Seth was captured on a camera next door at this convenience store you see him walk and he actually
comes down I believe it's this aisle and he walks and he gets something to drink this video says Barksdale would
become a crucial piece of evidence not because of what was purchased but because of what Seth was wearing this
Pink Floyd t-shirt these black athletic pants nearly 4 hours later when sheriff's
deputies arrived at the peral home to investigate Amanda's death Seth was wearing something else when we get there
he is dressed in shorts and a dark t-shirt and the clothing Seth was wearing in the video we found those in
the washing machine the clothing was dry and had clearly not been laundered but there was that Deputy who
had reported that Seth smelled freshly washed and there was that damp towel that was found on the closet floor Seth
says he took a bath Seth's attorney Justin Kenny says Seth did wash up at some point after you take a bath you're
going to change clothes there was no evidence that the washing machine had actually been turned on it looked like
the washing machine was being used as a a laundry basket only a tiny Speck of blood was
found on the backside of peral's pants and a trace amount of gunpowder residue was found on his left hand when tested
they did it 3 hours later after potential contamination for being the police station Amanda's hands were never
tested and the gun was never dusted for fingerprints but Sills felt he now had enough evidence to make an arrest just
two days after Amanda's shooting now former Edenton police officer Seth peral was taken into custody Sheriff SS called
me and let me know that they were going to arrest him for her murder and I my whole family just was so relieved and
and happy that that she was getting Justice yes but before a grand jury could hear
the evidence and decide if there was enough to go to trial Co covid shut down the
courts Seth would sit in this jail for nearly 9 months until that autopsy report was released by the medical
examiner declaring Amanda's death a suicide her decision was based primarily on the lack of gunpowder around the
wound which meant the gun would have to have been right up against Amanda's head
when it went off and there were no signs of a struggle nobody is just going to allow somebody to put a gun to their
head and pull the trigger without putting up some sort of fight first thing I just called the da I said you
know you not going believe this did you think maybe you made a mistake absolutely not we going to take every
bit of the evidence and try to piece this thing together but Justin Kenny did think the prosecution was making a
mistake and that the autopsy report was all the evidence needed to defend Seth peral I mean it was it seemed pretty
open shot to [Music] me it was November 3rd 2020 and Seth peral still unindicted had been in jail
for nearly 9 months when Co restrictions finally eased a grand jury was set to decide if there was enough evidence
against him to go to trial and you know the first thing I put up for that grand jury to see the crime scene pictures no
ma'am the autopsy report that said suicide ladies and gentlemen the State Crime Lab medical examiner says this was
a suicide now I'm going to show you the evidence I found members of the grand jury did the crime scene photos and
heard evidence of domestic abuse and quickly decided that despite the medical examiner report Seth peral should face a
jury of his peers what were the charges malice murder felony murder and aggravated assault Perot pled not guilty
to all charges at his trial in February of 2022 he decided not to testify leaving
defense attorney Justin Ken to tell his story I think there was a complete absence of sufficient evidence that Seth
killed his wife the prosecution showed a jury of eight women and four men the crime scene photos including the way
Amanda's body and the gun were found they also heard testimony from that sheriff's deputy who thought Seth
smelled freshly showered they watched the footage of Deputy abery at the peral's front door and listened to all
60 Minutes of herold's interview with Sheriff Sills I don't know how this happened district attorney Barksdale
says that some of the most compelling evidence was found on Amanda's cell phone like this video she recorded 7
months prior to her death it's sad it's sad because you know what I married you and I'm not going to I'm J you're done
I'm done Amanda's sisters were seeing the video for the first time it made me angry I want to have a good weekend you
burn that up when you try to put that phone in my face what phone in your face oh right there oh your your vide tape
yeah because you're being I'm going to show you tomorrow you didn't videotape all the you when you hit me and smack
hit you you [ __ ] choke me a Time the video was problematic but it it doesn't show everything that took place Seth
also states that she had acted violently toward him as well he doesn't want to say hi there was no evidence of Seth
having been abused introduced at trial but Amanda's phone also contained photos of her with bruises a black eye and a
split lip along with texts like this one to her sisters Seth just choked me till
I nearly passed out busted my lip wide open I was scared that um one of them might get hurt this is Seth's then
8-year-old daughter being interviewed by a child psychologist remember she was a
witness to what happened the day Amanda called 911 they were cussing at each other Miss Amanda was cussing too but
she didn't touch Daddy at all Daddy was like touching her nose like this like get out of my house right now the jury
was shown most of the interview um she was on the floor like this trying to get her stuff then all of a sudden Daddy
just started grabbing her arms and Daddy just pushed her over the laundry table and then um open the door and pushed her
out the door while her father spent the night in jail she said Amanda begged her
not to tell anyone what happened or there could be deadly consequences Amanda tells her that night if your
daddy loses custody of you he's going to shoot me dead your daddy would come shoot me
dead but when Barksdale called the now 10-year-old to the witness stand she said she couldn't recall what happened
that day or what she said in the interview she I think felt really torn I seen her look at her dad a couple times
I felt like she was more careful about what she was saying like somebody had been coaching her in cross-examination
the defense asked if anyone had coached her on what to say she said no but Justin Kenny says he believes another
prosecution witness may have been coached a jailhouse informant named Jack Faulk who had shared a dorm block with
Seth peral Jack Faulk has a criminal history I believe 28 pages long numerous contacts with the police and he had
every incentive to lie and make up a story Fulk had come forward 3 weeks before the medical examiner's report was
released claiming he had valuable information about Amanda's death he knew things that only Seth paral could have
told him in these two handwritten letters Faulk claimed that Seth told him the camera catching him with the clothes
on was his biggest concern he also claimed that Seth said he had been giving Amanda painkillers all day and
that she was passed out at the time of her death I think he was in the bed with her after she was passed out and held
the gun against her head thank he was behind her behind her or slightly to the side the defense argued that Amanda shot
herself because her lies about Seth assaulting her had potentially ruined their lives furthermore only that tiny
trace of gunshot residue was found on peral's left hand and there was just that one Speck of blood found on his
clothing Justin Kenny says the hardest thing for the defense to explain was the way Amanda's body was found we knew that
it was going to be a problem the body had to be moved in some way had to be touched in some way Kenny says there is
one explanation that makes sense to him something peral said in his interview with Sheriff Sills I probably did touch
her I was probably hugging the out her and that would potentially account for her arms being by her sides as for the
way set's gun was found beside Amanda's body with the ejected magazine by her side the defense hired an expert who
testified he fired the gun six times and after one of those f firings the magazine spontaneously
ejected it shows that that firearm can drop the magazine when it's fired Howard seals took that very gun out and shot it
several times the gbi examined that gun didn't notate in their report any malfunctions
whatsoever Dr Laura L O R A darasa then there was the medical examiner Laura derasa Barksdale called her to to the
stand and asked her to explain how she came to her conclusion of suicide as the manner of death what I wanted the jury
and for her to see she did not consider all the evidence she had not considered Seth daughter's interview she had not
considered the cell phone data the prior domestic abuse you didn't videotape all but Dr
darasa defended her conclusion and in this statement to 48 Hours the Georgia Bureau of Investigation backed her up
our agency stands behind the original expert opinion of Perot's death were you worried at all about the
verdict what I try to remind myself it is my job to pursue Justice and to present a case for the jury to consider
and if they were to walk him out the door I would be able to look to Amanda peral's family and say we did everything
we could go inside the case and see more of the evidence at 48 [Music] hours.com when they called us all back
in we all just held hands and dropped our head it had been just under 2 and 1/2 hours when the jury in the murder Tri
trial of Seth peral announced that they had reached a verdict I just remember praying saying God you
know just please you know please do this for our family let us have Justice for our
sisters and Justice is what they feel they got the verdict guilty of murder it was B sweet
because we got justice but it didn't bring her back and didn't bring our best friend
back that same day perold was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole I want many years of him praying
to God and being on his knees that he would have took his own life instead of my
sisters Justin Kenny says he believes an innocent man is now behind bars for life
my heart sank I've known Seth for almost a decade now and I don't think he did [Music]
it every August on her birthday Amanda's sisters honor her memory by releasing love letters tied to purple
balloons I love you Amanda I hope you are having a beautiful birthday in heaven happy birthday
dear Amanda happy birthday to [Music] you in 2022 the notes also included the National Domestic Abuse Hotline number
and hopefully this will find somebody that really needs it we just want to create awareness around domestic abuse
and for people to don't sit back and just let happened no matter what the the victim is telling
[Music] you fight for them you know help them help them any way you can there's so
many things I wish I could go back now and do different I wish I could go back and
save her are you going to save somebody with this I hope so [Music] taken from her friends and family too
soon she was artistic she was creative she was smart she was feisty a murder roams free for too long there was that
constant fear is this going to happen again you will never forget Sarah yoro 48 Hours next on CBS and streaming on
Paramount Plus [Music] [Music] I'm anarie green and welcome to postmortem and whether you're new to 48
hours or a longtime fan we're answering your biggest questions from our episode the death of an officer's wife this is a
special one to me because I was the correspondent on this case and I'm joined Now by producer Judy Ryback who
reported and produced on this episode so welcome Judy thank you it is really good
to be here for my first ever podcast so before we get to our postmortem let's listen to an overview of this week's
episode it was February 3rd 2020 when Seth peral then a police officer for the city of Edenton Georgia reported his
44-year-old wife Amanda had shot and killed herself putham County Sheriff Howard sils was in charge of the
investigation he said that they were in bed and they were arguing and then all of a sudden she just produced the gun
out of thin air and executed herself but Sills says from the start he wasn't buying perold story
for one thing the crime scene didn't look like a suicide to the sheriff her body is flat on the back her
legs are almost together and her arms are tucked against her side with her hands cut this wasn't right also of
concern to SS was the way this Smith and Wesson three 80 which belonged to Seth peral was found lying next to Amanda's
body with its magazine ejected the magazine it was near her right side and the pistol itself was way down
here below her left foot there's something not adding up district attorney Wright Barksdale points to the
fact that just 6 days before Amanda peral's death she had called 911 and had her husband AR ared on charges of simple
battery and Family Violence the next day he made bond I think he hid behind a badge and wore a mask every day nice
house law enforcement but behind that door to that house he was pretty abusive based in part on the crime scene and
allegations of abuse Barksdale charged 44-year-old Perot with murder but 7 months later the medical examiner in the
case issued her report ruling Amanda peral's death a suicide when you're working with Judy
you get every transcript you get any piece of evidence that you know the investigators are willing to give every
phone call you've had with everyone we're about to interview you're really detailed and so when you said to me you
were struggling with this hour why did you find putting this together so challenging
I think for me honestly it's not the case itself because for me the evidence is so clear like it just speaks so
loudly and it's and it's interesting for me it was because it was a domestic violence case I think that's what was
really bothering me you know like and and the notion that um that Amanda was trying to get out and didn't get out in
time you know and I know and we sort of talked about this that yes it was a toxic relationship
yes neither of these people were perfect um but you were really cognizant of putting together the hour in a way that
we would not be blaming Amanda for what happened to her yeah well that's what we
do at 48 hours we're very very sensitive to victims CU nobody deserves to be murdered you know no matter who you are
or what you've done you know whatever um we don't blame the victim at all and and
we're really um we we're fair and balanced cuz we go bend over backwards to be always fair and balanced but we
but we honor the victims and their families yeah um I know for me this was sort of classic red flags when it comes
to uh domestic violent situation very toxic relationship alienation um and you know increasingly she had become
dependent on Seth but I really do feel like there was some manipulation oh yeah I feel like there was a lot of
manipulation um from the start and remember she was always dependent on him right from the very start he had her
move in with him and reportedly wouldn't let her get a job yeah so um she was completely dependent on him yeah the
idea of being married to a police officer like everything on the surface of this looked so perfect you have a
young family police officer a beautiful house a boat in the driveway I mean it was all an illus
of this kind of per perfect Suburbia living you know what I mean yeah it wasn't it wasn't yeah so let's dig into
the case and the key question when it comes to this case is who pulled the trigger right was it a suicide was it a
murder and I'm going to throw something else in too was it an accidental suicide um because that's something that
Seth's lawyers sort of raised that maybe she had shot herself by accident because
you know she was inebriated they had been drinking a lot um so can you talk a little bit about the medical examiners
ruling cuz that was the moment right that I heard gasps when I was sitting and watching the hour where people were
like how did the medical examiner ruled this as suicide when everything about the case seems so odd right not only how
but the timing of it right like they were still in the middle of investigating the case and suddenly this
report comes out and everybody was stunned I mean everybody was stunned often when you have a gunshot directly
to the temple Emmy tend to rule suicide because who else is going to get that close to you and you know you have to
kind of stand still to to be shot this way right so I think their theory is it's not a it's not a struggle there's
no struggle there is a gunshot right to the temple and um I can't believe she looked at the crime scene photos and saw
