Herbert Mullin: The Killer Hippie (Part 2) | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena. I'm Ash. And this is [Music] Morbid. Hey, smorbid. It sounded like
you said smorbid smorbid smorbid [ __ ] You can have s'more of morbid. [Laughter]
Funny. We've just been roasting each other all day. I love the I was like, "You're so funny." We
have been roasting each other all day. All week, really. And it's not just me roasting Ash. Ash is roasting me back.
Guys, don't worry. Somebody come get her. She being mean. So, she being mean. Nothing has happened
since the last time we recorded because the last time we recorded yesterday was yesterday. We um Yeah, I'm trying to
think. Did it literally anything happened? What can we talk about, guys? What do you guys want to talk about?
Raise your hand if you have something for the class. Uh we're coming up on our 666th episode and it's going to be a
listener tales episode. Yes. which means we're going to dress up. And boy, do we
have something. So, that's exciting. I ordered all the uh months of my costume today. That's fun. Me, too. And we got
some good news yesterday for for the near future. Oh, yeah. Some some good good things.
Not me being like, "What?" You're like, "What's she talking about?" I said, "What did we learn yesterday?" We
learned some wonderful things. So, that there's, you know, I'm looking forward to that. Mhm. Oh, we watched um a very
interesting movie on Scream. This is just a random thing to tell you guys because in case you haven't listened to
Scream, what are you doing over here? Ash picked it. So good. And I think it's worth throwing it over here in case you
in case you haven't been listening to Scream, you should. It's fun. Go listen to Scream. It's fun as hell. What are
you doing? Caleb's a goddamn hoot. So, let's A hoot and a half even. He's a hoot and a half. A hoot and a half. And
you know, we take suggestions for movies and we also pick our own. It's a lot of
fun over there. We don't take it too seriously and neither will you. Nobody will, but it's really fun. So, go
listen. But if you haven't yet and you're like, "What are you talking about?" Ash, her pick for the movie um
last week was a movie called Hellbender. It was so fun. It is such a cool movie.
I'm looking up the girl on Tik Tok who recommended it originally. It's Kate. It is Kate. Feral Pisces.
Wow. Listen to you. just remembering the Tik Tok name cuz I too follow Kate on Tik Tok and we love a Feral Pisces. So,
um that's her Tik Tok handle is Feral Pisces. She's great. Follow Yeah, cuz I was watching Yellow Jackets and then I
follow Kate anyways. Yeah, just our friend Kate. Just our friend. Hey, anybody I follow on TikTok I'm like
we're friends. Um and she recommended it. She was like it's very like similar vibes and it is. It's like like sort of
similar. It's like got like folky horror vibes. That's the thing. I think it's got like the DNA of like that kind of
vibe, you know, like it's it's a very unique story. Uhhuh. Uh the people who make it are like a family, so they have
like a really unique story and um I think they're like the Adams family, literally. Their last name is Adams. And
uh they're really good at what they do. I think they do a great job and I think they tell stories really differently and
it's fun. There's another movie that um that they did. I can't remember. Where the devil roams, I think. Yeah, I think
it is Where the Devil Ro that we're going to cover next week on screen. I'm excited for that. Yeah, I'm very excited
about it. So, again, this is literally just us being like, "Hey, this is a cool thing that we thought we would pass on
to you." So, if you're looking for like an interesting, really spooky, really cool movie, like something you've never
seen before. Yeah. That's just going to make you go, "Huh, what the fuck?" afterwards, but like in the best way.
Hellbender really beautiful in like a weird way. Beautifully shot. Beautifully shot and like weirdly a beautiful story.
It is. Yeah. Like not but but yes. But yes at the end. So give it a shot. I just thought that was like a fun little
little thing you guys. You know, we're always trying to tell cool stuff. I want to watch that movie again. I do too. It
was great. But unfortunately we have to talk about this [ __ ] Stain. I know. But
at least like I feel he gets apprehended in this part. Yeah. He's not going to he
doesn't win in the end. So, there's that. I did look up like a couple things cuz I just needed to know for my own
psyche last night. Well, you always have to see what they look like, too. Yes, that was a trip. That is a trip if you
look him up. He looks very normal when he's younger. Like younger. Yeah. You can see why people got into his car or
lended him a hand, but he came off almost cleancut. No, lit. Yeah, he did. You know, like he he very much was. It's
actually interesting that they called him the hippie killer cuz he doesn't look like a hippie. So, he's called the
hippie killer. I think not because he's the hippie in this scenario for killing hippies. He was also he while he had
some hippie ideals, he also had disdain for hippies. Oh, okay. So, I think this is like a double-edged sword here.
Interesting that he had disdain for hippies. Yeah, cuz like everything that you've described about his personality
so far, like as far as, you know, like new age thinking and psychedelics, pretty hippiecoded. Yeah. He was very uh
confused. I Yes, I would say. And what we'll see with Herbert Mullen, too, is he is mentally ill, obviously, but he is
not insane. He knows what he's doing. Yeah. And he knows what he's doing. And we will see.
Yeah. We will see instances where he covers up things or make sure he takes bullet casings or he's very he's he does
not have diminished capacity in the sense that he doesn't know what he's doing is wrong. Yeah. So that you can
you can hold on to that as like, [ __ ] this guy. Yeah. Um, but the last we talked about him, he had, you know, he
had killed Mary Gilfoil, he had killed Lawrence White. Um, he had killed a literal priest in a confessional. Yep.
And he is now wondering whether he is doing things correctly. That's quite a time to ponder that. It's he's wondering
if he's, you know, if this is the mission he's supposed to be taking. And so he starts think and he's also
thinking like, okay, I don't think I'm stopping an impending disaster from happening. So when we last left you, I
said that he was also the voices in his head that he was that he said were in there included his father's voice at
this point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he was now considering whether he could find a
more morally righteous way to continue this mission of his. Well, you've already killed three people, so it's a
little too like there's no like turn back now. Well, and also like the mission is to sacrifice, so there's
really no moral morally righteous way to do that. No. What he what he was thinking in January 1973 was that he
could join the military. Oh. So he tried to convince his father to allow him to join the military and he submitted an
application to the US Marine Corps. Okay. In Martin Mullen's mind, which is his father, the Marines would give his
son some stability, some direction, help him grow out of whatever phase he was in. You know, it's not a phase dad. It's
not a phase dad. But from Herbert Mullen's perspective, the military is kind of ideal for him because he could
one make his father proud of him finally. Mhm. And he could also continue his what he saw as his important work,
saving the world because he would be in an environment where killing wasn't just
permissible, it was kind of expected. Yeah. So he figured that was like the way to make this better. Okay. Now,
having talked to so many doctors in the previous 5 years or so, he had become really good, and I mentioned this in
