How These Four Families Fought for Justice for Their Loved Ones | Forensic Files

Hi, crime junkies. With the Fourth of July weekend almost here, we wanted to revisit a few stories that remind us why
the fight for justice never stops. One thing all of these cases have in common is that the people at the heart of them
refuse to accept that's just the way it is. Whether they're demanding answers, exposing failures in an investigation,
pushing for new laws, or making sure a victim's name is never forgotten, these families and advocates remind us that
real change often starts with someone refusing to give up. And every time someone speaks up, every time a
community keeps asking questions, every time a broken system is challenged, there's hope. hope for better
investigations, better technology, better laws, and more justice for victims and their families. So, today
we're revisiting a few Crime Junkie episodes that remind us that progress doesn't happen on its own. It happens
because people keep asking questions, demanding answers, and refusing to give up. Let's dive in.
Hope you like it, Big Papa. You going to get what's coming to you, you son of a >> You're not above the wall.
>> If you've never heard of Amber Sprdlin's case, well then you're probably not from
Eastern Kentucky because in Floyd County, this case is all people are talking about. For over a year, this
could have been considered a who done it. Six people went into a house, one ends up dead, one is covered in blood
and failed a polygraph. The one with scratches left the house right around when the murder is thought to have
happened. Two others don't seem to be talking to police at all. And at least one is talking, but says that when she
went to bed that night, everyone was fine. And a camera that was pointed right at where the crime took place and
should have made this an openand-shut case is missing. But some people in town never considered this a who done it.
They believe that the person police arrested, the one that's about to go to trial here any day, did the crime he's
charged with, a brutal murder of a young woman who had already been dealt one of
the toughest hands in life. But there are still so many questions. Mainly, why? 38-year-old Amber Sprdlin hardly
knew these people. Why would someone slit her throat, stab her in the face, and leave her dead, covered in blood on
the couch till morning? And why would a police chief unconnected to the investigation allegedly tell Amber's
family that she wasn't murdered at all and just died by aspiration? Something in Floyd County stinks. And based on
what we found, this might just be scratching the surface of what's been happening there. So, with the trial
right around the corner, we're trying to make sense of what happened to Amber Bradlin that night in June of 2023.
Amber Sprdlin had a tough childhood. Her mom and sister died when she was young,
and she was barely into her 20s when she lost her dad. And as you can imagine, all of that trauma left her with pretty
severe and sometimes debilitating anxiety and depression. But the family that she did have left, her
grandparents, her aunt Missy, her cousin Debbie, they had all really taken Amber
under their wings. And actually, up until recently, Amber lived with her grandparents. But when they two passed
away, Amber felt like it was time for her to step out from under her family's wings and finally spread her own. By
2023, at the age of 38, Amber had finally gotten her own place and found a part-time job as a hostess at a popular
restaurant in Prestonburg, Kentucky, where she lived. Now, I mean, this was a bit 0 to 60. So, Aunt Missy decides that
it would be best to keep a close eye on Amber just to make sure she was safe. So, she had security cameras installed
at Amber's new house to do just that. And Amber was great about communication, too. I mean, she is nothing if not
predictable. and keeping a strict routine is super important to her. So, she made a call every morning to her
aunt at 9:00 a.m. and they would exchange even more calls throughout the day. So, when Amber doesn't call Missy
on Sunday, June 18th, this bad feeling washes over her right away. Missy checks the footage from Amber's place and she
can see her leaving for work Saturday evening. But as she scrolls through later that night, when she knew Amber
should be home from work, then beyond all the way till she sees daylight, Amber never shows back up on screen. And
right away, Missy calls Debbie to tell her what's going on. And Debbie has that same immediate sinking feeling.
Something is wrong, and they just know it. Now, Debbie isn't in town. She's on this little getaway 90 minutes away with
her fianceé, Brandon. But that doesn't stop her from jumping right into action. Brandon's brother is with the Kentucky
State Police. So Brandon actually calls him to tell him Amber's missing. And about 10 minutes later, he gets a call
back and what comes out of his brother's mouth leaves everyone stunned. Amber isn't missing. She's been murdered. Now,
he can't give them much more. I mean, the only reason he knows anything about Amber's death is because his agency is
handling the investigation. So Debbie and Brandon immediately hop in their car and fly back to Prestonburg. And by the
time they get there, basically everyone in the family has come together. But no one knows anything more. I mean, the
wild part is that they're not even supposed to know what little they do, >> right? That's like just through like
back channels because they know a person, >> right? No one in any official capacity
on the case has notified them, anyone in their family, about what's going on. But
thank God for Brandon's brother. So he comes over to give them like the few tidbits of information that he does here
and he tells them that apparently Amber went out the night before and she was murdered by one of the men she was with.
So desperate for any help they can get, they reach out to a family friend that's
retired from the state police and he goes on to like make some calls to see if he can find out more information. And
what he ends up telling them is even more confusing. Debbie says that this guy called the Prestonburg police chief,
this guy named Randy Woods, and Randy told him that Amber wasn't murdered. He's like, "She is dead, but she died
because she aspirated, which is basically like if food or something like enters your airway and you stop
breathing, like that sort of thing." So, Chief Woods is saying that this was an accident. And according to Debbie, he
told this friend to tell the family that they should all just settle down. >> I'm sorry.
settle down. Like they were told that she's murdered and now but she died by accident. Like this family has every
right to not be settled >> and they and is getting no information. >> Well, and also I thought this was a
state police investigation. Why is the chief of the Prestonburg Police Department, different agency, telling
them to settle down? He's like not even involved, right? >> Well, so this is a very small town and
there's a lot of overlap between agencies. like they often do help each other out. They respond based on just
who's available, it seems like. >> And Kentucky State Police handles a lot of the suspicious death investigations
in smaller towns like Prestonburg and Martin, which is where the house ends up being that she's at. But
>> it's a little messy because like just a quick side story. So the 911 service in
Floyd County, it was in flux at the time. So the Kentucky State Police had handled the 911 services for the county
for a long time. But for just the year before, county officials had decided to switch its emergency call center to
Prestonburg because it would be less expensive. So like this process is just a little bit
>> there's like a lot of like moving parts that like haven't been moving for that
long, >> right? Like this guy still isn't in charge and the family doesn't know what
to believe. Like they want to hear something straight from KSP. No back channeling, which by the way, they've
been trying to make contact with someone all day. It's their inability to actually get someone official to talk to
them that was like necessitating all this back channeling. But finally, not long before midnight, Missy reaches
someone at the state police post and gives them an earful, explaining that they have been hearing rumors all day.
They just need to know what's going on. No one has been in contact with them. And whoever she talks to like must not
be able to give her the answers then or doesn't want to because they have to call her back. And that happens a few
hours later. That's when a detective finally gets in touch and says that Amber has been murdered.
>> I'm sorry. This is going back and forth. Like, what is happening? >> They're still not being told anything
yet, but she obviously didn't aspirate. And her body is being sent to the state medical examiner. So, they do say that
they'll know more soon and the case is under investigation by the Kentucky State Police. Period.
>> And then >> and nothing. The family is left super in the dark. They just know that Amber left
her place for work Saturday night and by Sunday morning, she's been murdered. Where did it happen? What happened? Did
the police have suspects? They were left to guess all of that while they waited for updates. Little did they know,
though, right from the jump, state police actually had all of that and some, because they had been working the
case since just after 10:30 a.m. that Sunday morning. And it all started with a 911 call from the home that Amber
would be found in. That home is in the town of Martin, Kentucky, and it belonged to then 55-year-old Dr. Michael
McKenna II. The doctor is the one who placed the call. And I'm going to read the transcript of it. That was included
in a court filing. Now, the public hasn't heard this call yet. I haven't heard this call yet. So, I'm just going
to read it pretty flat because I don't know what the tone was. But, I'm going to have you read for the 911 dispatcher
and I'll read for Michael. >> 911. Where is your emergency? >> Yes. So, my name is Michael McKini. I'm
at Arkansas Road. >> Yes. I had some people come back to my house last night and there's a girl on
my couch that's dead. >> Arkansas Creek. >> Yes. So, I need some assistance. >> All right, I'll get everybody out there.
>> That's my cell. Yes. >> Do you know who the female is? >> Roy, what's her name? What's her name? I
know it's Amber, but what's And then uh Roy jumps in here. Amber Sprdlin. Amber Sprdlin.
Is it obvious or was it you think it's drugs or? >> Dude, it looks like somebody's come into
the house and murdered her. Her throat slit. There's blood everywhere. >> Okay. About how old is she?
>> How old is she? 32? 33? >> All right, I'll get everybody out there. >> Thank you.
>> You're welcome. >> Thoughts? >> Well, I mean, it sounds like he doesn't even know her. Like, he can't give her
last name. Doesn't really know how old she is. Also, the phrase, "There's a dead girl on my couch." Like, what a
cold way to refer to anyone, but to refer to this person in your own home. Yeah. And listen, theoretically, he
should know her because the restaurant that Amber was a hostess at is it's called Brick House, and Dr. Michael
McKenna owns it. >> Oh. Now, it's probably not weird that he didn't know her last name and age. Like,
he didn't even work at the restaurant full-time. He's a dentist. The restaurant is just one of his business
ventures that helped make the McKinis a like wealthy and prominent family in the
area. And by the way, Eastern Kentucky has one of the highest poverty rates in the country. So if you have money,
people know you. So first responders may have known what house they were pulling
up to when they arrived after that 10:30 call was made. Now Amber is found on the
couch sitting upright. Her head is slumped forward and her clothes are covered in blood. And once they get a
better look at her, like first responders, they could tell that this was not a natural or accidental death. I
mean, she had been stabbed and her throat had been cut. And investigators now had four people standing in front of
them, and one of them was covered in blood. The man covered in blood is a 51-year-old local guy named Roy Kidd.
And after getting a lawyer, here's what he tells state police investigators. He'd met Amber years earlier at the
medical office in the area where Debbie works as a doctor. Amber volunteered there and Roy was a radiology
technician. Now, he told investigators that he wasn't really close with Amber or anything and Debbie backed that up.
She told us that Roy was nice to Amber, just kind of like joked around with her,
paid attention to her, but as far as she knew, like they didn't even hang out. Now, Roy said he occasionally ran into
Amber at the Brick House where she worked, and another bar called Seasons in and Restaurant, which was owned by a
McKini family member who he's related to by marriage. >> Okay. >> But they didn't spend much time together
outside of that except for this particular Saturday. He hadn't really planned on doing anything that night,
but Amber had messaged him on Facebook and convinced him to come out. He wouldn't have known this, but this was
maybe her trying to branch out, be more independent. So, after she got off work,
Amber picked him up at his house, and then they headed to Season's in. When Amber and Roy arrived, they don't
necessarily spend every minute together. Michael McKini was there, and Roy says that he spent most of the night with
Michael and Michael's brother, Chris, and Chris is the one who owns seasons. and they're just chatting. And Roy says
that Amber was talking to people she knew, hanging out with her friends. Of course, they like co-mingled at points.
Michael even bought Amber and Roy a few drinks. And then Chris gave them a few rounds on the house. Now, the bar closes
at 2:00 a.m., but when you know the owner, no, it doesn't. And he said that this big crowd stayed there drinking
after hours. That was the norm for seasons. But sometime around 4 in the morning, Michael invited Amber and Roy
to come back to his place to keep partying. This isn't a big group that's going back. Honestly, it was really just
the people who lived at the house. So, Michael, then his 23-year-old son, Michael McKini III, or MK as everyone
calls him, a guy named Josh Mullins, who had a room in the basement in the house,
and Josh's girlfriend, Lauren. So, Roy says, you know, they just accept the invitation. But Amber's cousin Debbie
told us that Amber was probably so excited to get that invite. I mean, this may have been a big deal for her. She
probably felt so lucky. And so, she and these other five people all piled into Michael's Bronco to head to the Mckin
house. Now, Roy says when they got to the house on Arkansas Creek Road, the party kept going in the basement where
Michael had after parties like often. I mean, he kept making everyone drinks. Everyone was having a good time. But at
some point, Roy had reached his limit, and he knew that he had to go to bed. He'd been there before, so he knew right
where to go, upstairs to MK's room, where he could collapse on a bunk bed. And he said that when he walked up the
basement stairs, everyone was still down there. Everyone seemed fine. The next thing he knew, Roy was waking up to
daylight. Now, it's between 7 to 9, maybe 9, 10, 11. like he's real fuzzy on the details, but he was also in real
rough shape. Like he was like covered in his own urine and feces. Obviously felt
really sick. >> The dude was like drunk drunk and I think he had some medical issues. But he
says that he just wanted to go home. So he makes his way out of the bedroom to go look for his phone so he can call
someone to pick him up. And in his search he stumbles down the hall to the other end of the house like it's by like
the kitchen. And from there, he could see the back of Amber's head, and it looked like she was sitting on the couch
in the living room. And so, he said he called her name as he was like going around to the front of the couch. And as
soon as he saw her from the front, he knew why she hadn't been responding because she was covered in blood. And he
says he rushes over to her, like shakes her. He's like screaming her name twice,
but she didn't respond at all. And in a panic, he rushes to Michael's bedroom on
the same floor, starts like banging on the door for him to wake up. And he says, "Michael opens it right away, and
Roy just said like, "Call 911 because something's happened to Amber." And he thought she'd had a stroke or something.
And so, according to Roy, Michael maybe stepped out from his room a bit, like looked Amber's way, and then he steps
back in and starts making calls. And Roy can't hear much. He's just like sitting
at the dining room table in shock. But at some point he asked where MK was because he didn't want him seeing what
was like in the living room. And Michael told him that MK left sometime during the night. So like no concern there. But
Lauren and Josh weren't so lucky. At some point they come upstairs where they all wait for police. So they just sat
there. Did no one check her pulse or try CPR? Like I know he's a dentist, but like dentists are still doctors. Police
literally asked Roy the same question. And Roy explained that he I mean he works in the medical field, right? He
thought Amber had some kind of hemorrhage or aneurysm because he didn't notice any wounds. He says all he saw
was the blood which had dried already and he figured that that she was gone just from her face and her eyes. I I
have so many questions. How did he mistake a slit throat for an aneurysm? Like that is not the same at all.
Actually, the way that she was slumped over, it like hid her neck and you actually couldn't tell. Even first
responders say that you could not see her throat was slit. So, that wasn't super weird to them. Okay, fine. But if
he's claiming the blood was dry and that he didn't really touch her behind like what, shaking her that one time? Like,
how does that explain him being covered in blood? >> Because he says it isn't her blood. He
said that he'd fallen quite a few times the night before. He had something like 10 to 14 drinks that night and said he
was like a nine out of 10 on the drunk scale. I don't know what a 10 out of 10 is for Roy, but he was sloppy. So, he
said he wiped out once while getting out of the Bronco when they first got there.
And then later at the house, he fell again in the bathroom and split open his chin. And the story probably seems a
little wild and far-fetched. >> Yeah. Especially because according to court records, one of the detectives
tells Roy that they can't find any blood in the bathroom where he says he busted
his chin. And Royy's surprised by this cuz he's like, you know, I didn't clean up after myself, so I don't know what to
make of this. But he insists that's what happened. He insists that everyone was fine when he staggered off to bed at
6:30. And Lauren, the only other person willing to talk to police that we know of, backs this up. She says that Amber
was still alive in the living room when Josh and her went back down to the basement where Josh's room was to go to
bed. And she says that was around 7:00 a.m. Okay. What about the blood? Does she back up his story about why it was
on him? Say anything about someone cleaning it up in the bathroom? >> I don't know. So, there haven't been a
ton of details released about what exactly she told police, but there is something else that backs up Royy's
story. Something way better than a drunk person's memory. Investigators realized
pretty early on that there was another call made to 911 from Michael's house that morning. Like 4 and a half hours
before the one about Amber, MK called. According to court filings, MK asked dispatchers to send someone to take a
family friend to the drunk tank. The family friend that he's talking about is presumably Roy. And the dispatcher asked
if Roy was like fighting or otherwise like committing an arrestable offense. And MK didn't answer directly, but he
added, quote, "I'm not saying arrest him." Now, I have not heard this call, but Debbie got to listen to the call,
and she said that MK describes Roy as quote really effed up and said that he was bleeding profusely.
But then Michael gets on the line and says that like, "I've got this under control. No response is needed, so no
one is dispatched. >> I'm sorry. I I guess I just I >> don't know what to think.
>> Yeah, cuz are we thinking something really happened at 6? >> Not if you believe Roy and Lauren. Cuz
Roy goes to bed after this. Everything's fine. Lauren goes to bed an hour after this call, everything's still fine. But
did either of them mention the first 911 call in their stories? >> I don't know about Lauren, but I know
that police asked Roy when they found out about it, like, you know, what's this 6 a.m. 911 call about? And it was
total news to him that MK called 911 on him. >> I mean, if he blacked out, I don't know
if we can trust anything he says, though. >> I don't I don't think he's saying he
doesn't know cuz he blacked out. Like, he just didn't know that MK did that. like and without hearing the call
myself, I don't know if MK's in another room. I don't know or or if things were just getting hazy for Roy or if he's
lying. Roy actually agreed to a polygraph test, but he fails it pretty royally. I mean, he fails on four
substantial questions. Did you see anyone stab or cut that woman? Did you stab or cut that woman? Did anyone tell
you that they stabbed or cut that woman? Did you help cover up that woman's death?
>> Oh, so like all the important questions. >> Yeah. And after he fails, detectives
want to bring him in for more questioning. But this is where Royy's attorney shuts it down. And as far as I
know, that was Royy's last interview with police. >> So, are Michael, MK, and Josh taking
polygraphs and giving like their version of events? Oh, your your face is telling
me a lot. >> It doesn't it doesn't seem like it. So, there's nothing in any of the court
records coming from them, but of course, a lot of evidence won't come out until the trial. It actually even takes
investigators a minute to find MK. I do know that because he wasn't at his mom's
house either. Like, he's not there when they show up. Not at his mom's house. And it turns out that he had gone back
to the city of Morehead, which is like 70 mi away where he went to college. But luckily for state police, the evidence
that they have been collecting from the scene and Amber's autopsy, that all tells a story of its own. It's just not
what anyone expected. Amber's autopsy reveals that her attack was brutal. At less than five feet tall,
she clearly tried to fight off her killer because she had defensive wounds and they were able to collect biological
material from under her fingernails that didn't belong to her. But any one of the
men in the house that night could have overpowered her. They were all taller, stronger, and of course, whoever
murdered her had a weapon. Now, we don't have the official autopsy, but what we do know from court records is that she
was stabbed a total of 12 times in the face, neck, head, torso, and throat. And the killer used so much force that the
blade of the knife broke off in her neck and was still there for the me to find.
>> Oh my god. And that was probably a huge shock to anyone in the room when it was
found because they had collected a knife from the scene. >> What? a whole intact knife that had been
like shoved into the couch Amber was sitting on. And now they have this blade, but the missing handle that
should have been attached to said blade in her neck was nowhere to be found. Never recovered.
>> Wait, so were two weapons used? >> It doesn't seem like it. Again, there's still very limited information about the
knife recovered from the couch and what testing might have been done on it and what that might have shown. But the way
the indictments read, it looks like they think that knife was planted, >> but why? Like that that doesn't make any
sense. >> I know. And I keep going over it in my head. And I don't know if it only
doesn't make sense because we're sober right now. Like trying to like piece this together,
>> right? >> Anyway, put the planted knife aside. The handle to the knife that we care about
is missing. And you know what else is missing? The McKinis had surveillance cameras around their house. And one of
those cameras was pointed directly at the couch where Amber was found. According to Lauren, it was there. There
was also one in the basement by the bar area. So, this case should be over right
there. >> Yeah. >> It should show exactly what happened and when and who was involved. Mhm.