a suicide I don't see she didn't budge on the stand and you've done a lot of 48 hours
so one of the things that you were telling me was that you know often medical examiners do disagree with
investigators but not like this it's usually the other way around an investigator might say I think it's a
suicide and the medical examiner says no you should take a second look so this was a little odd very odd to me the
other thing that shocked people too was the same thing that shocked the sheriff the position of Amanda's body I I don't
know about you when you talk to some of your friends but I know my friends that was the other thing that they kept on
talking about where her hands were positioned where the gun was positioned the way the gun broke apart like how
does she end up like that you know like straight out like a mummy with her hands
cued by her side in fact let's play a little of what sarif SS has to say the magazine it was near her right
side and the pistol itself was way down here below her left foot and there was a bullet in the guns
so remember he explained to us that um you have to if the magazine falls out how is there a bullet the the magazine
has to eject another bullet into the gun and then it falls out it doesn't happen
that way right the gun was not tested for fingerprints and also not tested for the gunpowder residue right which you
know you go what are you talking about the gunpowder residue would let you know if she committed suicide cuz it'd be all
over her hands all over her hands but there's a big butt with that right right I've been told by a lot of Das and and
detectives at this point they they don't really rely on it because again because
when you shoot off a gun yeah GSR gunshot residue goes all over the place and uh and and yeah so it might not have
proven anything whether she was holding the gun or not the gun was so close to her that and anyone else would have
gotten right what is interesting is that they found a you know a bit of it on his
hand right right and but it was his gun but it was his gun and he was a cop but he had been off duty for a while right
and he could have showered and there could have been just a little bit left oh the other thing is you know there's
no blood so how do you shoot yourself and not get blood on your hand and the sleeve of your shirt it just doesn't
does make sense so yeah when sheriff sales sort of Acts this out it seems impossible and certainly the way
Amanda's body was um you know you wouldn't sort of shoot yourself and then wind up in that position but on the flip
side what Sheriff SS was suggesting was that Seth somehow got behind her was able to crouch down
behind her I mean what he's suggesting as the alternative reality I guess is also not
very easy to do no it's not re real easy to wrap your brain around right there was no room for him to crouch down I
mean I just don't really get it I I I I could we could played homicide detective
for hours um so like I said Judy gives you everything that they've acquired about a
case and one of the things that I listened to was the tapes of sets interrogation by Sheriff Sills okay so
that's where he's sort of explaining why her body was in in this strange position
um and he initially says I didn't touch her I didn't touch her I didn't touch her and it felt a lot to
me it felt like someone who was lying it felt like someone who was just trying to
keep the conversational ball in the air but not actually answering any of the questions I want to play a little bit I
maybe I I don't know I probably did touch her I was probably hugging the out of her and I was probably like I'm so
like honey what the hell's going on then he says well maybe I hugged her and it was a lot of that wasn't it Judy in the
conversation a lot of kind of jumping around being un deflecting yeah yeah kept wanting to talk about what a great
police officer he was and how Amanda thought he was such a great police officer and how important it was to her
and to him and yeah yeah I I'm a good officer I'm a good police officer I'm a good police officer I'm a good
officer it really sounds a little bit like he's trying to manipulate the sheriff and then he uses the word my
wife executed herself he said that they were in bed and they were arguing and then all of a sudden she just produced
the gun out of thin air and executed herself I just sat there watch my wife execute herself in all my years of
questioning anybody for suicide I have never heard heard anybody Ed the term executed during the interview with
Sheriff SS that was a word that jumped out at him and he is like I've never heard anyone speak like that yeah I've
never heard that either in my 13 years at uh 48 hours I have never heard anyone use the word execute you know people
should know that um you really worked hard to get somebody to speak on Seth's behalf yeah yes it was very difficult
yeah you you spent a lot of time talking to his mother and his mother really felt
like the sheriff had it out for Seth yeah yeah the defense seemed to be that um Seth was a good guy and that um that
he was uh the victim of uh some sort of conspiracy you know the sheriff was out to get the local police chief and um and
this and Seth got caught in the middle of some battle between the sheriff and the local police chief and he was sort
of like roadkill you know right yeah now Sheriff's Hills is sort of like a fixture in putam County um he's been
sheriff for really for a really long time but the sort of line there is that he grew up in the courthouse because he
had actually been adopted by the district attorney of the county so he had always been around law law
enforcement the courthouse and then eventually grew up to become Sheriff that's part part of the reason why she
felt that you know the tentacles of sheriff sils could be long and influential in
the county yeah I mean he does have long influential tentacles in the county you
know but has he used them for evil I mean there's no evidence of that right so and and there was no evidence that
that he was going to cross the Thin Blue Line you know um or that he wasn't you know I should say that
that he was going after a police officer you know and and he in in his words he felt like that put more pressure on him
right because it was one of their own and they did have to be super careful and make sure that they got it right
because he was a police officer so I feel like almost every time that I spoke to you sort of leading up to our shoots
you would say I just got off the phone with Seth mom you really did spend a lot of time talking to her you had lunch
with her on your birthday yeah uh the life of a 48 Hours producer yeah we couldn't get her to go on camera no what
was her concern you know I don't know how to answer that question actually I mean
because we did spend so much time on the phone hours and hours and hours on the phone with this woman um and listening
to her story and really trying to understand her defense of her son um and I wanted her to come on camera and say
that I wanted her to come on camera and tell us what kind of man he was cuz she was painting him to be you know the good
guy yeah so we have a lot more to talk about we're going to get into the possible
motive for this murder asset's daughter that incredible interview video and a possible jailhouse confession we'll be
right [Music] back welcome back so Seth's mom is you know characterizing she's telling you
that her son's a good guy that he loved Amanda but then on the flip side you have a guy who just became a police
officer he's got a bit of a reputation for roughing up his wife other officers know about it and we actually sort of
hear it in a 911 call when an officer is heading over to the house um after hearing about a disturbance I want to
play that 911 call sh off would you help pleas yes thank you she called me she had
barricaded herself in a back bedroom it's my husband and he's putting his hands on me she ended up having to run
next door he locked me out of the house and I'm just trying to get my things out
of the house please she's at the neighbor's house right now another Sheriff's dispatcher was alerted and she
said her husband is an officer with the Eden some Police Department that second dispatcher said he knew Seth foral and
said said he had a reputation I ain't supposed to know this but he's been out of work with his back and apparently
he's over there whipping on her ass Seth's arrested for um domestic assault even after that after the arrest Amanda
refuses to stay away order and so Seth is able to come back and she does she doesn't survive much longer after that
right right that call was her first call to the police ever right and uh just a few days before she was shot yeah why do
you think she let Seth come back he was totally in control right and and we've talked about this she loved his daughter
right so they had custody of of his daughter and um yeah like as I'm remembering it now she didn't have a job
she didn't have a car and I even feel like she didn't have a cell phone that she could use regular at that point yeah
yeah but there was she went a long time without her own cell phone right like she really was restricted and had felt
she had few options but she did have her sisters and her sisters felt like there
was another reason why she would not insist on Seth being kept away from her I want to play Alicia's sound cuz she
was scared she knew he was mad she knew that it was public that he had been arrested he's a police officer you know
I have to bring him home and make this right says potential motive the the suggestion from the sheriff from the
prosecutor is that after he was arrested for domestic violence everything about his world was going there's a risk of it
all unraveling right um it was already sort of barely hanging together this facade of suburban success and peace yes
um and with the removal of One Piece which would have been his job everything else could could have fallen apart yeah
so I think think he was panicking he was going to lose his job and potentially lose custody of his daughter and uh he
had Amanda write that note and he wanted her to take it down to the sheriff's department and I think
he forced her to write the note because that's sort of what it looks like right and that's what the sheriff says and the
da um the language is is not con you know it's just bizarre it's a bizarre letter it's a really weird letter I want
to play some of what Sheriff SS had to say that sort of stuck out to him he said that she had written something that
she intended to bring to me recanting what she had told the deputies and he told me where it was this handwritten
letter was found in Amanda's nightstand it reads in part I Amanda pero would like to retract my statement my husband
never put his hands on me ever I feel horrible for the humiliation I put my husband and my family through I am
willing to take any punishment I may deserve for what I have done so the odd word is punishment I mean who writes
that if you if you say that you know I was wrong I was dishonest it's never happened then that's all your right you
don't say punish me please I don't know was you know it was bizarre to me that's
the one the biggest piece of evidence that proves motive right yeah and I think she might have refused to take it
down to the sheriff's department and um was planning on leaving him and if she left him that was it right there there
was no defense in the in the abuse the the child would have been taken away and and for sh for Sheriff SS because he's
got a little bit of intuition it wasn't just the wording it was The Way It Was Written you actually brought a copy of
the letter here I mean when you look at this and not only is the penmanship perfect and some people have perfect
penmanship I am not one of those people look like a paper written for like a school class the margins are perfect it
just looks like somebody who had sort of written it over and over again until it
was Perfection and those are the little things that when you have a lot of experience um when you've seen notes
like this before you know like the sheriff has it just it just stands out all right we'll talk a little bit about
the trial now but when you listen to his daughter's interview oh my gosh cuz I listen to it again yeah um and she's
describing the fight that they had when officers were called they were cussing at each other Miss Amanda was cussing
too but she didn't touch Daddy at all Daddy was like touching her nose like this like get out of my house right now
the jury was shown most of the interview she was on the floor like this yeah trying to get her stuff then all of a
sudden Daddy just started grabbing her arms and Daddy just pushed her over the laundry table and then um open the door
and pushed her out the door while her father spent the night in jail she said Amanda begged her not to tell anyone
what happened or there could be deadly consequences Amanda tells her that night if your daddy loses custody of you he's
going to shoot me dead your daddy would come shoot me dead can you imagine you know he is throwing her out of the house
and this poor little child is describing it in the way that she would have described a game that was being played
in the school yard you know so and so went after so and so and then so and so went after so and so your heart is
breaking for her yeah because this is not normal right and she I don't know if she knows it right and then there was
sort of some other video that was shown in the court from Amanda's cell phone that kind of it's kind of the only
Glimpse that we have of what might have been going on behind the scenes right um
let's play some of that I want to have a good weekend you burn that up when you try to put that phone in my face what
phone in your face oh right there oh your your videotape yeah because you're being and I'm going to show you you
didn't videotape all the you when you hit me and smack hit you youing choke me eight fing times so I've heard I I can't
remember who said it but someone said Amanda could give as good as she could get right and I don't know about that I
don't think that was equal but she was a fighter she would fight back victims can
also at times have the power try to defend them to try to fight back to try and create boundaries right but um at
but at times they are overpowered and and what we saw was a power Dynamic here that even when she fought back she was
always in the weaker position a power struggle and she was always in the weaker position
um what was your take on this jailhouse confession I I know that they kind of like included it but I didn't I didn't
think they actually needed it I didn't think they needed it either and I and I'm not I'll never really be fully sure
um why they brought it in and when we asked the da about it he said well you know it was just another piece of the
puzzle and you know part of that confession was according to him Seth saying that his biggest concern was the
clothing that they would see that he changed his clothes and I didn't really understand that cuz there was no blood
on that clothing anyway right so what's the big deal and I really thought the defense attorney who didn't interview
with us um I thought that his explanation was was pretty solid like they had been out that morning he went
home he changed he took a shower changed his clothes and got into bed you know let's talk about the defense attorney
yeah please so 48 Hours tried and tried and tried to get someone to talk on Seth
behalf his mother had at times promised to come she had promised friends would come she had all this sort of stuff
right so in the end we got this defense attorney uh Justin Kenny Justin Kenny right who I thought was great he was
terrific what people need to know about Justin Kenny and the and the defense in general is he was not set's primary
attorney right he wasn't the lead attorney on the he wasn't the lead attorne can you sort of tell us how tell
us how his defense evolved so Seth initially had a very um well-known well-healed defense attorney
who they were paying a lot of money for and he passed away like a month before trial and then Justin Kenny comes in at
the last minute and has like you know just a few weeks or a few days or a month or so to read into the case which
isn't really a lot and and then he uh and then he gets stuck doing closing arguments the night before he wrote the
whole thing out himself like really sort of last minute crunch time so I really appreciated that he was willing to talk
to us about the case um and I got to tell you I mean he really believes that Seth should not be behind bars yeah he
was very passionate I thought he did a very good job giving the evidence and what he had to work with and uh but he
really does believe that Seth is innocent yeah so kind of the most kind of challenging
