Garage Refill /// The Unabomber /// Part 2 | Forensic Files

[Music] is it possible to predict the unpredictable could surgeons use a patient's own Anatomy to create 3D
printed life-size organ models to map out challenges ahead of time making surgery more precise efficient and less
invasive is it possible it already is because every day we're doing what's never been done learn more at
mayoclinic.org soss mayoclinic you know where to go when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley
has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special financing options available you can
snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of better sleep to children in need and US
Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today and make every snooze count financing is
subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for [Music] [Applause] details [Music]
welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you doing thanks for listening I'm your host Nick and with me
as always is a man who claims to have been Spit On by Keith Hernandez here is the captain yeah nice game pretty boy
it's good to be seen it's good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a
[Music] friend today we are still sipping on birthday Bomb by The Genius beer brewers
over at Prairie Artisan ALS this is a fantastic beer with a birthday party going down right on the label it's a
celebration it's a festival it's a delicious Imperial Stout double coffee Imperial Stout if you're nasty ABV a
bombing 133% so drink this one at home in your garage sound the trumpets please as birthday bomb is most definitely a
five out of five bottle caps kind of beer and let's give some praise to our good friends right here first up we have
a shout to Kim and Chris in Florida a big cheers to Nicholas l in Parts Unknown and here's a double cheers to
Jan and Jana in Seattle hey hey hey Jan and a big we like your jib to Deborah in
Roseville Michigan next up here's a cheers to Kai and cersi Arkansas and last but certainly not least we have
Miss Natalie bones in Seattle Washington so thanks to everyone for tuning into Today's Show and thank you to everyone
who contributed to this week's beer fund yeah BW R you in beer run for all of our
old episodes check them out wherever you listen to your podcast and make sure you
check out our bonus podcast called off the record on Stitcher premium exclusive ly on Stitcher premium check that out
and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
crime on July 22nd 1993 and an employee at the University of California is injured after opening a package that
exploded in his kitchen the package was mailed to his home this is world-renowned geneticist Dr Charles
Epstein he was severely injured in the attack just two days later Captain a prominent computer scientist from Yale
University receives a bomb in the mail and lost several fingers when he opened up the package in December of 1994
a package was received at the home of Thomas Moser in North Caldwell New Jersey Thomas Moser was an executive at
the public relations firm Bon marstellar Thomas opens the package and is killed immediately now this is Bomb number 15
if you are keeping score at home MH on April 24th 1995 a mailbomb was sent to William
Dennison at his office however Dennis who the package is addressed to is actually the former
president of the California Forestry Association located in Sacramento so the new president is the one who actually
receives this package this is Gilbert Murray he opens the package and he is killed
immediately so now what we have here Captain is two bombs in a row that are both deadly our attacker seems to have
perfected his craft which has to be scary for the FBI because what we know in his previous attacks is not just
sending bombs to individuals but the bombs that he put on the flight flight 444 and if that bomb would have went off
we're talking about casualties almost up to a 100 people and so if he's able to then go hey well this is working instead
of going after single individuals again I'll go after the airlines again and if they don't stop it I mean you're you're
talking about a massive Devastation Captain I want to get into some Communications that have been going
on through the course of this investigation and these attacks now there was a letter that was sent to the
San Francisco Examiner in 1985 and I actually have in my notes here that a letter at some point was
received by the San Francisco Chronicle as well I don't have that date in front of me but one thing interesting
to our listeners they will remember the San Francisco Chronicle from the Zodiac case that's where he sent most of his
Communications now in this letter back from 1985 the author is explaining what FC stands for so I'll
just read the first couple sentences of this letter and what it says here is that this was a
handwritten letter and it says to the San Francisco Examiner the bomb that crippled the right arm of a graduate
student in electrical engineering and damaged a computer lab at U of cow Berkeley last May was planted by a
terrorist group called Freedom club we are also responsible for some earlier bombing attempts and it goes on to list
some of those attempts and it also goes on to State how some of the s were constructed to try to prove that we are
in fact who we say we are yeah and then also they reminded everybody that the first rule of Freedom Club is to not
talk about Freedom Club as well as the second rule of Freedom Club as well now there was some communication with the
New York Times from this same terrorist group that's identifying themselves as terrorist group FC in their
Communications with a Warren Hodge of the New York Times this letter was in 1995 again
explaining just like we said with the previous letter what the group stands for what
they're responsible for and descriptions of bombs proving we are who we say we are what's interesting about this
scenario with both of these situations with the the letter to the San Francisco newspaper and then the New York Times
one thing that the FBI was doing in their investigations was they were able to really pinpoint and determine where
the mail bombs that were actually sent through the mail were shipped from where where someone dropped them into the mail
they found that the majority of the communications as well as the majority of the bombs that were mailed were
mailed in the San Francisco area so what they believe in their investigation is that they are looking for someone who
