Palace of Justice | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

Greetings to you all. Uh my name is Benjamin Ferencz and I'm being interviewed uh in Delray Beach, Florida
with a request to give you an outline of what I've been doing with my life and some things which may be of interest and
hopefully will lead to a more humane and better world. I met Benjamin Ferencz at his home. We
sat side by side in two computer chairs at his desk. And if I had any idea that I was going to be the one leading the
conversation, I quickly learned I was wrong. Where did I get these peculiar ideas?
Well, I was born 99 years ago in a little village in Transylvania. Now, I know that most of you've never
heard of Transylvania, although you have some connection with my Uncle Dracula. Of course, there is no such uncle, but
there was a Transylvania. Everything about him seems much younger than his 99 years. Part of that might be
because of his morning routine. Well, I wake up usually about 7:00 in the morning. The first thing I do is a
physical routine while before I get out of bed. I raise my feet and I wiggle my toes and I
turn my legs around in circles and do that for quite a bit. And then I do uh 25 situps in bed. Uh then I get out
of bed, right? Then after some toiletries, I go to another room. I breathe the air, open
the door, take deep breathing 25 times in and out while I bend over and do other things, wave with my hands around.
Then I do the world famous world famous 125 pushups. And then of course, I go swimming.
I've never met anybody like him. He has a wild sense of humor that I wasn't expecting from someone who's had such a
serious career. Benjamin Ferencz is the last surviving prosecutor of what's been called the
largest murder trial in history. A trial with more than a million victims. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
[Music] My sister was born in the same bed that I was born a year and a half earlier.
And the one thing we had in common with it, whatever it was called Hungary or Romania, was that they persecuted the
Jews and there were no work for them. So, my parents decided after they had two little babies
to take up the babies and look for a better place to live. We sailed away on a ship across the
Atlantic to New York in December of 1921. We traveled third class because there was no fourth class. Uh
we arrived in New York Harbor with no money, no friends, no language, no skills.
Let me skip along because it's been a long life. Benjamin Ferencz was admitted to a New
York City high school for gifted students and went on to enter Harvard Law School. Then the war broke out while
I was in school. Japan attacked the United States. Everybody that I knew went down to enlist. I went too.
He wanted to work in intelligence, but he wasn't eligible because he was an immigrant. His second choice was to
become an Air Force pilot, but he was rejected because they said he wasn't tall enough.
So, he enlisted in the army and was assigned to the 115th AAA Gun Battalion. He landed on the Normandy beaches and in
the coming months fought in most of the major battles in World War II, Normandy,
the Siegfried Line, Final Battle of the Bulge. And then, because he'd done a lot of
research on war crimes in law school, he was assigned to work on the newly forming US War Crimes Branch.
Will you explain to me what a war crime is? A war crime, technically, is simply uh a violation of the rules of warfare
which have been agreed to in a number of treaties, most of them signed in The Hague under sponsorship of the Swiss
government. For example, uh we've had war crimes beginning since war began. War began with little David hitting
Goliath in the head with a rock. Well, times have changed. When we began when the Germans began dropping poison gas
into the trenches in World War the world came together with the first Hague Conventions saying
some things you cannot do in a war. You cannot shoot your enemy in the back. You
cannot you refuse to take prisoners. You cannot use poison gas. Uh trying to make war more humane. That is
absurd. Absolutely absurd. Uh I can assure any of your listeners that when a war is on, the war crimes rules as laid
down in the war are forgotten. Your problem is you kill the other guy before he kills you.
Most of the cases he investigated involved German soldiers killing American prisoners.
He says he sometimes had to dig up bodies of American pilots who'd been shot down and beaten to death.
He would write a report describing the crime, listing suspects, and naming which laws of war had been violated.
And then, his assignment changed. We begin getting reports that there are people coming out of
looks like work camps and they're all dressed in something looks like pajamas. And they all look like they're dying.
They're skinny. The first concentration camp Benjamin Ferencz was ordered to visit was one of
the largest, Buchenwald. An estimated 56,000 prisoners were killed there before it was liberated in
1945. Concentration camps were being liberated one after another and Benjamin Ferencz
was assigned to get to them and collect as much evidence as possible as quickly as possible.
He was looking for official camp records, registries of who had been killed, and which German guards and
officers had done the killing. How many camps did you actually go to to take reports?
have been about 10 camps. They didn't I didn't count them. I moved as fast as I could from one camp to another. Uh
the Hal, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Flossenbürg, Gross-Rosen, uh a whole series of camps. As fast as I could get,
the front was moving forward rapidly and I was following the front. I was getting
reports from headquarters as to where the action was and uh I would seize all the records in the
camp. I would go to the camp commander, uh the German who was in charge and the American who was in charge and I'd say,
"I'm here on orders of President of the United States and I want 10 men immediately surround the Schreibstube,
which is the office where the records are. Nobody goes in or out without my permission." And I'd seize them the uh
record keeping office where they kept records. The Germans, God bless them, are very careful. When they murder
somebody, they keep a list. First they want to know his name. They want to know how old he is, where he came from. And
uh I had the Totenbuch. The Totenbuch were the death registries of how many people were killed.
One of the inmates, he grabbed me when I came in. He hugged me and he said, "I've been waiting for you."