part of the story for me was speaking to Amanda's sisters yeah and it was challenging because they were incredibly
emotional there were a lot of tears and I just felt the weight of doing right by
them yeah doing right by Amanda um and making sure that they got their story out
we just want to create awareness around domestic abuse and for people to don't sit back and just let it happen
no matter what the the victim is telling you they were glad that they had spoken
for their sister right cuz that was was what it was all about like someone has to be the voice of Amanda and tell us
her side of the story and who she was and and and what you know what what they they saw in that relationship I like to
think that when PE when viewers watch our show they either see themselves or families see their daughters or cousins
or sisters in Amanda and they see the red flags and they think oh are there any of those red flags in this
relationship and should I be a little more vocal about that fight for them you know help them help them any way you can
there's so many things I wish I could go back now and do different friend I wish
I could go back and save her you're going to save somebody with this I hope so be sure to join us next Tuesday for
another postmortem and if you're liking the show please rate and review 48 Hours
on Apple podcast and follow 48 Hours wherever you get your podcast you can also listen ad free on Amazon music the
wry app or with a 48 Hours Plus subscription on Apple [Music] [Music] podcast where's the victim who's shocked
who is shocked where is the victim on April 20th 2022 my life changed forever so we've got Ms coming
right now I was shot at Point Blank Range two times right here right here this is the victim right here first name
Nikki gunshot won to the next all right it's a miracle she's alive it's a miracle if she wasn't killed you're
breathing okay okay all right someone wanted me dead honestly it was a normal day I had
worked the night before I worked the overnight shift I'm a forensic scientist for the
Minneapolis Police [Music] Department after getting my child to school I slept I picked him up from school and
then he had a visit with his father that night what would you do while he's visiting with his dad so I typically
would run errands go grocery shopping or do the things that were easier to do without my
child when it's time for her to pick up her son she step St out of her car and starts walking like dozens of other
times that she's done this I'm halfway in between my vehicle and the door and this person comes running up from behind
me shots were being fired I fell to the ground and the shooter stands over me and continues to try to shoot I felt my
neck and then could see the blood I was just driving home and I saw a person run up to another person and
then I heard two bangs and that other person collapsed it maybe looked like a robbery
or something there was so fast that was the first thought this must have been a robbery that was gone wrong was this a
driveby mistaken identity or she mugged maybe something related to work when you
do work for the police department did you think it might have something to do with work you know I know a lot of
people asked me that I knew that this could happen but I didn't want to believe it
would whoever did that knows she was coming to pick up her kid did you recognize no the as salent I
didn't could you tell the gender was it male or female so I thought it was male I was very sure it was a female
shooter what is going on who could have done this [Music] [Music] was coming up and I saw the two people
and then all of a sudden I heard bang bang as Emily Clancy later told police she couldn't quite believe what she saw
and heard on the evening of April 20th 2022 as she drove home from having dinner with a friend I stopped right
here at this intersection as soon as the light turned green Emily sped through the intersection and pulled up next to
the victim I opened the door I said are you okay and she said no I've been shot Nicole Nikki lenway Ford was shot
and bleeding in the parking lot of familywise a Parenting Center the 33-year-old was no stranger to violence
she worked as a forensic scientist for the Minneapolis Police Department and right after being shot she called 911
911 what is the address of the emergency she's barely breathing could barely say any words other than her name
and I said get in the car Emily took over the 911 call I could see that there was blood coming out of
her neck and followed the disp Batcher instructions they said put a jacket or something around her neck and I said
yeah I have one right here within minutes First Responders arrived were you the one I called where's the victim
the dramatic scene was captured on police body cameras Oh my God oh my God what's going on she was scared really
scared now Crush her on the neck she's out shot me on as well she was in a lot of pain she was having a hard time
breathing I just looked in the eyes and I said Nikki we got this we got this just stay with
me I don't think we can ever recreate how powerful of a moment that was I just wanted her to know that she wasn't alone
in this and if that was the only thing I could give to this poor girl like that that would mean something to
me okay all right dear can you walk we're going to get outside we're going to go into the ambulance
the hospital all right one of the most surprising things about the video is that you had to walk to the
ambulance I couldn't believe it were you aware of how badly injured you were I don't think so I think I was in shock
maybe I didn't realize how bad it was try not to move your head left or right okay Nicole was loaded into the
ambulance and soon lost consciousness breaking news tonight a woman is in the hospital after the news spread quickly
that a Minneapolis Police employee had been shot Nicole's then boyfriend MPD officer Donovan Ford was at home what is
it like to get that phone call that the woman you love has just been shot I had no
words I went flying down to the hospital I was panic when Don arrived at the henpen County Medical Center he wasn't
prepared for what he saw she was basically unconscious and she had tubes down her throat and all
that when you did finally get to talk to a doctor what did they tell you she's in
bad shape we're going to do our best to you know save her life essentially Nicole had a perforated lung
severe damage to her vocal cords and a bullet lodged between two of her ribs she was in critical condition I'm in law
enforcement so when they say critical that means essentially they're close to the end and where she was shot typically
people don't survive I was praying a lot as doctors rushed to save Nicole outside the familywise Parenting Center
her colleagues at the police department got to work can you throw up some tape we've got casings right over here on the
ground they found three discharged bullet casings and blood they quickly learned that Nicole
had been it familywise to pick up her son who was on a scheduled visit with his father her ex Tim
Amer officers caught up with Tim as he was finishing up his visit with their 5-year-old son Callahan he had been at
the center for hours hours and then you've been in the back with your son time in the community Tim Amer was
well-liked and a respected local Taekwondo instructor Tim seemed worried about Nicole is she okay if she going to
be fine I mean she's stable right now but it's really serious Andy had an idea about what may have happened he thought
it had something to do with a case she worked she was afraid cuz she thought people were driving by her house she
changed her last name to her middle name she shut down her social media she had Drive of Minneapolis coming through her
house all the time she had me bring over um my my shotgun to her house she was she was in
fear but police didn't find any obvious connections to Nicole's cases they searched Tim's Jeep and asked
if he owned any other cars this is your only time no no I have a do Challenger too and then let him go
police continue to look for evidence canvasing the building and surrounding area searching for security footage and
discovered the cameras from familywise a bank across the street and an elementary
school around the corner had captured every second the first images are Nicole arriving to pick up her son then someone
dressed all in black running her down from behind the moment the shots were fired the shooter fleeing on foot and
then driving off in a black Dodge Ram truck but the truck had no license plates and police couldn't tell who was
driving the next day Nicole regained Consciousness and she told police that she was sure she knew who was
responsible I just knew it had something to do with Tim I just knew well of course I'm going to be the first guy you
guys look at I didn't know how he was involved but he was involved what would you do if you saw a
stranger being shot on the street chat now with the 48 Hours team on x Taekwondo the tenants of the Korean
martial art include courtesy self- control Integrity the most skilled like Tim Amer
are called Master Nicole would come to believe that Tim was somehow involved in her shooting
but in the world of Taekwondo he was a very good instructor Pat and Claire Zelmer were
part of amer's tight group of friends and also familiar with his world taekwon doe Academy people would definitely
refer to him as Master Amer within the within his school but they would also if they were still students and they were
friendly outside of the school it would he was still Master Amer people gravitated to Amer his
physical skill business savvy easy confidence a leader who seemed to have it all figured out he's charismatic
driven intense he can draw people in and make them feel this connection with him and his reputation continued after
dark the mayor of nightlife here I would say that's a fair assessment very much so very much so Charlie dof knew Tim
well before he met Nicole and witnessed firsthand the power of Tim's personality
so I moved back here in about 2001 and was Tim Amer already living next door he was he was living next door but his
mother own Tim was a helpful neighbor with a style and appeal you couldn't miss he loved fashion loved the right
jeans and the right shirt and the right boot and always had to be the best was he a good friend to you yeah he was a
great friend and where was Tim Living Tim bedroom was in the back corner here and according to Charlie there was a
waiting list of women who wanted into amer's bedroom coming and going yeah they would pull up right here the front
light here was um purple and if that light was on then the women knew that they could go in are you serious I'm not
kidding it was almost like the you know the red light district juggling a lot of
women at once yes of course cuz it seemed like there was a different girl every night what did women see in him I don't
know cuz I didn't see it but many other women seem to see much in Tim amiker how
did you meet Tim I met Tim by going to his gym and when did you start dating shortly after Nicole was responsible and
grounded Tim's close friends quickly understood the attraction there was something special about her she's smart
she's pretty she's outgoing she's got it all at first I actually really wasn't interested but he was very persistent
you know he just kind of wore me down and I kind of I started enjoying our time together and he was older right he
had experienced more life than me and it was exciting they moved in together in early
2014 but friends say Tim still wasn't faithful did you try to war warn her about Tim and his women about his
womanizing yes absolutely there were a lot of red flags a lot of jealousy yes they fought constantly it was almost
like a Perpetual argument verging on a fight did you ever see him violent or hurtful toward her I did not no but
Nicole would tell investigators Amer was violent I mean one night he threw me against the wall holding my neck why did
you stay even as long as you did I asked myself that all the time I don't know I think I felt
trapped and you know he just got into my brain so badly she says that on a trip to Las
Vegas an angry alcohol fueled Tim threw a lamp across the room it was terrifying
I I locked myself in the bathroom September 2015 Nicole then 26 years old had more
than enough but she says now that breaking away from Tim was anything but easy I packed my bags and I started
walking out and he pulled me back into the house by my ponytail and dragged me into the bedroom and after that I was
like I am done Nicole moved out and an 18-year-old student of Tim's moved in running out one of his rooms her name
Colleen Larson seemed absolutely lovely nice girl I think she's very smart um probably booksmart at streetsmart Colina
begun studying with Amer when she was barely a teenager Tim's friends say she seemed infatuated with him he's her
instructor he's her her master you know for 10 plus years at this point it just seemed like she was like this little
puppy dog wanting to impress him like a child than an adult in that respect yes they say Colleen seemed delighted to be
living with a man she had idolized since she was young as for Nicole she hoped to have no
further contact with Tim but very soon they all got some unexpected news I found out I was pregnant and he wanted
me to get rid of the baby and I just told him I couldn't and I was in a state of
panic investigation you okay right now I'm going to ask you if I can search you for weapons real
quick okay yeah detectives needed to know all about Nicole's relationship with their son's
father Tim Amer why would I have weapons here there was a shooting happened here
has nothing to do with me the investigation would track a trail that led back to the fall of
2015 when Nicole first learned she was pregnant with a taquan doe Master she alleged had abused her it just got more
and more volatile we were so excited for them to be having a baby that's a momentous
and a a happy thing to normal people but the only thing normal was the irrepressible Joy of a new mother she
named him Callahan he was born on June 20th of 2016 he was a big boy and he was perfect and then she gave him the the
last name arer Nicole was the primary caregiver but sometimes Cal stayed with his dad did you feel that co-parenting
was working I felt like it could but he wasn't always reliable says Nicole when she needed him most Tim was
halfway around the world Tim went to Thailand and totally bailed on Christmas and New Year Tim may not have been a
Hands-On dad but someone else was ready to step in Colleen Larson his longtime Taekwondo student who was renting that
room in Tim's house she's very kind to Callahan she was a good caregiver to him and with unpredictable hours with the
Minneapolis Police Department the arrangement seemed to work for Nicole my son really seemed to like her when the
once young Taekwondo student turned 18 her relationship with Tim amiker quietly changed according to
Charlie did you get the sense he was in love with coli no not at all I think she
was very much in love with him Charlie says Tim called the relationship easy she would call him Master call him the
house yep Master Amer and ultimately kind of became you know like a maid or a servant
to him then in the summer of 2017 Nicole 's life took a dramatic turn do you remember when you first met
Nicole absolutely it was the kind of love at first sight that only a cop on the beat
could have first time I ever saw her was on a burglar call I definitely took notice at that point why she's
gorgeous and to Donovan Ford intriguing she processed the scene so she was a member of the real CSI oh yeah he knew
that I was a single mom and he was divorced when I just mentioned his name you lit up why is that he is truly the
love of my life he has been the biggest blessing to myself and my son and he's been through a lot with you hasn't he he
has Nicole's already difficult relationship with Tim only got worse when Tim discovered she was dating
Donovan who was fast becoming part of Callahan's life did the way he dealt with Cal change after you started dating
Donovan it did he wanted him all the time and Tim didn't want Donovan around his son he accused Donovan of saying
negative things about Colleen then Tim called Donovan and left this angry message man up for once in your life and
quit hiding behind your bad and then I started getting text messages like this one where Tim claimed Donovan was
destroying his family it ignited what can only be called a war that would grow treacherous
and it wouldn't be a short one how would you describe the last six years it has been chaos Nicole claims Tim tried to
destroy her like I'm going to take everything from you did you believe him I did the black belt's new weapon of
choice was the legal system it was the Relentless number of motions before the court he reported Nicole to Child