lives in or around the greater San Francisco area now we have another scenario and
this comes from the 1995 letter to the New York Times what they see on the letter is indications
like someone had wrote something on another piece of paper on top of this letter or this envelope that was sent to
the New York Times through some analysis there able to determine what what was written and
it was written call Nathan R Wednesday 700 p.m. now the FBI is desperately looking for a Nathan R because they
believe that this evidence suggest to them that the unibomber made a mistake he accidentally wrote over top of his
letter and now they need to find a Nathan R because a Nathan R May may have received a call on a Wednesday at 7:00
p.m. at some point from the unibomber who made a note to themselves call Nathan R Wednesday 7 p.m. they are
making a national hunt for everyone named Nathan r with the last initial last name initial of R yeah or possibly
Nathan R is connected to this Freedom Club their second objective once they track down every Nathan R and ask them
the simple question of do you know who the unibomber is or do you who called you on a Wednesday at 7 p.m. so so on
and so forth yeah or sometimes they ask him to straight up are you a piece of [ __ ] they thought you know what if it's
not Nathan last name that starts with r once we've cleared all them let's start looking for Nathan middle initial R
right the problem with this is there's a lot of Nathan RS out there first of all
and second of all not all these guys want to talk talk to you you know you're a law enforcement agency and you're
saying hey we need to ask you a couple questions you're going what are you doing contacting me I don't know what it
is that you're talking about get the hell out of here especially if you're nowhere near the San Francisco area I
wonder if there was any communication within the FBI to go well we have now communication from this
FC possibly an individual or a group all the communication is coming from San Francisco
our communication with the Zodiac was coming from San San Francisco there's now communication between this unibomber
or FC towards newspapers just like the zodiac is it I wonder if there was conversation
within the agency to go is this somehow connected to the Zodiac my guess would be that when you have this many agents
working on a case and in a case that's uh has a span of this many years that you probably have all kinds of
speculation and theories especially early on in the case when you have really no evidence at all of anything
going on other than this FC calling card that's being left with each bomb so remember the communication with Warren
Hodge of the New York Times what we then have are several threatening letters that are sent to persons that would lay
be receiving bombs or at least the threat of possibly receiving a bomb and I'll read one but there were multiple of
these and this one says Dear Dr Roberts it would be be it would be beneficial to
your health to stop your research in genetics this is a warning from FC Warren hodj of the New York Times can
confirm that this note does come from FC which is bizarre because this is a complete different approach to some of
the attacks later that we're seeing in the 9s compared to what we saw in the late 70s and 80s
where there is in fact a communication in advance and a threat that is sent out saying stop what you're doing here's our
threat we are FC and oh yeah this guy Warren hodj he can confirm that we are who we say we are because we've already
communicated with him at the New York Times and what we'll learn later is by the 90s the mid90s that the FBI is going
to have a list of about 2,000 suspects yes um in April 24 1995 that was the last deadly bomb that
was received again it was at the California Forestry Association exactly two months later on
June 24th 1995 copies of a three copies of a 35,000 word essay titled industrial
society and its future future by FC were sent to the New York Times The Washington Post and Penthouse Magazine
again very similar because it's sending to three different Publications and then also very similar
like what the Zodiac did to say hey publish these ciphers publish this Manifesto right and what you have here
Captain is basically it's this very lengthy Manifesto of what the author deems to be the
industrial society and the damages that it's doing to our society and to our freedoms and so on and so forth but also
saying you know we are FC we are the freedom club we are this terrorist organization who has been terrorizing
America for well over a decade now now if you publish our essay and I think there was even the words in there
publish or perish meaning if you don't publish this we're going to ramp up our attacks and oh yeah we've been deadly as
of late we've killed the last two people that we've attempted to kill now we can
ramp up these attacks if you don't submit to our demands which is publishing this
essay or if you do publish it well we will desist from terrorism if this demand is
met there was of course a lot of controversy over the idea do we give into this terrorist demand of printing
their essay in the papers I believe it was titled industrial society and its future what you end up having happen
here is this great debate that is going on behind the scenes do we publish or do
we not publish yeah and really what we want to have happen here the FBI is going to have the final say so they're
going to tell these Publications if they can publish or not however these things
were sent to three different periodical so we have the New York Times And The Washington Post that really says that
you know we are going to go off of the FBI's recommendation well and look we we have
a debate going on with inside the agency because like we were talking about earlier last week um off the Record if
you will that they did these uh strategies with the Zodiac and never caught him so the people that are saying
hey we need to publish this because this is going to bring other people out to to
possibly be able to identify this group or this individual and there's other people coming back and going hey it
didn't work with zodiac so how are you so certain that it's going to work with this uni bombers manifest it didn't work
with zodiac but the interesting thing is that the majority of the time when these
especially when it's a Serial offender that when they start communicating the communication is what
often leads to their capture and so you have this you have this conf confusion going on of oh we