part one, at like anticipating what people wanted to hear, you know? So, like he could he knew how to work the
system. He knew how to get out of stuff. So, the initial paperwork and interview
phase flew right by. Like, he killed it. Damn. But when it came to the criminal record and drug history part of it, he
couldn't talk his way out of that one. Yeah. Can't talk your way out of your own past. No. Uh his criminal record
showed several interactions with law enforcement, many of which ended with hospitalization. And he was still
actively using drugs, which was going to show up on drug tests. It usually does.
So, in just a matter of weeks, his plan to turn his whole life around and manage
his responsibilities, it all fell apart. Uh but although there was really only one person to blame for not being
accepted into the military, he obviously wasn't going to blame himself. He wasn't
going to accept his responsibility in this. Uh so this just became yet another paranoid delusion that the world was
against him. You know, it wasn't his behavior that had caused him to be rejected. It was society's conspiracy to
prevent him from the greatness that he was destined for. Totally. So he wasn't just disappointed with this. He was
pissed. That's not great. Now, in Herbert Mullen's mind, it wasn't just the universe that was conspiring against
him, but it was the drugs. The drugs were conspiring against him. Well, they had clouded his mind for
years. And he blamed marijuana worst of all, which is wild work. That That's truly wild. Out of all the ones he's
doing to blame the pot. I'm like, "Bro, you were doing LSD." Yeah. And even still, like that probably [ __ ] you up,
but it wasn't totally all of the drugs fault. No. In his like wildly warped logic, he reasoned that smoking pot was
what led him to make his bad choices. Okay. Okay. Yeah, it was it was the pot that was responsible for his bad
relationship with his parents and most importantly it was what led to so many hospitalizations. It was totally that
just the pot just that. Okay. So, but again like his rejection from the military, he couldn't take
responsibility for his drug use over the years. It wasn't him who had decided to
do this. Instead, he was like, I'm going to place the blame on the person who started me down this road in the first
place. yourself. So, a little before 9:00 a.m. on the morning of January 25th, Kathy
Francis was just barely awake, just starting her day when she heard not a knocking on her door, but like a
tapping. Oh, I hate that. A very light tapping. And she wasn't expecting anyone. It was the morning, so she was
like, "Excuse me, what?" So, that's [ __ ] sinister. She was not happy. So, she opened the door and she found a
slightly disheveled Herbert Mullen standing in front of her. She kind of knew him. like she barely knew him, but
she just kind of recognized him by sight essentially. So, she tried to be a little polite because like she was kind
of like, "I think I know you." Yeah. He had actually come looking for Jim Giana who was the former occupant of
this house and the guy who had first given Herbert Mullen his first joint back in high school.
Okay. Yeah. Wow. Yep. How old is he at this point? like in his like early 20s. Yeah, early 20s. I couldn't [ __ ] tell
you. Like mid 20s, I would say. I have no idea who gave me my first joint. And also, it's not that guy's fault. It's
not that you took the joint. You smoked it. And that's not even the [ __ ] problem. It's not even the issue. Well,
Kathy explained that Jim hadn't lived in the house for a few months and then gave
him directions to Jim's new house cuz he thought he was a friend. Yeah, of course. She didn't do anything wrong.
Kathy knew who he was like a little bit. So, not like a complete stranger. Yeah.
And like she was like, "Oh, you're looking for your friend." He kind of made it seem like I'm looking for a
friend. So like, "Okay." And she was like, "Oh, it's like a few blocks away. He lives in a different house." And then
just closed the door and went back to bed. Now Herbert Mullen got back in his car and drove the seven miles to Jim and
Joan Gianara's house on Western Drive. Jim and Joan Giana. I'm obsessed. Yeah. This couple had bought the house
sometime earlier and had finally finished renovations and were able to move in a few months earlier.
Unfortunately, since then, Jim had struggled to find work and they'd run out of money. Oh, no. So, that January,
they'd been living without electricity. Oh, man. Yeah. Now, like Kathy Francis, Jim hadn't been expecting anyone that
morning. So, the knock on the door was a little bit of a surprise. Um, it had been a while since the two of them had
seen each other. They went to high school together and but Jim recognized Herbert Mullen immediately, but didn't
invite him inside. And out of nowhere, Herbert just said, "I'm really pissed about the time I've been wasting." Okay.
And Jim was like, "Sorry to hear that. Sorry. Sorry about that." Like I Okay. Like he was just confused. Like what?
And before Jim could say anything back to him, cuz what the [ __ ] else? What was
he going to say? The phone rang. And so he's like, "Excuse me, I just have to answer the phone really quick." Yeah.
And he went in to answer the phone. And Herbert locked in the door and closed it
behind him. Now, Jem hung up the phone and turned around and was like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing in my house? I
didn't invite you in." Yeah, you can't just walk in here, dude. And he was about to yell at him to leave. And then
he noticed the revolver in Herbert Mullen's hand, and he turned to run. And from behind, Jim heard a crack and a
bullet grazed his right arm. Oh man. He made it to the kitchen, and he flung the
refrigerator door open, hoping to shield himself, but another bullet struck him in the left elbow, shattering the bone.
Oh [ __ ] Yeah. So, he grasped at the counter for a knife or anything he could use to defend himself, but he could
didn't find anything. And instead, he just charged at Herb, who simply sidestepped and then turned and shot Jim
again, this time hitting him in the back. Oh. And the bullet this time tore through his lung and sent him crashing
into the stairs. Oh my god. So Jim struggles and gets himself up. Now his lung has been like shot. Like a bullet
went through his lung. He gets himself up the stairs in order to warn his wife. Oh. He heard the crack of the gun again
as he's trying to get up the stairs and the bullet struck the door jam above the
door and like exploded the wood. Now Joan had been showering when Herb arrived and the noise of the water
blocked out all the chaos downstairs. She didn't hear a lot of it. So when she opened the door and stepped into the
hallway in a towel, she was shocked to see her husband now stumbling towards her. Blood was pouring from his left
side and streaming out of his mouth. Oh my god. He managed to shove Joan back into the bathroom and slammed the door
and yelled at her to lock the door as he's bleeding to death. Yeah. And he like shoved his wife into the bathroom
to like protect her. Oh my god. And from inside the bathroom, Joan heard the gun
fire two more times. One bullet hit Jim in the stomach and the second went through his back and struck his heart
and killed him. Oh my god. And she's just standing in the bathroom having no idea what the [ __ ] is going on. No idea
who this man is now from inside the bathroom. So Herb could hear Joan hysterically sobbing from inside the
bathroom. Oh my god. And so he just broke down the door with his hands and feet. Just kicked open the door. Oh,
this is like a nightmare. Yeah. Once inside, he aimed the gun at Joan and fired three times quickly, hitting her
twice in the neck and once in the face just above her left eye. Oh my god. He was never fully confident that a gun was