Protection Services multiple times accusing her and Donovan of physical and sexual abuse Children's Services show up
at your house yes I had them in and out of my home for 3 years Tim filed for custody of C
and Nicole filed for an order of protection from Tim not a single one of the allegations against Nicole or
Donovan was found to have substance did you see anything that concerned you or made you think that Cal had been abused
no nothing no he was a well-loved child but Tim didn't stop there he also filed complaints to the police department
about Donovan you were investigated then and what was the finding nothing happened it continued yep allegation
after allegation and then in May of 2018 Amer alleged Nicole ran over his foot with her car I was charged with
domestic assault the proud crime scene investigator was now a humiliated defendant I never thought I would be at
the defense table how long was the jury out on that less than 15 minutes I was found not guilty but the battle for
Callahan raged on and the child got caught in the middle you could tell he was very conflicted Callahan was a pawn
it wasn't about Callahan or Callahan's well-being it was about inflicting the maximum amount of damage on
Nikki in the fall of 2020 the trial for custody of Callahan began when it was over the judge awarded Nicole sole legal
and physical custody Tim was allowed just one supervised visit a week Tim Amer once a champion was now
boxed into a corner he was allowed no contact alone with his son and cops thought that might be a motive for him
wanting Nicole dead I've been here the whole time I don't know what happened out there police would hone in on the
crime scene remember that black do Dodge Ram truck that the shooter drove off in turns out Tim had lied to the cops he
owned a truck just like [Music] [Music] it a good homicide detective will tell you it's just good to know what Vehicles
anybody owns whether they're a witness whether they're a suspect whether they're a victim because people use
their vehicles and that's how you can figure out things that's how you can pursue leads on the night of Nicole's
shooting assistant henpen County attorneys Patrick Lofton and Jacob Fishman say that police were determined
to find out who was driving that black Dodge truck a black Dodge Ram is a very very common car and authorities had
asked him what he owned what do you mean this is your only car no no I have a Dodge Challenger too a Dodge Challenger
sedan and this Jeep but it turned out that Tim did have another vehicle a black Dodge Ram truck
that looked a lot like the one seen leaving the area after the shooting that raised the alarm bells for the
Minneapolis Police Department this is a picture right here police called Tim in for a second interview that's not my
truck they showed him stills of the truck from that video seemingly unruffled he insisted that it wasn't his
those pictures were not pictures of my truck Tim claimed his truck unlike the one in the video had a license plate and
Superman decal stickers near both front doors where is a Superman logo Case Closed Superman logo is not in
the truck couldn't have been me I've been here the whole time I don't know what happened out there I'm not what's
more he had an alibi he was inside the familywise center when Nicole was shot so even if it was his truck he couldn't
be The Driver who else has access to the truck uh Keen has access to it colen lson Tim's former Taekwondo student you
the only one um to my knowledge to police the pieces of the puzzle were coming together Nicole had said she
thought the shooter was a woman let me ask you this is there any reason why Colleen would have want to shoot Nicole
oh hell no she wasn't hurt anybody Tim insisted Colleen was incapable of violence and Colleen who was also
brought in for questioning insisted she was nowhere near familywise that night she said that she came home from work as
usual went inside took a shower and was there until Tim got home but police didn't believe either one of
them and turned to FBI special agent Richard fener a technology specialist he discovered that Tim's Truck had Wi-Fi
and like a cell phone creates a digital Trail we could track it much like we could at the cell phone vener wanted to
know everywhere Tim and Colleen went the day of the shooting their cell phones and the black Dodge truck left plenty of
digital breadcrumbs with phones with cars whatever you have they're going to tell you the truth
their records always tell you the truth on the afternoon of the shooting Tim and Colleen were both at the
Taekwondo Studio around 400 p.m. Tim left to go to familywise for the visit with his son he was driving the jeep
later Colleen left the studio in the black truck to go home how can you tell that that's from the cell phone records
so not only the truck but her cell phone correct just after 7 p.m. fener says the
black truck left the couple's residence and headed straight to familywise now we
see that person who is walking right here that is Colleen Larson Colleen Larson did leave her house and
detectives placed her directly at the scene she appears to be walking around essentially scoping out the area I I
believe that she is planning her next steps a rate of the couple's house yielded more evidence bullet casings
matching the ones found at the crime scene on April 28th 2022 Colleen Larson was arrested she was
charged with attempted first deegree premeditated murder but was Tim involved agent fenard suspected that Tim had
deliberately altered his truck's appearance to throw cops off his path he discovered that several hours before the
shooting Tim had driven the black truck to a drive-thru at a local Kentucky Fried Chicken and we pull surveillance
video there's that same truck without the decal without the license plate for police it was enough Tim Amer was
arrested and charged with attempted first degree premeditated murder and aiding an accomplice after the fact when
you do something to significantly further or assist in a crime you are just as culpable as the person that
actually pulls the trigger Nicole was not surprised to hear that Tim had been arrested but she was shocked to find out
about Colleen why would she shoot you I don't know this time when Colleen was questioned by
police she broke down and confessed to shooting Nicole took the truck and she says Tim was behind it
whose idea was it to to shoot [Music] Nicole SS so he asked you if you felt if you feel comfortable would you shoot
Nicole from me yes yes she said she believed Tim's story that Nicole was abusing Callahan
he was doing bad things to the child and I wanted to help the little man after the shooting she told police Tim
disposed of the gun he just said he would take care of it he just said he would take care of it so you have no
idea what he did with the gun Bly know still Tim continued to deny any involvement Timothy Amer and colen
Larson are charged with attempted murder on November 3rd 2022 Tim amer's trial began there were no cameras in the
courtroom prosecutors knew that they had to show the jury that Nicole wasn't abusing her son and that it was Tim who
had been victimizing her for a long long time what happened behind the scenes wasn't just this couple seconds of
horror that Nicole had to suffer at familywise it was 10 years of hell that he put her through Tim and his lawyers
refused our request for an interview but 48 Hours consultant and defense attorney
Matthew troano reviewed their case for us there's obviously no direct evidence of Tim's Guild zero he has a rock solid
Alibi about where he was at the time that this happened according to Triano prosecutors needed to build their case
by focusing on Tim's lies and his past treatment of Nicole because there was no smoking gun that directly tied Tim to
the shooting there is circumstantial evidence the truck the lies those are all kind of circumstantial pieces that
tie back to him but there is no direct evidence of him specifically buying or doing or having something that led to
this act the defense called No witnesses to the stand Triano thinks they were betting the prosecution just hadn't made
its case where's the proof where's the evidence as the jury went out to deliberate prosecutors were concerned of
course we were very worried there's a chance this guy is going to walk absolutely how nervous were you really
[Music] nervous do you believe Colleen Larsson acted on her own see more evidence from
the case at 48 [Music] hours.com those sacred tenants of tawan doe self-control Integrity could the master win this
battle the jury took an hour to decide he was found guilty guilty on all accounts Tim Amer guilty of premeditated
attempted murder and aiding his accomplice Colleen Larson and how did you both feel about that relieved joyous
and justice for Nikki I almost didn't believe it finally we had some type of closure at sentencing Nicole wanted
judge Shireen askalani to hear all she endured to protect her the judge kept most of Nicole's statement off camera
you breathing okay okay but the memories of that point blank moment will clearly
never be forgotten I can still feel the burning sensation and the utter fear of not being able to speak or to help
myself I truly thought I was dying that day even though I feel like the truth is
starting to come to light I still live in fear Amer who' refused to testify at his
trial now decided to speak the court allowed his plea for leniency to be heard and filmed it is no secret how
broken this system is the main message that I felt called here to say goes as this for all who are led by
the spirit of God are sons of God but with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human
Court how would you describe his statement erratic blaming everybody else he was the victim and this happened to
him did he show any kind of remorse no judge ocalan had no patience for Amer and his claims that Nicole had been
abused verdict it appears that you have been promoting this false narrative about Miss Ford for so long that you may
actually believe it at this time then she sentenced him to 18 years in prison Just 4 days later Colleen Larson
pleaded guilty at her sentencing hearing rather than speak for herself Colleen had her
attorney read a statement she took full responsibility for all that had happened
your honor I stand before you with the utmost respect for the decision to come I accept all the consequences for my
actions I understand and want to atone for what I have done a simple apology cannot cover the long-term damages that
I have caused anything additional from you at this time no your honor Colleen's got a kill her in her she did it there's
no no question that she had the capacity Colleen was sentenced to 16 and 1 12 years for doing what prosecutors
say was amer's bidding I think she wanted his approval and his love so badly that she would do anything and she
was in this delusional fantasy land where she thinks you know if I wasn't around that they could run off into the
sunset with Callahan and be a happy little family but how does somebody convince an
another person who's never committed a crime to shoot someone it's wild I Cal love the answers to that because that's
where we're stuck to attorney Matt trian wonders if Amer has been controlling Colleen for years why would she do this
it's the fact that she had known this person since she's 12 years old they had been in this kind of dominant
subservient relationship where he's the master she's the student he is the boss this woman who once dat an Amer
doesn't want to be named or have her face shown but she says she knows firsthand the hold Amer can have on the
women in his life yes it was a high when I was around him and that you wanted to do whatever
you could to hang on to that high yes she says she was once under amer's spell but it's certain she would never kill
for him still she sees some of herself in calling lson and I feel like that was me yep I
definitely feel like I was willing to do whatever I could to make him approve of
me and want to be with me with good behavior Tim Amer could be out of prison by 2034
do you think you'll ever feel truly safe again no you'll always have to be looking over
your shoulder I think so it all still haunts Donovan the shots fired the woman he loves fighting for
her life do you still see that in your head absolutely oh yeah still fear that you
could lose her yeah mhm all the time yet alongside the destruction there are miracles in this
story good to see you to see you too almost exactly a year I know and he look so well thank you you been feel we asked
for this one-of-a-kind reunion Emily Clancy who raced to help a stranger saving Nicole's life we are expecting a
baby conratulations thank you I'm so happy for you thank you Donovan and Nicole now husband and wife had just
gotten the good news and I was like are you serious and she's like yep and then we're just hugging and happy as for the
child Nicole had with Tim Amer how old is Callahan now he's six that's he know that his
Dad tried to kill you he does now and how did he take that better than I thought he would he's
come out amazing that's a miracle too just him being able to deal with all the stuff he's been through and still be the
kid he is thank you thank you CBS next Saturday 48 Hours brings you back-to-back episodes all summer long
next week serial killings he went to Great Links to conceal these bodies it just my answers 48 Hours Crime Time
double feature next Saturday 98 Central on CBS and streaming on Paramount Plus [Music]
I'm anmarie green welcome to 48 hours postor I'm joined today by longtime correspondent Aaron morard to discuss
her latest episode who wanted Nikki lenway dead hi Aaron thank you so much for joining us again oh I wanted to be
here this is a particularly great case and there are always things that we can't include in the hour so we can talk
about it here well I always have questions what about this case stood out to you what Drew you to it well first
thing we have a 33-year-old victim and she survives I mean we don't have that very often in at 48 hours but in many
ways she was an unusual victim she was actually a member of the Minneapolis Police Department and because of that
that raised all kinds of possibilities this is a woman who was shot Point Blank and the big question was was this a
robbery that went wrong or was this connected to work I mean there were so many possibilities oh and you know the
legal issues were great so that's what made this show special yeah you don't often get an opportunity by frankly to
talk to the victim I mean she survived this which is remarkable um I want to get to you know who investigators
initially thought was behind this but first I want to play a quick recap of the episode on April 20th 2022 Emily
Clancy was driving home from dinner with friends when something across the street
caught her attention I saw a person run up to another person and then I heard two bangs and that other person
collapsed Emily sped through the intersection and pulled up next to the victim I opened the door I said are you
okay and she said no I've been shot the victim was 33-year-old Nicole Nikki lenway a crime scene investigator for
the mini Apolis police she was on her way to pick up her 5-year-old son when she was shot she was in a lot of pain
she was having a hard time breathing where's the victim who's shot Emily did her best to help Nikki until First
Responders arrived so we've got EMS coming right now Emily told police what she thought had happened it maybe looked
like a robbery or something that was so fast take it to the hospital Nikki lost consciousness but she recovered you do
work for the police department did you think it might have something to do with work you know I know a lot of people
asked me that I knew that this could happen but I didn't want to believe it [Music]
would so those first critical moments after Nikki was shot Emily Clancy she's a total stranger she not only she
happens to be driving by at the moment that this happens but then she jumps into action she puts herself in danger a
lot of people would not have stopped when I watched this I thought to myself would I have stopped or would I have
kept on going it's remarkable it is um you know people sometimes ask me how can you do these shows and I often tell them
for the heroic people that we meet and we often do and Emily Clancy was one of those heroic people you know it's so
interesting I rode in the car with her she showed me how it all happened and um she didn't hesitate at all she just
pulled up without any thought of her own safety she then told Nikki to get in the
car cuz Nikki was standing there bleeding and at that moment again just automatically she doesn't think about
maybe the shooter is still out there she helps Nikki apply pressure on her neck Nikki of course was hit in the neck and