don't give into terrorist demands but oh this also might be this might be our Spearhead for our
investigation to finally catching this guy mhm so the Penthouse Magazine look they're they're looking to become
newsworthy I guess right they're saying okay times they're going to defer to the
FBI the post is going to defer to the FBI we're going to publish it here at Penthouse Magazine yeah they said no
more with the tatas the ties and the tatas we're gonna we're going to go right after the industrial society well
they they were going to continue doing exactly what they were doing but they they knew this thing's going to sell a
lot of paper sell a lot of magazines and so of course they wanted to post it and
this is public information this is being released to the the ongoing talks of whether to publish or not are upfront
and center and the public is aware of what's going on it's just sad that but their editor wanted to call it the
Unabomber Manifesto well the the thing here is though now we have an issue of the author of the
industrial society and its future they're going well this was kind of a good game plan by the author in my
opinion because you have two quote unquote respectable two respectable Publications and one that's not
respectable and he or the author who whomever it was or this group or what have you they want this Manifesto to be
printed in an upstanding publication the New York Times The Washington Post or both but it's kind of cool that they
leverage this against those two by sending it to someone who was probably just willing to print it to sell papers
sell magazines and so when you see that this debate is going on in front of the American public now you have the
you have the author or authors come forward and say okay look we agreed that we would stop our terrorism we would
stop the bombings if this was printed however if it's not printed in the two newspapers or one of the two newspapers
and it's only printed in Penthouse Magazine because it's not an upstanding publication well we reserve the right to
send one more deadly bomb one more deadly attack and then it can be posted in the Penthouse magazine and we will
stop our terrorism then our acts of terrorism then what they realized with the three different Publications was we
should we should print this in the Washington Post because it's going to be easier for us to monitor um it had it
had a less of a footprint as far as where the Washington Post was received by readers right when you say they you
mean the FBI the FBI has to put some Strate some strategy into this idea of do we post or not well cuz they know
that once they post that that this individual is going to want to read this and so they figured well maybe we could
catch him that way by wanting to read his work in the paper right so what you have is a double-pronged attack the
authors the this group FC Freedom Club they picked these three Publications well the New York Times is well
distributed everywhere across the entire country The Washington Post it's distributed across the entire country
but there's fewer Outlets to purchase and pick up the actual paper Penthouse Magazine I would assume is distributed
across the country but again fewer Outlets to pick up the magazine and you're exactly right Captain they
determined that in San Francisco in the greater San Francisco area where we think this guy is
uh living there was only I believe one place that you could purchase the Washington Post in that greater San
Francisco area so they're like cool on the day we will agree to print this Manifesto but we're it's like the
deli press release the deli press conference that we saw a couple years back where they made the announcement in
advance this is when we are doing this trying to draw the killer trying to draw the attention from the killer to that
location on that specific day so now we're going to announce yes we will print it it will be printed in the
Washington Post only and it will be printed on September 19th 1995 so author FC you now know when you
should be ready to go purchase and pick up your new newpaper they're going to monitor that
location in San Francisco with the idea of photographing and questioning every individual that buys a copy at that news
stand or what have you on September 19th 1995 it's a two-pronged approach to their investigation to draw out the
killer one either he does show up in the San Francisco area and purchase a Washington Post newspaper on said day
and they lure him out that way or B they print the manifesto somebody that knows
FC can identify them by their words and by their writing can contact the FBI and say I think I know who
you're looking for right and I also think there's some identifiers in there that the FBI saw right and you would
have that in really any type of writing especially something that's 35,000 words
yeah I mean there's a lot to sift through there there's a lot to consider but not just the identifiers that you're
pointing out here but it's also the ideals yes I mean this is that's what this manuscript is it's it's a a list of
ideal of how this person believes that the future is going to be affected by the Industrial Revolution and and and
everything going on with technology and nature versus technology and so on and so forth that someone will probably at
some point recognize the mission of FC or Freedom club and understand that because again we go back to yesterday's
trailer when we talk about the psychological makeup of this individual you're really patting yourself on the
back about that that uh trailer aren't you well if he's anything like the mad bomber what Dr brussle determined was
that this would be a grudge told her that this person would have certain delusions and would have certain ideas
that they might be able to act normal and set those aside until it comes up somewhere in conversation or until they
bring it up somewhere in conversation and this their ideas would be discussed with others well also with this
Manifesto I mean right away to me it's like this person has a higher level of intelligence um he's speaking of
ideas uh one of the great Elanor Roosevelt quotes is great minds discuss ideas average Minds discuss events and
small minds discuss people and he's not essentially doing that in this Manifesto
he is presenting these ideas uh and these problems that he sees facing the whole of society but not blaming
individuals I'm I respect your opinion but I'm going to have to disagree he's not talking about individuals