>> But those cameras and the footage were gone by the time police arrived at the
house after Michael's 911 call. And so was the digital video recorder and the hard drive that stored the footage from
the surveillance cameras, too. >> Whatever was on those tapes is long gone now. According to court records,
surveillance footage from the area, though they collect that and it shows MK's blue truck leaving the area at
around 8:30 in the morning. And that is very different from what Roy said that Michael told him, which was that MK left
the night before. I mean, we knew that was a lie as soon as we found out about the 6 a.m. call from MK to 911,
>> right? And if everyone's stories are to be believed, big if there, >> the time that he's there at the house
and then leaves is in this very critical window. So MK makes that 911 call a little before 6:00 a.m. Roy goes to bed
presumably after that. Then Lauren and Josh go to bed at 7 a.m. >> and Lauren says Amber is still alive and
well, and it's just Michael and MK who are now unaccounted for. Then just before 8:30, MK's truck is driving away.
And by 10:37, Amber is for sure dead. Blood on her has already had time to dry. Yeah, I am so suspicious of
everyone right now. >> I know. Which I think is going to be a problem when this case goes to trial.
What they need is physical evidence tying someone to Amber's murder. It seems like the best piece of evidence
they have to work with is that material found under her fingernails. I mean, she
clearly tried to defend herself. So, if it was from one of the five other people
in the house that night, maybe their DNA is going to show up there. Now, they are
able to create a profile from what they got. It's not great, but it is enough to
tell that it's male, and they can do direct comparisons with it. So, they get the DNA of every man that was in the
house that night. I'm assuming through a warrant, but that's not specified in the
court docs. So, Roy, Michael, Josh, and MK. And something interesting happens when MK goes to the KSP post to give his
sample. This is just 3 days after Amber's death. And I don't know if this is the first time they're actually
laying eyes on him or what, but authorities notice that he has a bunch of scratches on both of his arms. And it
looks like the scratches kind of like start at the inside of the elbow and like move down in the direction of his
hand. And listen, I'm no expert, but like it kind of looks like claw marks. What does MK say the scratches are from?
>> I don't know if he gives an explanation. Like if he does, that's not in the court
records. My guess is that he's keeping his mouth shut based on advice from his attorney.
>> But DNA is going to do the talking for him if it's his. They just have to send
it off and then wait. Now, mind you, while all of this is unfolding, in the first couple of days, Amber's family is
still mostly in the dark. >> No one from law enforcement ever came to their house for an official notification
of Amber's death. And no one came to them right away to get any statements or anything. But they weren't just waiting
around. I mean, they start hearing rumors about what happened. They find out who Amber was with the night before
and where she was. They feel like the McKinis might have something to do with whatever happened to her,
>> which I think is a fair assumption, >> right? And their biggest fear, though,
is that I mean, because the McKinis are kind of what they consider powerful in the community, they're afraid that
Amber's death might just get swept under the rug. Debbie told us that people feel
that there are two kinds of justice in Floyd County. one for the halves and one for the have nots. I mean, we end up
finding out that Michael is actually friends with at least one officer in the Prestonburg Police Department. So, even
though the case is being handled by a different agency, their faith in a proper investigation is shaky at best.
So, by day two, her loved ones and people from the community were protesting outside of Michael McKenny's
restaurant where Amber worked. Debbie created a Facebook page called Justice for Amber and people were joining in
droves. They went on to hold a candlelight vigil at the alternative school that Amber attended. And her
family talks to every reporter who calls. They want answers and they think the best way to get them is through
attention. So tension is building in the community. And keep in mind when I say community, Prestonburg is literally a
few streets tucked into a valley. a few stores on the highway, a few side streets, mostly these little houses. I
mean, the whole population is around 3,500 people. So, it does not take long for rumors to start spreading. And the
rumor that's spreading isn't just that someone in that house was involved in her murder. People in town believe that
police tried to cover it up. The Kentucky State Police? No. though. I mean, the family still does not love how
they found out Amber was murdered secondhand, >> right? >> But there was something about the call
that they got from Debbie's friend, that retired KSP officer that just like never
quite sat right with them. >> And that's the one where the chief of police in Prestonburg told them to
settle down >> and that Amber wasn't murdered, just she aspirated cuz like >> that's specific. And how would he know?
>> It's specifically so different from the truth of what happened, >> right? So if he was in the know, like
that shouldn't have been his answer, >> right? >> If he didn't know anything, >> why is he saying that?
>> Yeah. Why is he literally making stuff up to tell a grieving family on a case
that he's not working? Like >> it's not adding up. But you know, there's something else that's not adding
up when it comes to who knew what and when. So, remember Michael's 911 call when he said, "Dude, it looks like
somebody's come into the house and murdered her. Her throat slit. There's blood everywhere." How would he have
known that? Roy didn't know that her throat was slit. He told Michael that she had an aneurysm or something. And
remember, even first responders said that it wasn't clear that her throat was slit because of how she was like slumped
over, right? But Michael wasn't even close up. Roy said at most Michael just stepped out of his room and looked over
toward the couch before going back into his room and making calls. And Roy told police that he never saw Michael check
on Amber. >> I mean, he seems pretty sure about what happened on the call, though.
>> Yes, he does seem pretty sure of it when he calls 911. But you might have caught
me saying that he made calls that morning, plural, >> not just a call to 911. And the first
one that morning wasn't to 911. You're not going to believe who it was to when I show you the court docs.
Police found out that before calling 911, Michael McKini made a nearly 8minute call to Randy Woods, the
Prestonburg Chief of Police, >> which like for what possible reason? So, Michael doesn't give one to
investigators that we know of, but Chief Woods does. Chief Woods tells state investigators that when Michael called,
he just instructed him to call 911. >> Call 911. Did that take 8 minutes? >> Right. They have an 8minute call.
>> Yeah. >> Now, maybe Mike was in shock. I mean, no one ever expects to be in a situation
like this. Maybe he panicked. He called law enforcement by dialing his friend's number who's in law enforcement instead
of 911. Like in his mind, it could have been the same thing. And maybe for 8 minutes, Chief Woods was calming him
down. We don't know, but it would sure be weird if he spent that long calming his friend down, but then basically told
the family to like cool it because she aspirated. Well, then Michael goes on to tell 911 that her throat was slit.
>> And Roy didn't overhear anything. >> He says no. He says that he knew he was making more than one call, but he
suspected that Michael was calling his ex-wife first. I don't know why, but he says he didn't know it was the chief and
like he couldn't hear much from the call. >> Could Chief Woods have been instructing
Michael about what to do? >> Only two people know what was said in those 8 minutes. We reached out to Chief
Woods, but we have not heard back yet. What I will say is I think there's something interesting to remember.
Floyd County had just changed its 911 call system. Remember, a few months before Amber's murder. It is possible
that when Michael called 911, he expected Preston'sburg dispatch to send Prestonburg officers.
>> Would it have made a difference? >> I don't know. One of the things I think about, and I
might have mentioned this before, but like I recently went to a coroner's conference this year, and the educator
there was warning against something that he sees a lot where responding officers
or like a coroner with no death investigation training because like by the way, in some places, like to this
day, you don't need any training to be a coroner. Just like got to be a high school graduate with a pulse. I'm not
saying that's like the case here, but like anyways, someone with no investigative training can show up in
some places to a scene and if that person says it's not suspicious, that's the end of the line. No criminal
investigators come out, it is just over and done with. >> But Michael said on the call with 911
that her throat was slit. >> I know that doesn't make sense to say if something sketchy was going on. So, I'm
I'm not saying that in this case. I would pay good money to see first responders reports, who was dispatched,
who showed up, when, why, but none of that has been released yet by the state police because Amber's family has some
suspicions about the way that they think things went down and what was supposed to happen, but without documentation, I
can't report on it. Not yet, at least. I can tell you that if someone was trying
to cover this up, Debbie's family believes it wouldn't be the first cover up to happen in Floyd County, not even
the first for their family. Remember how I told you that Amber grew up with her grandparents because both of her parents
died? >> Yeah. >> Well, her mother Sharon died in 1988 after she got locked in a Prestonburg
bar called the Wildcat Lounge and climbed up on a chair to break out a window. The story is that the chair
collapsed and it left her stuck hanging from the window with her feet a few inches off the floor. So, she suffocated
and it was just considered an accident. The family feels that there wasn't much of an investigation at all. But Debbie
says the family never bought that explanation. I mean, the bar owners swore that they had checked the place
before closing that night and nobody was inside. And there's other cases that Debbie mentioned like Kristen Smith who
was 33. She was found dead in her home by her boyfriend on June 2nd, 2021 in Martin, the same tiny city of around 500
where the McKinis live. And not just any boyfriend. A friend we spoke to who did
not want to be named says that she was dating a local official. She was a mom of two kids and about to graduate from
college. She'd worked really hard to complete a diploma that would mean that she could give her kids the kind of life
that she wanted them to have without having to rely on anyone else. The same friend told us that after numerous
instances of domestic violence, Kristen was leaving. And the next morning, she was found dead under what her family
thinks are suspicious circumstances. According to WSAZ, her death was ruled a suicide. Her friend also told us that
people in Floyd County just see this as kind of the way things happen in those parts. The same day Kristen was last
seen alive, a woman named Candy Green Gonzalez, who was 36, was reported missing from Prestonburg.
Her family had last seen her the day before. Rumors online that we can't confirm say that Candi was dating the
son of a local law enforcement officer. Now, one of Cand's relatives did tell us
it's disturbing how much happens in Floyd County that just seems to get swept under the rug and is never talked
about again. Women missing, women suspiciously dying, and no one convicted, especially if they have pull
at the courthouse. People close to both women say that their cases weren't really investigated and they believe
that the politicians and law enforcement in the county closed ranks to protect their own and there was almost no media
coverage on these cases to expose any issues and that is what makes Amber's case different.
>> And her case is so clearly homicide like there's no way to even try to call it
something else. >> You mean like aspiration, >> right? >> Yeah. But still, even with everything
they have at that time, months go by while KSP waits for the forensic testing they did to come back because the lab is
backlogged. And in that time, no one is arrested, which like how but who? Like you have six people in the house that
night. I mean, one's dead, one is covered in blood and failed a polygraph. The one with scratches on his arm left
the house during like a very critical window of time when the murder is thought to have happened. One talked to
police but said that she was asleep and everything was fine. And two others don't seem to be talking to police at
all unless you count an off the books call to the chief of police before 911 was called. So who do you arrest? Like
it can't be all of them. Not without proof. The community is outraged by this though, understandably. And at some
point, members even rented a billboard that says justice for Amber. And they paid $3,000 every three months to keep
it up. But finally, according to Debbie, 8 months later, >> 8 months >> 8 months later, the results finally
start coming in. The blood on Royy's shirt >> is Royy's blood. No trace of Ambers. And that DNA under
her nails, not Royy's and not Josh's. >> Okay. >> Now, the type of testing they have, they
were working with YSTR testing, which looks at genetic markers on the Y chromosome.
>> Mhm. >> And those get passed down from father to son. So all males along a direct
paternal line have the same marker. >> So good news in this case, they have a match. It's McKini DNA.
Bad news. Investigators can't say which one. It could be Michael or it could be MK or it could be any other male in that
familial line for that matter. >> Yeah, but there wasn't any other family in the house that night.
>> Very true. So, with investigators knowing that they were the only two men from that family in the house,
>> and knowing that MK is the one who wasn't there when police showed up, and that he's the one who had scratches on
his arms when they met with him 3 days after the murder, MK is the one who is finally charged with Amber's murder.
>> The one So, just him. >> Yeah. They charge MK with murder and what will eventually be eight counts of
evidence tampering, but Michael and Josh get hit with evidence tampering charges,
too. And they all plead not guilty. >> And Roy and Lauren, >> nada, which like was a little surprising
to me. Not necessarily the Roy part based on just like how he cooperated and what we know from all like the pieces. I
mean, I he said 9 out of 10 drunk. I think he was like a full 10 out of 10 drunk and asleep when whatever happened
happened. >> But I am having a hard time figuring out like where Lauren is for all of this or
why she's not a part of it. But Josh is if they both went to bed together like she said.
>> Yeah. But the idea put forward in the indictment is that MK killed Amber and then with Michael and Josh quote
removed, concealed or destroyed end quote. The handle on the knife used in the attack, MK's clothing, and the
camera and digital recorder containing surveillance footage, the hard drive that would have contained footage of the
murder. All of that. The indictment also alleges that Amber's blood was cleaned up from the kitchen and the laundry room
sinks. And this is all before Michael ever makes any calls, like while Roy is still sleeping,
>> presumably. Now, one thing I know I mentioned is that Roy said that Michael opened his bedroom door like right away
when he starts pounding on it. It seems to me like Michael was already up or like maybe had never gone to bed.
>> So, did Roy interrupt a plan or was Michael waiting for someone else to find Amber? Like, I have no clue. Like I
don't even think we can say for certain that Michael wasn't sleeping. >> But I think if evidence was destroyed
like the prosecution is alleging, it probably happened before Roy woke up. And listen, there is still a lot we
don't know. I mean, I get the feeling what has been released is only scratching the surface of what police
have. I mean, yeah, like motive. How did this night spiral so like badly and quickly and all of it? That is
the thing with this case. This is the big question still. But I'm not sure we're ever going to get
a satisfying answer. I mean, like so often when it comes to violence against women, you see a sexual motive, but
Amber was clothed from what we know, and there was no sign of sexual assault that
was in the records. And the prosecution hasn't suggested that that's their theory either. The only thing that has
been talked about is some worrisome behavior by MK that got uncovered in KSP's investigation. According to court
docs, MK allegedly has a history of violent outbursts and mental instability. Now, he doesn't have a criminal history,
but what investigators hear paints a really disturbing picture. According to court records, a guy named Timothy Lyens
told investigators that he had gone to the McKini house one night after drinking at Seasons, you know, the
usual. And he alleges MK pulled out a knife and said that he was going to kill everyone there. And like 20 people were
over. So everyone fled the basement according to Timothy. And then Michael wrestled the knife away from MK. And Roy
even told investigators that he was talking to MK the night of the murder. and MK was confiding in him that he was
experiencing suicidal thoughts and that he'd been hearing dark voices telling him to do bad things. Now, Roy says that
he was really concerned and he tried to comfort him, but like given how much he drank, Roy was in no shape to like help
anyone. >> But interestingly, MK's defense is not combating these charges with any kind of
insanity defense, >> which I mean, I feel like that would be a struggle to pull off given that 6 a.m.
call he made. like you're lucid enough to call 911 about Roy, like worried about his state,
>> right? So, if he wasn't experiencing an episode of psychosis and he did murder
Amber like police allege and the prosecution alleges, then what was that call? Was this premeditated? Was he trying to
frame Roy with that call? I mean, it might be totally unrelated, but pointing the finger at Roy does seem to be the
strategy for MK's defense. We actually got MK's defense attorney, Steven Roind, on the phone. It's one of the first
times he spoken publicly about the case. And one of the first things he pointed to for us was that first 911 call from
MK about Roy being drunk and belligerent. He also pointed to police testimony to the grand jury that
indicated Amber was upset at Roy for being so drunk and embarrassed by his behavior in front of her boss.
>> So what? He killed her. >> MK's lawyer didn't say that. He's just like pointing to things that he thinks
we should know and stuff I assume he's going to be sharing with a jury. >> Wait, what about MK's dad lying about
when MK left? Like he's the only one who left that morning. >> Well, we get that from Roy. I mean, Roy
is the one telling police that Michael said that. >> Mhm. >> And MK's lawyer says that anything that
comes out of Royy's mouth is worthless in his mind. He told us that Royy's cell phone was right beside Amber's body on
the couch. I mean, remember he'd gone looking for it that morning and that's when he found Amber.
>> And MK's attorney also points to the fact that Roy failed his polygraph test on remember those pretty substantial
questions. >> And I'd also like to point out that Roy is the only one who actually took a
polygraph >> that we know of. Correct. Crime junky life rule number four, never take a
polygraph. >> But of course, those results aren't going to be admissible in court,
>> right? MK's attorney says that investigators basically ruled Roy out because they thought that Roy was too
drunk to kill someone, which he disagrees with. Oh, and the missing surveillance and camera equipment.
>> Yes, >> we asked him about that and he says that he'll address that at trial, but he says
that it had been removed weeks earlier because it was going to get replaced. As for why MK didn't cooperate with
investigators, MK's lawyer says investigators implicated him immediately and so he wisely exercised his Fifth
Amendment rights. >> And what about the DNA? Like the DNA does not look good for his client.
>> He said it's the weakest DNA evidence he's ever seen in connection to a case and that it could have come from
anything like laying on a couch in someone's home. And listen, I don't have details about this DNA, but I do assume
there was very little if all they could do was YSTR, right? If there would have been more, they could have gotten a
sample to do a direct comparison with both of the McKinis, >> which I think would have helped their
case against MK, right? If it ended up being his. So, I think that's going to be a point that MK's lawyer may be able
to win with a jury. But guess who else we heard from right before we got ready to do this recording? Michael McKenna,
MK's dad, got back to us and he had some interesting things to say. He accused Amber's family and supporters of using a
quote paid social media campaign end quote to attack him and his family, which he said is an attempt for
conviction in the court of public opinion. And he also said that the campaign made it so that Roy wasn't
investigated, even though that Michael says the evidence against Roy is overwhelming.
and he points to some of the same factors as MK's lawyer did, like the failed polygraph, the fact that Roy
eventually did stop talking to investigators. Michael says the campaign against his
family is trying to quote contaminate the jury pool. And he also accused the prosecution of trying to delay the trial
so that there is more time to influence prospective jurors. Now, the trial was set for December, but on October 20th,
the prosecution did ask for more time. They wanted to continue to test more evidence.
>> What evidence is there left to be tested? >> Apparently, there are at least 33 more
items that need to be analyzed for DNA. Remember, the crime lab in Kentucky is seriously backed up. It took 8 months
for that first batch of results to come back. So, the lab just didn't get it done in time. Now, the judge granted
that request, cancelling the December 1st trial date, and basically they ordered everyone to come back in that
day for a pre-trial conference instead. And so, I assume that they'll have a new
trial date after that. And we're actually going to be live streaming the whole thing on the Crime Junkie Jury
YouTube channel. So, please show up for Amber and her family. Come drop a comment, let them know that you are
there, that you're supporting them. I know it would mean so much to them. And until then, like MK is in jail awaiting
trial. Josh and Michael are both out on bail and house arrest with conditions. Like they can kind of go about their
business. Like Michael was still allowed to train other dentists while awaiting trial to save his dental practice and
he's still allowed to go to his restaurant. And what about the Chief Woods of it all? Like if it were me, I
would want to dig deeper into figuring out whether there was any kind of attempted cover up here.
>> This is this is the other interesting part. So, Chief Woods ended up resigning
from the Preston Police Department 5 days after Amber's murder. Now, in a statement quoted in local media at the
time, he said that his resignation was because of the emotional toll of a June 2022 shooting in Floyd County that
killed three police officers. >> Ashley, >> the resignation was right before the
anniversary of the shooting. So, that is his official reason. Got it. Anyway, in June 2024, Amber's family
brought a civil suit against multiple public officials and private individuals, including Chief Randy
Woods, also the Prestonburg Police Department, the McKinis, Roy, and others, all alleging negligence,
obstruction of justice, civil conspiracy, and other wrongdoings. And this was before they ever knew if there
was going to be criminal charges. So, that case is still pending. A major part of the suit is what we mentioned about
the 911 system transfer in Floyd County from the KSP to the city. And the lawsuit claims that that switch left the
county without adequate emergency coverage. And they say that contributed to Amber's murder because if someone had
gone to the Mckin's house when MK first called 911 on Roy, she might still be alive. It has been beyond hard for
Amber's family to watch the men accused of being involved in her death go about their day-to-day lives over the last
couple of years. It's their hope that when they have their day in court that they're going to see justice for Amber
because at the end of the day, they want to ensure that Amber herself never gets
lost in this story. She endured so many tragedies and she was just finding her footing. And for things to end like this
for her, like just doesn't seem fair. And they don't want her death to be for nothing. So they're pushing for a bill
to be reintroduced in the Kentucky state legislature that would increase funding
for crime labs so that investigators and families don't have to go through long waits that they had to in Amber's case.