sufficient for the purpose of sacrifice. So he decided to take out his hunting knife that he had with him, too, and
stabbed Joan in the back three times. Once for each bullet. But didn't do that to the husband. No.
What? He then collected the shell cases from the bathroom floor. Yep. And from the hallway and then proceeded
downstairs to collect the rest of them. And he stuck the gun back into his waistband and then he noticed that a
button from his coat was missing. But he was like, "Ah, whatever." And he just left the house. Good. Now, back at the
Francis house, remember Kathy, who originally opened the door? I would like to give a quick trigger warning. Uh,
this part is very upsetting. Oh, no. Um, back at the Francis house, her two children had woken up and Kathy was
doing her best to get 9-year-old David and fouryear-old Damon ready for the day. Yeah. 9-year-old Damon had had a
cold the last few days and he looked like he was going to be staying home from school one more day. So, she went
out into the yard and found some kindling to get the fire started in the stove. She had just put down some
breakfast for the boys when she heard a knock at the front door. Oh. When she opened it, she was looking down the
barrel of Herbert Mullen's gun. Oh my god. Kathy didn't even have time to say a word before Herb fired the gun and hit
her straight in the head. Killed her immediately. He stepped over her and he entered and closed the door behind him
and he thought he was going to find a husband or a boyfriend in the house and he realized that he heard voices but
they were children's voices. So, um, just to just to be clear, remember before he was saying that he was
considering like how morally wrong this felt and he wanted to find a morally righteous way of doing this. Um, I don't
know what happened here. He didn't stop to think about, you know, the moral implications of killing children here
because he simply raised the gun and fired twice and hit both of them in the head, killing them instantly. Oh my god.
Then he walked around and stabbed each of them with the hunting knife to make sure that he had properly sacrificed
them. And he also has like no matter what this is so [ __ ] but he has no idea who this even is. No. So that's not
It's still not fitting the the narrative that he's trying to No. Like create. Yeah. What? Mhm. A 9-year-old and a
four-year-old. A four-year-old and their mother. A nineyear-old. Oh my god. Yeah. Now, unlike the three previous
victims who had yet to be linked, investigators immediately suspected the Gianireas and the Francises had been
killed by the same person because there was a personal connection between the victims and similar circumstances under
which they had been killed. Yeah. The scenes of both murders were remarkably sparse when it came to evidence. And in
at least one of them, the Francis House, there looked like there was no struggle
because there wasn't. He had just shot her in the face and then killed her two small children, right? They did however
note that the person connecting the families, Robert Francis, was unaccounted for and hadn't been seen in
at least two days. Okay. In a press release the following day, Sheriff Doug James stated, "There appear to be drug
overtones in the case. And when they did finally locate Robert Francis, he was ruled out immediately as a suspect."
Yeah. Now, not wanting to cause panic, Santa Cruz police captain Dick Overton urged residents to quote unquote keep
cool. Stay cool, man. Babe, just stay cool. Don't be all like uncool, babe. And they
and he said, "Just go about your daily lives as normal." Cool. Two families have been slaughtered, but like, yeah,
keep it chill, man. And also, he said, "This is not a case of somebody running a muck and shooting people." That's
actually exactly what this is. This thing has a pattern to it. It's not a case of some crazy man running around
shooting people. No, it's that's literally exactly what it is, sir. And what basis do you have to tell
otherwise? So, since the murders of the OT family two years earlier, we talked about them in uh part one. Yeah. And the
recent disappearances of a local a number of local college girls keer Santa Cruz residents had
started arming themselves. I would which Overton knew increased the potential for
an accidental shooting to happen. But while his desire to avoid, you know, like panicking the public and having
some accidents happen that could have some real con consequences, he was very wrong because this was one of the rare
incidences of someone quote running a muck and shooting people at random. This literally was. Now, the more time that
passed, the more kind of like adept Herbert got at justifying his murders. He was able to convince himself that
which shows you also that he was doing some real Yeah. uh mental gymnastics here to make it and investigator shot
and killed two kids. There's What are you doing? Exactly. An investigator's abil inability to connect the crimes
only served as further evidence of his divine purpose in his mind. He's not getting caught. Exactly. By February, he
had stopped taking drugs altogether and replaced his drug use with long hikes in
the mountains around Santa Cruz, which my goodness, I wish you had done that your whole life. Yeah, just
literally take a hike. Yeah, take a hike. Now, on the morning of February 10th, he went out for a hike in Henry
Cowell State Park, just off Highway 9, not far from where Lawrence White's body was discovered. And these hikes, he
said, gave him time away from his parents, you know, gave him peace, gave him a little quiet, made his head feel
clear. Why the [ __ ] weren't you doing this forever? So that he loved these. Like this was his moment of like peace.
Yeah. So he was very irritated when he came across four teenagers camping in the woods that morning. Oh, how dare
they? Yeah. How dare they do a thing they're allowed to do in nature? Like what? Yeah. The teens, 18-year-old David
Oler, 18year-old Robert Spectre, 19year-old Brian Scott Card, and 15year-old Mark Drabelis, I believe is
how you say it, had come to the area a few days earlier, and they'd been living at like um like they had made themselves
like a little lean, too. Oh, okay. And when he came upon them that morning, he was absolutely disgusted because he saw
a bunch of trash around the large tent and he intended to speak to them about it. So his initial thought was not to
immediately kill them. Yeah. Which is also interesting. Or so he says, right? And well, he doesn't initially. Like
that's this isn't the first thing he does. Okay. So he stands outside the tent and he coughs loudly to get their
attention. And so they all made their way out of the tent and he tells them, "You're on public property and it's
illegal to camp here and you're polluting the woods with your garbage. Okay, pick it up." So they are teenage
boys. So they mocked him, uh, which only made Herb angrier with them. So he told
them he was a park ranger and he was giving them until the next day to clear out the area or they'd be arrested.
Okay. Which is so weird. Yeah, that is weird. You know, so he left the area and he continues his hike, but he just
couldn't get this interaction out of his mind. This is where the the like the illness comes into play, I feel. Yeah,
this is just me like speculating of course from afar. Um because it feels like he had like a moment of clarity of
just being like a cremagin there and just being like where like you you dumb kids what are you doing? And he was
leaving and then as he's leaving it's like the every it clouded again and it's like like that rain cloud set upon his
brain and was like no no no like you need to be irrational here and be so it's very interesting to see how this
all played out. Yeah. It's like he it's like an urge that he just can't fight against. It's very strange. So, he can't