specifically but he kind of lumps people together and categorizes people as certain things and references them in
that manner and he does reference events as well to kind of back up his claims or
his beliefs yeah but I also think some of one you can see his intelligence two there's a lot of futuristic predictions
I think now a lot of stuff that is being talked about now and so that's why I think people were going to wait maybe
this guy wasn't a complete madman uh even comparing this Manifesto to you know 1984 George Orwell's
1984 maybe he lumped people into very standard groups but he's not going after one individual or multiple individuals
and saying all this is their fault that's correct um anybody I I don't know if you've read it or not
Captain but uh again I I have a bit of a different take probably on this than some people that I've seen give their
opinions on well there's there's also two versions because he updated it so there I think there's one that's like
126 pages and then one that's Le less than that yeah so I'm just going off of the one that was printed in the paper on
September 19th 1995 when he's making the threats um yeah it's um yeah it's you can obviously tell that it
was written by an intelligent individual or a group of individuals and it's but at the end of the day to me it looks
like the ramblings of an Angry Young Man um I I didn't find anything particularly
brilliant about the the thoughts of the future of society or lack of freedoms that us as individuals may have in that
Society it I mean it's nothing there's no predictions or thoughts in there that would be any more brilliant than George
Lucas's Star Wars or stuff that we've seen in sci-fi uh books comic books and TV
throughout the decades right but I think I I think that's lessen lessening these
ideas I mean maybe he just came out with these ideas in 1995 but he's talking about the way he thinks Society is going
to work with artificial intelligence and that stuff that's we're just now talking
about in the public uh atmosphere like in The Last 5 Years and so yeah I mean I but I think the work of uh George Lucas
and and the creators of like Star Trek and the things that they were able to think of how they thought the future
would go those were genius ideas and so if you compare them to that I think you'd have to say some
of these thoughts are genius level ideas agreed agreed as said I believe it's obvious that the uh there's some
intelligence there from the author I just don't find it to be anything super unique he's not the only one thinking of
some of these ideas now what this does do though is it does have the desired effect because we start getting a lot
lot of people coming forward saying oh I know somebody that talks like this I know somebody that that has said similar
ideas I know someone that writes like this so on and so forth what we end up having Captain is a
husband and wife will eventually come forward and this will be David kazinski and Linda Patrick and the way that this
goes down is Linda Patrick decides she is going to read this Manifesto knows that it's going to be published decides
that she is going to read it she reads it and she informs her husband David she says this sounds to me a lot like your
[Music] brother this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays
maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even
anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings
therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you feel grounded and to give you the tools to
manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed
to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief question Aire to get matched with a
licensed therapist and switch therapist at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with
betterhelp visit betterhelp.com garaget toay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp
hp.com garage is it possible to predict the unpredictable could surgeons use a patient's own Anatomy to create 3D
printed life-size organ models to map out challenges ahead of time making surgery more precise efficient and less
invasive is it possible it already is because every day we're doing what's never been done learn more at
mayoclinic.org Sloss Mayo Clinic you know where to go Rosetta Stone is the language
learning program with a lasting impact I've been using the rap to learn French and it's not just about memorizing ing
words but actually having real conversations and it's not just French they offer 25 languages right now
Rosetta Stone has an awesome holiday deal 50% off their lifetime membership every language unlimited access forever
for anyone keen on diving deep into a new language check out rosettastone.com it's a game
[Music] changer [Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Colonel and cheers to everybody
for the the nice uh birthday wishes yesterday I appreciate it and cheers to the people in the back all right we
brought up David kazinski and his wife Linda Patrick the way this comes about here is Linda Patrick tells David I
think that this author of this Manifesto could be your brother it sounds a lot like how your brother
writes this is really interesting because Linda Patrick had never technically met David's brother Ted
right he just would write them quite often he would write them some nasty letters and a lot of the letters are
about David now being married to Linda and how much Ted does not like Linda and how much Linda has changed his brother
David andbody never met her for the worse that's right that's hilarious yeah well he's the ultimate Grudge
holder um and so Linda it does take some convincing to her husband David that the
writings are similar and in fact David ends up finding an essay that Ted had written years before that actually is
listing out a lot of these same ideas that are presented in the what is dubb by the FBI the unibomber
manifesto eventually David is convinced that his brother should be looked at he's concerned because you have things
like Ruby Ridge that went down where the FBI surrounded a home and they had guns
inside a gun a gunfight breaks out and we now have people dead as a result of Ruby Ridge he was worried the same thing
could happen with his brother his brother's living out in the middle of nowhere in Lincoln Montana in a tiny
little cabin and he's got guns in his little cabin got really annoying after like the fifth or sixth person as I'm
researching this case said little Log Cabin this is not a log cabin this looks more like a
shed yeah and there's no running water and there's no I believe there was no electricity as well no he's [ __ ] in