>> It would be called Amber's law. and they're getting a lot of support from the community where they live and across
the nation. Debbie tells us that she thinks it's because so many people in that area identify with Amber with her
struggles and her losses. And as information came out after she was murdered and people caught wind of an
alleged cover up, it really rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. So Debbie hopes
Amber's case brings attention to the other loved ones of other missing people or people who may have died suspiciously
in the county. and she actually took to the Facebook group that she created for Amber and she put this call out on it
asking other people if they knew of cases that needed attention because she wants Amber's story to give other people
some hope and some fight that you know if they can get out there and stand up and stick with it maybe there will be
some change or some justice for them too. And people have been commenting with names, like so many names. It is
totally overwhelming and we're having the team look into some of those cases now. So, we're going to keep you updated
as we dig into those. And Debbie wrote in that same Facebook post that she had been hoping and praying that Amber would
help bring attention and justice to others who needed it. You can find all the source material for
this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. And if you want to listen to more
episodes like this one and all of our episodes adfree, be sure to join our fan club. You'll also get early access to
episodes and tons of bonus episodes. And you can follow us on Instagram @ crimejunk podcast. We'll be back next
week with another episode. What I'm about to brief you on is something deeply troubling to me
as a human being and as a police chief. On February 4th, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found
deceased in her apartment in Kenton. What I am here to talk about today is her life
and how she was failed by, manipulated by, and used by people of authority that she
admired and trusted right up until her final days. Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person
who had one constant in her life since childhood. Her unwavering admiration of police officers,
of those serving the military, people in uniform, people with oaths and duties to protect
and serve. The admiration led her to form relationships with men who were willing to take
advantage of her. I stand before you today as a civil servant who is heartbroken and insensed
by what has transpired and who pledges to this that this chapter and the Stoen Police
Department and the town of Stoton is over. It must never repeat. The revolving door is closed.
>> There are so many stories we tell that involve corruption, cover-ups, or just
downright incompetence or negligence that it makes me lose complete faith in the system. A system that is put in
place to protect us. And doing this show for as long as I have, I've seen a lot more bad than good. The problems are
systemic and at times I've even caught myself thinking like what is the point? Like we might as well just give up
because the problems are so big and have been there for so long that maybe I'm the delusional one and this is just how
the world is evil and the evil is so like deeply rooted that we are never going to win or never going to make a
difference. But then when I need it the most, I get a glimpse of the good ones. The people who are fighting from the
inside to make things better and fair and just. People who believe in right and wrong and know that no one is above
the law. And those people give me hope all over again to keep fighting myself. And I felt all of those feelings when
covering today's story. despair that an entire agency could look the other way when so much evidence was at their
fingertips suggesting a boy in blue might have killed a young woman to protect his reputation. And then this
fire to kick ass and take names and get behind those people like Donna McNamera,
the chief of the Stoen PD who you just heard at the top. She didn't just sit back and let it be. She found her own
way to expose the truth and she lit a spark that other good people out there doing the right thing fanned into a
flame to get justice for Sandra Birmore. So, let me tell you how that happened. February 4th, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra
Burmore was found dead in her Canton, Massachusetts apartment. Police discovered her body while responding to
a welfare check requested by someone at the school where she worked because she hadn't shown up in days. Now, Sandra was
found in a seated position on the floor by her bedroom closet with this duffel bag strap wrapped tightly around her
neck and fixed to the handle of the closet door. The Massachusetts State Police didn't note any signs of forced
entry to her apartment. The door was actually locked and they had to get a key from the property manager just to
get in. And once they were inside, they didn't see any signs of a struggle at all in the bedroom or anywhere else in
the apartment. The walls didn't have any indentations or scuff marks. And there were no drag marks on the floor or
anything like that. Even though the apartment was cluttered with baby items still in boxes for the child that Sandra
was 8 to 10 weeks pregnant with, nothing seemed to be knocked over or moved. And
surveillance footage from her apartment complex's lobby shows Sandra coming and going alone on Monday, February 1st,
which is the last day she appears on camera and the day that officials believe she died. So, the suicide
determination came quickly, even before the medical examiner's official ruling. All the Canton PD reports discussed this
case as a suicide. And the Massachusetts State Police seemed to agree cuz I'm sure the more they learned about Sandra,
like it just began to confirm their theory because she grew up struggling. Dad wasn't in the picture. Mom had
chronic health challenges, oftentimes not being able to work, so they struggled to make ends meet. And from a
young age, Sandra sort of took on the role of caretaker. And then in 2016, when Sandra was just 19 years old, her
mom died of a stroke. And then just weeks later, her grandmother passed away, too. According to an unnamed
source in a Boston Globe article, after these back-toback tragedies, Sandra began expressing suicidal thoughts in
her journal entries. And she tried living with other family members after this, but she never really had that
stable home base. And there was an instance like eight or nine months before her death where Sandra got in a
fight with the family member that she was living with and stormed out. That person called 911 concerned that Sandra
might be at risk of hurting herself. Now, at the time of her death, she was about 2 and 1/2 months pregnant with
what investigators would quickly find out was a married man's baby. So, it must have all just been too much. How
sad. And when a pathologist from the office of the chief medical examiner agrees and rules this case a suicide,
that's that. And there is a world where it would have ended right there. But not
this one. Not this time. You see, even though Canton PD was the agency originally called and Massachusetts
State Police eventually took over, the Stoen Police Department opened an internal affairs investigation the day
after Sandra was found. >> And where in relation to all this is Stoen? >> It's just a town over from Canton.
>> Okay. But the reason they're in the mix is because of who Sandra's baby daddy
allegedly was. You see, Chief Donna McNamera heard from the Massachusetts State Police that one of her officers, a
man named Matthew Farwell, may have been having an affair with Sandra, and that would have violated department policies.
Because, I mean, put him married with kids aside, Matthew Farwell was an officer who worked with their police
explorers program. And Sandra in her youth was an explorer. And B, I know you know all about the program because it
came up in our live show, but for the newbies out there, do you want to give them the lowdown?
>> Yeah, this will be very surface level. But the explorers program is basically
like an extracurricular program run by local law enforcement agencies and it's open to anyone from the ages of like
what 6th grade to 20 years old. >> Um, who are interested in joining law enforcement one day. It's sort of like a
junior police academy. They wear little uniforms, learn about investigations, do
ride alongs, even apparently search for evidence sometimes. Usually the program is led by actual
officers from the local department. So the kids who sign up get really close to them, which can be a really great thing
in some cases, but potentially really dangerous in others. >> You are correct. Okay. So, I was about
to ask if the state police knew about this, but if they're the ones who told the chief in Stoton, then they had to
have. >> Yeah, they did. And they were looking into it, too. Despite many files that
refer to Sandra's death as a suicide, it does seem like they were still doing some leg work, like checking boxes,
making sure they didn't miss anything big like the affair with a married officer.
They even talked to him, collected his and Sandra's phone data. And in their interview with him, which takes place on
February 6th in a school parking lot for some reason, Matthew admits that he was
at Sandra's apartment that night. >> I'm sorry, what? >> Yeah. So, remember the surveillance
video that showed her apartment lobby, right? She's coming. >> She's coming going by herself.
>> Mhm. Well, it didn't just show her coming and going. And just a quick FYI, the footage was found to be 13 minutes
off. So the times I'm going to be telling you have been adjusted for accuracy. But basically, Sandra gets
home early from school because they had closed for a snow day on the 1st. A few hours later, after 5:00 p.m., she's
caught on camera again picking up a food delivery. And then at 5:31 p.m., she's seen one last time stepping outside
briefly to brush the snow off her car and then heading back upstairs. And that's it for Sandra. But they did look
at the rest of the footage to see if there was anyone else suspicious on it. And the maintenance supervisor at the
apartment building tells officers that he recognizes everybody who enters the lobby that night except for one person.
This tall, burly man wearing boots, jeans, a black jacket with a hood up, and what looks like a co mask, which
almost entirely covers his face. Now, he entered the building at 9:14 p.m. and then left at 9:43.
And the police report notes that the man wasn't wearing gloves and appeared to be
white. >> And that's Matthew. >> I mean, we know now that it was Matthew because he is admitting it to police on
the 6th, but at the time, it's a little hard to tell what they knew because this
part of the police report is pretty heavily redacted. All I know is that one of the building workers says that they
had seen this guy with Sandra before, but they didn't know who he was. And the leasing manager starts giving them at
that point some information about a police officer that Sandra had been in a relationship with and how there was
something that he was unhappy about that Sandra was nervous about. But honestly,
it truly is almost impossible to make sense of this person's account with all of the redactions to the file,
>> right? You're kind of just like barely able to kind of almost connect dots, >> right? So they were probably suspicious,
but now they like, "No, no, it was him, right?" And his story seemed to again confirm their original hypothesis
because he says that he met Sandra in the Explorer program. She was 13 when she joined. He was 24, but he says that
like nothing untoward happened. Matthew says that he knew Sandra had a troubled life and he felt bad for her, so he
would like keep tabs on her over the years. But according to him, the relationship didn't become sexual until
early 2020 when Sandra would have been 21. And that only happened because he says he got drunk one night and quote,
"ended up meeting up with her and having sex." And then he says that they had sex
two or three more times after that with the last time being in October of 2020. So does he say that they were like
dating? Like how did he classify the relationship? Were they together? Well, so like I said, so he's married with two
kids at that time. So at least on his end, this was very much not a public like relationship situation,
>> but he goes on to say that in December of 2020, Sandra told him that she was pregnant and that he was the father.
Now, in his interview, Matthew says that that wasn't possible and that the timeline didn't make any sense and just
basically adamantly denies that he was the father of Sander's unborn child. >> Okay, so then cut to the chase, Matthew.
Why are you at her apartment the day she died? >> Yeah. So, he says that that night he
asked Sandra if he could come over because he wanted to end things with her once and for all. He says that he hadn't
seen her in about a week because he'd been trying to distance himself. But that was before he learned that Sandra
was now telling people that he was the father of her child. So he went over that night and said that he told Sandra,
quote, "She was crazy and that there was no way he could be the father of her baby based on her timeline and that he
was just done with her." He said that the two of them kind of got into this pretty nasty argument, not anything like
yelling or physical, but just like really tense. And before he left, he told her it was really over and he was
blocking her on everything, which he did. And Matthew says Sandra was definitely upset, but that she didn't
say anything about wanting to hurt herself. and he told police that she was very much alive and standing in the
kitchen when he walked out. Now, they ask him to take a polygraph and submit to a DNA test presumably to verify his
claim about the baby not being his. >> But none of those things end up happening because Matthew gets an
attorney who steps in. And this attorney, Patrick Hanley, actually writes a letter to an MSP sergeant
saying that these requests don't make any sense for the investigation of a witness, which is what MSP had said
Matthew was. I actually have a quote from Patrick. It says, "I advised my client to decline these
requests and the request for further interview that accompanied them. I did so because they are far outside the norm
for mere witnesses in an investigation. I was a prosecutor for 14 years and participated in hundreds of interviews
with state police detectives like yourself. I cannot recall one seeking a polygraph interview and I can only
recall seeking DNA of persons that the investigators and I considered targets. Mr. Farwell has already provided highly
personal information. In my opinion, providing DNA is a step too far. End quote.
Byer also underscores that Matthew had nothing to do with Sandra's death, that he never encouraged her to harm herself
or believe that she might. And according to him, Sandra's death by suicide was a
complete shock to Matthew. The thing Matthew does comply with is turning over his phone, but he warns that he deleted
all the communications with Sandra. Okay, that's fishy, right? Like they see that that's at least sus, right? They
don't say. We just have a report that is very black and white. And I I even brought this one.
So it just says on February 9th, 2021, Matthew Farwell consented to a data extraction of his personal iPhone 11,
which was then extracted by trooper Nick Garino. On April 26th, 2021, I received
Matthew's work cell phone from Stoton Police Department. Through Matthew's attorney, consent was given for a data
extraction which was performed by trooper Nick Garino. I analyzed both of these phones and did not find any
communication with Sandra Burgemore. Matt had said in a previous interview that he had deleted all communications
with Sandra. So there's no like, oh, we think this was weird or not. >> Well, didn't see anything,
>> right? So, Trooper Nicarino went through this. We know this, but another state
police sergeant had started combing through Sandra's laptop that was collected from her apartment,
>> the other end of the communication, >> right? And so he finds in that thousands
of text messages between Sandra and Matthew in the 12 months or so before her death. Now the state police write
that the text messages make it clear that Matthew and Sandra were in a sexual relationship, but they concluded that
there was nothing threatening at all. So they must just be assuming that he deleted the messages to hide the affair.
Nothing murdery here. So case closed, right? >> Wrong. because Stoton PD was running
their internal affairs investigation alongside this one. And in reviewing over 32,000 messages between Sandra and
Matthew in the 14 months leading up to her death, they see a far more disturbing picture of Sandra's case.
Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The
Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark
new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these
victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now wherever you get your podcasts.
So the chief of Stoton Pey, Donna McNamera, opened that internal affairs investigation into Matthew Farwell the
day after Sandra was found because she had heard from MSP about Matthew potentially having an illicit affair
with Sandra, violating department policies. So she put Matthew on paid leave starting February 24th. And again,
just to be 100% clear, her internal investigation was only meant to look into Matthew's misconduct, not Sandra's
death. >> Right. Chief McNamera and MSP had an understanding that MSP basically still
maintained the jurisdiction over any criminal activity, even like anything that comes up in the internal
investigation. And if the chief found any criminal culpability, she would basically pass all of that off to MSP.
So like, sure, fine, whatever. That's the deal. >> She's not looking for it, but if she
sees it, she'll hand it over. >> Yeah, I'm not going to take it. So her team starts looking at the phone data
and the laptop that was previously analyzed by state police trooper Nick Garino. And these messages, which appear
in federal and court documents, don't only suggest that Sandra and Matthew's sexual relationship began way before he
originally said, but also that Matthew had disturbing sexual fantasies involving violence against women,
choking, incest, pedophilia, necroilia, and rape. And I want everyone to hear some of these messages so you guys can
get an idea of the tone of the communication between Sandra and Matthew. So I'm going to have a voice
actor reading them because they are really disturbing. So like fair warning to everyone listening and also I don't
want to look you in the eyes while I say feel him inside me. But I think this shows the full extent of Matthew's
behavior. So, in a couple of exchanges, Matthew and Sandra talk about the beginning of their sexual relationship.
>> What was the first day you said, "OMG, I want this guy to be my first. I want to
feel him inside me." >> Yeah. So, 2012, I finally decided that I was going to try and find a way to you
and just wasn't sure how. I had butterflies so bad the day you took my virginity.
>> Me, too. It was such a big day. >> It was April 10th, 2013. Best day of my life.
>> Me, too. >> So, the sexual relationship actually began 7 years before Matthew told police
that it began. >> Yes. And he actually even says that he wishes they'd done it sooner.
>> I wish it had been a year sooner after helping you study at the library. >> I didn't even make you wait a year after
that. >> I absolutely would have you in 12. >> In 12. >> 2012. And in 2012, Sandra would have been
like, "What?" >> She was like 14 or 15. And he knows that this would have been bad for anyone else
to find out. So, he asks her to get rid of their messages. >> Clear that part out, baby.
>> I did. >> Good girl. >> Again, I know how disturbing these are, but I really think it's important for
our listeners to understand the power that Matthew knew he had over Sandra mentally and physically. By the way,
because Sandra was 410, Matthew was 6'4. So, in one exchange, he says, >> "Lol, if I pushed, I absolutely could
have you without condoms from day one. >> I was kind of scared to say no in the beginning, not knowing how you'd take
it. So, yeah, you would have got no condoms." >> Other messages from Matthew revealed
even more disturbing desires. >> Maybe I'll choke you a little. I'll grab your throat and say you won't say a word
to anyone. Well, you say, "Matt, stop. I'm 13. I'm not ready for this. OMFG, please stop."
>> According to sources cited in the Boston Globe, in the year leading up to her
death, there are at least 20 times that Matthew texted Sandra about grabbing her
throat, squeezing her throat, or choking her during sex. In another exchange, Sandra asked,
>> "Do you want me to just take what you do or try and say no? I know being told no
is your favorite." >> Say no. >> Now, of course, all of these messages are from 2019 onward, so we have no way
of knowing what Sandra and Matthew's communication was like before that. But in December of 2020, things took a
notable turn. That's when Sandra texted Matthew about her pregnancy. That's when
she sent him a photo of a colorful poster that she'd made with the word, "Congrats, we're going to be parents."
And this is how he responded. >> "I literally have nothing to say right now. How could you express that in text
when I said I don't appreciate it?" >> I'm mad you're acting how you are over a choice we both made.
>> I'm mad you act like you gave anyone a choice. You are truly the worst person
on the face of the earth. >> Matthew also asked how far along Sandra was. regardless of how far we're keeping it.
But 3 and 1/2 weeks, which means I conceived this month. >> Okay. Well, we need to talk then.
>> No, that's obvious. And on December 29th, 2020, they did talk. This conversation was in person,
so we have no way of knowing exactly how it went. But afterward, Sandra text Matthew this. It made me really
uncomfortable and stressed out and scared when you were next to me because I thought you were going to hit me after
you said what you said and took things out of my hand. That's why I was crying. I know you wouldn't, but it still scared
me. So, clearly he's not happy about the pregnancy. >> I mean, yeah, it's a lot harder to hide
from your wife than just an affair. Well, and at an especially bad time, because I didn't mention this yet, but
when Matthew left Sandra's apartment that night, February 1st, guess where he went? The delivery room, because his
wife was in labor with their third baby. So, yeah, he's about to have a new baby
with his wife, and Sandra is telling him she's pregnant, too. Now, maybe he would
have found some way to keep this under wraps, but on January 20th, Matthew found out that Sandra had been telling
people about their affair. Apparently, he had been under the impression that it was like their little secret, but it was
far from it in Sandra's circles. And apparently, leading up to her death, this friend, who we're going to call
Jill, tried to use that to her advantage. Jill said that her and Sandra got into an argument about some money
that Sandra owed her. And Jill told Sandra that if she didn't start to pay up, she was going to go file a police
report, which she did on January 20th, just weeks before Sandra's death. When Stoen PD told Jill that this was a civil
matter, Jill got upset and in her anger, she over the phone basically said, "Well, like you can tell whatever police
officer detective that Sandra's in a sexual relationship with that he can tell her to pay back the money."
>> And how did the officer on the phone respond to that? They went straight to Matthew and they're like, um, what's
this about? And according to investigative files, Matthew got really rattled and told that person, quote, not
to speak about this to anyone and to never talk about it again. End quote. And whoever he told that to must have
kept their code of silence since we know the internal affairs investigation did not start then,
>> right? >> But that day after Matthew was approached about the affair, he texted
Sandra. Dude, youring friend called my job Sandra WTF. You also told me that no one knew about us. Yet she claimed we
areing. >> It's literally nothing. >> It's not nothing. She called my job. That's insane. Like you have no idea how
bad what she did is. I literally can't believe this is even real life. Like what else do I have to worry about now?