her vocal cords were damaged so she couldn't talk to the 911 operator so Emily stepped in and did that um I was
struck by how emotional Emily was she was almost more emotional than Nikki retelling this well you know and you are
so right Emory I talked to Nikki a long time and she had been through hell and she was so calm but when you bring it up
with Emily the idea that that Nikki could have died and it was because Emily stepped up Emily keeps thinking about
how close Nikki came to dine um so she gets very emotional Emily was actually given a good citizen award following the
shooting and that's where Emily and Nikki initially first met after you know after the first meeting that was kind of
their second meeting but in the hour you include their next reunion it's really really touching um what was that like
well you know if you look in in the background you'll see me and you could see that I'm really moved it was very
very teary um because Nikki also believes she only survived because of Emily's efforts so they have this very
strange Bond um that connects them and Nikki wanted to see her because she had very big news to tell her and tells us
at the same time that she's pregnant so you guys didn't know before no no no no and so that's always again Amry you know
that you work on these shows that you know you always get surprises when you're in the field didn't spend as much
time as we do with with the people that we interview it it really was very exciting um Nikki she actually works in
a crime lab how does she find herself being the victim of an attempted murder well that was the whole question at the
outset and it really was uh she was an unusual victim so of course there were so many possibilities was this shooting
connected to something some investigation she worked on she's a forensic scientist you know she works
primarily with um fingerprints but was there something connected to her job and then of course as it is with any case
you have to look at someone close to was this a personal attack and the early evidence in this case did seem to
indicate that it was very personal so one thing that comes up over and over again um for me when I watch these
episodes is you know you you need like the old school investigative uh knowhow but technology plays a huge role too I
don't think he can have one without the other um but in this case surveillance video really made a big difference um
incredibly this is a shooting that was caught on there was Bank surveillance video that picked up on the shooting uh
there were School cameras that showed the shooter actually getting out of this black truck and then driving away uh we
also got to see body camera footage of Nikki right after she was shot which I was stunned by because I couldn't even
tell she was shot or that she was injured the surveillance video even though you couldn't tell who it was did
it help investigators sort of narrow things down oh it did and don't you sometimes Amry when you work on these
stories you think why would anybody commit a crime in this day and age knowing that everything is getting
caught on video now I think the shooter thought that uh this person would be able to outsmart investigators because
the shooter is all in black and hair is is covered and there's a mask but in fact the surveillance video was crucial
because you see that person run up uh that person is targeting Nikki uh that person shoots Nikki once and when Nikki
starts getting up shoots again clearly this was a personal attack and so that's what investigators know then they see
the shooter run to a truck you can tell what kind of truck it's a Dodge Ram truck it does happen to be a very
popular vehicle but that certainly Narrows down um the shooter takes off um but the limitations of video is also
apparent in this case because you couldn't tell the gender uh you could not you could not tell how tall this
person is but it certainly did give investigators a lot of evidence to start off with yeah and then it's not just the
surveillance video but our own devices are tracking Us in ways that you know I think it becomes kind of the fabric of
how we move so we forget that we are being tracked all the time you think if you turn your phone off that's good
enough in this case it didn't turn out to be good enough for Tim so most vehicles that are made after
2022 have Wi-Fi capabilities what that really means is go ahead leave your phone at home thinking you won't be
tracked but as soon as you get in the car you are driving a cell phone that is essentially what you are doing and in
fact Tim amer's uh Dodge Ram truck was a 2022 and it had Wi-Fi capabilities um and because of that he
left this digital Trail even when he wasn't driving the truck they could identify that black Dodge Ram truck as
his track the route of that truck that led to someone who knew him very well and that is how they made their arrest
so in our last postm you and I talked about Tim bnck who was convicted of murdering his wife Becky you know I mean
that's what the allegation was too for him that he had turned off his phone and so he beli that he couldn't be tracked
just a couple of similarities between the two cases but you know there was all they were separated um Nikki had started
dating somebody new much like Becky had started to date somebody new and there was this really like contentious um
custody battle going on over their son no question and you know you had asked me at the beginning what was it that
Drew me to this case and the biggest thing was uh the issue of domestic violence and this case was the scariest
domestic violence case I have ever covered let's listen to a clip how would you describe the last six years it has
been chaos Nicole claims him tried to destroy her like I'm going to take everything from you did you believe him
I did the Black belt's new weapon of choice was the legal system it was the Relentless number of motions before the
court he reported Nicole to Child Protection Services multiple times accusing her and Donovan of physical and
sexual abuse children services show up at your house yes I had them in and out of my home for
3 years Tim filed for custody of Cal and Nicole filed for an order of protection
from Tim not a single one of the allegations against Nicole or Donovan was found to have substance so I have to
tell you I would the more I read about it it gave me chills it scared me you know the whole time you're wondering how
does she end up with a guy like that but Tim seemed to have this power over a lot
of people in his life so next I want to dig into Tim and and Colleen's relationship was she manipulated by him
to commit coldblooded murder it's it's such a leap but we're going to dig into that we'll be right
[Music] back welcome back uh let's get right into it Aon do you believe Colleen Larson acted on her own or do you think
Tim manipulated her let's listen to a clip from the hour when the one young Taekwondo
student turned 18 her relationship with Tim Amer quietly changed according to Charlie did you get the sense he was in
love with Colleen no not at all I think she was very much in love with him Charlie says Tim called the relationship
easy she would call him Master call him the house yep Master Amer and ultimately
kind of became you know like a maid or a servant to him I know the prosecutors believe
that she was completely manipulated by Tim and all of Tim's friends told me the same thing um it's hard for me to
believe that he could actually have so much power over somebody that he could have her shoot
someone in his place um but in fact when you look at Colleen larsson's background
she didn't know Nikki very well so there would be no reason to want her dad she had know criminal history but according
to the prosecutors Tim you know she did call him Master at home that's still I can't get over that that Bonkers because
you know Colleen had started as a student when she was like Preen almost and um and called him Master when she
was learning Taekwondo and continued to call him Master even when she started dating him so it that kind of if you
look up to someone and he's telling you that Nikki is abusing their son maybe maybe but certainly um here's this woman
with no criminal history and she not just she doesn't just shoot Nikki once she shoots her twice so something was
going on there and of course you know Colleen uh didn't want to talk to 48 Hours uh her family didn't want to talk
either so we don't necessarily know what Drew her to him but you did get an interview with a woman he had previously
dated I want to play some of that sound this woman who once dated Amer doesn't want to be named or have her face shown
but she says she knows firsthand the hold Amer can have on the women in his life yes it was a high when I was around
him and that you wanted to do whatever you could to hang on to that high yes she says she was once under Amer spell
but it's certain she would never kill for him still she sees some of herself in calling
lson and I feel like that was me yep I definitely feel like I was willing to do whatever I could to make him approve of
me and want to be with me that was so Illuminating listening to her talk and you know you also were able to talk to a
neighbor and the way he's dis describing him the way you know Tim's got women coming in and out well everyone you know
that was pretty standard men and women both told me that Tim had this amazing Charisma and power over people now I've
got to be honest I didn't get to see it he didn't testify but my favorite detail
Amry I'm sorry was the purple light do you remember the purple light so the the purple light was on you could come on
over no I wasn't it was I thought you could come over if the purple white was on but Charlie deop I is The Neighbor
Next Door who I just I think he was living vicariously through Tim because Tim had this you know this line of women
coming and going and let's be honest Nikki was drawn to him too um so the line that really struck me was the young
woman who dated him who said it was a high to be around him and she didn't want to get get rid of that high that
that just stays in my head so you know clearly he has some kind of power that comes across to people tell us what Tim
was like at his sentencing he was talking about how uh he really couldn't be judged in a a court of law that only
God could judge him and no remorse never talked about never accepting any responsibility never accepting any
responsibility for Colleen getting in the middle of this it it's as Nikki had said to me afterwards it was a bit of
blaming other people for the situation he was in what's interesting Amar is he told everybody that after he was
arrested there was new evidence that was going to come up and it was going to save him but you know it hasn't happened
yet wow um Colleen Did confess to shooting uh Niki pleaded guilty to aiding and abetting the first-degree
attempted murder of Niki Tim was charged with attempted first-degree premeditated
murder and aiding an accomplice after the fact this was a tough prosecution you know we know Colleen was a shooter
okay Colleen confesses and says she was the shooter but the prosecutors have charged him with the exact same charge
and we know he wasn't there we know he was inside the familywise center so basically what prosecutors had to
convince a jur is that Tim had so much power over calling that he was kind of using her as a weapon that she was his
weapon for shooting um now the the way the law is written if you do enough um to help this happening then you're just
as responsible but as we point out in the hour there was no direct evidence that showed him doesn't show him buying
the gun doesn't show him him putting the gun in her hand yes there were spent shc
casings inside his home but shooter lived inside his home so the idea of getting the jury to believe that he was
involved um and that he used Colleen to do his dirty work that was tough that was really tough the thing about this
Saga is it's likely not over for Nikki uh Tim was sentenced to 18 years in prison uh Colleen was sentenced to 16
and a half years I don't even know if that means that they're going to serve the full term but for sure they're going
to be out it it doesn't seem like they got a lot of time is this typical yeah it is uh unfortunately cuz it's a
tempted murder it would have been very different um yeah they they got the Mex you know so um what's scary is you know
I've done so many stories on stalkers and that's what this is you know domestic violence um will he you know
see the light of day while he's in prison and feel remorse or or will he just kind of stew in prison cuz he'll
get out he could get out in 12 years you know it's possible um and so Nikki's aware of that um her boyfriend now her
husband Donovan Ford is aware of it but no the legal system can only go so far to protect people that's the problem and
we see it all the time yeah you know sort of the lucky thing for both Nikki and her son is that they both have
Donovan and it's sort of remarkable uh they meet at another crime scene a burglary a and he seems just perfect for
her oh my God so you know I asked him you know no offense Donovan but like you just start dating this woman and all of
a sudden her ex starts making your life hell so I finally said to him like why did you stay with her and he just looked
at me he didn't even hesitate and he goes was because I love her I was so touched so touched so out of this awful
awful situation this nightmare relationship Nikki did find true love and a wonderful man um how is Nikki son
doing they say he's doing great they say he is that he's Nikki did tell him that
uh his father tried to kill her he they they had to along with counseling uh but
she says he's doing well right now and they are having another child so you know hopefully he'll be focused more on
school and family and um and get lots of counseling to deal with what is really a
very very tragic situation it really is but um the fact that she survived and is
flourishing um it's one of it's a 148 hours that was inspiring to see her rebuild her life in this way there's
just one other detail I wanted share um when you look at Nikki she looks fine you know barely a scar but what you
don't realize is that she was a singer and she was shot in her neck it she had terrible vocal cord damage and she could
no longer sing so you know she still carries uh scars with her it's a really good reminder Erin um another great
postmortem thank you so much it's always great being here and I'll be back with another show I promise I know you
will um so for everyone be sure to join us next Tuesday then for another postmortem and if you're liking the show
please rate and review 48 Hours on Apple podcast you can watch 48 hours on Saturdays 109 Central on CBS and
streaming on Paramount plus and be sure to follow 48 Hours wherever you get your
podcast you can also listen ad free on the Amazon music and wry app [Music] [Music]
it's a small town it's Rural America in every way this is the family next door very
connected very loving very bonded they spent a lot of time together the happy American
couple Eric ran a successful contracting business he was involved in his boys sports
[Music] activities he was very good to the boys and he taught those boys so much Cory was a real estate agent that
also would buy and fix up and flip homes she was smart she was Savvy she knew how to
connect she was absolutely in love with Eric and absolutely in love with her boys Eric and Corey were probably at the
best place they've ever been in their marriage and seemed genuinely happy with each other they had it all I mean it was
one happy family at 3:00 in the morning I got a phone call and it was Corey and she said
get up here Something's Happened to Eric he went to sleep and never woke up she was a complete
wreck she's sitting on the couch she's just balling were they giving you a sense of
how he may have passed um so the paramedic said an your so we were all believing
aneurism I had saw him the day before he looked horrible he said my chest hurts so the last time you're seeing him
alive you don't think he looked very good right the lead detective and a another officer came to her house and
said they were going to close the case they're done it's an accidental overdose they communicated that Eric had
died of a fentanyl overdose in the weeks and months after Eric's passing how would you describe Corey her
State of Mind emotionally how was she handling things it probably took her two months to go
back in her own bedroom it was devastating to her she writes a children's book she did this to help her work
through the feelings with her children the book I think was 100% beneficial to the boys then you can take
a sigh of relief it's over we're done we can start living again and then I got a
phone call Cory was just arrested in Salt Lake a Summit County woman who wrote a