stop thinking about it, you know, and in his head here he is doing everything he
can to protect the world from this impending natural disaster and these teens are just throwing garbage all over
the place and then mocking him when he shares his concerns about the environment. What the [ __ ] Yeah. Under
a normal circumstance, you would be like, "Yeah, that does suck." Mhm. a regular Joe, you know, you just what a
shitty day. Yeah. You like, man, like, but him, you're like, [ __ ] you, dude. Yep. Um, so at first it occurred to Herb
that he could just go back to the campsite and kill them all. And then he was like, you know what? I can't do that
because this would be a personal grievance and not keeping with my mission. Wasn't the last murder a
personal grievance? Thank you. You're welcome. Because Jim was the first person to give him a
joint, which he considered the beginning of all this, which is that's a personal
grievance by definition. Like that's not part of your mission. Maybe he was feeling some type of way about that.
Yeah. I think he's just um scattered a lying sack of [ __ ] And I think that he by his own admission he knows how to
convince people of certain things. knows how to convince people that he's okay to
be let out of a hospital. Well, remember knows how to convince people to let him
in the military. He was really smart. He's very smart. He excelled in school. One of the top students, great athletes,
very manipulative. He admitted it himself. That's how he got out of the hospital like hospitalizations every
time. Multiple. Yeah. So, this to me feels like him later being like, "Oh, well, this is why I didn't do it." to
make it seem like I'm still under that fog of like I have a personal mission. Like trying to make sure he stays in
that narrative, but he forgot that he had [ __ ] it up already. Like I think this is one of those like oops, gotcha.
Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. So that makes no sense. No, it doesn't. So over the course of the afternoon, he kept
obsessing over this interaction, slowly convincing himself, of course, that while he had, you know, it had been a
bad interaction with him with with these kids, the fact remained that they were polluting the planet. Mhm. So
sacrificing them to him felt like it made sense. He eventually convinced himself that this was okay. Okay. So
later that night, he came back under the cover of darkness, came back into the park. Damn. He hiked back out to the
campsite and approached it. He wanted to catch them off guard. This is so scary.
Yeah, because they probably thought nothing else. They forgot about him completely, I bet. Like they that just
wasn't even a blip on their radar, right? But the fire was still burning when he found the camp. And inside the
tent, he could hear them chatting and laughing with each other. Yeah. So, armed with a 22 caliber pistol, he
approached the tent and started unfassening the snaps that held the flaps closed. Oh my god. He startled
them obviously. And as soon as the tent opened, none of them had a chance to say
a word because he just started firing. And all six shots hit their intended targets. Each of them got hit
in the head. They all crumpled to the ground in a literal pile of bloody bodies. Oh, that's awful. And they're
all These are young kids. Oh, yeah. They're teenagers. And it's like they're in a pile now in this tent with down
feathers everywhere cuz he's shot through pillows, tattered sleeping bags. Like what an awful scene. So after
shooting the boys, he went through their pockets and took whatever money they had
on them. It's weird cuz I thought this was just for like, you know, a mission. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. What did that do? I
thought this was all for like higher moral purposes. And then he just tossed their wallets on the ground and left.
And oh, he also grabbed a rifle that he found in the corner of the tent because he said they didn't need it anymore. Oh
wow. This guy's a great a douchebag. So since he began his project of, you know, saving mankind in November, he had
killed 12 innocent people. Wow. Very innocent people. Chosen mostly at random. Yeah. Since then, his mental
health had deteriorated considerably, and it seemed like no matter what he did, the voices in his head were there
just demanding more supposedly. Just three days after killing the boys in Henry Cowell State Park, he was out for
a drive in Santa Cruz when the voice came into his thoughts again demanding another sacrifice. This is according to
Hen Herbert Mullen. By the way, can we go back for a second? He picked up the trash.
That's a great He picked up the [ __ ] That's a great question. That's a great question. What about all those down
feathers? Are those good for the feathers? That's polluting the environment. What about all the trash
you were so upset about and you just left the tent and biodegradable? Yeah. So, [ __ ] you. So, like, [ __ ] you. None
of this is for. Yeah. It's ridiculous. Sorry. Go ahead. No, don't worry. Needed to say that. I'm glad you said it. But,
so he's driving through Santa Cruz. He hears the voice saying, "You need to make another sacrifice." And at first he
said he thought about resisting, but instead he just pulled a U-turn and headed back into a quiet neighborhood
that he just driven through. Oh. As Herb drove slowly down the street, he spotted
72year-old Fred Perez. Are you kidding me? It's just standing on the sidewalk. He was a longtime resident of Santa
Cruz. He had once been a successful heavyweight prize fighter. Stop it. before retiring from boxing and using
his winnings to go into business for himself as a truck driver and a fishmonger. His businesses were
successful. He was able to provide for his family and then finally he passed the business down to his kids a few
years later. Oh, it's not known what Fred was actually doing that afternoon. He was just hanging out on the sidewalk.
Yeah. But it's likely he didn't even notice the Chevy car like slow to a stop nearby. and he definitely didn't notice
the driver aim the 22 caliber rifle in his direction. So he hit Fred Perez directly
in the heart with with a shot and killed him instantly on the sidewalk in his own
neighborhood. He was just in his own neighborhood living his life like and he did everything. He had like he had a
successful career. He provided for his family enjoys retirement now. He passed his and then he went into another
business to like provide even more for his family and then passed that business on to his kids. and he's just retired
and just living that. But this is totally about sacrifice. But this is definitely about that now. And so he was
killed instantly on the sidewalk. Herb having done his what he considered his duty put it, you know, the safety back
on the rifle, put it back in the trunk and left the scene calmly, just drove away. Insane. So Fred Perez likely never
saw his killer, but someone else did. Good. That afternoon, Fred's neighbors had been out in their garden and they
saw Herbert Mullen drive. [ __ ] with a quiet neighborhood. No, you don't. We got neighborhood watch going on. [ __ ]
yeah. I love my badass neighborhood. Yep. I I pull in my own neighborhood and I see people looking up their house.
Hell yeah. They So, his neighbors watched the U-turn happen. They watched him slow to a stop a few yards from
Perez. And they watched in horror as he was shot. They also managed to write down his license plate number before
he'd gotten too far down the street. Immediately ran inside and called the police. That is a real one. Now, as luck
would have it, the first officer to hear the report of the shooting go out over the radio was a patrol officer who was
in the neighborhood where Perez lived. Oh, wow. And within a minute of the shooting, Herbert Mullen was pulled over