Which other friend will do something tomorrow? And what's so weird is after this
interaction, Matthew just out of nowhere completely changes his tune and starts to speak really positively to Sandra
about their whole situation. And Sandra actually texted her friend about it. So the father came by last night. It was
like a complete 360 change. 180. >> Yeah. Lol. >> Good or bad? >> Good, but unexpected. So, it kind of
threw me off and made me a little uncomfortable, but that's cuz of how things were going, but it was like a
complete 180 from where we were at. On this same night, along with having a heartto-he heart, Matthew also asked
Sandra for a key to her apartment and the code to her building's entrance. But even with him seemingly doing everything
right, like saying the perfect things, there were moments where Sandra felt uneasy, like something wasn't quite
right. The day of that 180° change conversation on January 24th, Sandra texted a friend about something weird.
Last night, he opened my closet door for something and then he went in my bathroom looking at my bathroom. And
then I have a dolly in my living room that he asked why I had it. was just really odd. He started looking around. I
don't know. It was really weird. >> Then on January 29th, Sandra reminded Matthew what the code to enter apartment
complex was. And Matthew asked her to confirm that it was a general code for the entire building, not just like a
personal code for Sandra. And that basically brings us to February 1st, >> the day that Sandra died.
>> Yes. Matthew texted Sandra at around 9:00 p.m. asking if he could come by for
a second. She responded that she would leave her door open for him. And that was the last known message that Sandra
would ever send. I guess I'm confused right now. Like MSP had these messages from Sandra's laptop,
right? Like are they just ignoring them? >> It's really bizarre. So listen, hang on.
I'm just going to read you exactly what they say about the laptop messages in the report. Keep in mind again moderate
actions here, but it says this. Over the next several weeks, I analyzed data from
Sandra's laptop. In particular, I was investigating any criminal conduct related to Sandra's death. And something
redacted here. Sandra's laptop gave me access to approximately 12 months of IME messages, social media content, and
other documents/databases. Matt and Sandra had texted thousands of times over the year, as well as
communication with many other friends and family of Sandra. It was clear based on texts with Matt that he and Sandra
had a sexual relationship, as he told us in his previous interview. Then there's
this big redacted chunk followed by this. All of these conversations were flagged in the forensics report of her
laptop. Sandra communicated often with friends and family. It appeared Sandra had sexual relationships with other men
in the months leading up to her death. There were no threats of harm by any of these individuals, including Matt. End
quote. That's it. That's literally the last sentence on the last page of the MSP report that we received. No threats
of harm, so no criminal culpability. But clearly there is a crime here, right? >> Well,
put possible murder aside. >> Okay. >> Chief McNamera can't look into that, right? Because that's not her
jurisdiction. >> But yeah, the sexual abuse of an explorer within the department she now
is chief of move out the way. Like she is charging full steam ahead. Cuz here's the thing. Along with now being sure
that Matthew abused a minor in the program, other witnesses come forward and say that Sandra told them he wasn't
the only one. According to people who knew Sandra, and I want to preface this by saying much of
this information is unconfirmed, but they say that Matthew Farwell wasn't the only Stoen Police Department employee
who Sandra had a sexual relationship with. She also had one with William Farwell, Matthew's twin brother.
What? When? How? And did did the brothers know about each other's relationships with Sandra? So William is
also an officer with the Stoton Police Department. They also met through the Explorers program because he was a guest
instructor. So when they talk to him, he admits it, but like bad case of deja vu.
He says that he had quote been with Sandra sexually maybe two to three times and the last of which was sometime in
December of 2020. >> But that was when she was also seeing Matthew >> apparently. So clearly there is
something bigger happening here. So Chief McNamera's agency hires multiple PIs and outside consultants and over the
course of nearly 19 months they go down every rabbit hole you can think of. And guess what? It didn't even end there.
Implicated in the internal affairs investigation was another man named Robert Divine who was a former deputy
chief of the Stoton Police Department and the officer in charge of the Explorers program. Robert is actually
the man that brought Matthew and his twin brother into the program as guest instructors. In interviews, Robert first
claims to have no knowledge of the Farwell brother's relationships with Sandra, but then he later clarifies that
Sandra did bring it up to him as a consenting adult, and Robert didn't believe her. According to Robert, while
he and Sandra were never formally in touch, she would often seek him out while he was on duty, offering coffee,
hanging around to talk, and showing what he described as an obsession with police
officers. He said this happened about once a week. So, you know, she's just obsessed with them. What What could they
have done? What could they possibly do, Ashley? >> It's a gross implication to me that like
she was the problem. All because she wanted to be a police officer because she really did love that program. I
mean, Sandra joined the Explorers program in 2010 when she was 13 years old. And apparently, she was drawn to
police officers from a very young age. They represented everything she wanted. Safety, stability, the things that she
didn't have growing up. Family members have said that Sandra deeply respected police, even idolized them. According to
reporting from Boston magazine, she joined the Explorers program not only to fulfill her dreams of becoming an
officer herself, but also to find the mentorship and direction that she craved. But instead, she was prayed
upon. Chief McNamera's investigation found that Sandra and Robert had been formally in touch and communicating by
Facebook Messenger from 2020 up until her death. According to the report, Robert explains this by quote
outrageously making claims about accounts being hacked. In McNamera's investigation, multiple
witness interviewed also described a pattern of inappropriate conduct within the Explorer program, including hugging,
kissing, even encounters in a closet involving Robert and the Farwell brothers, as well as comments like,
"Come back and see me after you turn 18." One witness recalls Sandra talking about the stress officers were under and
the way that they looked for outlets. In the end, McNamera recommends that Robert, William, and Matthew all have
their police certifications revoked and be entered into the National Descertification Index. And there is at
least one other officer from another department found to be complicit as well. I
>> mean, so what now? The men just get like a slap on the wrist. >> Well, they actually all resign before
any sort of action can even be taken, >> of course. And in September 2022, Chief
McNamera holds a press conference about her investigation where she publicly addresses the entire situation for the
first time. >> What I'm about to brief you on is something deeply troubling to me
as a human being and as a police chief. On February 4th, 2021, 23-year-old Sandra Burmore was found
deceased in her apartment in Canton. I am not here today to talk about the subsequent investigation into Miss
Burmore's death. Her death was investigated by the Norfolk District Attorney's Office. What
I am here to talk about today is her life and how she was failed by, manipulated by,
and used by people of authority that she admired and trusted right up until her final days.
Miss Burmore was a vulnerable person who had one constant in her life since childhood.
Her unwavering admiration of police officers, of those serving the military, people in
uniform, people with oaths and duties to protect and serve. The admiration led her to form relationships
with men who were willing to take advantage of her. The Fowler brothers in Divine
violated their oaths of office and should never have the privilege of serving any community as a police
officer. through a sustained and deliberate com combination of lies, deceit, and
treachery. They violated the policies and the core values of the Stoton Police Department,
not to mention human decency. I stand before you today as a civil servant who is heartbroken and insensed
by what has transpired and who pledges to this that this chapter and the Stoen Police
Department and the town of Stoton is over. It must never repeat. The revolving door is closed.
>> Chief McNamera turns all her findings over to the Norfolk DA's office. I assume for prosecution based on her
agency's findings of what would be statutory rape. >> But they declined to press any charges.
>> I'm sorry. What in the good old boys club is happening here? Well, in a 2022 statement, a spokesperson for the DA
says that statutory rape would be difficult to prove given that Sandra, the main witness, was dead.
>> Okay, but she's dead because he might have killed her. Like, this this can't be the loophole. Yeah, Sandra's family
is furious over this. I haven't even spoken much about them yet, but they were fighting for her every step of the
way. I mean, from the second that her aunt was notified on day one about Sandra's quote unquote suicide, she knew
something was up. I mean, not only did she know that Sandra was actually in a really happy place before her death, but
also when her and other relatives went to Sandra's apartment after her death, the place gave all the signs of someone
who did not take their life. When they started going through her things, everything that they saw made it seem
like Sandra's passing was extremely abrupt. There were still wet clothes in the washing machine and unopened
packages, plus more deliveries on the way. She even had cats that she had left unattended when police finally found
her, which made zero sense because she had actually already started making plans to have somebody look after those
same cats while she gave birth, which would have been like 7 months later. But one of the most telling things, I think,
is what her family finds in the bedroom. They found Sandra's necklace, this keepsake from her grandmother. It was
this thin gold chain with like a pink flamingo charm, and it was laying on the floor. The chain had snapped in the
middle, and then there was this clump of hair tangled in it. I >> mean, to me, that feels like a a sign of
a struggle. Did police not see it? >> Well, apparently the necklace was broken and like hanging off of her neck when
they found her, which is documented with photographs, but it wasn't collected. So, I guess officers didn't think it was
relevant. So, when it fell to the floor as they're I assume like moving her body, they either didn't notice it or
like didn't care and collect it. >> And did the family show them? >> Oh, yeah. They handed over the necklace
to police right away, but that apparently didn't change anything for them. So, the family members took it
upon themselves to galvanize the community on social media, getting people who knew Sandra to come forward
and share stories. so many stories that pointed to the Explorer program and stories that helped build out McNamera's
internal investigation. So now to hear that nothing was going to come of it, like that was infuriating. So in
December of 2022, Sandra's family tries a different approach. They file a wrongful death suit in Norfol County
Superior Court, accusing Matthew, William, and Robert of grooming and sexually abusing Sandra from a young age
and implicating them in her death. The family alleges wrongful death, negligent supervision, negligent retention, pain
and suffering, and emotional distress, among other things. And they specifically mention an ongoing scheme
of grooming and misconduct, which they say led to Sandra's death. So that litigation is still ongoing and a
judgment date is set for May of 2026. So Sandra's family members are really the only ones actually looking into her
death as like anything other than a suicide. >> So this is what I was saying where you
get this like moment where you're like the system is not working. Everything's broken
>> but there are good eggs within it. So, we've got Chief McNamera who has this investigation exposing her officers for
their abhorrent behavior. And then maybe because of her, maybe because of something else like another
big case involving Canton PD and MSP that happens in 2022, >> John O'Keefe. >> Yeah. Maybe because of all the pressure
and the spotlight combined, at some point other good people step in and say, "Nah-uh, not on our watch." And that's
the FBI. Now, it's not really clear how the FBI investigation timeline unfolded.
They haven't been very public about that. They aren't known to be very about anything. But on August 28th, 2024,
special agent Chennai Castrida releases a 45page affidavit with all of her findings, and it details exactly what
they think happened and why. Asian Castrita confirms what we already know about Matthew grooming Sandra when
she was a child and lays out Matthew's motive for murder in clear terms. She writes that in October of 2020 when
Sandra heard about Matthew's wife's pregnancy, she went to him with an ultimatum. She wouldn't expose their
yearslong sexual relationship, including the fact that it began when she was underage and that they'd been meeting
while Matthew was on duty if he agreed to try and get her pregnant. Their text even shows Sandra sending Matthew her
ovulation schedule and the two of them planning sexual encounters around it. But when Sandra got pregnant, she
started telling people about it and that wasn't part of the deal. The affidavit actually puts forward that on January
20th when that friend Jill called Stoen PD and spilled the beans about Matthew and Sandra, causing that officer to
question Matthew, that is the very moment that Matthew hatched a plan to kill her. And all those heartto-hearts
after that, Agent Castrida says were quote his attempt to appease Birmore until he could kill her. End quote. And
they have physical proof. They say the FBI analyzed the data from the health app on Sandra's iPhone. Her last
movements were recorded at 9:40 p.m. That is 3 minutes before Matthew was seen leaving her building. So, it's
likely this data shows exactly when Sandra died and Matthew was still inside the apartment. And when he left, he
could have used the key that he had to lock up behind him, >> right? And agent Castrida backs this up
by tapping expert forensic physician Dr. William Smok. He specializes in asphixxiation cases and testified in the
Derek Schovin trial about George Floyd's murder. According to the affidavit, Smok's findings directly contradict what
state police concluded. He pointed out that the fracture in Sandra's hyoid bone, which is at the top of the neck,
didn't line up with the position that she was found in. Smok explained that when someone is found seated, it is
considered an incomplete hanging, meaning that only part of the body's weight is actually pulling on the neck.
And in his deep dive through forensic research, he could not find a single documented case of a woman fracturing
her hyoid bone in that kind of scenario. >> Instead, those fractures overwhelmingly
show up in cases of manual strangulation or when the full weight of the body is suspended. So, he concludes with quote a
reasonable degree of medical and scientific certainty that the cause of Miss Burmore's death is asphixxia and
that the manner of her death is homicide. End quote. And something else really interesting that Agent Castrida
writes is that after Matthew consented to handing his personal cell phone over to state police, he used his work phone
to search and then immediately delete searches for. >> Right. Right. >> Whether deleted iMes can be recovered
and whether someone can revoke consent in Massachusetts. And it's on the last page of this document that Agent
Castrida writes this quote. The information set forth above supports the government's motion to detain Matthew
Farwell pending trial in this case. And that is how on the very date Agent Castrita files her report, Matthew
Farwell is arrested. So how did the FBI get jurisdiction of the case in order to
make the arrest? Like, do they just like trump state agencies by default? >> No. The FBI makes an ingenious move to
charge Matthew with one count of killing a witness or victim, which is a federal
crime charge that often appears in connection with other federal charges, like sometimes in mob cases or crime
rings that span like multiple states. >> But in this case, it allowed the FBI to
step in without involving MSP. >> Exactly. And this charge also happens to be punishable by death. So that same
day, Matthew pleads not guilty at an arraignment. And as of this recording, Matthew has been indicted by a federal
grand jury and his trial is currently scheduled to begin on October 5th, 2026. Until then, he's being held without bail
at a detention facility in Rhode Island. And our reporter, Nicole Kagan, actually
reached out to his attorney for comment, but as of this recording, we have not heard anything back. There is news still
breaking in this case though. The strangest thing to me was broken by the Boston Globe earlier this year. They
wrote that people familiar with the investigation who spoke on the condition of anonymity said that DNA testing
showed Matthew was not the biological father of Sandra's unborn baby. Okay, first of all, who are these sources? I
like need to know. >> Same. But I have no idea. And secondly, the motive still makes sense for me
though cuz if Mat Du thought he was the father, which it really seems like he did from the text messages. Like that's
>> your motive. And also he refused to give his DNA at first, right? Well, also he
had a twin brother who admitted to sleeping with Sandra at the same time. And like my own PSA, I no longer trust
adult twins who work at the same place if that place gives them access to children. I know that sounds specific,
but I just listened to the newest season of Dig and like, >> "Oh, hell no. There is a pattern here."
But there is also another pattern that I found. One with the Explorers program. >> Sandra's story is one that did get a
decent amount of attention and had been kind of like living in the back of my brain since 2022, like is when I first
heard about it. And in digging into that, this local article from here in Indianapolis popped up and grabbed my
attention. It was from April 14th, 2022. It said, "I am PD officer tied to teen suicide ordered to write weekly journal
in rare sentence." >> And that's kind of like crime junkie clickbait. And when I began reading, I
had this weird deja vu. Deleted text messages, the police explorers program. So, I began to wonder, maybe William and
Matthew and Robert weren't a couple of bad apples in the system. What if the program is designed in a way that
actually attracts predators and puts children at risk? Like, parents are sending their kids off to work with the
police because like you couldn't be safer, right? Wrong. The more I looked, the more I found. and our reporter Nina
and I have spent months, the better part of a year, uncovering systematic issues
with the Explorers program. And next week, we are going to be releasing an entire episode with every twisted detail
we found. So, for those of you who don't want to wait, you can actually listen to
that episode right now in our Fan Club app. I think everyone needs to know about it, but it is truly required
listening for anyone considering the program or for any parent who has a kid in it. Like this is something that we
can't just look away from and like hope stuff that like stops happening. We have
to shine a light directly on it. So tell everyone, you know, next week's episode
of Crime Junkie is required listening for everyone so you know what is there and how you can keep your kids and your
friends safe. You can find all of our source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com.
And don't forget, if you want to listen to more episodes like this, all of our episodes completely adfree, and next
week's episode early, be sure to join our fan club. You'll get early access to new episodes every week and bonus
content every month. And you can follow us on Instagram, Crime Junkie Podcast. >> We'll be back next week with a brand new
episode. There's something intuitive in us that if we trust can tell us when we're in
trouble. It's not always an alarm. Sometimes it's a quiet feeling warning you of someone's presence, telling you
that you're not alone. That is the very feeling that woke up 19-year-old Rachel Hansen from sleep one June night in
2022. The adrenaline coursing through her spiked when she opened her eyes to find someone standing over her bed
staring at her. Rachel let out a scream and that sent the person running out of her room and then out of the apartment
completely without ever uttering a word. And that should have been the worst thing that happened to Rachel in that
Gilbert, Arizona apartment. But it wasn't because the very next night when Rachel was asleep in bed just after 2:00
a.m. a dark figure entered her bedroom again, held up a gun and shot her in the abdomen before fleeing. Was the first
break-in unrelated? Or was it a warning, a bad omen of what was to come? To this
day, no suspects have been named. And if you read the heavily redacted 338 page police file that Gilbert Police
Department released in 2024, you'll learn a whole lot of nothing. But to leave it at that is not exactly the
crime junkie nature. So our team did some investigating. Join us as we unravel the mystery of who killed Rachel
Hansen. When the person who shot Rachel Hansen fled her apartment around 2:00 a.m. on
June 4th, 2022, she was still alive. Rachel was bleeding from her abdomen and her upper back where the bullet had
entered and exited, but she could still move, so she grabbed her phone and rushed to the apartment bathroom where
she called 911. Rachel knows that she's in bad condition, so she wastes no time when the call connects. "I've been
shot," she tells them. "Someone broke in and shot me." In about 5 minutes, first
responders are there at the scene, and they start working on her there before rushing her to the hospital. But the
bullet that went through her just did too much damage. And after 3 hours in surgery, doctors couldn't save her. But
here's the tragedy on top of the tragedy. When Rachel went to the hospital and while she was in surgery,
her family had no idea. Our reporter Nicole Kagan spoke to Rachel's mom, Kim Hansen, and she said that no one came to
notify the family until 700 a.m. after Rachel had died. No one called them when Rachel was found or when she was in
surgery at the hospital, which still bothers Kim to this day, knowing that her daughter was there all alone. But
that is far from the only thing that bothers her. There would be plenty more heartbreak and disappointment coming.
She just didn't know it yet. Because like so many people who never have to live the true crime story, when this all
unfolded, Kim was under the impression that the criminal justice system worked, that all detectives knew how to do their
jobs, and that they did them well. Well, that bubble would burst in a hard way, which brings me back to the crime scene.
Now, as far as scenes go, Rachel's was simple to process. According to the police file, aside from the blood on her
mattress and in her bathroom and the bullet and shell casing, nothing seemed out of place. In fact, there was barely
any furniture at all in sight, just her box spring and mattress. I mean, the only thing really notable about the
state of the apartment that I can tell from the police file is the smell because apparently it like reeks of
marijuana. And as officers began canvasing neighbors, they learned that this smell had been there for like the
last 6 months. And over that time, there were random people coming and going from
the unit and loud arguments. And those who lived around unit 3133 assumed that drugs were being sold out of there and
that the young woman who lived there clearly had a bad relationship with her boyfriend, which they would have gotten
a front row to because when Nicole went to this apartment complex, not only are the units pretty close together, but
like just walking the hallway, she could clearly hear people talking and watching
TV inside their apartments. >> Paper thin walls. >> Yeah. But here's what's so strange. On
the night Rachel died, they heard nothing. >> How? I mean, even if you were sleeping,
>> I mean, I feel like you would hear a gunshot. Like, that would totally wake you up, which
>> Yeah. I mean, could they have used a silencer on the gun? >> So, that was my first thought, right?