children's book about coping with grief following her husband's death now accused of being the one that actually
killed him I think she felt that this would be treated as an accident overdose and
nobody was going to be the wiser he told his family if I die you need to take a look at her because I
think she's trying to kill me they're going to have to prove that she got the drugs and that she somehow gave them to
him and unless they can connect those dots they're going to have a hard time proving murder in this case
[Music] [Music] in the early morning hours of March 4th 2022 Lisa Darden was attempting to
console her daughter 31-year-old Corey richens she was brought out on the floor just
sobbing Cory had just learned from emergency Personnel that her husband husband Eric was dead she was tore up
her brothers Ronnie and DJ were also there she was a complete wreck I just started
crying according to Lisa that night Cory had poured Eric a drink to celebrate a new opportunity at her real estate
business the purchase of this Mansion she told me she made him a mosc on mule that's a drink made with vodka and
ginger beer she said they went to bed about 9 9 15 she went and laid with Ash Ashton the
9-year-old has always had major nightmares and when she went back to get in her bed he was
cold she went to push on him and he didn't respond it was after 3:00 a.m. and Lisa
says Corey immediately called 911 and at the dispatcher's instructions performed
CPR when First Responders arrived they started working on Eric but it was too late it's just unbelievable you're in
shock that something like that you know could happen it was those First Responders who initially suspected Eric
had died of an aneurysm the father of three young sons was just 39 how were the boys did the boys know what was
happening they knew something was happening and they could see the ambulances and cops coming in very
distract they all just sat there on the couch and just cried together the sad scene was a far cry
from the happy family they once were Cory and Eric met in 2009 at a local Home Depot back then Cory was a
cashier Eric worked in construction and was a frequent customer I heard that he wanted a number for a long time as kind
of afraid to go get it so he had to have a friend run in and go get it from her Eric asked her out and they hit it off
when Cory said I'm dating this guy what did you think uh Cory was terrified meeting me oh really why because I'm the
big brother and tough yeah yeah but DJ and Ronnie say Eric fit right in I thought he was a great
[Music] guy in 2013 Cory and Eric got married and had the boys first Carter then
Ashton and finally Weston Lisa says fatherhood came easily to Eric he taught those boys so much they
idolized their father and he idolized the boys as [Music] well Cory's family got to know the
richens including Eric's two sisters Katie and Amy they'd come up uh for birthdays here and there and we're all
very friendly eventually Eric started a stonemasonry business and Cory started her own real estate company buying
houses fixing them up and selling them for profit Greg Hall was her marketing director and good friend Cory had
something that a lot of people don't a lot of times you find an individual that is intelligent but no common sense her
common sense and no intelligence she had both she was a brilliant young lady how
many houses would she have on average that she was working on or trying to flip at one time yeah I would say on
average three so it was kind of a constant rotation of buying a home fixing it up selling it
yes and Eric's business continued to flourish they both live very well and they both bought and spent what they
wanted in their spare time Eric loved to hunt and together they traveled the world it sounds like on the surface Eric
and Corey seemed to have it all would you say that was so say that yes I don't know that I can even begin to overstate
how close this family was this was a huge loss Greg scoris is the spokesman for Eric's family he was this beautiful son
and and brother and to have that taken away from you I I can't imagine much worse than
that not long after Eric's funeral an autopsy revealed the cause of his death it wasn't an aneurysm it was a lethal
dose of fentanyl fentanyl is many many times more potent than oxy and the other pain medications that we typically use
it's a very dangerous drug but how did fenel get into Eric's system Cory's family believes his
recreational drug use could be to blame nearly every day they say Eric would take a gummy with THC the psychoactive
ingredient in marijuana it was always just just to relax at the end of the day and
according to Ronnie Eric did not always get the gummies from reputable sources just about every trip that i' had been
on with him he'd buy just from someone off the street Lisa says Eric also sometimes took pain pills hey do you
have any pain pills hey can you call and get hook me up he certainly wasn't an opioid or an illegal drug user Cory's
family thinks Eric had taken something he didn't know was laced with fentanyl and that his death was a tragic
accident Eric's family strong wrly disputes this claim he didn't die of a self-inflicted drug overdose Eric's
family wondered if Corey may have been involved they said this doesn't smell right no question the family thought
that right from the beginning in the months following her husband's tragic death Corey richen struggled to
find her footing on her own and to navigate Life as a single mom Cory was still completely distraught
even now she's never had time to grieve she's doing her best to move on she didn't know of a way of doing that
Cory's brother Ronnie says it was also hard for the couple's three young Sons the boys it's so hard for them they
losted out a little bit cuz they could quite understand what was going on and they needed some help and Cory needed
some help eventually Corey found a way to turn her grief into action in March 2023 one year after Eric's death Cory
came up with the idea to write that children's book about coping with loss are you with me she promoted it on a
local TV show Good Things Utah I just wanted some story to read to my kids at night and so you know I was like let's
just write one this self-published book follows the story of a child who lost his father but is reminded his presence
still exists all around in the book Eric is portrayed as an angel who is always close by yes I am
with you on Christmas Cory writes you can't see my smile but it's there I'm here and we're
together like Dad is still here it's just in a different way Cory's mother Lisa says writing the
book was therapeutic I think the book was a great thing it helped them it helped them all
her family says it finally seemed as though Corey and the boys would be able to move forward it seemed to make the
boys really happy while the family was working to get back on track police had been investigating Eric's death and just
weeks after Cory's appearance on TV to promote her book new 10 this has been a talker all day today a Summit County
woman who wrote a children's book about coping with grief following her husband's death now accused of being the
one that actually killed him on May 8th 2023 Corey The Grieving wife this is the
home where police found Eric Rich's dead was now the prime suspect in her husband's
death you must have been in a panic I was shocked she can't be arrested Utah mother has been charged with
murder Cory was charged with aggravated murder and Tak taken into custody court documents allege she
committed homicide by the administration of a poison Greg scoris the spokesman for Eric's family suspects Corey put a
lethal dose of fentanyl in the drink she made Eric that night the Moscow Mule the
dosage that he was given that night was of such a high level that no person could have survived it Sky Lazaro is her
attorney did police ever test the glass that she gave Eric this cocktail in They seized a number of
items from the home uh and there was no fentanyl that was found on any glass wire Cory's family says they struggle to
make sense of the charges Corey denies any involvement in her husband's death for anybody who knows Corey just knows
she could not have done this she'd never do this Lisa says her daughter and son-in-law had a great relationship
nobody's perfect but they're pretty close and like many couples that have disagreements they were able to overcome
their differences he didn't want Corey to work he wanted her to be a stay-at-home mom
and she's very independent and that wasn't going to happen another issue says Cory's brother Ronnie was the
amount of time Eric spent away on hunting trips sometimes four or five months a year just kind of irked her
because that this his biggest passion his life is hunting and she might want him home a little bit more and so you
know they might get in a fight about that and then according to Cory's mother Lisa there was alleged infidelity on
Eric's part she says she heard about it first from Corey and then from Eric it was a text about trust how I trusted him
as a son-in-law as a father as a husband and how could he do this Cory's family says the couple went to counseling
determined to work through their issues scoris who denies Eric ever cheated on Corey says Eric had a different reason
for wanting to make his marriage work he was going to do whatever he could to make it work because he he
lived for those boys he would have done anything for those boys let's let's go to counseling let's try to keep the
family together scoris says at one point Eric had considered divorce But ultimately decided against it he says to
protect the boys in case the relationship didn't work out Eric put his estate into a secret trust without
telling Corey and named his sister Katie in charge but in the months leading up to
Eric's death Ronnie says the couple seemed better than ever how were they doing as a couple as a family yeah
fantastic they were um probably one of the best spots I've ever seen them in in quite some time everyone's having fun
laughing joking you know it's it seemed really great to me so why would Cory want Eric dead court documents allege a
life insurance payout might have been a motive scorda says Eric's family agrees this is a
coldhearted greed at the time of Eric's death there were at least six life insurance policies on him totaling
nearly $3 million court documents alleg that in January 2022 two months before Eric died
Corey forged Eric's signature to get yet another policy worth an additional $100,000 Corey is also accused in court
documents of stealing from Eric's personal accounts and misappropriating monies distributed from Eric Rich's
business dating back years according to scoris Corey didn't just want the money she desperately
needed it court documents allege her house flipping business was drowning in nearly $2 million of
debt yeah she was in way over her head she needed some money in a hurry was a significant amount of
money scoris says a premarital agreement stipulated Cory had given up claim to Eric's business assets except that if
husband should die prior to wife while the two are lawfully married he was worth much more to her
dad than divorced she felt that that there was easy money and fast money to be made by not having her husband around
anymore Cory's attorney Sky Lazaro strongly disputes any allegations her client forged Eric's signature
mishandled finances or stole from Eric as for the claim Corey was in debt and needed the money she says that's simply
not true she was in the business of flipping houses this is what they did Lazaro says taking on debt from lines of
credit was part of how the business of flipping houses worked and the money would be paid back when a home
sold it's not as if she had all these conventional loans that she owed people money on it sure it looks like a large
number but we're talking about business transactions with people who she did business with Eric and Corey sat down
every month and did the bills together at all times Eric knew what was going in and what was coming out Le says Eric not
only knew about the finances but he was also very supportive of Corey's new business opportunities like the purchase
of the Mansion they were celebrating the night he died Eric saying let's have a shot come on let's celebrate Cory it was
that night sortis says Eric's family believes Cory gave him the Moscow Mule laced with
fenel and he says Eric's family believes it wasn't the first time Cory had tried
tried to poison her husband the time he died wasn't the first time we belied that she tried to
kill [Music] him what do you think happened to Eric richens chat now with the 48 Hours team
on Facebook and X [Music] just outside Salt Lake City in the shadow of Utah's wasach
Mountains Home def Fame ski resorts including Park city is the property that Cory richens
was planning on flipping the deal she and Eric were celebrating the night he died says her attorney Sky Lazaro it's a
decently good size home Lazaro showed us the nearly 10 acre estate where are we give us a sense of why this is
significant real estate so this is the Heber Valley uh right over the hill is Park City all the major ski areas uh and
then to the right is Deer Creek Reservoir so this really sits between major recreational areas it looks
ginormous it's massive the 20,000 ft mansion and its 4,000 ft Guest House were originally
built built in 2017 but never finished the project was abandoned for 2 years until Cory discovered it I think this
was kind of her dream when she got into this idea of flipping houses was to be able to do properties like this lazara
says Corey used financing from a group of investors to make an offer on the house for $39 million the plan was to
develop this turn it into a recreational Hot Spot given this is probably one of the most beautiful places in the world
and hopefully sell it at a profit how much did she think she could make off of this house her and Eric sat down with an
accountant one time and he said if you can get it done and stay under budget you could walk away with $12 million wow
that's a that's a big turn yeah from 3.9 to 12 million yes there's a lot of excitement I remember how excited she
was Greg Hall worked with Corey he says it was a solid investment it would have been a real easy flip they would have
had to to sit on that for long as far as you know Eric was on board with this plan
100% but that's not what Eric's family remembers says their spokesman Greg scoris I don't think he was ever in
favor of that he was on board with supporting his wife that doesn't mean he agreed with it in fact the house is
mentioned in this legal filing containing notes from an investigator who interviewed Eric's family after his
death they said Eric and his wife were arguing about buying the property and that wasn't all Eric's family told
investigators according to that same filing they made numerous allegations against Corey including that they
suspected his wife had something to do with his death they advised he warned them that if anything happened to him
she was to blame they also told investigators they belied Corey had tried to poison Eric before on two
separate occasions according to the filing Eric's family said the first attempted
poisoning was in 2019 when Eric and Corey and six friends were on vacation in Greece they said Eric became
violently ill after Cory gave him a drink Ronnie says he heard it was all a misunderstanding Eric was on medication
and that medication you're not allowed to drink on he asked the waitress uh to bring a a virgin drink a drink without
alcohol she didn't do it it made him very very sick Cy called his doctor figured out what to do and later that
night he was back and and fine everyone that was there will tell you the exact same
thing according to that same filing the second time Eric's family said Cory tried to poison Eric was the month
before Eric died on Valentine's Day 2022 they said his wife brought him a sandwich which after one one bite Eric
broke into hives and couldn't breathe Cory's family denies she ever tried to poison him they ordered a sandwich and
the sandwich was bad he went and took a nap and then went and coached one of his
child's games aside from an assertion by the family uh there doesn't seem to be anything else out there that supports
that Eric's family also called into question Corey's behavior following her husband's death
according to court documents Eric's family told investigators 2 days after Eric died Corey punched Eric's sister
Amy in the neck and face when Amy tried to stop her from opening a safe they said contained between
125,000 and $165,000 cash there was an argument that broke out and Eric's sister said that
she owns the house everything is put into a trust and she owns the house remember Eric had created that
trust and kept it secret from Corey when they were going through those marital problems until Eric's death Corey knew