on the side of the road. Wow. Within a minute. One minute. Yep. When the officer approached the driver's window,
he noted the man behind the wheel matched the description of the man who' fled the scene of the Perez shooting.
And he noted the 22 caliber pistol laying on the passenger seat. Yeah. In the days that followed, that pistol
would be a match for the slugs found in nine murder victims. But for the time being, the officer placed him under
arrest for the murder of Fred Perez, effectively ending Herbert Mullen's fivemonth murder spree that ended the
lives of 13 people. It's crazy that all that happened in five months. Yeah. Now,
when he was arrested on February 13th, 1972, the bodies of Mary Gilfoil, David Olicker, Robert Spectre, Brian Scott
Card, and Mark Drabelis had not been discovered yet. Oh, but Santa Cruz police were still able to hold him for
the murder of Fred Perez while they were still investigating. And in their interviews with those who knew Herbert
Mullen, police learned very little about his background and any potential motive
for these murders. The owner of the Pacific View Motel, where Herb had been staying for the last few days, described
him as an ordinary guy. He said he was real quiet. We never saw him except when he came by the office to get his mail.
And a former classmate was equally shocked by this whole thing and told reporters that Herbert Mullen was
extremely bright and very popular in high school. He said, "Herb always seemed to be uptight, but he was
popular." Which is so wild. That is really wild. While reporters just went ham trying to
get information about the accused killer, detectives were busy linking the gun back to the Francis and Giana
murders. On the afternoon of February 15th, he was brought before a municipal court judge and arraigned for the
murders of Fred Perez, Jim and Joan Giana, and Kathy David and Damon Francis. Oh, which oh kills me. When
asked if he had anything to say, he said, "In accordance with the fifth amendment, I will make no statement."
Okay, cool. You little [ __ ] The next day, fingerprints found in the confessional at St. Mary's Church were
determined to be a match for Herbert Mullen. Wow. And he was charged with the murder of Father Henry Toé. What a way
to find that. That's great. The arrest of Herbert Mullen came as a big relief to the residents of Santa Cruz.
Unfortunately, they did not know at the time that there was definitely another killer on the loose. Yeah, they had not
got Edmond Kemper at that point, but the motive for the murders was still a mystery. Nobody could understand. This
was so random, right? And Herbert Mullen wasn't talking. So, Peter Chang, who was
the district attorney at the time, told reporters, "The motive for these slangs is not clearly defined, but it appears
that each of these people was an acquaintance of the suspect at some time during troublesome phases of his life.
Not all of them at all. Yeah. So, it's like the two the logic I guess like you want I don't know. It doesn't make any
sense. Seems like they were just trying to make people feel better. I think it made sense about random crime. Yeah. It
made sense in the killings of, you know, the Gianeras and the Francis's because he did have an acquaintance there, but
it didn't explain the murder of Fred Perez or Father Toé or Mary Gilfoil or Lawrence White or the Boys in the Woods.
Like, it didn't none of those made sense. Yeah, that's exactly. Yeah. According to Santa Cruz Sheriff's
Detective Ken Pittinger, who spoke with um Herbert Mullen's family and former friends, uh Herbert quote freaked out on
acid during a visit to San Francisco's Hate Ashberry district two years after his high school graduation in
1965, which apparently could have accounted for his random and extremely violent behavior.
I'm going to go with no. I'm like, I know that it didn't help. No, it didn't help. But there there was definitely
other stuff here. Yeah, that's not that like Yeah, everybody knows a lot of people who have had a bad trip. Yeah,
you can't account a murder spree. No. No. So, the picture became even more opaque a few days later when the bodies
of the four teenagers were discovered by Brian Scott Card's brother, Jeffrey, in
the woods. He had not seen or heard from the group in two weeks. So Jeffrey Card
hitchhiked from Los Angeles to Santa Cruz to the campsite where he found his brother and three friends dead in the in
the tent. Oh, it's awful that he had to be the one to find that. There was no evidence found at the scene to link
Mullen to the killings, but investigators suspected he might be the one responsible anyways. And the body of
Mary Gilfoil had been discovered in the mountains a few days earlier. Oh god. Which must have been horrific. Yeah. And
Herb was suspected in that killing as well. And in his statement to the press, Chang referred to the murders as a quote
psychopathic type of killing. And the link to Herbert Mullen was entirely speculative at this point. Okay? Because
it was they didn't have any evidence. Within a few days of finding the teenagers in the woods, the murders of
all four boys were linked back to Herbert Mullen through the 22 caliber revolver used in the other killings, and
four more counts of murder were added to him. Additionally, the rifle used in the
murder of Fred Perez was soon traced back to the teenagers because remember he took it from their tent. Yep. Which
only strengthened the case against Mullen in the murders of David Oler, Robert Spectre, Brian Scottard, and Mark
Dbelbis. Now, after a brief delay, Herbert Mullen finally appeared in court in mid June and he entered a plea of
innocent by reason of insanity. That plea obviously required the trial to go in two phases. one tier evidence of
diminished capacity, the second to determine guilt. By the time the case went to trial in early August, Herbert
Mullen had been linked to the murders of Lawrence White and Mary Gilfoil, bringing his victim count to 13, though
he had only been charged with 10 murders at trial. Now, at trial, one of Herb's evaluating psychiatrists, Dr. Charles
Morris, laid out his motives based on what Mullen had told him during their consultations. Um, he said, "I think he
premeditated, considered it, and went ahead and did it." Dr. Morris explained that Herb had sought revenge against Jim
Geiana for quote, "lee leading him down the garden path to drug use, and he had killed the Francis family to get rid of
any witnesses because he had already knocked on that door." Which means that tells you what that he knew what he was
doing. He knew that was wrong, and he tried to cover it up. Yep. As for the boys in the woods, Morris claimed Herb
quote had a thing out for hippies. And since these people were hippies, it was a good time to do away with them. Feel
like it's not even like a thing for hippies. He was just pissed about the trash. Yeah. I think he just wanted to
Yeah. Basically, Dr. Morris didn't believe that Herb was criminally insane at the time of the murders. Agreed.
Rather, he had been under considerable emotional strain and ultimately killed Fred Perez in order to get caught. Yeah.
They think he literally did that to get caught. Do you think so? I have no idea honestly with that one. I can see both
sides of that argument. Yeah, because one, he does these I mean he did I mean he
did it to Lawrence White. He did it right on the side of the road. He hit him with the bat, but it was a little
more of a uh off to the side kind of thing. This was in a residential neighborhood on the
sidewalk as a cucumber, right? So, and I have to wonder, did he even did he see the neighbors? He might have even seen
the neighbors and been like, I don't know. Yeah, it is interesting to think about because I do believe he is a
mentally unstable, mentally ill man. I don't think you can argue that. I just don't think he's insane. Same. Agree.