But I don't know if this killer was being mindful of noise because while there were no signs of forced entry to
Rachel's front door, we actually know from pictures of the apartment that Kim took after it was cleared by police that
someone kicked the crap out of Rachel's bedroom door. And this is one of those details that just like doesn't compute
for me. Like even if Rachel's bedroom door was locked, you can see from the picture, I don't know if like you had
those where it's like you can like use a nail to like turn it. So why go through
the trouble of like kicking it in and making all that noise. And what's even weirder still is that even with the door
kicked in, apparently the neighbors still heard nothing. Like I personally spoke to the neighbor who lived right
across from Rachel and they said that they weren't even sleeping when this happened. They had just gotten back from
bowling at like 1:30 or 2:00 in the morning. They're like fully awake when the shot would have been fired, which
means they would have been awake when the door was kicked in if it happened then, too. And they were awake when
Rachel would have called 911 and awake when police were showing up to the apartment and like talking to the people
who are now across the hall. How did they hear nothing? Not just like the stuff I mentioned, but like no hurried
footsteps, no no running away, nothing. >> No argument. Yeah, they didn't see anything either. and a shady person
lingering I think would have stood out because despite whatever was going on for six months in unit 3133 this was a
nice and safe area like a gated community in fact >> does it have any cameras then
>> oh it does but kind of like the gatedness of this community it feels like it was a little all for show the
leasing office told investigators that there were no operational cameras anywhere in the complex and when Nicole
went to the complex now mind you this is like 3 plus years post homicide. But every time she went down to check the
gate, it's just like wide open. Cool. But building security aside, one of Rachel's neighbors did have a working
Ring camera. And this is the first frustrating roadblock in the highly redacted records that we got. Nearly all
of what they learned from the Ring camera footage is redacted. Some of the only information that is not says that a
camera caught Rachel on June 3rd, like 5 hours before the shooting, so it have been like 9:15 p.m. And she was with a
long-haired man walking to the east on the first floor hall. Now, she lived on the third floor, so this might have been
when she like first gets there. Then a different investigator wrote in another report that at 9:33, quote, "The two are
seen walking away from her apartment, and that Rachel is dressed in what looks like a swimsuit. when they come back,
what other cameras they might have been seen on, I don't know. All redacted. But
listen, we don't need to spiral and speculate too much, at least about who this long-haired man was. Because once
police finally do notify Rachel's family of her death, again, 5 hours after she was shot, they figure that out pretty
quickly. When police knock on Rachel's parents' door, her dad, Todd, answers, her mom, Kim, was actually in Indiana
visiting grandchildren. But officers figure out that the guy with long hair, that is probably Rachel's fianceé, Joet
Bailey. And they learn something else critical. Rachel had just moved back into that apartment. June 2nd was her
very first night staying there. So, she's not who everyone thought was selling drugs and fighting with her
boyfriend. She hasn't been there. >> No. No. And that's also why the apartment was empty. Her dad tells
police that the apartment, it was in Rachel's name, but she had been doing like an offthebook subleting thing for
like the last 6 months. >> And who is this subletter? >> In that moment, dad's not sure. I mean,
it wasn't someone she was super close with. So, it like takes a minute to track that down, which honestly is like
fine because first things first, detectives want to talk to her fiance, Joe Met. Now, the police report says
that they bring Joe Met in the next day, which would have been Sunday, June 5th.
But Rachel's mom told us that that's wrong, that they brought Joe right in after they talked to Todd. So, this
would have been like 8:00 a.m. on the 4th. And she's certain of it. We tried to ask police to verify this, but a
spokesperson for the department said that they could not provide clarifying information citing an active
investigation, and JT didn't respond to a request for comment. But either way, in this interview, which lasts about 4
hours, Jomett is super distraught, but he readily admits to being with Rachel that night. He says that he stayed with
her at the apartment until around midnight when he went home. >> And of course, we can't corroborate that
because we don't know what else was on the Ring cameras. >> Yeah, we can't. But I assume police did
because they end up clearing him after what Kim described as like weeks of merciless interrogation. And Kim and
Todd are on the same page as police. Like they're not suspicious of JT. >> Well, Kim told Nicole that they didn't
have an ounce of doubt that JT was innocent. I mean, day one when like, you know, they were fresh in like the throws
of things, Todd did sit him down and was basically like, "Look, look me in the eyes. Tell me the truth manto man. Did
you kill my daughter?" And apparently Jette looks right at him and without even wavering says, "No, I would never
do that." And they believe him. Kim and Todd had gotten to know Jette really well since he proposed to Rachel earlier
that year. Like they just couldn't see him doing something like this. And Kim says that Jette was absolutely destroyed
in the wake of Rachel's death. And for like 6 months afterwards, he couldn't eat. He had this like tremendous guilt.
He couldn't hold down a job. And he actually lived with the Hansens for a good portion of that time.
>> Did he and Rachel live together? >> No, they didn't. But he did stay with her a lot. And actually between him and
Kim, they're actually able to give police one of the most interesting leads in this whole case because they both
knew about the intruder who'd come into Rachel's room and stood over her the night before she was killed.
>> Wait, did police not know about that right away? >> Well, no, because after it happened,
Rachel didn't call the police about it. >> What? Yeah. So, let me just tell you like the whole story that got pieced
together because it is really strange. In the parks and forest you love, there are stories waiting to be told. I'm
Dillia Deira, the host of Park Predators, a true crime podcast that reminds you sometimes the most beautiful
places hide the darkest secrets. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts. So, Thursday, June 1st is the first day
that Rachel gets access back to her apartment in like the last 6 months. Now, she had no idea what had been going
on there while she was gone. So, she was pretty shocked to find the place a mess.
Like super dirty. And the smell of marijuana was so strong, like replace the carpet strong. So, she knew that
before she began moving any of her stuff back in, she was going to need to do like a really deep clean of this place.
So, that's what she spent Thursday doing. She literally had next to nothing in the place, just her box spring and
her mattress. I mean, there wasn't even food in the kitchen. So that first night
she ends up staying with JT. She comes back the next day, does like more cleaning and that second day is the
first night she's like staying in her place and that was the opening of this story. She is just woken up by this
feeling of someone there watching her in her room. But when she wakes up, the person runs and afterward Rachel didn't
want to be alone. So she texts JT and asked him to come over. I >> I don't get why she didn't want to call
the police >> because I don't think she actually believed that she was in danger. So her
door had been locked. So for this person to get in, they had to have had a key. And because they didn't actually do
anything, she kind of figured that it was someone who was maybe connected to her subletter. Someone who had a key
came in and then when they saw that she was someone else, they realized their mistake and just like booked it. So
she's like chalking this whole thing up to like a misunderstanding. But here's a
weird little fact I cannot let go of. This person didn't do anything. Didn't take anything.
>> Not much to take. But they did leave something behind. A jar of pickles like sitting right there on the kitchen
counter. >> Okay. I didn't know what I thought you were going to say, but jar of pickles
was like very very far down on the list. I >> It's It's so odd. I mean, so weird that
Rachel pointed it out to her mom and Joe met. And I mean, the benignness of this
is probably part of what made her think that this wasn't some like knife wielding maniac and just like a friend
coming to see the wrong person pickles. >> Anyway, that night when she texts Joe
Matt, they decide that like at a minimum they need to change the locks, right? Like cuz even if this person didn't do
anything, who knows how many other people might have keys, right? So Jette grabbed this spare deadbolt from his
dad's house and installed it on her door that night. situation handled. >> Wait, then how would an intruder be able
to get into our apartment the next night? >> This is the part of the story that makes
you just want to like reach back into the past and like if we could change one thing, maybe everything would be
different. So, so this this night, Friday, June 3rd, we know her and Jo are at the apartment together and by the
time Jette leaves around midnight, Rachel was asleep. Now, according to what he told Kim and his own mom, who we
talked to as well, JT woke Rachel up and he's like, "Listen, I have to go, but when I leave, I need you to get up and
lock the door behind me." And it was like a deadbolt. So, you had to physically turn and lock the door. And
Rachel agreed, but then when Joe met left, he said he didn't hear the door lock. So, he actually went back inside
and told Rachel again, like, "Listen, you have to get up and lock the door behind me. Are you going to get up?" And
she said yes. And so he left, but apparently he never heard the door lock. >> So if she fell back asleep,
someone didn't even need a key. They could have just walked right in. Yeah, it seems that way. But they wouldn't
have known that. So this person was either planning on using an old key, which wouldn't have worked, or breaking
in. Yeah, I I mean, I guess so. I don't know what it means. Everything I just told you is about the extent of what you
can learn from the police report. There are a lot of little snippets of information, but with all the
redactions, it's almost impossible to piece together anything coherent. And when we reached out to Gilbert PD to try
and get some clarity, they said that they quote continue to actively investigate Rachel's case. End quote.
But that was about it. And by the way, this isn't just like all we have to work with. This is all that Rachel's own
family has to work with. I mean, for the first 2 years, Kim was meeting with detectives every 4 months or so, but she
rarely learned anything new. and she believed that investigators were working on her daughter's case because that's
what they kept telling her they were doing and she doesn't know how this works, right? Like she has to trust
them. But a lot of trust is lost by the winter of 2024 when Gilbert PD declares Rachel's case inactive. And that's right
about the same time that the Hansen start working with a private investigator named Justin Yentis. He
said that he kind of went into the meeting with them more to just like listen, see how he could advise them.
But after learning Rachel's story, Justin knew that he needed to help. So, he took on the case pro bono and has
been working it ever since. And after talking with him and Rachel's mom and Joe Met's mom and others, it is safe to
say that there is way more bubbling under the surface of this case than the police report would lead you to believe.
Specifically, these conversations that we had revealed three investigative theories. None of them are perfect. They
all have holes, but each also has the potential to be the answer as to what happened to Rachel and why. But to
understand each of them, we almost need to work backwards from the shooting and take them one by one. Starting with the
subletter theory. Now, I'm starting with the subletter theory because if you're looking at this case from the outside,
it seems the most obvious. So, let's rewind to a year before the shooting, June 2021. That is when Rachel moved out
of her childhood home and rented that one-bedroom apartment at the Redstone at Santan Village complex in Gilbert. She
was there for about 6 months when she got her dream job. Basically, she was offered to live and work at a horse
ranch less than 30 minutes away in Queen Creek, Arizona. And Rachel had been working with horses her entire life.
Like, this job would allow her to live in this little cassita on the ranch with the horses literally right outside her
window. Well, plus she could bring her own horse, Dash, with her. Like, she just could not pass this up. But that
meant that she had to find someone to sublet her apartment and like pretty quick. So, she posted an ad on Facebook
Marketplace and through that she connected with a woman named America and they basically just like work out this
deal. So, they didn't know each other before this. According to Kim, no, Rachel and America only met like once or
twice and then America moved in. And remember, Rachel didn't quite go through the proper channels at her apartment
complex to get permission to subleasase. It was very like off the books, which her parents say they were not supportive
of. Both of them tried to talk Rachel out of this arrangement, but she assured them that she and America had met,
everything would be fine. So, for 6 months, Rachel and America had a strictly business relationship. So,
Rachel had no idea what she was up to at the apartment. But Rachel's neighbors had their guesses. Like I said before,
they believed that there were drug sales happening out of the unit. But again, Rachel knew none of this. So, so it's
not like she kicked America out because of everything going on or because she was afraid she was in trouble or going
to get in trouble or anything. >> No, she ended up kicking America out because she got fired from her job at
the ranch. And so without her ranch job, >> she didn't have a place to live. >> Exactly. Which meant that she had to
tell America that she needed to like get out of the apartment ASAP. So everything
moved kind of quick. America leaving, Rachel coming back. And this is the basis for the subletter theory, which is
that Rachel was the target. that whoever shot her was actually targeting America
and didn't know that she had moved out two days prior. >> So, in this theory, are the intruder and
the shooter the same person? >> In this theory, that wouldn't really make sense for them to be the same
person because the intruder would have realized that Rachel was in America on that first night. But, I mean, we know
from neighbors that like people would come and go from there. So, like even if they weren't the same person, it doesn't
mean that they weren't both there for America, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. But don't you think if they
weren't the same person that the first intruder would have come forward, though, like and said like, "Hey, like
this happened. It wasn't me the second night." >> Not necessarily. I mean, like, as sad as
it sounds, if that person's not the shooter, they could be afraid of being pinned as the perpetrator. Or like maybe
they were there to buy drugs and they don't want to put themselves on police's radar for that. especially if, and this
is just a theory, but they especially don't want to be associated with anything drugrelated happening out of
there if there's any chance the shooter could have been targeting America for a related reason.
>> Can you tell if police ever looked into this theory? We think so based on what
Kim told Nicole, like she said that early on in the investigation, police took Rachel's devices, so they had
access to everybody she had talked to. And they told Kim that they were bringing in people for questioning every
day as they went through Rachel's contacts and got warrants for her social media accounts, including Facebook,
which Kim knows is how Rachel met America. Now, from what I can make out reading between the redactions, it looks
like at least one individual who was involved in drug sales while America was living in Rachel's apartment was
questioned, but that seemingly went nowhere. In fact, all we and Rachel's family know about America is her first
name. We don't even know what she looked like. I was just going to ask if she and
Rachel like resembled each other at all. >> No idea. Justin, the PI, said that he's
actively working to connect with America, but he wouldn't give us any more information about how. So, at least
in his eyes, this theory is still very much like on the table. I feel like it seems so unlikely that two different
people would enter the same apartment two nights in a row. >> I know. And so, it's more likely to be
the same person. And if it's the same person, it can't be mistaken identity. Which brings me to theory number two,
the horse ranch theory. Now, I want to note this is one of the theories that the public really ran with after
Rachel's death. But to be upfront with everyone, at least at this point, I think it's the least likely for reasons
that we'll get into. But I am going to lay it out because the context around it is really important in terms of
understanding Rachel's mental state at the time of her death. So, let me rewind to before the shooting in June 2022,
before Rachel ever even moved out of her childhood home in June 2021. We're going
to go all the way back to Rachel's childhood, specifically a period of time that Kim refers to as the Dark Years.
Kim and Todd brought Rachel into their family in February of 2009 when she was just 6 years old. They were experienced
foster parents active in the system for about 18 years and there were about a hundred kids that passed through their
home. Now in 2009 they weren't actively looking to take in any more kids. So it was a surprise when Rachel's case worker
reached out. But it quickly became clear that this wasn't just like a routine call. This was a last resort because
Rachel was in a really bad situation and she needed a new home like right then. You see, Rachel's biom had her while she
was in rehab. And when she got out, she and Rachel went to live with a man that Rachel assumed was her father or
grandfather. But Kim says that this guy was actually an unrelated cocaine dealer. Now, Rachel remembered very
little from this time of her life, but she told Kim that one night her birth mom said that she was going to go to the
store for some milk and then she just never came back. And from then on it was just Rachel and this older guy. And it
is like during this time that people seem to know nothing about. These are the dark years. Like even Rachel
couldn't or wouldn't fill in the blanks. But she was little. All Kim knows is that one day Rachel came home from
kindergarten to find the man that she lived with dead on the floor of the apartment. Apparently an accident. And
then 5-year-old Rachel was promptly taken into a child crisis center in Phoenix. and then placed into a foster
home with a couple who promised that they would adopt her. But 6 months later, they changed their minds. So that
is when Rachel's case worker called Kim. Now, when Rachel got to the Hansen house, she fit in perfectly. I mean,
there were nine other little boys and girls, and Rachel like fell right in the middle, which meant that there were
always like other kids to play with. Plus, she loved her new school, but the trauma from those dark years was like
impossible to ignore. And Rachel ended up being diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder, which meant that
like forming, I'm sure you know this, forming healthy relationships with caregivers was like incredibly hard for
her. And for a while, nothing seemed to break through until Rachel herself suggested something unexpected. Horses.
>> Oh, like ecoin therapy. >> Exactly. Like six-year-old Rachel likely didn't know that ecoin therapy was a
thing, >> but like Kim says she was just drawn to horses. Like she would ask to be around
them constantly. So, I mean, Kim's like, "Why not?" >> Yeah. >> And from the moment that they got Rachel
her first horse, there was like no going back. She fell head over heels in love with being a horse owner, and it helped
her build confidence. It just like blossom as a young girl, >> horse girl, >> as as a horse girl. I'm sure you know.
>> And listen, this passion stuck with her through middle school and high school.
She ended up graduating early at just 16. She earned a full scholarship to Northern Arizona University. And all the
while in her free time, she was still riding, still caring for, still working with horses. First her own, and then she
was being hired by others to care for theirs. And after graduating from high school, she decided to make these gigs
official by like starting her own business with >> like a college side hustle. >> No. So Rachel never ended up actually
like going to college. She enrolled, she made the arrangements, right? She got that full scholarship,
>> but she was going to begin her freshman year. And then like a week before moving, Kim says that Rachel had this
like panic attack. Like being that far from home suddenly felt super overwhelming to her. So instead of going
to college, Rachel told her mom that she was ready to start her life now, like she'd get her own place, focus on her
business. Like if she wanted a degree, like she could go back and do that later. But I mean, it's also pretty rare
to like know what you want to do that young. So when Rachel got the offer to live and work at the horse ranch in
Queen Creek, clearly she couldn't turn it down. This was her dream job and it only took her 30 minutes away from home.
So, how did things go sideways? It sounds like it happened gradually. So, the owners of the ranch, Liz
Robinson and Amanda Krugan, they didn't respond to us on advice of their attorney, and they wouldn't speak to Kim
and Todd's PI either, but our reporter Nicole was able to reach their attorney. So, what I'm going to outline is
everything I know from Nicole's conversation with their attorney, her conversation with Kim, and then the
little we can glean from the police file. So, it sounds like things at the ranch started out great. I mean, Rachel
got the impression that the owners didn't necessarily know a whole lot about horses, but like she didn't mind.
Like, this is her job. I mean, she loved the work and she was getting paid to do
it. Like, this was amazing. But then things started going wrong. in an interview in the police file, which I'm
gonna guess is with Amanda, like her name. I only guess this because her name was left unredacted one time. Like I
don't that was a mistake, but in this interview it says, quote, "Rachel was not keeping up with the agreement
regarding training the horses." End quote. >> What was the agreement? >> Nicole asked Kim and she gave us this
example. So, there was a young horse that Rachel was training for riding. And if you know anything about horses, you
know that you can't just like hop on one once it's big enough and expect to be able to ride it. Like
>> it's like a process. It's a long thing. >> Yeah. Like it it takes a while before
someone can get on a horse and like get on a horse and it be safe. But Kim says that apparently the owners felt like
Rachel was moving too slowly. They wanted her to get on this horse like ASAP. Now Rachel told her mom that she
knew the horse wasn't ready, but she was afraid that if she refused, she would get in trouble. So, she got on the horse
and within like 30 seconds, the horse threw her off. Now, she wasn't injured, but that moment created a trust fracture
basically between Rachel and the owners. And it feels like things just went downhill from there. Like, there was
this one time that Rachel quote caused approximately $10,000 worth of damage to a horse trailer end quote. There was
another time that Rachel needed surgery on her finger after being kicked by a horse, which led to a disagreement with
the owners about when she could safely return to work. But the final straw came in May of 2022. So Rachel had helped
broker a sale, like one of the horses at the ranch in exchange for three other horses. But only one horse arrived. And
so because this deal fell apart, layered on top of everything else, the owners fired Rachel. And so this is right
around May 24th, 2022. And this took a huge toll on Rachel's mental health. There's actually an incident outlined in
the police report that says on May 27th, so this is 3 days later, Rachel took her
handgun and drove up to Sedona and she called the ranch owners, told them she was thinking about suicide. Thankfully,
they called 911 and police were able to get to her before she did anything and they were able to convince her to check
herself into Verde Valley Medical Center for treatment. And I want to add that it
wasn't just the job that was weighing on Rachel. She and Jo were having relationship troubles, too. And to make
everything worse, the day after Rachel was admitted for treatment, she learned that the owners of the ranch were
refusing to return her horse Dash until they received $5,000 that Rachel allegedly owed them for services
rendered to Dash while she was living on the property. Like things like vet care,
feed, stuff like that. The owners basically gave Rachel's dad, Todd, their attorney's number and is like, "Listen,
work it out with him." So, hearing that her horse was essentially being held for
ransom, Rachel decided she needed to like get out of this treatment center ASAP. Like, she had to sort everything
out. Dash's return, her relationship with Joette, moving back to her apartment now that she had nowhere to
live. >> So, on June 1st, we're now like right here, this is the first day she's back.