nothing about the trust according to court documents if Eric had any sort of documents he'd have him in the safe so
she went in to go see what was in there Amy came after Cory and you know Cory defended herself the two of them started
pushing and I was standing in the middle of them all they did was push both of them were trying to swing over the top
of me so the narrative that's been pushed that it was poor Amy got assaulted was nonsense the brothers say
Amy stormed off and called the police a month later Cory was charged with assault and later pleaded no
contest her husband's just passed away she's highly emotional everybody's highly emotional things got a little
heated between them two families two very different stories of about what they believe
happened to Eric but with accusations flying back and forth what did the evidence show the state has to prove
that she did this that she got the drugs and that she somehow gave them to him she had apparently contacted a drug
dealer a known drug dealer in that area and purchased fentel and had done it on more than one occasion
all right now back have a seat please in June 2023 Corey richens appeared in court
before judge Richard morazzi for a bond hearing the issue before the court is whether defendant Cory richen should
continue to be held without bail during the pre-trial period it was the first time since richens had been charged in
her husband's death that the public got to see her and for the entire 4-Hour hearing she sat in handcuffs next to her
attorney Sky Lazaro I cannot imagine how difficult it was for Cory to sit there and listen to everything that was talked
about at that hearing to convince the judge why richens should not be released prosecutors Patricia Cassel we have
three Witnesses Brad Bloodworth detective what was the Sheriff's Office and Joseph Hill presented evidence and
called witnesses to make their case richens had poisoned her husband it had all the elements of a mini trial in
order for the judge to make a determination to detain someone at a bail hearing the state has to prove
substantial evidence prosecutor Joseph Hill Called To The Stand cell phone expert Chris cotos so if you'd step in
front of Britney will get you forn he asked him about Google searches he says Rich's made on her phone were you able
to observe uh internet searches on that phone yes those searches which were detailed
in court documents included can deleted text messages be retrieved from an iPhone can FBI find deleted messages
what is a lethal dose of fenel I don't know that these searches mean as much when you look at the timing
of when they're done Lazaro says there's an innocent explanation those searches were conducted after Eric's death I
think it's more to answer questions relating to what she was being accused of the state also called to this stand
the lead investigator on the case detective Jeff O'Driscoll I was assigned to be the lead
lead detective in this case in April of this year prosecutor Bloodworth questioned detective O'Driscoll about
where richens may have gotten fenel he specifically asked about an interview the detective conducted with Carmen
laber who said she worked for richens she's referred to as cl cl is an associate of the defendant uh she
cleaned houses for the defendant's business as well as her personal home at times detective O'Driscoll said CL had a
criminal history with drugs at the time of their interview she was on probation for multiple drug distribution charges
according to court records she has not been charged in connection with Eric's death in our interviews CL told us that
in early 2022 the defendant reached out to her either by phone call or text message
requesting that she procure fentanyl for what the defendant reported was a investor who had a back injury detective
O'Driscoll testified that CL told him she purchased 15 to 30 fenyl pills and then sold them to richens seal told us
that after purchasing the pills she returned home she said that either later that night or the next day the defendant
met her and did a hand-to-hand exchange of pills for cash that transaction says detective O'Driscoll took place on
February 11th 2022 3 days before Valentine's Day when according to court documents Eric's
family said richens had tried and failed to poison Eric with that sandwich but there was more but an now shift to a
second drug buy detective O'Driscoll said CL told him richens contacted her again approximately a week later the
defendant reached out to her again by text or or call and said that she wanted some more fentanyl that was stronger
than the previous batch this time to detective O'Driscoll said Cel told him Rich's paid by check and the defendant
came to the door and wrote her a check from her business from the defendant's business for
$1,300 for the purchase of the fentol just a week later Eric was dead we dispute all of those allegations in her
cross-examination Lazaro asked detective O'Driscoll if there could have been another reason for that $1,300 check it
could very well be that Cory was paying her for cleaning houses correct I don't want to speculate but it could be
despite what CL said correct okay Lazaro says because Carmen lobber is a convicted felon she's not credible she
was on probation at the time I think anytime you have an informant type situation uh it can call into question
the veracity of their statements or the motive for what they're saying in her cross-examination of detective odris SCH
Lazaro attempted to show how CL might have felt pressured to tell investigators what they wanted to hear
you begin the interview by explaining to se essentially how dire of a situation she's in
cracked I don't have the interview memorized but I know we talked about that yes okay well you told her that she
was on probation to drug court for four first-degree felonies correct correct you essentially tell her that she has
the potential of doing a considerable amount of state and federal prison time potentially yes this is a common tactic
in law enforcement to be able to leverage charges for information Lazaro also asked the detective what evidence
there was to back up cl's claims that she had sold fenel to richens because CL is working for the defendant there's
communication correct correct but detective O'Driscoll said he saw no text messages where richens allegedly asked C
for drugs we didn't find any it was anyone with her that could corroborate that she saw CL hand Corey
drugs not that I know of 48 Hours attempted to contact CL for comment we receive no
response they have to prove that she obtained drugs and gave them to her husband and unless they can connect
those dots they're going to have a hard time proving murder in this [Music] case what do you make of Cory's Google
searches for a timeline of the case visit us at 48 [Music] hours.com as Corey Rich's bond hearing
came to a close her attorney Sky Lazaro was hopeful her client would be granted bail this is a case in which there
doesn't appear to be any Smoking Gun these cases are generally more favorable to the defense good morning the
prosecution closed its case to deny Rich's bail with a victim impact statement from Eric's sister Amy I'm
here today to represent my brother Eric Eugene richens Eric is gone and I am brokenhearted none of our Lives will
ever be the same Eric died under horrendous circumstances I am tormented at the thought of what he endured please do not
allow Corey to hurt Eric's memory our family friends and Community anymore we have been through
enough judge Richard morazzi spent very little time making his decision richens would remain in custody the
circumstances of this case weigh soundly against granting pre-trial release of any kind Rich and's family was
disappointed they say her time in jail while waiting for her trial has taken its toll I hear her on the phone I hear
her sobbing in September 2023 Rich's family says she had a medical emergency in custody while taking prescription
medications and needed to be rushed to the hospital what did she say happened to her that they gave her the wrong
medicine and it caused a seizure richens made full recovery but while she was away jail officials say they found this
handwritten letter in her cell that was never sent the document later filed in the court record has become known for
the word scrolled at the top of the page walk the dog prosecutors say it's from richens to her mother I take care of her
16-year-old dog and her thing is be sure you walk her she's so worried about this
dog in November 2023 prosecutors filed this motion asking the court for a no contact order to deny Rich and's access
to her mother and brother in the motion they say the letter is evidence of witness tampering they say richens gives
her mother instructions on what her brother Ronnie should say in court the letter instructs Lisa Darden to induce
the defendant's brother Ronald Darden to testify falsely the motion states to me
this letter is an attempt to get a witness to testify to something that isn't true by spoon feeding the witness
the testimony that he's supposed to give in the letter richens writes that her defense will need to establish that Eric
bought drugs while traveling abroad we need some kind of connection here's what I'm thinking but you have to talk to
Ronnie he would probably have to testify to this in the letter it appears that she's laying out a little bit of her
defense for example your name is brought up Eric told Ronnie he gets pain pills and Fentanyl from Mexico almost like
she's laying out a case M saying tell Ronnie richens goes on to write Ronnie should have texts from Eric talking
about getting high as well reword this however he needs to to make the point just include it all the connection has
to be made with Mexico and drugs is she giving you instruction in this letter I don't know I don't know one way or
another um most of that unfortunately I can't speak about the things that are in the
letter are true things and everybody who's in her Circle already knew this but Corey has a different
explanation she says the letter is fiction in separate phone calls from jail that were recorded and later
entered into the court record she told her mother and Ronnie that the letter was part of a book she's been writing
and that it's private the judge denied the motion for no contact saying the state had failed to prove witness
tampering it isn't witness tampering cuz it didn't go anywhere and it was never communicated to
anyone as the families wait for the trial they say their focus is on Eric and Corey's Three
Sons the family is concerned about the boys that's the main focus the boys that's who's important here right now
both families say they hope to gain custody the boys are currently living with a member of Eric's family Lisa says
they're only allowed to speak to their mother twice a week on a video call just heart-wrenching as to what they're going
through Lisa Ronnie and DJ have been denied private visits with the kids bisa says she does what she can to support
them and attends all their Sports practices and the reason I can do that it's a public place I can't be stopped
from going there I still get to see them I still get a hug and kiss and that keeps me
going besides the criminal case which could carry a sentence of 25 years to life there are multiple ongoing civil
cases regarding the fate of Eric's estate both sides believe the other is after the money both families are
concerned about the boys you could say that you could say that I wouldn't we believe that the defendant's family is
concerned about the money that they can get whoever ends up with the boys ends up with the money that's all they want
it's not right until that's resolved both families are waiting for the trial to start and are hoping for a verdict
that delivers their version of Justice what is the family doing to stay strong now you know the family has the family
they have each other they feel like the state has put together a good case and they're going to stay United and and
support each other no matter what happens in this case she's innocent she's been thrown in jail over something
that she hasn't committed are you both confident that Corey will be found not guilty Lisa I am 100% 100% she'll be
[Music] out they were given like sentences for their notorious crime what did these
parents do to deserve that now they're hoping new evidence could reopen the case My Hope in the case is that they'll
finally walk out of prison have the Menendez brothers been punished enough 48 hours Saturday on CBS and streaming
on Paramount [Music] [Applause] [Music] plus hello everyone I'm anarie green and
welcome welcome back to postmortem this week we're talking about Corey richens and you may recall she wrote a book on
Grief to help her children cope with their dad's death after an apparent accidental fenel overdose she wrote the
book about a year after he passed away but then a month after that the case took a turn Corey was the one charged
with his alleged murder so joining me now to take us behind the scenes of this case our 48 Hours correspondent Natalie
Morales and producer Betsy Schuler hi Amory hey we're happy to be here so this case got a lot of attention in part
because of a children's book that Corey wrote about grieving the death of her husband Eric who died in March of 2022
yeah I mean it was that was the the headline that captivated I think the the nation's attention you know just weeks
before she's arrested she's goes on good things Utah local TV show and you know that she's on to talk about this book
and how how to you know help her children learn how to cope with grief um interesting now though some viewers at
the time thought she seemed a little cold a little bit emotionless while talking about her husband's death and
what the family was going through uh it could be though also that she might have
been just a little bit nervous being on television it's hard to say you know what she was feeling in that moment um
but you know it's interesting to look back on that interview now than knowing that she would be charged with his
murder yeah cuz I think the headline was she's on TV you know out there as The Grieving wife and then turns around and
gets arrested right it's one of those cases of perhaps Everything Is Not What It Seems right and that's a theme that
comes up a lot in some of these 48 hours so one of the things that really stood out to me has to do with the families
they both have access to the same series of facts essentially but they interpret
them completely differently they have different stor to explain what happened Eric is the victim his family believes
that he was poisoned deliberately poisoned that his wife Corey put a lethal amount of fentanyl in a drink she
told police they had a drink the night he died and according to to Corey's family you know we talked to to Lisa
Darden her mother as well as her two brothers Corey said she poured Erica a Moscow Mule earlier that evening to
celebrate what was then considered a big real estate deal that she had done she purchased a mansion in Utah so after she
has this celebratory drink with Eric she then said that you know the couple went
to bed her nine-year-old son uh suffers from nightmares so she went to comfort her nine-year-old son when she went back
to bed she said she found Eric cold and unresponsive according to Corey's mom she called 911
immediately and so their version of events is this was an accident and that Eric perhaps took something that he
didn't know was laced with fenel um Corey's family they have all said that Eric liked to take a gummy before going
to bed um a THC laced gummy yeah they say that he could have accidentally taken a gummy um that he didn't know had
fentol in um and obviously that's very very different than what Eric's family thinks
so in a way it's no surprise that both families come to different conclusions based on what they know about the
relationship and you know what happened the night before but how did investigators close the case because
they come to the conclusion that Eric's death uh because of a lethal dose ofel was a deliberate act they arrest Corey
they charge her with her husband's alleged murder what what was it that brought them to that conclusion well a
lot of that has to do with Eric's family pushing investigators to get Corey looked into they claimed that Eric had
had warned them and told them you know if something happens to me Corey is to blame and as we report in the hour you
know Eric's family actually believes that she tried to poison him on two other occasions there is no proof of
that but the family's claims are included in a court filing against Corey yeah and this investigation took months
you know she didn't get arrested um till about a year later so you know the police took some of this information