That's And those are two different things. Yeah, I can see both sides of the argument with the did he do it
intentionally to get caught thing. I could see it being that. I could see it just being coincidence. A coincidence
that he got caught. Now, Mullen took the stand to testify in his own defense a few days later and did his best to
refute much of what the doctor said. According to Mullen, quote, "He didn't think it was right to kill and he had
gone to a loss church to give him strength to never attempt to kill again." Apparently, that didn't work cuz
then you killed a priest. Yeah. In the church. So, like I don't know how much ground you have to stand on there. Yeah.
And then continued to kill many, many people after that. Exactly. Over the course of several hours, he went on to
claim that he was commanded to kill by the voices in his head, which sounds a lot like someone who was trying to get
that insanity uh defense. And he gave what one reporter referred to as quote a rambling answer complete with biblical
references, which is kind of textbook, kind of textbook. His testimony was often
unfocused, very incoherent, frequently contradicted himself, you know, that kind of thing. For example, when asked
why he killed the four young campers in the woods, he said, quote, "I had been arrested in 1968 for camping in
possession of marijuana, and it bothered me that they should get away with it." I'm sorry, what? I thought it was the
polluting. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? And at no point earlier did he say they had marijuana on them.
No. And it's like, now you're saying that you were annoyed that they were allowed to camp there and you got in
trouble for it, so you killed them. What? Yeah. Like, hello. Yeah. And in that way, he said he was enforcing the
law. No, that's not how the law works actually at all. But then only a short time later, he said something different
about it. He said he quote received a telepathic message from the young men saying it was all right to kill kill
them. So he did. It sounds like he just had an urge to kill people and followed through in that urge. And he tried to
tried to come up with a reason. Tried to explain it. Yeah. On August 19th, the jury deliberated
briefly before finding Herb guilty on two counts of firstdegree murder and eight counts of seconddegree murder,
effectively removing the question of diminished capacity from the case. The jury appears to have recognized that he
definitely struggled with mental illness. No one is disagreeing with that, but they believed there was
sufficient evidence to suggest he knew what he was doing and he knew that it was morally and legally wrong. Yeah.
Like he literally walked around a couple of scenes and picked up shell shell casings like got rid of witnesses and
another he got rid of the whole friends. He got rid of children because he didn't
he knew they could point and say he showed up at my door, right? Like come on. In his statement to the press, um
Herbert Mullen's attorney said he felt the jury had not wanted to find him criminally insane because he might end
up being released at some point in the future. He said, he told reporters, "If a man found innocent by reason of
insanity went to a hospital and was never going to get out, I think we'd have a lot more insanity verdicts." I
don't think that's the case. I think they think he knew what he was doing was wrong and baby girl, why don't you look
up the definition of legally insane. Exactly. Like don't sit here and try to say like they just don't want him to get
out of prison and get out of the hospital. It's like no, we're just looking at the definition of legally
insane. And pinning it on the jury like that is just such a copout. Yeah. Like [ __ ] you. Like you failed. Well, and
also just days after the verdict, jury foreman Ken Springer wrote a letter to the governor expressing his outrage that
no one had intervened to prevent this loss of 13 lives. Like no one had intervened in Herbert Mullen's life and
made this stop. He wrote, "I hold the state executive and state legislative offices as responsible for these 10
lives as I do the defendant himself. None of this need ever have happened." and he cited his multiple
hospitalizations and releases as missed opportunities to keep a killer off the street. That's the thing like the the
defense attorney there wants to point to the jury as having it be their fault. It's like no, it's actually a system
failure like it is most of the time. Very much a systemic failure here. Yeah. And he was just pointing to what would
continue to be a systematic failure because a lot of times people who are proven proven criminally insane do go to
these hospitals and they do get let out and the whole [ __ ] issue starts up again. Yeah. The cycle begins again.
Right. So it's it is a systematic failure. Yeah. He he wrote in the letter, according to testimony at his
trial, Herbert Mullen could and did respond favorably to treatment of his mental illness. Yet, the laws of the
state certainly prohibit officials from forcing continued treatment of his illness. And I have the impression that
they, as a matter of fact, discourage continued treatment by state and county institutions. Which, like, all right,
Ken. I know. Like, good for you writing to your governor being like, "Fuck y'all." Like, like these 13 people
didn't have to die. More people need to do [ __ ] like that. Yeah. Cuz it's like
there's a this is a a failure on many levels. Mhm. Herbert Mullen was ultimately sentenced to life in prison
and sent to Mule Creek State Prison and loan to serve out his sentence. He tried
many times to gain parole, but he was repeatedly deemed unsuitable by the parole board and denied. While at Mule
Creek, he corresponded regularly with supporters outside the prison. That's absolutely [ __ ] boring. And even
attempted to find a wife. Did he? No. In 1987, he placed an ad in the Scots Valley banner. Why is that allowed? And
he wrote, "Seeking an Irish wife and he described himself as 40 years old. I'm 14 years in prison. I desire to sire
children now." No, thank you. You killed children. Yeah, absolutely not. Crazy. The ad was unsuccessful. That's wild.
Also, saying sire children is [ __ ] nuts. I got to go. On August 18th, 2022. Yeah. Recently, Herbert Mullen died of
natural causes at the California Healthc Care facility in Stockton at 75 years old. Unfortunate he got to live his life
out that long and die of natural causes. Very, very unfortunate. I hate that he got to live. I do too.
But because also he outlived Fred Perez and that makes me angry cuz Fred was 72.
Yeah. I'm like, [ __ ] you. A lot of times actual justice is just really never served. It's hard to come by sometimes.
Yeah, it is. I mean, at least he went to prison. But yeah, just the fact that somebody like that shouldn't have
had access to put an ad out for a wife. No, like I don't I obviously like prison
shouldn't be this like horrible like throw away the key, you know? Yeah. Like the whole part is supposed to be it
should be for reform to a degree and we've had that conversation so many times. But I just don't feel like
somebody of that level of like lack of humanity should be able to put a [ __ ] ad out for a voice. Exactly. I totally
agree. Like should he be able to take a class and you know maybe better his mind
a little bit? Exactly. But like that kind of thing. But putting out a personal ad like really we're trying to
do that? Like come on. No. Absolutely not. Ridiculous. Well, that was a crazy tale. Yeah. That's Herbert Mullen. With
all of that being said. Yeah, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you go
to prison after murdering a bunch of people and then place an ad in your local paper uh saying that you want to
sire children. Gross with an Irish wife. Yeah. So, so specific. Yeah. Adorable. Strange and upsetting.
[Music] [Music]