I can't I have difficulty recalling these stories because I'm still emotionally affected with what I saw. Uh
and he led me to a place near the barbed wire electrified wire around the camp. He had a shovel
with him and he dug up a little wooden box. Inside the box were identity cards, little booklets like a passport the
German soldiers would have stamped whenever they came and went. When when this little passport book was
filled, they got another one. He was supposed to destroy the old one. He didn't. He kept them.
Now, every time he did that, he took his life into his hands. They would have shot him dead on the spot if
they had seen what he was doing. And he held them. And those were then he buried them in a
box near the fence waiting for the liberation day. That of course was an invaluable piece
of evidence as to who was in the camp at what time. What were you thinking after seeing all
the things that you had seen? I was not thinking. I shut off my brain. This is not real. These are not human beings.
These are victims here and I can't stop and and and think and think and I just get your job done. Get your
job done. Get the hell out of here. There was disease rampant. Dysentery, diarrhea, rats,
filth, uh and uh get out and get out write your report. And I wrote my reports first chance I
got, you know, and uh with all the information, who was in the camp, who were the commanders, how many
people were there. It was necessary. When he visited the Ebensee concentration camp in Austria, he
described in a letter that prisoners were so frail, many were being carried like babies to a field hospital. He
wrote, "No one who has not seen it can visualize the scene." The inmates caught one of the guards
and uh they beat him up. I was there when they caught him, when they beat him. Uh they then took him to the crematorium
and put him in alive. Uh they strapped him to the gurney, which is what they used, a metal gurney,
to slide the bodies into the oven. They put him in, started to cook him, and they pulled him
out. He was still alive. They beat him up again, and then they put him in again.
And they cooked him slowly. These were the prisoners who were killing the guards.
Vengeance. Um that's inevitable outcome. Did I try to stop it? I did not. Um could I have stopped it? Probably
not. Um Do I remember it? I do. What's the next question? On the day after Christmas in 1945, he
was discharged with the rank of sergeant. He went back to New York, got married to
his long-time girlfriend Gertrude, and planned to practice law. At the same time, a trial was beginning
in Germany. Leaders of the Nazi Party were being prosecuted by an international military
tribunal. The trial was taking place in a town called Nuremberg, at the Palace of
Justice. This was the first Nuremberg trial. Nothing like it had ever been done before.
It was controversial. The guilt of the defendants wasn't really in question, so some wondered about the trial's
legitimacy. But the American chief prosecutor, Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson,
said it was important to create a detailed record of what had happened under Hitler's regime.
He said that if a record was not made, {quote} "Future generations would not believe how horrible the truth was."
12 more trials would follow, and Benjamin Ferencz was sent to Berlin to search Nazi offices and archives for
evidence of crimes committed not only by Nazi leaders, but also doctors, lawyers,
and businessmen. So we want to put the doctors on trial for medical experiments. We want to put
the lawyers on for perverting the law. We want to put the SS on for mass murder. We want to put the foreign
ministers on trial for trying to hoodwink the rest of the world. We want to explain how it was that a civilized
country like Germany could allow these things to happen and to make them happen and to do things which they
did. Over the course of his research in Berlin, he identified another group he thought should be tried, the
Einsatzgruppen. The word Einsatz means action. Gruppen is groups. And these action groups were assigned
to kill without pity or remorse every single Jewish man, woman, or child they could lay their hands on, and to do the
same with Gypsies and anybody else who might be a suspected potential enemy of the Reich.
And there were 3,000 men divided into groups A, B, C, and D. I came upon reports of these
Einsatzgruppen, daily reports, top secret, sent from the front to Berlin, where they were consolidated
and sent out, and I had a distribution list of 99 people who later said I didn't know anything about it. And they
reported faithfully who was the commander in charge, how many Jews they killed, in which town.
And I had a little adding machine. I added them up. When I reached a million, over a million people murdered by these
groups. I said, "We have to put on those trial." Benjamin Ferencz flew the records to
Nuremberg and showed them to the chief prosecutor and asked for an additional trial.
He said, "No, we can't. Depending on his approved the budget, we cannot expect any additional uh trials because there's
a lot of opposition to it as well, and all the lawyers are assigned. The other trials already started."
And I said, "You cannot let these million murderers get go go. This is the biggest murder trial in history. We
cannot just simply say because we run out of space or money, you can't you can't let them go." And uh
he said, "Well, can you do it in addition to your other work of supervising the search for documents?" I
said, "Sure." He said, "Okay, you're it." So I became the chief prosecutor of what later was known as the biggest
murder trial in human history. [Music] Benjamin Ferencz was assigned to be the chief prosecutor for the Einsatzgruppen
case. He was only 27 years old, and he had never tried a case before. He says he'd never even been to court.
There were 22 defendants, members of these special so-called action groups. I said, "Look, I don't want to talk to
these defendants. I had researchers who spoke German, German refugees. Uh I want you to go down and interrogate
this guy. I want to know everything about him from the moment he was born. You get all the information back to me,
but I didn't want to talk to any of them. I said, 'I'll see them in the courtroom.'
Uh and I didn't want to set up any human connection um because I had picked the defendants,
and I had picked them out of a list of 3,000. We had the roster. All of them were high-ranking. I had six
generals, something on I don't remember the count. And I selected them. How did you Why did you select those