the floor inside this cabin well to put it as bluntly as possible gave me some warning I'm trying to
finish my sandwich he could have bothered to build and out house at some point maybe he did and decided to to
move it inward I don't know but anyway it was too cold it was too his [ __ ] was
freezing so he had [ __ ] inide but see David is he's at like a Crossroads man because he's got to
decide do I suggest that my brother could be he's not 100% convinced right that Ted is in fact the unibomber the
Most Wanted serial killer in the country at the time he's not 100% convinced does he make this suggestion
to the FBI or look if if he's wrong and Ted is innocent and some type of gunfight
breaks out Ted could end up losing his life or if Linda is right his brother Ted could send out
another bomb and kill somebody even though he said hey I'll stop if you this you can never take a a threat at its
word especially from terrorists yeah I think what's interesting here is that they can they contact a lawyer and they
end up contacting a linguist to basically go over what they think they are seen and both the lawyer and the
linguist confirm it and say no look we think this is the same individual and we need to go to FBI with this eventually
and it doesn't happen over night captain again a lot of debate a lot of things going on behind the scenes here but
eventually the FBI does become convinced that Ted kazinski is in fact the guy the
problem that they have with Ted kazinski being Prime Suspect being the perpetrator is that it actually goes
against a lot of the stuff that they collected against the unibomber he doesn't live anywhere near San Francisco
right the guy doesn't even own a vehicle he's [ __ ] in his house the other thing too is he doesn't fit the profile
he's a little older than the profiles would suggest I do want to throw this out there there were dozens of profiles
put together about the unibomber including John Douglas that were not at the end of the day didn't turn
out to be great profiles but also the physical description that was given by the witness that saw the man placing the
package in the the parking lot right had the age wrong had the hair color wrong so
there's a lot of reasons to look at this guy and go I see what you're saying that
the language is similar but are we going to go and get this guy simply based off
of language and no physical evidence at all zero physical evidence so much so that it looks difficult that this guy
could be our guy yeah but what they do now because because they have a name as they can then go well what is Ted
kazinsky past and where how did he get to this point where he was living in this cabin
isolated all alone and they're going to start to see reasons that will tie someone like Ted to a lot of these
attacks first off he has a history his childhood he lived in the he lived in the Illinois in the state of Illinois
right more specifically around Chicago we know that one at least one or two of the attacks were Chicago based
attacks at the age of 16 Ted enters Harvard University he graduates from Harvard in
1962 he is accepted to the University of Michigan for a graduate program to study
mathematics well I mean let's not glaze over the fact that he was in a three-year long experimental
psychological experimental um study at Harvard when he was 16 right not trying to glaze over that just
pointing out what they will look at with his past that's known to them by knowing
his name and how it connects to some of these attacks so we do know that University of Michigan was one of the
targets what they're learning here is look this guy is this guy is smart at one point test a IQ of like 167 or
something like that so he's capable of making these bombs and then he goes like you said to Michigan and then also then
goes to uh Berkeley California so now we have connection to Berkeley California as well yes in
um 1967 is when he moves from the University of Michigan out to University of California Berkeley there he will be
a teacher he's going to teach math at Berkeley and then in 1969 he resigns from the math department at Berkeley
yeah he he moves back home with his parents for about 2 years but during that time period him his brother and I I
believe his uh father as well um they all help him build this Shack in Montana yeah it was 1971 when he purchased 1.4
acres in South Lincoln Montana and he and his brother start to build this cabin but at the same time captain in
1971 Ted completes an untit essay on the evils of Technology this will be again similar to
that of the industrial society in its future once the FBI is convinced that this could be their guy that this should
be their number one suspect you got to look at him and clear him before you can move on they decide to start
surveillance on Ted and his cabin in Lincoln Montana shortly afterwards Captain Theodore John kazinski was
arrested by the FBI in April of 1996 he's arrested at his cabin in Montana and of course he is accused of killing
three people and injuring over 20 people in 16 separate bombings between the years of 1978 and
1995 I mean yeah this is some of the biggest news uh the capturing of the unit bomber in 1996 some of the biggest
news of 1996 you also have Princess Diana and Charles getting a divorce you have mad cow disease in the UK and then
obviously you have Jan Ramsay's killing later on in that year and as you pointed
out earlier Captain one of the issues they had with Ted was they had 2,000 they being the FBI had 2,000 suspects in
this case and Ted kazinski was not listed in that top 2000 have applaud his brother and his sister-in-law for coming
forward and saying hey um because yeah maybe your brother's writing you some strange letters here and there but he's
not hurting anybody and Ted had no History of Violence that his family knew of and and actually the opposite one of
the things you know Ted had severe hives when he was a kid and he was isolated in
in the hospital when he was younger before his little brother was even born BN but one of the things that his mother
said was he always had a the way he treated animals especially animals that were in caged he had a real empathy for
them which you normally don't see I mean you hear a lot of times with like Ted Bundy and Jeffrey dmer and things like
that cruelty to animals at a young age and he had the opposite of that well he may not have had these deadly desires
until later on in his life and probably I think he probably had some of this before that experimental stuff that