Throughout the early 1970s, California’s Bay Area was in the grip of terror as multiple serial killers operated at the time same time and in more or less the same space. In time, some of these killers, like Ed Kemper, would be caught, while others, like the Zodiac Killer, would remain unidentified. Yet it was the ones who appeared to kill at random, without any preferred victim, that would prove the most terrifying and most difficult to catch. Herbert Mullin was one such killer, and while he may have been active for a very short period, he managed to do a tremendous amount of damage in such a little amount of time.

Over a five-month period in late 1972 and early 1973, Herbert Mullin killed thirteen people, including a college girl, a Catholic priest, and a former high school friend and that friend’s neighbors. To investigators, Mullin’s victims appeared to be—and indeed largely were—chosen at random and the weapons used were chosen more out of convenience than pathology. Had Mullin’s final murder not been committed in full view of witnesses, there’s a very good chance he would have gone on to kill many more people before being caught, if he ever was.

Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!

References Associated Press. 1972. "Dragnet set up for Catholic priest's slayer." Los Angeles Times, November 4: 34.

Dowd, Katie. 2022. "'Murder capital of the world': The terrifying years when multiple serial killers stalked Santa Cruz." SF Gate, August 21.

Green, Ryan. 2024. I Hear Voices: A Descent into the Dark Half of Psychotic Killer, Herbert Mullin. Herefordshire, UK: Independent.