that were higher rank? Because responsibility begins at the top. It doesn't begin
at the bottom. Lothar Fendler. How do you plead to this indictment? Guilty or not guilty?
Nicht schuldig. Waldemar Schütz. Heinz Schubert. How do you plead? Guilty or not guilty?
[Music] Nicht schuldig. You're now ready to hear the presentation by the prosecution. Here's
Benjamin Ferencz. This was the tragic fulfillment of a program of intolerance and
arrogance. Vengeance is not our goal. Nor do we seek merely a just retribution. We ask this court
to affirm by international penal action man's right to live in peace and dignity
regardless of his race or creed. The case we present is a plea of humanity to law.
And uh they didn't ask for the death penalty. I gave it very deep thought, what am I
going to ask for? You got these 22 guys there. They have murdered over a million
people. There's no question about their guilt. Should you chop them up into a million
pieces and feed them to the dogs? I said, "That would be ridiculous." Uh just hang them, shoot them, take them
out, and have a public display? I said, "No, it'd be ridiculous, too." I said, "If it's going to have any
meaning to this trial, we have to be aware, first, that the victims were slaughtered
because they didn't share the race, the religion, and or the ideology of their executioners."
I said, "If I could turn that around and make it a crime to kill somebody because he doesn't
share your race, your color, or your political persuasion. Uh if you can get that a crime against humanity, if you
can get that out, then you will protect future generations, at least to some extent, and it would be worthwhile and
more meaningful than what you do with these 22 murderers." The 22 defendants are found guilty of
membership in a criminal organization, war crimes, and of committing crimes against humanity.
14 of the 22 were sentenced to death. [Music] My personal reaction was very somber.
I didn't say, "Hooray, good for you." And so on. On the contrary, I got a splitting headache every time he
said, "Tribunal sentence you to death by hanging." Boom. It was like a hammer hitting me in the head. "The death
This tribunal sentence you to death by hanging." Next, death by hanging, death by hanging, death by hanging. I thought
my head was going to bust. Uh and in fact, we had planned, as was customary, when the trial came to an end, the chief
prosecutor had a party for his staff, and I had a planned a party for my staff. Uh
and I couldn't go to my own party. I called home. It was being my house. I said, "I'm going to bed."
And uh so it was not one of joy or victory. Uh it was a a very somber experience, what I would
say. After the trial, he and his wife Gertrude stayed in Germany. They had four children, all born in Nuremberg.
He worked on restitution and reparations efforts and helped return property to Holocaust survivors. If you do somebody
a harm, wrongful harm, you have an obligation to try to make good by either compensating him or trying to repair the
damage done. That was a guiding principle, a very simple principle of justice. And with that and with no experience
whatsoever in doing such a thing, which had never happened after a war that the victor
uh defeated has to pay off the victor. They had reparations which never worked, but individual compensation never had
been tried before and I said, "We'll do it now." Then after that, of course, is uh
after you stopped the war, punished the criminals, set up compensation for the victims, the
next step, the most important, prevent it from happening again. And that's what I've been doing ever since.
In 1956, he returned to the United States with his family to begin a career in private law practice.
And he started writing about international law and speaking about his experiences at Nuremberg.
His ideas were instrumental in the development of the International Criminal Court at The Hague.
He gave the closing statement in the court's first case against the Congolese warlord.
He's still working today at 99. I asked him about retirement and he said he has no desire to play golf.
And you care for your wife. Of course, that's primary obligation number one because we have the world
record, I am sure. My wife, I married an older woman, she's about 5 months older
than me. And uh we have been happily married since 1946. Uh how many years is that? That's I don't
know. Uh 72. It's 72 years, we never had a quarrel. Uh that's pretty damn good. How is that How is that possible? It's
very possible. Uh first of all, I'm not suggesting we didn't have differences of opinion, but
we never raised our voice, we never shouted, we never pounded the table because it's mutual respect and caring for each
other. They have a funny word for it that I don't like, love. Uh I don't like the word because you can
love piece of cheese, you can love the lovely day, you know, I can love to go home, I love to finish this interview.
And I say, "Hey, if you say caring for somebody, that's reflects better. And my wife now needs my care. It's It's uh
take home pay, you know? It's just payback time. [Music] In 2016, Benjamin Ferencz quietly donated a
million dollars to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. The footpath next to the Peace Palace at
The Hague was named after him. [Music] Criminal is produced by Lauren Spore, Nadia Wilson, and me.
Audio mix by Rob Byers. Mathilde Erflino is our intern. Special thanks to Michael
Wilkerson. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at
thisiscriminal.com. We're on Facebook and Twitter at criminalshow. Criminal is recorded in the studios of
North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collection of the best shows
around. Shows like Radio Diaries. Radio Diaries tells extraordinary stories of ordinary life.
This summer, they've a brand new series called Last Witness, audio portraits of the last surviving witnesses to major
historical events, including the story of 103-year-old Olivia Hooker, the last survivor of the Tulsa race riot of 1921.
I guess the most shocking thing was seeing people to whom you had never done anything to irritate
who just took it upon themselves to destroy your property because they didn't want you to have
those things and they were teaching you a lesson. [Music] Those were all new ideas to me.
But uh I guess that's part of the growing up process. [Music] Go listen. Special thanks to AdZerk for providing
their ad serving platform to Radiotopia. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. [Music]
Radiotopia from PRX.