that the family told them and did what seems to be a thorough investigation but it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to what
the family said it doesn't seem you know it's interesting we talked to um Corey's
attorney as well and for every point that Eric's family makes sky Lazaro her attorney has a Counterpoint for example
you know even though the family said you know there had been two other occasions
of alleged poisoning nobody called police Sky points out nobody filed reports on previous instances of of any
poisoning so there's really no direct evidence there it's only really circumstantial evidence pointing to
Corey at this point yeah and as Sky told us there doesn't seem to be a Smoking Gun so to speak right so according to a
court filing Corey was under a significant amount of debt she had this real estate business where she was
flipping homes uh Eric's family says all of the debt was Corey's actual motive for killing her husband so here's Greg
scordis the spokesman for Eric's family she was in way over her head she needed some money in a hurry it was a
significant amount of money scoris say a premarital agreement stipulated Cory had given up claim to
Eric's business assets except that if h hband should die prior to wife while the
two are lawfully married he was worth much more to her dad then divorced she felt that there
was easy money and fast money to be made by not having her husband around anymore I thought that was so
interesting that they made that agreement before they got married cuz I thought when you're in the business of
real estate it is kind of like you go into debt in order to get out of debt like it's half of is is about debt
management yeah I mean that's exactly what um Corey's family and her attorney told us you know if one house is $2
million she'd essentially automatically carry $2 million of debt so they don't make much of this point um because they
say it was just normal business for her MH also her attorney points out that she
had other investors it's not like she's taking on this debt alone you know you take on debt and you pay it back when
the house sells and hopefully for profit yeah exactly you try to get it done and
uh then you collect the money and then you you start all over again with another sort of sounds it is yeah I know
that's why there's like all these shows on TV where everyone's doing it but I digress um but so at the time of Eric's
death there were six life insurance policies on him according to that Court filing six life insurance policies that
sounds like a lot I mean how did the defense explain that yeah it does it does seem like a lot um
the one point that Corey's attorney Sky Lazaro had was most of these were policies that had been in place for
Years also one of the policies was for Eric's um stonemasonry business so you know that's how she counters that you
know one is his business the others are as you acrew wealth in life you know your circumstances change you have to
reup your policy or you take out supplemental policies but Eric's family said says no these are all red flags all
of these policies amount to Corey trying to profit once he died right and you know though most of these insurance
policies had been taken out sort of years before you know we seen the court documents that there was one that was
not right the documents say that Corey took out yet another life insurance policy worth an additional 100 Grand it
was taken out just two months before Eric died and there's a question about the signature the prosecutor computers
um in court documents they say that Cory forged Eric's signature in order to get
this policy right and the defense will say you know that Corey did not Forge his signature when it goes to trial I
think that's where the handwriting experts and all the forensic experts might come in you know the other thing
that um her attorney Sky Lazaro told us was that for most of these policies Eric
had to sit for a medical exam so you know he would know these were were taken out and so that sort of goes to did she
or did she not Forge his signature so one of the things that really surprised me about how this story
unfolded is just how immediately Eric's family starts zeroing in on Corey why was Eric's family so
quick to believe that she would be guilty of something like this well first of all we would have loved to have asked
Eric's family that question um according to their spoke man um Greg scoris you know the marriage wasn't going well um
according to Cory's family there were some bumps in the road but they had worked things out and were doing really
well before Eric's death so again you know two very conflicting stories but yet you've got this trust that was
formed for the kids that Eric never told Corey about and we only find out about that and she only found out about it
once he died right so maybe will hear more about their marriage during a trial but what is particularly unique about
this hour is that this case has not gone to trial so we're going to take a bit of
a break but after the break we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about the difficulty when it comes to
covering a pre-trial [Music] case welcome back everyone all right let's get into this how difficult is it
covering a pre-trial case compared to covering a case that's already gone to trial it's really difficult we we did
have some things working for us on this case there were a lot of documents filed
into the court record that were available to us so we were able to report on what those filings said you
know we also were able to at least speak with somebody on both sides but it's it's it's hard but the other thing that
worked in our favor is there were pre-trial hearings for example her bail hearing where it seemed almost like it
played out as a mini trial and you had evidence presented on both sides of the case so that was very helpful in
constructing this hour I was surprised at how open Corey's mom was because obviously one of the concerns when you
haven't gotone to trial yet is that you're going to say something that's going to taint the trial I think she
wanted to tell her story and I think the brothers wanted to tell their story because at least from what they said it
felt like they hadn't had a chance to do that so I think they were really open to
the opportunity was there an attempt to talk to Eric's family yeah we did reach out um to Eric's family uh through their
spokesperson Greg scoris and um we really you know were hoping to talk to his family but it seemed that they're
not quite ready to talk to us yet mhm so a big problem for the prosecution though
going to trial will be proving murder when all the evidence against Cory richens really seems circumstantial can
the prosecution actually prove that there was fenel in that Moscow Mule yeah I mean that would be the Smoking Gun
right there yeah um we don't know for sure if they tested the actual glass so Corey had told police she gave Eric a
Moscow Mule that night but they didn't take any items out of the home that night they
searched the home officially about 2 weeks later they did take some items and they didn't find fentanyl on any of
those some of those were drinking glasses and other things but there's no way to know for sure if that actual
glass had been tested really the only you know way to connect Corey to fenel really comes down to a woman named
Carmen lobber who Corey had employed to be a house cleaner for her real estate business you know she was somebody who
had a history a criminal history with drug charges she's a convicted felon and she becomes is and is going to be a a
key witness in in what will be the trial the prosecution has to prove that Corey
got drugs so Carmen lobber according to the prosecution is that link right so they call her CL in the hour but there's
like a huge problem with her and it has to do with her credibility right right uh you know Sky Lazaro uh Corey's
defense attorney believes that c was coerced by police that she changed her story every time uh that she was
questioned and interviewed by investigators um you know it'll come down to was there a text exchange
between CL Carmen lber and Corey um there's no proof of an exchange right now but I think that'll come down
to cell phone forensics again that will all come to play in a trial um so did you try to get in contact with C at all
we did we we tried to reach out to her um a couple of times and we didn't get any
response um so there's another daming piece of evidence against Corey and it's the Google searches right she made them
on her cell phone including you know searches about the lethal dosea fenel a search about whether the FBI can recover
deleted text messages but attorney Lazaro says that Corey made those searches after Eric was already dead and
S she sort of argues that makes them irrelevant but how do they know that for sure well she says that these were
searches that Corey was doing based on what she was being accused of um and they know that was after Eric died
because the first police search where they tested some of the stuff from the house was weeks after Eric died at that
point they took Cory's phone so Cory had to get a second phone police did a second search of the house when Corey
was arrested a year later and these Google searches were found on that phone hm okay but there was certainly some
very interesting searches and I think that's going to be a big part of the trial for example Le you know one of the
things that Corey um searched for according to court violing and according to the testimony we heard in that bail
hearing is how long does life insurance companies take to pay um if someone is poisoned what does it go down on the
death certificate um you know and of course what is a lethal dose of feny that will
be a red flag to to many yeah I mean these Google searches you know on the surface don't sound good right um so
Corey's been in jail since her arrest last May jail officials found a letter in her cell in which prosecutors say
that she's instructing her brother on how to testify asking him to make a connection between Eric buying pain
pills from Mexico Cory says that the letter was part of a fictional book that she was writing but her mother told you
something different what did her mom have have to say yeah it's it's interesting in that letter um there is
you know conflicting explanations really from from what Corey's family is telling
us her brother Ronnie said he didn't want to talk about the he couldn't talk about the specifics because it's you
know it's a court document now but Lisa and DJ her other brother said that you know everything in the letter is true
however according to recorded phone calls um in in jail Corey talks to her mom and Ronnie and says you know the
letter is actually part of a book that she's writing so you know it's interesting to hear all these different
points this is another headline grabbing piece of this story and the question is
whether or not it's witness tampering because is she instructing her brother Ronnie on on what he should say and
where possible drugs were purchased in Mexico and trying to link that to to Eric I'm glad you explained that Natalie
because when I I heard about the letter I thought to myself well what's wrong with that we should mention too that the
court ultimately decided there wasn't enough evidence to prove witness tampering why did Greg scoris find the
letter so problematic so here's what Greg scoris says is the problem with the letter not necessarily that you know
Corey's saying hey remember to say this this and this the way she words certain parts and we detail some of that in the
hour really seems like she's saying you have to say this so that's a distinction
that he points out M um so Natalie you actually visited this like enormous house that Corey was attempting to
purchase um before Eric's death it's like what it's 20,000 square feet or something like that yeah I mean it is
huge and the property it's right there at the base of Park City so it would be viewed as you know probably a pretty
valuable piece of property and house um the guest house in itself was I want to say a mere 4,000 square feet which is
you know larger than most people's homes which is crazy to think about what makes
this house important is it is sort of at the center of the of the argument here because Corey according to her family
and her attorney this was her dream right this was like the big project that was you know going to take her business
to the next level they say Eric was excited about it but according to court documents Eric's family says they were
arguing about this and that Eric wasn't on board with this let's hear a clip from Sky Lazaro and Lisa Darden about
the house the plan was to develop this turn it into a recreational Hot Spot given this is probably one of the most
beautiful places in the world and hopefully sell it at a profit how much did she think she could make off of this
house her and Eric sat down with an accountant one time and he said if you could get it done and stay under budget
you could walk away with $12 million wow that's a that's a big turn yeah you know
Sky Lazaro her defense attorney describes it is is really sort of this wasted opportunity that in in some ways
is sort of a metaphor of what ends up becoming this relationship there was so much going for it and then this tragedy
struck and then now you have what it is this D capitated mess of a house um eventually it did sell but uh for for
much less than what even Corey paid for it wow this this really is a tragic story do we have any idea when it may be
going to trial so what we're hearing from Cory's attorney is that there's still preliminary hearing and that she
expects the trial to be sometime next year MH right at the end of the hour we get a little bit of an update on the
three boys do we have any idea how they're doing we know they're with a member of Eric's family at the moment
and that both sides say they they want custody of the kids and Corey's family you know they say that they haven't had
much interaction with the boys that they have you know not been able to really see them except Corey's mother says she
has gone to their sporting events because it's public property so she she can be there to support the young boys
but again it's these children sadly are caught in the middle of these two feuding families and
you know you just hope for a positive outcome for for the young boys which I think both sides it's one one area where
both families can come together on is the well-being of those three children yeah um well Natalie and Betsy this is
obviously a to be continued 48 Hours um because I'm sure you're going to follow up as the case unfolds as it goes to
trial but it was really great talking about one of these kind of rip from the headline cases and to learn just how
much has unfolded before we even get to the the trial stage so thank you so much
guys thank you thanks for having us as for user will join us next Tuesday for another postmortem and watch 48
Hours of course it's Saturdays 109 Central on CBS and streaming on Paramount plus and if you are liking the
show please rate and review 48 hours on Apple podcast and follow 48 Hours wherever you get your podcast you can
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[Music]

Catch up on "48 Hours" and the "Post Mortem" podcast with the crews that investigate shocking true crime cases, including "The Night of the Idaho Student Murders," "The Death of an Officer's Wife," "Who Wanted Nicki Lenway Dead?" and "The People v. Kouri Richins."

00:00 The Night of the Idaho Student Murders | Full Episode + Post Mortem 01:11:20 The Death of an Officer's Wife | Full Episode + Post Mortem 02:20:02 Who Wanted Nicki Lenway Dead? | Full Episode + Post Mortem 03:23:51 The People v. Kouri Richins | Full Episode + Post Mortem

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the murder of four Idaho students and the trial of Brian Kohberger, featuring family insights and investigative details.

Key points

The Discovery of Evidence. Olivia uncovers crucial evidence that connects Kaylee and Maddie to their last moments.
Searching for Justice. The Gonzales family prepares for trial, determined to seek justice for their daughter.
Uncovering Key Evidence. Olivia Gonzales tracks down a ride share driver crucial to the timeline of events.
The Call for Help. Days before her death, Amanda calls 911, fearing for her safety.
Suspicion of Suicide. Amanda's sisters believe she would never take her own life, suspecting foul play.
Sheriff's Manipulation. The sheriff's interrogation reveals a manipulative nature, claiming his wife executed herself.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is not a civilian knife; it was meant to tear apart bone.

Discussion of the brutality of the murder weapon.

19:54WatchFeb 28, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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