Honig, Tom. 1973. "Did Mullin slay fourteen." Santa Cruz Sentinel, August 10: 1.

—. 1973. "Mullin enters plea: innocent, insanity." Santa Cruz Sentinel, June 13: 1.

—. 1973. "Mullin explains his reason for killing." Santa Cruz Sentinel, August 15: 1.

—. 1973. "Mullin is found guilty." Santa Cruz Sentinel, August 20: 1.

—. 1973. "'Overtones' of drugs in five slayings." Santa Cruz Sentinel, January 28: 1.

—. 1973. "Slaying suspect called a 'quiet, regular guy'." Santa Cruz Sentinel, February 15: 1.

Lunde, Donald, and Jefferson Morgan. 1980. The Die Song: A Journey into the Mind of a Mass Murderer. New York, NY: Norton.

Santa Crus Sentinel. 1973. "Suspect charged in six shootings." Santa Cruz Sentinel, February 15: 1.

Santa Cruz Sentinel. 1972. "Another disturbance at SC County Jail." Santa Cruz Sentinel, September 14: 19.

—. 1972. "Body of slain transient is identified." Santa Cruz Sentinel, October 16: 10.

—. 1972. "Investigator hired to find Cabrillo coed." Santa Cruz Sentinel, November 26: 46.

—. 1972. "Priest slain in confessional box of church." Santa Cruz Sentinel, November 3: 2.

Smith, Dave. 1973. "Killer of killers? Town waiting for answer." Los Angeles Times, February 19: 3.

United Press International. 1973. "Friends claim man charged with 7 deaths used drugs." Sacramento Bee, February 16: 21. Connect with Wondery http://wondery.com/shows http://facebook.com/WonderyMedia http://twitter.com/WonderyMedia http://instagram.com/WonderyMedia

Brief Summary

Herbert Mullen, the "Hippie Killer," murdered 13 people in Santa Cruz, driven by delusions and a warped sense of mission.

Key points

Hellbender Movie Recommendation. Elena and Ash discuss the unique horror film Hellbender, recommended by a TikTok user.
Herbert Mullen's Dark Turn. Herbert Mullen's mental state deteriorates as he contemplates a morally righteous mission.
Tragic Home Invasion. Herbert Mullen's violent rampage leads to the murder of a family.
Police Response to Murders. Authorities urge residents to remain calm after the brutal killings.
Herbert Mullen's Justification. Mullen convinces himself that his murders are for a greater purpose, despite the randomness.
The Campground Encounter. Mullen confronts a group of teenagers camping, leading to a violent decision later that night.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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Tension

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