She checks out. As we know, the next day we get the pickle intruder. >> Mhm. And then after that we get the
shooting. So I guess what's the theory that the owners targeted Rachel >> basically. And this this what I'm saying
like it it's far-fetched in my mind. >> Well yeah especially when they were the ones to call 911 about Rachel's like
mental health incident. >> I know. But for some reason this is the one theory that got like a ton of
traction online and even in the news. Liz and Amanda's attorney said that everybody was taking a to Facebook and
like dragging his client's names through the mud, accusing them of Rachel's murder. People started leaving them
harassing messages and like calling investigators about them. I >> mean, are these women dangerous? Like I
I I guess I'm like missing the jump here. >> Yeah. So, like from what we found, like
they both have criminal records, but like mostly for driving infractions, nothing violent.
>> Okay. >> And Kim said that Rachel never felt like she was in danger at their ranch. It was
actually Amanda and Liz who gave Rachel the handgun that she took to Sedona. They gave it to her for protection like
earlier on, but because there was so much negativity swirling around the ranch owners with Dash and the job,
everyone, I think, just like kind of jumped to this conclusion. Now, Liz and Amanda's attorney said that they both
spoke to investigators within the first few days of the murder and they were cleared based on alibis. And he also
said that he thought the police files were over redacted, which like same. But in his case, if Liz and Amanda really
were cleared right away, then I would think that there are lines that could actually like prove their innocence like
in the file, like why wouldn't we? And I think they would even look back. >> Yeah. And with the files being so
redacted, it's just keeping Liz and Amanda under public suspicion. >> Exactly. >> Did the Hansens ever get dashback? I
don't want to like too hard. >> Yeah. No, they did. So Liz and Amanda's attorney said that the fee was paid and
that the Hansens were able to get Dash back. I think it was like a month after Rachel was killed. So this brings me to
my third theory. The Gary Bailey theory, aka Joe's dad. What? >> So remember how I said Rachel and Jo
were having relationship trouble around the time she was fired? Yeah. >> Well, a lot of that tension centered
around Gary, his dad. By all accounts, he and Rachel did not get along. Jo was extremely close with his dad. And Nicole
actually spoke with Jett's mom, Ava, for this episode. And she said that Jette didn't have many friends because he and
Gary would just like do everything together. Like to the point where Ava actually felt bad for her other son.
Now, things were fine at first when Rachel and Jo got together, but their relationship progressed pretty fast.
Like 8 months after they met, they got engaged. And the closer Rachel and Joe met got, the more Gary had someone to
compete for Joe Met's attention. And Rachel told her mom, Kim, that she felt like Gary was disturbed by the
possibility of losing Joe Met. So, he intentionally would try to cause conflict between them. And to make
everything worse, right around the time Rachel and Joe met were getting really serious, Ava filed for divorce from
Gary. Something that she'd been wanting to do for a long time. And may I take you on a quick side quest. You never
have to ask for permission, but of course. >> So, I need to tell you about Ava and
Gary's relationship. So, back in 2015, she told us that she had been suspicious Gary was cheating on her. So she put a
recording device in his work truck every day for a month. He ran a landscaping business. Spent a lot of time riding
around his truck. So if something was going down, she knew this is where she would catch wind of it.
>> Girl got more than just wind. She got recordings of Gary on tape >> cheating on her with the men he
employed. >> What? Yeah. So she went to Gary with these recordings being like, "I know
what you've been doing. I want a divorce. Literally, you can have everything. I just want the kids. But
freaking Gary, he's like, "Oh, that's not me cheating. I knew you were recording, so I staged all of this." I'm
sorry. I know. We tried every possible way to reach Gary for this episode, but he
never got back to us. But I know from Ava that in response to her request for a divorce, Gary apparently said that he
wanted to take Ava to court over it. So, not wanting to lose her kids, Ava promised herself that she would stay
with Gary until all the kids were adults. Which brings us to September 2021. Ava was ready to end it and she texted
her bishop to like let him know. But what she didn't know is that when she texted her bishop, she made a group chat
with Bishop and Gary. >> That's like constantly my worst nightmare. >> And when Gary received that text, dude
lost it. Apparently, he had this major personality shift and he started acting really strangely. Him and Ava started
sleeping in different rooms and Ava said that she heard that Gary was bad mouthing her all over town and at
church. Nicole actually spoke to one of these church members. Her name is Jennifer Simmons. And she said that
Gary's whole temperament changed so much, like he was just angry all the time and constantly ranting that they
started referring to him as scary Gary and like avoiding him at all costs. And things just escalated from there. In
November 2021, there was this one day where Gary recorded himself barging into an apartment that Ava was staying at,
saying like awful things about how she was cheating on him and that he was there to catch her having sex. Mind you,
Ava was like fully clothed watching TV in her bedroom. And she called the police after this, but not before Gary
sent the video to their entire family and like people from church. >> A video of her watching TV. Yeah,
>> dude. You're the only one who looks bad in this video. Scary Gary. >> I know. So, after this incident, that's
when Ava got an order of protection against him. Then, in December, there was an instance where the Hansens
actually had to kick Gary out of their home because of the way he was speaking about Ava at their dinner table. That
was like the first and only time that he was ever in their house. And right after
that, Joe met proposed to Rachel, which apparently just like sent Gary off even more. He started conflating the two
women in his head. Ava said that he started calling Ava Rachel and Rachel Ava. And according to what Kim said
happened next, it sounds like things might have finally come to a head. On April 27th, 2022, this is like just over
a month before Rachel would be murdered. Everything boiled over. So Rachel was at
a point where she was like fed up with Gary inserting himself into her relationship with JT. So according to
Ava, Rachel texted Jet an ultimatum. It is either your dad or it's me. The conversation spiraled. Jette messaged
back that he was tired of life and that he was experiencing suicidal thoughts. So Rachel panicked, tried calling him,
but he like wasn't answering. Wasn't even answering for his mom either. So Rachel drove to Gary's house to see if
Joette was there. He wasn't, but Gary was. He was actually in his car in the driveway. And at this point, Rachel
might have actually been happy to see him because she knew if Joette was going to answer the phone for anyone, it was
going it was his dad, right? >> But she asked Gary to call him and Gary's like, "No, he refused."
>> Why? Gary's like, "Well, you know, I don't I like basically he said he didn't
take the suicide threat seriously, but like Rachel still was." So, she blocked the driveway with the car that she was
driving and refused to let Gary leave until he would call his son. And what happens next happened fast. Gary put his
car in reverse, backed into the car that Rachel was in, tried and failed to pull
her out of it, and then like gave up and drove away right over the front lawn. Now, when this happened, Rachel called
police, and then shortly after they arrived, JT was found. He's safe. But Rachel, understandably, is like totally
shaken up. Yeah. According to the police report, officers found her crying in front of Gary's house. And she recounted
the whole confrontation to them, including another chilling detail. She said that day, Gary sent her a text that
read, "If I ever see you in my house again, I will shoot you in the head." And she said that he had been
threatening her for a while. Now, no charges were filed after this. And then Rachel was killed. And what is JT saying
about all this? Like whose side is he taking? He seemed to have been torn down the middle. Like I said, he never got
back to us for this episode. But what I do know from his mom, Ava, is that he and Rachel's relationship got so rocky
after this that they actually called off their engagement. And then, as you know,
Rachel gets fired. Her mental health declines. She spends some time in that facility. But her first night out,
remember she goes to clean her apartment, but then rather than staying there or going to her parents, she
actually went to Ava's to stay the night with Jette. And Ava said they basically
just like she calls it like hitting the reset button. They talked everything out
and got to a really good place. So that's June 1st. >> June 1st. Yes. And Ava said the next
day, June 2nd, >> intruder. >> Yes. That day, one of her daughters told Gary that about the rekindling, that
they're like back together. Oh, >> and Gary is pissed. Then there is a part of June 3rd that I haven't told you yet.
>> So, the night of the shooting, J is with Rachel, right? Yeah. And he's there till
like midnight. Well, here's the interesting part. He wasn't planning to leave. He was actually sleeping shortly
before he left. The only reason he left was because he got a call from his dad telling him to come home.
What? Mhm. Wait, what? Like, why is he telling him to come home in the middle of the night
on the same night that Rachel got murdered? There is no explanation in the police records that you could see, but
we found one somewhere else. So, remember that woman, Jennifer, who went to church with Gary?
>> The woman who gave us the scary Gary moniker, right? >> Thank you, Jennifer. So, she said that
Gary told the whole congregation why he called on the morning of June 5th at church. So, apparently Scary Gary showed
up to church by himself, went up to the pulpit to, you're going to love this phrase, give testimony.
And he allegedly said of the night before, quote, "I called JT to come home because the Holy Spirit told me so and
it saved his life." End quote. So, so he called Jet home because he had some kind
of revelation. >> That's what Jennifer said. Yeah. >> I still don't understand the reason for
the call though. Like, did he just say come home and Jo is just so loyal to his dad still that he leaves no questions
asked? Or was it something like I know something bad's gonna happen, get home, and then Joette just left his fiance to
fend for herself. >> Like, and if that's it, like this would have been after an intruder had been
there the night before change the lock, >> right? Like when she's already scared
and like maybe needs someone there. Also, if it's really the Holy Spirit speaking to Gary,
why didn't he mention anything about Rachel? Literally, Jennifer said that she asked him that and he said, "I only
received revelation about my son, not her." Yeah. Okay. Listen, the more conversations people at church had with
Gary, the more suspicious they became of him. We haven't been able to corroborate
this, but Jennifer said that many of the women in her ward called the police to report him acting strangely.
>> So then that means the police looked into him. I mean, he's actually mentioned on the second page of the
police chronology report from the night of Rachel's death, which in the timeline
is before Rachel even had been pronounced dead. An officer noted the death threats from Gary that Rachel had
reported weeks before. But get this, according to Kim and Ava, to this day, Gary has never been brought in for
questioning. Now, Nicole asked like how they knew this, and Kim said that she had asked the chief of police face to
face why Gary was never interviewed. And he said, "Because we can't force somebody to talk."
>> Have they tried? >> Kim said that the police told her that they left a phone message. They've tried
to follow him. They've reached out in all these like different ways and he's just never responded. Much like, by the
way, we reached out to him in all these different ways. And Gary has never responded to us. And we tried phone,
mail, text. Nicole even stopped by his church in Gilbert, but we have not been able to make contact with him either. I
mean, if you have nothing to hide, why not clear your name? Especially because according to Ava, Gary couldn't have
been the one to pull the trigger. >> What do you mean? >> So, she told us that Gary was home with
their daughter the night of the shooting >> all night. >> I don't know, but like that's what Ava
told us. And listen, I don't think she has a reason to want to give this guy an alibi. So, I don't think she's covering
for him. In fact, basically in the same breath, she was saying he couldn't have pulled the trigger, but she was also
telling us that Gary had a history of talking about Hitman. And Jennifer from his church backs this up, too. They both
told us that he would go around basically telling people that if you ever want to like off someone, the best
thing to do would be to hire someone who is really hard to track and like the case would just be impossible to solve.
Cool. Cool. So, let me just play this out for a sec. If Gary hired someone to kill Rachel,
where does the intruder the night before come in? >> All I can put together is that maybe the
first night was like a trial run or like a super inexperienced hitman. >> Like one that would use a silencer but
then kick down a door. >> Yeah. Like maybe I mean maybe the first one wasn't even like a hitman at all.
Maybe the first one was someone Gary knew. Then like they go in, >> they realize they're not a hitman.
>> Yeah. Rachel wakes up and they're like, "Yep." Yeah. In over my skis, >> but also brought pickles.
>> Dude, the pickle. I am obsessed with the pickles. I was trying to look up like,
"Was this a symbol? Like, what could this mean?" Like, I even made Nicole find out exactly what kind of pickles.
Like, and Kim's like, "It's a medium sized standard jar of pickles. Kosher dill in case you were wondering."
>> Got it. >> And it didn't look like they had been opened. >> Wait, so Kim saw the pickles herself? Oh
my god, I haven't I have to tell you about this part. So, I think this encapsulates so well why Kim, Rachel's
mom, has lost so much faith in the investigation and those leading it. So, Kim knew about the pickle jar because
after that person came into Rachel's apartment the first night, >> she's like, "Hey, mom, this weird thing
happened and also they left pickles." >> Yeah, here's a super weird detail. Well,
Kim said in the days after the shooting when her and Todd were told by police that they could finally go get Rachel's
things from the apartment, they opened the door and the pickle jar is just like sitting right there on the counter.
Police didn't collect it. >> I mean, Kim and Todd at the time assumed that they must have like at least like
fingerprinted it or something cuz by then they told police the story of the person who came in the night before and
left the pickles. Mhm. >> So, they're assuming police, you know, did the bare minimum.
>> Yeah. Did Did their job, >> right? Like fingerprinted it to see what strange person was in her place,
>> right? >> So, Kim just like took it home along with Rachel's clothing, which by the way
was also left behind. And the jar sat in her garage for a while until she ultimately decided that it was time to
throw it away. But Kim has come to regret that now because she told Nicole that in one recent conversation with
police, she asked them about the pickle jar. And they looked right at her and they said, "What pickle jar?"
You've got to be kidding me. Nope. They said that they never saw a pickle jar. What do you mean never saw one? There
was nothing else in the apartment. It was literally just her bed and pickles. >> Pickles, which this started to make us
feel like maybe we were losing our minds or like the whole pickle thing got conflated with something else over the
years. Like maybe people are mistaken. Like we just couldn't make sense of it. Why would you not take the one thing
that might be evidence in an apartment where you have barely anything to work? >> Literally nothing. So, our amazing
reporter Nicole combed through everything that we have from Gilbert PD files, blurred body cam footage, and
there are no mention of Pickles at all, except God bless this tenacious little reporter. There is one barely audible,
off-handed comment caught at the very end of one officer's police body cam as he's walking through Rachel's apartment.
And I've got it here for you to see. Watch the blood on the floor. Very empty. This one store was closed.
>> I don't know. >> All right. That's kind of weird. It's kind of a weird thing to ask for, huh?
No pickles. No pickles. No pickles. Now, here's the tricky part. I don't know the date of this video, and Gilbert
PD wouldn't give us the date, but it must have been after the Hansen's took the pickle jar home because Kim said
that in the empty apartment, it was like impossible to miss. And yet, we're here.
Listen, I don't even know how important the pickle jar is to this investigation,
but now we will never know. >> I mean, at the very least, it could have helped identify the first intruder.
Yeah. And by the way, speaking of other identifiable things, when the shooter kicked in Rachel's bedroom door, they
left a pretty clear partial shoe print. Like, did police do anything with that? I mean, they left the door there. They
took it. >> So, I don't know. And listen, this is my call out to all the sneaker heads. Like,
come out and tell me if you recognize this pattern on the door. But you can see like all of this, like this is what
makes Kim worried that she'll never know who killed her daughter. Kim said Gilbert police told her that they have
exhausted every lead. But even Justin, the PI doesn't know what Gilbert PD is up to, if anything. And he is probably
the closest with the department of anyone that we spoke to. According to him, if this case is going to be solved,
it's because someone courageous is going to come forward with information, which
is why Kim wanted us to share Rachel's story with Crime Junkies. Coming up on 4 years, Kim's greatest fear is that
Rachel's story will be forgotten. It's actually why she created Rachel's Rescue, which is a dog and puppy rescue
in her daughter's memory to keep Rachel's story alive. We're actually going to link out to it in the show
notes if you're in Arizona and looking for a new furry family member. Kim wants people to keep talking about Rachel, to
know her case, and most importantly to speak up if they know something, anything about her murder. So, if you
have even the smallest bit of information that could help move Rachel's case in the right direction,
listen, there are a lot of ways you can come forward. You can reach out to the Gilbert Police Department at
48-503-6500. Or if you want to remain anonymous, you can call Silent Witness 48-948-6377.
There is a posted reward for information that's now up to $20,000. And listen, if you feel more comfortable
or have any trouble reaching Gilbert PD, you can reach out to Justin Yentis at Arizona Investigative Associates by
calling 6022522474. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website,
crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkie podcast. We'll be back next
week with a brand new episode. Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.
>> And I'm Brett. >> And today's story begins on a Wednesday evening in May 2020. It's just before
5:30 p.m., and Alicia Cordova, is doing her dishes in her kitchen when her 5-year-old daughter, Capri, comes
running in from the hallway saying, "Something's wrong with dad." Jan's mom, her iPod touch, saying that her and her
brother were facetiming with their dad, 40-year-old Nick Cordova. But then all of a sudden, they heard a bang and their
dad stopped responding. What Alicia saw and heard on that call has haunted her every day for the six years that she's
been fighting to get her husband justice. And despite a mounting pile of circumstantial evidence that she has
collected pointing to who might be responsible for his murder, no arrests or charges have ever been made in this
case. Now it feels like the only way that this case will ever be solved is if we turn up the pressure on Gilbert
Police Department. So, let's go, crime junkies. This is the story of Nick Cordova.
May 27th, 2020. 17 hours 30 minutes 36 seconds. >> It's okay to breathe. >> Your emergency.
>> Yes. So, someone I'm on FaceTime with my husband. My kids are FaceTiming and someone came in and started like beating
him. I think they have your address. >> He's at Gilbert Air. Gilbert Air in um Gilbert Air. I don't even address right
now. I'm freaking out. >> Is he at work? >> Yes, he's at work. His address is 511
West Guadalupe Road, number 13. >> Okay. 511 West Guadalupe Road. >> Yes. Nick, is he still there?
>> I I can hear things moving around, but I don't hear see anyone. Dr. Get out of
the room, please, babe. Nick. And you're calling from Scottsdale? >> I'm calling from Scottsdale. We were
facetiming. My kids are facetiming him and then I just heard screaming. I thought it was a joke and someone
somebody came in. >> Okay. This is your husband's work. And it's Gilbert Air. >> Yes, my husband's work. Gilbert Air.
It's It's just him and his manager that worked there. But someone came in and I think they're just like beating him. I'm
pretty sure I saw a gun. I still have him on FaceTime, but I can't see anything. Babe. Okay. Are you hearing
anything? I just hear moaning. I don't know if it's him or the manager. >> Okay, I've got I've got help on the way.
Okay, >> please hurry. Hurry, hurry. >> The cops are coming, babe. >> How many people did you see in there?
>> I didn't see anyone. I just saw like the the phone like rustling around and then
I'm pretty sure I saw a black glove or gun above. I didn't hear any shots or anything though. I just I could hear him
saying, "What?" like yelling, screaming. Someone was hitting him. >> Okay. My kids had their freaking phone
and they saw it. >> Okay. All right. Who's there? Who is that? I'm on the phone. Who's on the
phone? Who is that? >> They Who's there? Pick up the phone. >> David, who? Dave.
Dave, pick up the phone. >> Got it. >> What is going on? Where is my husband? I have the police on the phone.