When Benjamin Ferencz was 27 years old, he prosecuted his very first trial. There were 22 defendants, each of them high-ranking members of Nazi Germany’s death squad. The entire world was watching.

Today, we take a look at the Nuremberg trials and their role in defining international law after World War II.

Music in the episode “Topslides” by Blue Dot Sessions “Tolls Folly” by Blue Dot Sessions “Plate Grayscale” by Blue Dot Sessions “Denzel Sprak” by Blue Dot Sessions “Refraction” by Podington Bear “Drone Pine” by Blue Dot Sessions “Vik Fence Drona” by Blue Dot Sessions

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 97 originally published 8/17/2018 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-97-palace-of-justice

Brief Summary

Benjamin Ferencz discusses his life, WWII experiences, and role in prosecuting Nazi war criminals.

Key points

Benjamin Ferencz's Morning Routine. At 99, Ferencz shares his surprising and vigorous morning routine.
The Largest Murder Trial in History. Ferencz becomes chief prosecutor for the Einsatzgruppen case, the biggest murder trial ever.
A Somber Verdict. The defendants are found guilty, but Ferencz feels no joy in the outcome.
Legacy of Justice. Ferencz continues to work for justice and prevention of future atrocities at 99.
Last Witness Series. A new series featuring the last surviving witnesses to major historical events.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I can't stop and think and think.

Benjamin Ferencz reflecting on his emotional state during the war crimes investigations.

9:08WatchJan 15, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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