was going on at Harvard but I think that really pushed it further along it certainly didn't help the young man I'm
going to argue with you because there there's no sign of that and he was Avid with journaling and I don't think
there's any record of him having any homicidal thoughts until he got to Michigan which would have been years
after the experiment and he and he says three-year-long experiment which was done by Henry Murray at Harvard that it
was the worst experience of his life but he doesn't think that the experiment changed the outcome of Ted kazinsky life
or not right I don't think that it did I think he's absolutely right in saying that I'm saying I don't think it helped
if no it defin if he was having any kind of issues or problems before that this certainly would not have helped this
young man and many people have pointed out that look there were other people that were subjected to the same
experiment and they didn't go on to blow people up they didn't go on to be years
old that and that's what I'm pointing out that's different set of circumstances here he he's younger on on
all on every level imaginable emotional intellectually and developmentally you know and so on I
mean look I mean he just to go over his history a little bit you know he scores high on this IQ test
they skip him one grade couple uh grades go by then they end up skipping him another grade uh he did some summer
classes so then that's how he got to Harvard at the age of 16 but you're your family lives in Chicago and they're
sending you across halfway across the United States to go live by yourself and he just wasn't ready but again there is
no record of any homicidal thought or even I believe Suicidal Thoughts until after the experiment to me that is proof
I mean one of the things that you hear constantly when you're looking up Ted kazinski is that uh you know Harvard
isn't responsible for any of these actions and none of these deaths should be at a plac at Harvard's door and I I
argue completely against that I mean a year after these experiments he is in Michigan talking to to therapist about
homicidal thoughts I think it's direct correlation and again if if you had any evidence of it beforehand then I would
say maybe it didn't change the outcome of this kid's life but I I think the this experiment was um you know and
again it's also stated like as fact that this experiment was like MK Ultra and that's not true we we don't know for
certain what this everything that took place with inside this experiment so Ted himself is saying that it didn't affect
him or he doesn't think it affected him I think it did affect him and also what he's getting wise too is how much
information they have against him but how all that information is connected to the cabin so now his thought is if I can
get you know the information from the cabin thrown out then I could walk out of here Scott free yeah he doesn't
really get them to he doesn't trick them into presenting the evidence to him they
make the mistake of presenting the evidence to him because they want to get a confession from Ted kazinski because
they do not have that great of a case against this guy so they're really hoping to get him to sign on the dotted
line and confess to all of these attacks and the murders and you're right though he mean
they don't have a good case against them cuz they have thousands of pieces of evidence against them then why are they
going after a confession I understand that they they had lots of evidence against the guy
they wanted a confession from Ted kazinski well because there was no direct evidence to anything like the
actual bombs or anything there was no fingerprints on those bombs and so all they had was these these diagrams and
these these notes but that what I'm saying is they had thousands of pieces of those
correct but he very quickly realizes during the interrogation process that they are presenting their evidence to
him and yes he's going to flip it and use it against them and tell them you know you base your search warrant off of
linguistics that is that's just a word that's just a term that you kind of made up this is not something that has been
used in previous search warrants yes I guess pseudo science right so if you're going to use that if I can get this
search warrant tossed out then that evidence that you collected from my cabin from my shed will be tossed out as
well and then you have nothing yeah and I think also some of this is maybe not so much that he goes free I'm sure he
doesn't want to be caught or be put in prison but I also wonder how much of this uh attitude that he has about
this is trying to protect his belongings and his life work for the last several years yeah well some of that is built
into this because the natural defense here would be an insanity plea or an insanity defense right and the problem
with that is well if he avoids the death penalty and says hey I'm insane and that's my defense that we put together
well then what did any of this stand for for it was supposed to be built around this whole mission this whole agenda of
him in the freedom Club mhm well what does this Mission even mean if the man who put it together and orchestrated
everything is an insane person well normally when we have these ramblings that we see from these killers later
that's what they are they're unintelligible ramblings or or rants or or however you
want to look at it and I I'm I'm not saying that you should read this Manifesto and agree with them but I but
I think what he is what he is saying is is also a little little unique and the reason why is cuz most people say look
technology is happening and you either have to jump on board or you don't and he's making he's making the statement
hey technology will happen but only if we allow it and maybe we need to pick and choose what we allow as as far as
technology goes and so to your point I think Ted kazinski is really worried the easy way
out is go hey I was insane but then this Manifesto that I worked on for years people just dismiss it as the ramblings
of somebody that's insane and they're not even going to take the time to read it yeah I would think that that was his
one of his many concerns my my own personal opinion of his Manifesto of that manuscript is
it sounds like the you said un intellectual ramblings of a of a raving madman this is the intellectual
ramblings of a Madman it's yeah I think that's a good way to put it it's there's
certainly some Brilliance there again you can tell it was written by an intelligent entity maybe I'm a little a