>> You don't know who's here? >> Where's Nick? >> Do you know who this gentleman is?
>> He's He's not there. Someone came in. >> Is he okay? >> What's going on, Dave?
>> Ma'am, tell me what's happening. Who is the guy you're talking to? >> His co-workers there. His partner. Oh my
gosh. Is he okay? Dave, >> is that his coworker? >> Dave, tell me what's going on. Is he
okay? >> Ma'am. >> Who is Dave? >> No. >> Can you please answer my question? >> Dave, Dave's his partner. Dave's his
partner. He just came into the building. I don't know. >> Okay. I need you to tell me what is
happening. I've got officers on the way. >> I don't know. He's just saying, "Oh my
god." He grabbed the phone and just said, "Oh my god." Dave, is he okay? Is he breathing?
Dave, answer me. Dave, is he okay? Is he okay? >> Dave, is going on? >> At this point, Alicia can't take all of
this unraveling through a screen. So, keeping the FaceTime going, she tells her kids to get their shoes on and
rushes them into the car to drive to Nick's office herself. During the 20-minute ride over, as she is hauling
down the freeway, Alicia is calling her mom and then Nick's mom, who calls Nick's sister and Nick's nephew,
everyone she can think of who needs to know that something is wrong. When she finally gets to the offices of Gilbert
Air, the HVAC company that Nick owned with his partner Dave Sweetman, she parks her car behind some bushes, kind
of like away from the building because at this point she is thinking that Nick might be hurt and she doesn't want her
kids to see that if he comes out beat up or bleeding or something. So, she gives
them her phone to play on, tells them to stay in the car, that their dad is strong, he's going to be fine, and then
she belines it for the building. And that's when she sees the crime scene tape and what looks to her like a
million police officers everywhere. And her first thought is to look around for ambulances. Like if Nick was attacked,
they should be taking him to the hospital. But there isn't any ambulance in sight. And that's when Alicia starts
running. She runs right through the yellow tape yelling, "Where is my husband? What happened?" and officers
are trying to hold her back, but no one is answering her questions. She said she
felt like she was standing there for 20 minutes just repeating, "What the happened?" And after what feels like a
lifetime, finally, an officer pulls her aside and delivers one line that will change the trajectory of her life
forever. I'm sorry to tell you, your husband's dead. And that's when Alicia just loses it. She just falls to her
knees crying uncontrollably and all while trying to make sure that her kids can't see her do it. Now,
officers write in their reports that Alicia is inconsolable and in disbelief of the situation. But even in her state,
she has the wherewithal to ask one question. Where is Dave? >> Is Dave still alive?
>> No. Yeah, he is. But the way that they encountered Dave and honestly the whole
scene is really bizarre. So according to the police file, when a Gilbert police officer arrived, the first thing he saw
as he walked up to the front door was someone like peeking through the blinds of the office window. And as the officer
got closer with his weapon at the ready, he heard a man saying through the window
like, "I'm Dave. I'm Dave." So, the officer ordered Dave to open the door and come out. But instead, Dave barely
opens it, hands the officer a bloody gun by the barrel, and said, "I'm his partner. That's my gun. I'm sorry. Oh my
god." Now, the officer put the gun on the ground outside and then tried to open the front door to walk in, but it
wouldn't budge. >> Is Dave blocking them from coming in? >> No, Dave's not blocking them. Nick
actually was. He he his body was lying on the floor on his side with a pool of blood around him completely unresponsive
and he had blood all over his face and it looked like there was a bullet hole in his left cheek. Now I don't know what
protocol is when you need to get inside a crime scene and something at the scene
itself is preventing that. Personally, I don't know. I might have tried to find another entrance. This officer though
decided to just push through the door until Nick's body moved enough for him to squeeze through. And once he's in, he
saw a clear sign there of a struggle. So, just to give you a picture, when you enter the front door of the office, you
walk into this little lobby space, and it has like a reception desk. From there, if you go through the first
doorway on the left, you can get to the office space where Nick and Dave's desks
were. Now, Nick's desk, when you walk through that entryway, it was the first one beyond the doorway, and Dave was
about 12 feet away near the far wall. Now, according to the police report, Nick's desk had been pushed out of
place, which they can tell from like the indents that were in the carpet. >> And there are just these things strewn
all over the floor, like Nick's monitor. There's money, business cards, this black electrical box, a bag of what they
report looks like contraband. They find a human tooth, a potato with a hole gouged out of one side. And I've seen
people online actually take to assuming that maybe that potato was like used as a silencer, but that is not stated
anywhere in the police report. But there are multiple bullet holes around the room. So there is one above the light
switch. There's another in the lobby desk. And then the window frame behind Nick's desk has one as well. Now, I
mentioned money. There is some money by Dave's desk, too. though his desk itself
appears quote not to have been disrupted by the struggle. But the bottom right drawer is open and inside of it is an
empty handgun case and an empty magazine. >> So I hate to repeat her question, but
I'm going to ask exactly what Alicia asked. Where is Dave? >> Well, while one officer was getting his
bearings, Dave was quote acting hysterical and pacing back and forth. So, I mean, right then and there,
another officer actually detained him and put him in cuffs. And it's in that moment that Dave spoke up again and he
said, quote, "I'm his partner. Two guys came in here. Two guys came in here. They left. They ran." End quote.
>> So, Dave's incuff. Is he being arrested? >> No. The officer specifically informed
Dave that he was not under arrest. He was just being detained for questioning. And right there at the scene, Dave is
mirandized and he gives kind of this hasty interview and he says basically he was at his desk when two Hispanic men
wearing green shirts and face masks came into the building trying to sell Nick Freon, which do you know what Freon is?
>> Yeah, it's used in like older air conditioning units, right? >> I Yes, I did not know what Freon is. I
had to look it up, but you're totally right. So, it's something that could be common like or at least could be common
to sell in an HVAC world. But what I found out was Gilbert Air definitely didn't buy Freon like that. But Dave
said that for some reason it looked like Nick knew these guys >> knew these guys in masks.
>> Well, when I say masks, I thought the same thing, but these were co masks, not
like ski mask. So like >> this happening like May 2020, right? >> Exactly. So I think you can kind of see
a phase where you could recognize someone. Anyway, Dave says that the men said something to Nick and then there
was some kind of commotion and then they turned to Dave and started pointing their guns at him. So Dave says he gave
them his wallet and gave them the money in his pocket. Quote, "Everything he had
and then the men hit him in the back of the head with what Dave thought was one of their guns and then they fled the
scene." >> Wait, so when was Nick shot then? >> Well, Dave says he doesn't know. Says
that he never even heard a gunshot. Did they knock him unconscious? >> He He doesn't know. He's just like He's
just basically saying he doesn't remember much after he got hit in the head. Now, aside from Dave, there was no
one else in the office at the time of the shooting. The office manager who worked there, Lynn, she gets to the
scene once she gets word about everything that's going on, and she tells police that when she left work
that day at around 5:00, only Nick and Dave were inside. But she knows what Alicia and Dave all know, that there are
several surveillance cameras inside the building, which Dave says should have recorded everything. So, while Gilbert
PD sends an analyst to the scene to review that footage, an officer escorts Dave to a patrol car so they can do a
more formal interview with him down at the station. But right about then comes the first sign that something might be
off. Because remember how Dave said that he gave the intruders his wallet and his
money and his pockets and >> Yeah. He said he gave them like everything he had. Right.
>> Exactly. Well, imagine this officer's surprise when he's patting Dave down and
finds more than $1,000 cash in his front left pocket. Some cases fade from headlines. Some
never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold
cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue
justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard, and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you
ready to be dealt in? Listen to the deck now, wherever you get your podcasts. When Dave is confronted with the fact
that his story is already crumbling, he clarifies to the officer, "No, they didn't take all my money. I only gave
the suspects the money in my front right pocket." >> But that's not what everything I have
means. >> Definitely not. >> And how much cash is this guy keeping in like all the pockets of his pants? I
think that would have been a great follow-up question to ask, but I don't see that being asked in the records that
I have. So Dave gets driven down to the station and just after 700 p.m. that's when he's interviewed. And his story now
is this. It was a robbery gone wrong. Dave says that he was getting ready to leave work when the crime took place. So
he says he sees Nick on the phone as he's walking towards the exit, waves, gives him a fist bump as bros are known
to do >> naturally. But then when Dave got to the front door, he realized that he had like
forgotten a bill on his desk or something. So he turned around and then just as he started looking for this
thing on his desk, he heard the front door chime. And then he looked up and saw the two men. One of them, he says,
approached Nick with what looked like a box of Freon. And then the yelling and fighting started. David looked up from
his desk, saw one of the men coming toward him with a gun pointed at him. And then Dave says that the man told him
to get on the ground and give him his money, which Dave did >> kind of >> kind of. And then the man hits Dave on
the head, which he says might have knocked him unconscious because then he really doesn't remember anything after
that. And listen, officers do find that Dave has a cut on his right hand and a lump on the right side of his head.
>> So then Dave had to have been unconscious when Nick was shot. >> Well, except his story keeps going. Now,
he says that he heard Nick in a struggle and then he also heard a loud bang, but
that he didn't see anything because all of his focus was on the guy that was robbing him. And he says he really came
to again when he heard Alicia yelling for Nick through the FaceTime call. He could see and hear Alicia, but he wasn't
sure if she could see or hear him. So, holding the phone, Dave walked out to the lobby where he found Nick shot and
bleeding. He says he put the phone down to check Nick for signs of life, but got
nothing. And that's when he says he went back to his desk to get his handgun and
check for suspects in the rest of the building. And when he got back to the lobby, that's when first responders
arrived and he handed them his now bloodied gun through the crack of the door. Now, Dave says he didn't notice
anything distinguishable about the suspects who robbed him other than the fact that one's gun was quote big and
black and it made him follow the suspect's orders. >> And what's Dave's gun look like?
>> It's a 9mm Sig sour that he says he got a month ago as a result of this child
custody issue he was having with a woman who I guess he had previously had an affair with this woman. They had a
child. We tried reaching out to her. She declined to speak with us because the custody battle that he quote unquote got
this gun for was actually still ongoing >> like now like 6 years later. >> Yeah. Still in in the custody battle 6
years later. Now Dave says that he always kept his gun in that desk drawer and he has never fired it. Not even
today. But that day in the office he had chambered around while he was checking the place for suspects.
>> Okay. So you mentioned it before. or I have to bring it up. Just give it to me.
What's on the surveillance videos? Because like they should be able to tell us if his story is like lines up with
that, right? One would think because there are surveillance cameras basically all over this building. The lobby's got
one. The warehouse, even the outside, the one place that doesn't have a camera is the office space where, according to
Dave, the struggle took place. >> Why? >> I don't know. We asked Alicia, Nick's wife, and she said she had no idea. But
even she thought it was kind of odd. That's the one place that didn't have a camera. But listen, the cameras that do
exist might be able to confirm some things. Officers at the crime scene start reviewing the tapes like within
hours of being called to the scene. And they mostly do corroborate Dave's story.
Two suspects entered the building. One was holding a box of Freon, but they're actually on this footage able to see
that the box was empty. It had some kind of panel cut out of it, and they were using it to conceal the gun when they
first came in. And they see that there is some kind of commotion and yelling that can be heard off camera, presumably
in the office. And then Nick is seen running out of the office into the lobby toward the front door, and that's where
he ends up getting shot. Can you see the shooter? You can because he shoots Nick
in the lobby right in view of the cameras. Officers also note that right after the shooting, they can hear Dave
saying, "Help me." Off camera. Now, the outdoor camera then shows these two suspects like leaving, driving away from
the scene right at 5:31 p.m., and they are in a red and silver Ford F-150. It has no front license plate, of course.
And I asked like what year it was. It looks like it was like pre203, so a little bit older for the time. And
there is faded paint on the roof of it. I just don't know the exact year, but this is like an older older model. So,
based on these videos, Dave was telling the truth. >> Yeah. At this point, investigators write
in the file that after seeing the surveillance footage, they no longer suspect Dave in the homicide. However,
quote, "His involvement remains unclear." end quote. >> Meaning what? They did not elaborate. I
mean, I'm assuming they don't believe that he shot the gun, but maybe they are not eliminating the possibility that he
was involved in some other way, >> which like makes sense, right? Like why else would you lie about the money in
your pocket? Like there's just like that's weird, right? >> Yes, I have left something out. So,
there is another red flag, too. When Alicia was first told that her husband was dead, she didn't just ask, "Where's
Dave?" her full sentence to police was, "Where's Dave?" He probably had something to do with this. When she was
able to be interviewed that day on the scene, she elaborated on why that was her first thought. And when our reporter
Nicole Kagan spoke to Alicia this year, she gave us the full backstory. So everything I'm about to say comes
directly from her and from police documents. She said that a few years before all of this back in 2017, Nick's
passion was personal training, but he had been doing HVAC work for a while and decided around that time that he wanted
to be his own boss, like run his own company. So it felt like perfect timing when that year this guy named Frank who
Nick used to go riding like in the dunes with told him that he owned half of this
successful company called Gilbert Air but he was burned out and he was looking to sell his share for actually super
cheap. >> Super successful but super cheap feels like a red flag to me. >> And well there was a red flag that Frank
was pretty upfront about. He told Nick that he had a co-owner who was basically like the money guy while he ran the
business. But this co-owner, Dave Sweetman, was a quote shady posos. And so that's why Frank wanted to get out.
Shady how? He didn't really specify, but if you look up Dave's records, you'll see charges for assault, disorderly
conduct, a bunch of driving infractions, fraud, and trespassing, among other things. Now, Alicia and Nick didn't know
these specifics, but regardless, Nick was the kind of guy who loved rising to a challenge. It's something that was
like instilled in him from childhood, being raised by a single mom who had him when she was just 16. Nick's grandma and
grandpa actually helped raise him. And when his mom later had two other children with men who were not the most
present, Nick sort of took on the father figure role to raise them. So Nick chose
to see this as a golden opportunity. He got another one of his friends to buy in
too. So they would each own 25% of the company while Dave Sweetman would keep the remaining 50. But less than a week
before the deal was going to be signed, Nick's friend dropped out. Said that he just got this weird feeling.
>> A weird feeling about Dave. >> No, not what he said. Just a weird feeling that he was worried about the
business not succeeding. and he didn't think that he could make a big leap like that. It's a it's a big deal,
>> but this wasn't for Nick and he wasn't going to let this be a deal breakaker.
Remember, the guy liked a challenge, so he just decided to do it on his own. Alicia, though, she was more wary of
Dave. But Nick managed to convince her that everything was going to be okay, great, even. He was over the moon to
have something that was his. And seeing how excited he was, how could Alicia not
support him? So, the deal was done and Nick took an ownership stake in 2018 and at first everything did seem good.
Alicia said that Nick very much kept his like business and personal lives separate for 2018 and 2019. She barely
even met Dave, only ever was around him like three times. Things seemed to be going smoothly. But then about 6 months
before Nick would be killed, things started unraveling. Out of nowhere, Nick came home one night and told Alicia, "I
know it sounds crazy, but I'm telling you, I feel like someone's been watching me." Which at the time, Alicia said that
she just kind of brushed off because like it it's just sounded so absurd. And she just tried to comfort Nick, reassure
him that like everything was fine. But then Alicia tells police that 3 months after that in March of 2020, Nick told
her that Dave took $30,000 out of their company account, which he had never done
before. And when Nick asked him about it, Dave said that he had this debt that he had to pay, but he would replace it
before payroll was due. And that's when Nick told Alicia like, "I think I need to get out of this business with this
guy. I don't know what I got myself into." and he told her that he thought Dave was doing something possibly
illegal with the other companies that he owned. And like he's like, "I don't know
what's happening, but like I don't want any part of whatever it is." Now, Alicia
said Nick's stress level went through the roof at this point. But it only got worse come April when Dave not only
doesn't pay back the money that he already took, but he takes out another $15,000 from the company. Then in May,
Nick told Alicia again, "I just can't shake this feeling that somebody is watching me." And then what he said next
came out as a joke, but there is nothing funny about it now. She told police that
he was worried Dave would quote hire a hitman to take him out so Dave could collect the insurance money. End quote.
>> What insurance money? >> Alicia had the same question when Nick said that. Like what do you mean
insurance money? >> Yeah. >> And that is when Nick first told her that at some point Dave told him that to
protect the business like for each of them Dave and Nick should take out life insurance policies against each other.
>> And is that something that Dave had when the previous owner that Frank guy was
there? >> No, but not for a lack of trying. According to the police file, Dave repeatedly tried to get this Frank guy
to do the same thing, but Frank refused, telling Dave that he wanted to be worth
more alive than dead. Good advice, especially when you have a shifty business partner. Now, hearing about
this policy at the time, I mean, it really shook Alicia because she said Nick was not a worrier. He never seemed
to get stressed about anything. But after he told her that, he was just like tossing and turning in bed the whole
night. So by the time Memorial Day weekend came around, Nick was in dire need of a reset. So the Cordova family
decided that they were going to take a camping trip together. According to Alicia, when they got back on Monday
night, she and the kids begged Nick to just take the next day off so they could just like keep this family time going. I
imagine that it probably felt like this great reprieve, right? and he did, which
made Wednesday Nick's first day back in the office after that long weekend. And that is the day that he would be killed.
So, what did the office manager have to say about Dave? I mean, she's there on the scene by the time they're hearing
this from Alicia, right? >> They talk to her on the scene when she arrives, too. And Lynn is her name. And
she told police that her and Dave didn't get along. But she did say something strange. She said that like recently he
had been acting strange, like he started coming into the office more frequently and being more like friendly to her,
though he would mostly just ask about money. Lynn said that he seemed quote unquote obsessed with money and she
would hear him yelling at Nick about it. And here's the really interesting thing
that she added when she was talking to police. So the day before the shooting, that would have been Tuesday, May 26th,
this is the Tuesday after Memorial Day weekend. Now, Nick was supposed to be in the office that day, but as we know, he
makes this last minute decision to stay home with his family, >> but apparently that whole day, Dave kept
asking Lynn over and over like, "Where's Nick? When's Nick going to get in? When's he getting back?" And she just
said that Dave kept like pacing back and forth and leaving the office for like short periods of time. And she tells
police that when Dave came in to work the day of the shooting, he was quieter than usual. and he wasn't joking around
like he usually did. And at one point in the day, he and Nick closed the door to
their office and it sounded like they were having an argument. But Lynn was listening to the radio, so she couldn't
hear exactly what it was that they were saying. Now, I have to mention officers weren't just asking Lynn about Dave.