skew in my thoughts and in uh comprehension and perception of the document itself because I know who wrote
it where if you were looking at it blindly not knowing who or what group wrote it maybe you would think of it a
little differently but one thing that I think kind of torqued me off a lot when researching this case was
these morons online praising Ted kazinski for this manuscript and saying how brilliant the man is is and how
brilliant the manuscript is and even to the point of people going you you guys are just ignorant you
can't see it one day you'll realize he was right he was right are you freaking kidding me well no he's not again I
think a lot of those individuals have to start the conversation with forget every
action that he did and then just look at this paper as a whole I think the the paper as a whole degrades most of us as
human beings it's that's what I questioned how many of these people posting their
thoughts and opinions and and approval and Appraisal of this document actually bothered to read
it yeah but it degrades African-American people it spends a good majority of the
document talking about the overs sociable people the the left people it's grouping a whole bunch batch of people
together and then criticizing them and what in the end are we losing Ted we're losing our freedoms what are our
freedoms when you look at it we all are slaves to something at the very core of our Essence and our being we all have to
eat we all have to pay taxes these things that you might perceive us to be slaves of in the future yes I get that
that's a threat but freedom really is of course it's a physical thing but it's also it's also a state of
mind my my version of Freedom might not be the same as Ted kazinsky no I understand that but that
it's a lot easier for us as Americans to sit there and say that we are free um and you look at what's going on
in China with like the Muslims and and then basically an internment camp over there and ask them how free they are and
how free that Society is so but he's attacking my society and he's condemning my Society that's where I have a problem
you know what Ted I want the freedom to open up my mail without my hands being blown off no I understand that but I I I
think what they're I think sometimes when these authors are are saying look these are
threats and these are things that the that Society needs to wake up to and I think there's look there's a lot of
times we were talking the other day I I watched the Jake Paul fight it it was some of the lowest form of entertainment
that I've seen in my whole lifetime it was is almost embarrassing and then you start wondering is this the way Society
is going and 1.5 million views one of the highest pay-per-view buyin for any boxing event
and and so I think he I think he's questioning society as a whole and and why are people spending so much time on
their computer or spending so much time in front of their TVs when there's maybe
more important stuff to be thinking about if that makes any sense no it makes a lot of sense I think what I what
I see here Captain is it looks to me like somebody who did he he did in fact have these ideas he did in fact have
these concerns but he used them as almost a rationalization for what it probably was that he ultimately wanted
to do he wanted to punish the society that didn't accept him he wanted to harm those who did not accept him he could
not well hold on and and here's the problem too is society did not reject him he actually rejected Society correct
correct I would argue on in your defense I would argue the people that are looking at this Manifesto and saying you
have to forget about the mergers well you shouldn't you can't and and that's not that's that's not part of the
equation you know Ted kazinski likes math part of the equation is that in order to get heard you decided to attack
other people's freedoms so in a sense you're a hypocrite on top of that you didn't
write this letter you Ed technology used a typewriter it might be a a small form of a of type of
Technology but it was Tech at the time it was Tech at the time and you bought a little more than an acre and then you
started seeing real estate being developed and and you you came up with this the again to attack innocent people
that did nothing to you I i' I'd feel totally different about Ted kazinski if he attacked Henry Murray that
experimented on him for three years but what happened to the kid that had empathy for the caged animals mhm what
happened to that guy well and he chose terrorism to as a platform for his message to teach the rest of us to
educate the rest of us he was a freaking teacher at a University at a well-respected university two of them he
had a platform yeah he had a platform where he could teach everyone and you know what it makes me think of when when
he was an active teacher and all these other teachers out there and then compare compare that to the crazy man
living in a cabin out in the middle of Montana it's like Martin Luther King Jr and James Earl
Reay you had two guys that had two completely different sets of ideals they chose completely different meth methods
in the way to deliver and express their thoughts and concerns to the public yeah
and um but but here's where here's where I feel bad for Ted kazinski is because I think a lot of
times we start questioning with Ted Bundy with I mean look I mean it's you know it's 420 uh
Coline Adolf Hitler you start questioning the chicken or the egg are these people just born evil or were they
created to be evil and this is one case that I could say I lean towards the idea that Ted was
created to be evil like maybe they didn't know that that was going to be the side effect of the experiment but I
think that was the outcome of the experiment and that that's angers me because one I mean $50 million spent by
the FBI $50 million of our our taxpayer money spent to try to catch this psycho how much money have we spent on
his trials and his appeals and and his incarceration and his communication with the outside
world how much have we spent on this guy and and and he might have been created by experiments at Harvard and one thing
that's really interesting too here Captain is you have the kazinski family his mother and his brother who said yeah
at some point in his you know when he's 16 17 18 years old we started to realize
that there was something wrong with Ted however we didn't fully understand what it was we kind of just chocked it up to