They also asked her about Alicia and Nick's relationship. And Lynn says that she wished her and her husband had a
relationship like theirs. She said that Nick was giving and kind and she didn't know a single person who didn't like
him. And this is a common theme. By the way, another employee says that everybody loved Nick and he never saw
him get angry or even like raise his voice once at work. And by the way, if it wasn't already clear what kind of guy
Nick was, Alicia said that she and at least 50 other people stayed at the crime scene that whole first night,
refusing to leave until Nick was brought out. They waited in the parking lot until the sun came up. And that whole
time, Alicia was still asking officers where Dave was and telling them that she believed he was responsible for Nick's
death. But once they reviewed the surveillance footage, they told her that he wasn't the one who killed Nick, that
he was released, and that there was nothing they could do. >> What do you mean there is nothing you
can do? I mean, no one's proven to me that he wasn't involved. Just because there are two other guys can't mean he's
cleared. I mean, they're only hours in at this point. Plus, Alicia literally told them Nick was worried about Dave
hiring a hitman. These are the exact reasons that Alicia is frustrated. She doesn't understand why nothing more can
be done and why no one seems to be giving her like an adequate explanation. So, over the course of like 12 hours or
so, she pleads with them, throwing out everything she knows about the insurance stuff and suggesting a hit for hire
until around 6:00 a.m. when Nick is finally wheeled out of the office in a body bag. Officers give Alicia his keys
and his wallet, which by the way, his wallet still has money in it, but they tell her that they have to take his
wedding ring to test for DNA. Why just his wedding ring? >> I was just going to say, we asked
Alicia. She doesn't know why. I'm assuming that they collected maybe things that they thought would be the
most likely to have like a salent DNA on it. And maybe it was clear like the wallet wasn't touched or something. I
don't really know. which would make the robbery theory even harder to buy >> 100%. So Nick is taken away and
regardless of what the police were telling Alicia about Dave and the surveillance video, I mean at that point
she's terrified. So she immediately goes to the Scottsdale police station to file
a restraining order against Dave. But since Dave hadn't actually been charged with any wrongdoing at that point, she's
told that like she doesn't really have any grounds for that. However, hearing the circumstances of her husband's death
and, you know, hearing why she's scared, detectives do tell her that actually keeping a line open with Dave might be
helpful. Maybe Dave will communicate with her, say something to her that changes things or conflicts with his
original story. And listen, this guy's instincts, whoever told her this, like they weren't far off because 3 days
later, Dave does reach out to her, not to talk about the case, but to ask if he can help with funeral arrangements. But
Alicia is in no place to try and like use this and play detective right now. Like, she can't even stomach the guy,
especially not offering to help with the funeral of her husband, who she is like
suspicious he may have had killed. So Alicia declines. And in fact, she tells Dave, "It honestly be best if you don't
attend the funeral at all." At this point, Alicia and her children are staying with her cousin and then after
that with Nick's cousins, then after that, Nick's cousins and friends like take turns sleeping on her couch with a
gun at the ready. says Alicia is still terrified of someone coming after her and her children. She doesn't know when
she'll ever feel safe again, but she definitely doesn't write in the aftermath when whoever was behind Nick's
murder is just out there. So, what are Gilbert police doing to find those men on the video footage? Well, starting on
the morning that Nick's body was removed from the building, they did begin like canvasing the neighborhood, but it seems
like the only real lead that they get is like figuring out that it was that red and silver truck. So, they spend over a
week searching not only for the truck itself, which was again, like I said, this older two-tone red and silver
extended cab Ford F-150, but they are also going to all of the surrounding businesses looking for witnesses or
additional surveillance cameras that may have captured the people or the truck. And they actually did end up hitting pay
dirt at the AM PM about 2 minutes down the road from the office. Not only does the convenience store have surveillance
footage of the truck in question, they also have surveillance footage of one of the men who was inside of it.
On June 12th, just over two weeks after the shooting, Gilbert PD releases the footage from the AMM to the public to
see if anyone can identify the mystery man who they say was in the passenger seat of this vehicle that they're
looking for in connection to this case. >> Wait, when is the footage from? >> So, the footage that they get is from
the day of the shooting. Actually, just literal minutes after the shooting based
on the timestamps. And listen, I got to say this is close to, if not the clearest image of a suspect's face I
have ever seen from surveillance footage in a case. Like anyone who knows this guy would be able to recognize him
instantaneously, which makes it so wild to me that they're not putting it out to
the public until June 12th. But in the footage, here is what we see. So, this truck in question pulls up to a pump at
the gas station literally 2 minutes after the shooting. Then there is a guy who police describe as about 5 foot
eight with a heavy set build wearing a dark-coled t-shirt, blue jeans, and dark-colored boots that gets out of the
truck and walks through the gas station parking lot up to the door of the amm and then enters the store at 5:33 p.m.
He goes to the counter where we get this direct shot of his face from a camera that must be like over the counter
somewhere. Now, he talks briefly with the clerk and then he goes out, fills his tank before the truck pulls out at
5:36, and all we know is that it drives northbound. >> I mean, do we know what he said to the
clerk? >> Nothing important. Um, the they talked to the clerk and they said that this guy
was like a non-con conversationalist, just like, you know, 10 bucks on Pump 7 kind of guy. And he of course paid cash
and they're like, "Listen, I probably at this point couldn't even pick the guy out of a lineup." So, is this a third
guy or did the shooters change clothes because they weren't wearing those like bright green shirts in the video from
the business? >> No, you're right. They don't think, at least from what I can tell, they don't
think this is a third man. They think whoever this is took off the mask and either removed the bright green shirt or
like switched outfits or whatever, but this is the guy that they're looking for or one of them. Now, Alicia, Lynn, and
other employees at Gilbert Air all are shown this gas station footage, but no one recognizes this guy,
>> not even Dave. >> He tells Alicia that he didn't know him either. If tips come in from the public
about who this man is, Alicia is never told about it, and I can't tell you about it because that info about the
surveillance footage, that is the last piece of information that comes validated from the police file.
Everything else in the file is redacted. Like we're talking over 200 pages of just blacked out everything. I mean, did
they give Alicia any updates? Well, early on in the investigation, Alicia said that there was one Gilbert like PD
detective who she met with every couple of weeks who seemed really invested in the case. He gave her a full case update
around the one-year mark through this like PowerPoint presentation. and she felt hopeful like maybe the wait would
be worth it and all of the months of waiting and fear were going to like lead to something because this guy promises
her that arrests are going to be made. But then in a story that has become all too familiar 2 weeks after that meeting,
she basically gets a call notifying her that that guy's off the case. The new detective says that the original guy got
moved down to patrol. And when she asked if like that happened willingly, the new
detective was basically like, "Yeah, you know, like sometimes being a detective can just take a toll on people." And
it's not uncommon for people to have to take a break. But Alicia has always suspected that the demotion was because
maybe that first guy, that that one detective who showed her the PowerPoint, maybe that guy told her too much or
worse, maybe he screwed something up with Nick's case. Now, we did reach out to Gilbert PD for comment, and they said
that they are still actively investigating, but cannot disclose further information at this time.
>> So, wait, did did they look into Dave Moore and like all all the insurance stuff? Like, did he get a payout when
Nick died? >> So, as far as I can tell from the file, police did a follow-up interview with
Dave Sweetman and even his girlfriend Susan, and that was in August of 2020. I have no idea what came of that. As for
the insurance stuff, that would go on for years. It started though just 5 days after the shooting. That is when Dave
texted Alicia this string of messages about signing some documents for the claim. And Alicia, who lost her husband
5 days ago in in front of Dave, by the way. >> Yeah. Who is worried that he was killed
for insurance money was like, "No, maybe like not now. >> How about you let me bury my husband
first and then I'll figure all of this out?" But Dave comes back to her and he's like, "Okay, but like just so you
know, you should be getting around like $500,000." Now, Alicia, she didn't know anything
about these policies, but in her mind, she's thinking like, okay, like the policy pays out to the business. Nick
owned half of the business, so it must have been a million-doll policy, right? Split 50/50. Makes sense.
>> But just to confirm, she decided to go checking through Nick's emails. And that's when she found out that there was
another policy. And both policies together would pay out not $1 million but $8 million.
What? So Alicia refuses to sign the documents which according to her does not sit well with Dave. He goes off on
her about how she's like making this so difficult and that it's really Nick's fault for not having mapped everything
out for her. And that's when Alicia had had enough. She gets a lawyer of her own
and decides to push back. Now, they find an agreement that Nick signed when he bought into the business which stated
that in the event of a death, everything would be split 50/50. So, like 6 months
after the shooting, Alicia's lawyer is like, "Okay, listen. Now that we have this, you can sign the documents and
then we can file this claim." Done and done. Right? >> Wrong. As soon as they file, they get a
call from the insurance company that's confused because they say, quote, "We already got your signed documents."
What do you mean they already got her signed documents? >> Alicia has no idea what they're talking
about. She's like, "This is the first time I've ever signed anything. If you have signed documents, somebody forged
my signature." And the company's first question is, "Well, do you know of anybody that would want to do that?" I
mean, I have some thoughts. >> Alicia can think of only one person, Dave. Not so sweetman, which is what she
has taken to calling him by that point. >> So, what does this mean for Alicia? Can
she can she still get her half of the money? >> Well, so what what ends up happening is
she files a police report claiming that Dave forged her signature, but weeks later, she's told that there's not
enough evidence to charge him. And even though she has that document stating that she's meant to get half of the
insurance payouts, there are loads of other documents with stipulations that her lawyers and Dave's lawyers like just
cannot seem to get on the same page about. So after three more years of legal back and forth in 2024, Alicia and
Dave finally get everything settled out of court and each receives an undisclosed payout. So,
while all of that was going on, was Gilbert Air still like in business and operating? No,
>> Gilbert Air ran out of money like 9 months after Nick's death and they had to end up closing even though there was
supposedly an $8 million payout to the business when Nick died. >> Yeah. I don't know what Dave did with
the money that he got or like if it got tied up at some point, but for some reason, it doesn't seem like it was used
to keep that business operational. the one that Nick and now his family owned half of
>> instead. Alicia says that, you know, when after Gilbert Air closes down, Dave
took the client list and started a new business called Arizona Family Air that the Cordovas have no stake in and he
continues to run it out of his house. >> Continues like like to this day >> to this very day. We called the company
for comment, but as of this recording, we have not heard back. Dave and his girlfriend Susan didn't respond to us
either, though Dave did tell Fox 10 Phoenix back in 2024 that Nick's case was quote the most traumatic ordeal he's
experienced. End quote. Over the years, Nick's case starts cycling through different detectives. Alicia continues
trying to meet with whoever is on the case every few months, but it's just so hard for her to believe them when she
keeps hearing the same thing. We're rechecking things. We're relooking through evidence, but each time nothing
happens. To this day, she's still never been given a copy of his autopsy, and we
couldn't obtain it through public records requests either. Authorities have also never released any kind of
results related to firearms or firearm testing. Like, I don't know what kind of gun was used in the shooting still. And
I don't know if they ever confirmed Dave's story that the gun he handed over to them had never been fired. I was
going to say if they haven't released what kind of gun was used on Nick, they don't know that what like we don't know
that >> right. According to the police file, I know they got some lab results back in
July of 2020. Now, what items were tested and where can't tell you that is all redacted and they have never shared
that information with Alicia. The only unredacted part says that the only DNA profiles on the physical evidence
collected belongs to either Nick or Dave. But the thing to remember is without context that could mean nothing.
They both worked in that office. So if items were tested that are like regularly used by both of them, like
that doesn't mean anything. Like Yeah. And even without someone else's DNA, like I keep thinking about the guy on
the surveillance footage. Like how have they not identified him? >> I know. I know. Alicia cannot help but
wonder. The only thing she can think of, I should say, is like every she thinks like every time this case is handed to
someone else, maybe things are like slipping through the cracks. >> It's a game of telephone.
>> Yeah. And like she told us that there have been specific case details that she's mentioned while like speaking with
detectives and they've been like, "Oh, we didn't know that." Which is like not the thing you want to hear from the guy
in charge of solving your husband's case. And listen, people all over the internet have been quick to call out
Gilbert Pey for all sorts of things, alleging corruption and dirty police work. Just look up the Gilbert Goons
case if you want to get an idea. There is no proof of anything like that that we know of, but I can say that the
department is extremely protective of their public records. And this is not the first case of theirs that we've even
covered. I mean, you know, a couple of months ago, we released an episode on the 2022 shooting of Rachel Hansen, and
her family expressed the same frustrations that Alicia has with Gilbert PD. And what's more, in February
of 2026, this article came out in the Arizona Republic by Marissa Dominguez saying that the Arizona Attorney
General's office is reviewing claims that the town of Gilbert may have illegally destroyed or withheld police
records, which is an allegation that could have huge implications for unresolved cases in the community like
NYX. >> Yeah. Now, as of this recording, the attorney general's review has not confirmed any illegal destruction tied
specifically to any of these cases, and Gilbert PD has denied all allegations of
destroying or withholding records. But trust that we will be following this very closely. But this experience that
she and others have had with Gilbert PD is one of the many reasons that Alicia began asking the department if she could
see the surveillance footage from Gilbert Air herself. They say no to her a couple of times, but Alicia was not
playing around. She put in a formal records request, hired a lawyer, and in an absolutely shocking turn of events,
the PD actually agreed to let her see it. So, in March of 2025, she went into the station with Nick's mom, and
together they sit down and watch this video. And Alicia notices a number of things on the footage police have that
were not included in the report. She told us that right before the shooting when Dave was getting ready to leave the
office, he went to the front door and like peeked through the blinds and you can see the red and silver truck pulling
up on the outdoor camera as he does this and then he walks back into the office and Alicia is literally like in the
police department. I mean, can you imagine? She's like viewing this footage and she's like, "Guys, pause the tape."
That's what she says. And she's like, "Isn't that enough right there? Why would he be peeking through the blinds
unless he was like expecting somebody?" >> Yeah. And his story is that he went back
into the office because he forgot something, right? >> That's what he told police, which like
whatever. Maybe. But like, tell me, how many times have you like peaked out of the blinds before you leave the office
at night? >> Only if I was waiting for someone. >> Yeah. And as Alicia continues watching,
she sees the two men arrive in their bright colored shirts, masks, and she sees that they have gloves on,
>> which explains the lack of suspect DNA at the scene. >> Yes. And she says that they're wearing
these like big construction hats, too. Now, she says one guy is tall and slender. The other is like chubbier.
>> I'm assuming that's the one that's caught on the tape. >> That's my guess. Yeah. And then of
course everything happening in the office we know is off camera. But guess what she says? There's audio. Alicia
says that she can hear Nick on the phone with her kids. And then all of a sudden
you can hear a commotion and Nick just yelling for help. >> And what about Dave?
>> She says she doesn't hear Dave saying anything. And then all of a sudden like
Nick comes into view. He's like running through the lobby. And she says that he was really close to the door when the
suspect comes up behind him and just execution style shoots him once in the back of the head causing him to fall to
the ground and that was it. I can't believe she had to watch that. I can't believe they let her watch that because
like to her I mean not only is it like traumatic but like it just confirms everything that she's been feeling.
>> That's what I'm saying. This just makes her more suspicious of Dave, who to this
day still has not been charged or even named publicly as a person of interest or a suspect in this case. But how? I
mean, from the jump, the PD ruled him out as the shooter from the surveillance footage. And according to Alicia, they
never had been able to find a paper trail between him and the two suspects. Okay, but what's the cash situation,
though? Like, where did the $45,000 go that he took out from the company before all this happened? Like, can we trace
where that went or where every penny of the insurance payout went? Like, you're not writing checks to hit men. Right.
>> Right. This is like I would be looking for missing money. >> Also, I don't understand how they can
say that. Like, oh, like we can't find a paper trail between the two suspects when supposedly you don't know who the
two suspects are. Like, >> right, >> the paper trail could lead you to them. Like,
>> yeah. To me, in order to rule out a connection definitively, you would have to dig deep into this man, right? do a
financial audit almost. >> There are forensic accountants for a reason. >> Not like you have to do more than one
follow-up interview, which is like I see a follow-up interview. Again, lots of redacted stuff in the file and I don't
know what are in those pages. There are over 200 of them, remember? But even 200
pages, it doesn't feel like enough if they were to have investigated Dave or even his like past financial crimes. I
forgot about those. like he had a a history of like scammy [ __ ] like fraud and stuff like yes please dig into
those. >> Yes, someone's past can tell you a lot about them which is why we felt it
necessary to look into Dave's past to tell this story. >> Always go a layer deeper.
>> And listen, what our reporter Nicole found us headirst down a rabbit hole that we could have never seen coming.
You see, it turns out nearly seven years before Nick was shot, someone else close
to Dave died under mysterious circumstances. Now, this wasn't mentioned in the police report or online
news coverage of Nick's case at all. In fact, there is no media coverage of this
other case at all. And that other case is the death of Laura Sweetman, Dave's wife.
What? What we found needs an entire episode of its own. So, crime junkies, come back next Monday to hear Laura
Sweetman's story. Or you can listen to it right now if you're in the fan club. And if you're not a member of the Crime
Junkie fan club, now is the perfect time because now through April 14th, you can
join the Crime Junkie fan club for free. So, check out the link in our show notes
to get your first month on us. Listen, make no mistake. Alicia isn't going away. She feels like it's up to her to
keep Nick's story alive. And she does every press interview she can. She posts on TikTok. She continues meeting with
the police department. And she'll keep it all going until the people who killed Nick are finally behind bars. So, if you
have any information about the 2020 death of Nicholas Nick Cordova in Gilbert, Arizona, you can reach out to
the Gilbert Police Department at 4805036500. Or if you prefer to remain anonymous,
you can reach out to Silent Witness at 48-948-6377. The posted reward for information is now
up to $20,000. And as always, you can reach out to us by emailing tips@auchuk.com.
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkkey.com. And you can follow us
on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with Laura Sweetman's story, but don't forget you
can listen right now by joining the Crime Junkie fan club. Links in the show notes.

This Fourth of July, we’re revisiting four unforgettable Crime Junkie cases that prove real change doesn’t happen on its own, it happens because ordinary people refuse to stop fighting. From families demanding answers to advocates exposing investigative failures and pushing for accountability, these stories remind us that justice is often driven by the people who refuse to let a victim’s name be forgotten. In this compilation, Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat revisit:

Amber Spradlin: A 38-year-old woman was found murdered inside a home in Martin, Kentucky, in June 2023. As her family searched for answers, they uncovered troubling questions about the investigation, missing evidence, and a community determined to keep her story alive.

Sandra Birchmore :After 23-year-old Sandra Birchmore was found dead in her apartment in Canton, Massachusetts, in February 2021, her death was initially ruled self-inflicted. Years later, new evidence, a federal investigation, and determined advocates dramatically changed the direction of the case.

Rachel Hansen: In June 2022, 19-year-old Rachel Hansen was shot inside her apartment in Gilbert, Arizona. Her family has spent years pressing for answers, challenging the investigation, and refusing to let her case fade from public attention.

Nick Cordova: On May 27, 2020, 40-year-old Nick Cordova was killed inside his HVAC business in Gilbert, Arizona, while his children were on FaceTime with him. As his wife Alysha pursued the truth, she uncovered financial motives, unanswered questions, and a fight for justice that continues today.

These cases span different states, different circumstances, and different investigations, but they all share one thing in common: people who refused to accept that the story was over. Because every time someone speaks up, every time a family keeps asking questions, every time a community demands accountability...Justice moves one step closer. -------- Follow Crime Junkie: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crimejunkiepodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CrimeJunkiePodcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CrimeJunkiePod Crime Junkie is created and hosted by Ashley Flowers.

About Ashley Flowers Ashley Flowers is the top female podcaster in the U.S. and the host of Crime Junkie, the #1 podcast among women and the #1 true crime podcast globally. As the Founder of Audiochuck, she has built a top-tier podcast production company that has garnered over 2.6 billion downloads, captivating audiences with its gripping storytelling through 10+ chart topping podcasts. Ashley and her team are dedicated to creating responsible true crime content that respects victims and their families.

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Brief Summary

Amber Sprdlin was murdered in 2023; her case reveals police failures and community demands for justice.

Key points

Conflicting Reports. Confusion arises as police claim Amber's death was an accident, contradicting initial reports.
Missing Evidence. Surveillance footage from the night of Amber's murder is mysteriously gone.
Charges Filed. MK is charged with Amber's murder, while others face evidence tampering charges.
Sandra's Struggles. Sandra faced immense personal challenges, losing her mother and grandmother in quick succession.
The Affair's Fallout. Matthew's affair with Sandra becomes public, leading to tension and threats.
FBI Investigation Unveiled. The FBI's findings reveal a complex web of relationships and potential motives surrounding Sandra's death.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I'm not saying arrest him.

MK's vague response to the dispatcher about Roy's behavior.

20:22WatchJul 1, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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