oh he's an oddball he's depressed he's a genius we can't really understand him yeah some people said that Ted was like
a walking computer that that some people didn't even view him as human well he would say things that were very
uncomfortable to the people that were actually somewhat close to him as close as anybody could be to Ted kazinski a
man with very few friends if any at all but you know his brother and his mother said that he would say things that you
could tell were these were suicidal Expressions homicidal type of expressions and ultimately the Nathan R
lead that the FBI was looking for they never identified a Nathan R tied to Ted kazinski or any other real aspect of the
unibomber case itself in fact two there's two beliefs here of where that came from either that Ted kazinski
himself did that on purpose to throw them off or that it was simply something that happened in Transit before the
letter got to the FBI that somebody else wrote a note over top of this letter so
that lead really never led to anything in the end captain at trial there was a lot of weird and difficulties with his
trial itself and I don't want to go too far into it because it's it looked to me
like the court system basically wanted to say you're crazy but not crazy enough um it seemed a little weird on the whole
Insanity idea and of course as we already pointed out Ted originally did not want he was insistent that he was
not insane that what he stood for meant something what what his actions were stood for something yeah and I don't
know how he heavily involved his brother was but I I do know that there was talks
with the FBI and his brother's lawyer about what would happen to Ted so I I I want to I wonder how much he uh helped
steer The Narrative even during the trial well what he what happened was Ted was trying to dismiss his attorneys very
late in the court proceedings and the the uh judge was pretty much like no you're not going to dismiss your
attorneys this late we've been dealing with this forever right and if we throw the them out now you get a chance to
start over your whole defense which could take a year or two dealing with this now you cannot dismiss your
attorneys and so ultimately Ted kazinski ends up pleading uh giving the insanity
plea to avoid the death penalty so he ends up being he ends up receiving several life sentences to be served out
at the adx Florence which is a United States Penitentiary administrative maximum facility this is an American
federal prison in Fremont County near Florence Colorado it is operated by the Federal Bureau of Prisons so this is
different than regular prisons here Captain this is uh a division of the United States Department of Justice
operates this prison this prison opened up in 1994 and is classified as a supermax or a control unit prison this
meaning that it provides a higher more controlled level of custody than even a Maximum Security Prison and if you look
at the list of some of the other inmates that are serving their time there as well as Ted kazinski it's some of the
biggest names out there it's a lot of terrorists to be honest with you it's a lot of foreign terrorists and domestic
terrorists that have been housed in there throughout the years as well as people who have committed crimes of
Espionage well but at the end of the day no no matter how smart Ted kazinski is I
mean that's what he is is a American domestic terrorist in one of Ted's Journal passages dated sometime between
the Autumn of 1977 and early 1978 when the bombing campaign was just beginning and Ted kazinski was still an amateur
bomb Builder remember he's trying to become a better bomb maker a more deadly attacker he wrote to himself quote I
emphasize that my motivation is personal Revenge I don't pretend any kind of philosophical or moralistic
justification my ambition is to kill a scientist big businessman government official or the like I would also like
to kill a communist Ted kazinski wrote In 1980 that the bombings made him feel less angry quote since committing these
crimes reported elsewhere in my notes I feel better I am still plenty angry you have to understand the blank remember
these are coming from some coded journals you have to understand the blank is that I am now able to blank to
a degree and when his bombings were not lethal when they were when they did not kill or they did not significantly
injure the individual who opened up the bomb he said that they were not a success that that bomb was a failure he
was hoping that every bomb would blow off hands or kill the person that opened up the package the only way for his work
to be quote successful as Ted kazinski saw it was to kill the person that opened up the package in July of 1999
this is an interview article by David Bowman on salon.com the article is titled profiler and it's an interview
with John Douglas Bowman asked Douglas a followup to a follow-up question Bowman
was asking about Psycho Killer in general and then asking has there ever been this kind of killer that are a do
good killer angels of Justice Dexter types specifically have there been any environmentalist psycho Killers who kill
loggers or strip Miners and Douglas gives his answer Theodore kazinski the unibomber thought he was doing that but
when I started analyzing the case Douglas said for forget his hatred of Technology he don't give a [ __ ] he just
wants to kill he enjoys killing and wants to dominate and control there's the Oklahoma bombing that gets the front
page two or three days later we have a professor killed on the East Coast that's kazinski saying quote I'm the big
guy here who's this Oklahoma City bomber thank you friends for joining us here back in the garage for another gripping
interesting story Colonel do we have any recommended reading this week this week
we are recommending every last tie the story of the unibomber and his family by David kazinski in August 1995 David
kazinsky wife Linda asked him a very difficult question do you think your brother Ted is the unibomber he couldn't
be David thought but as the couple poured over the unibomber 78 page Manifesto David couldn't rule out the
possibility it slowly became clear to them that Ted was likely responsible for mailing the 17 bombs that killed three
people and injured many more wanting to prevent further violence David made the agonizing decision to turn his brother
in to the FBI make sure you check out every last Tie by David kazinski you can find that title and many more on our
recommended page at true Crim garage.com and until next week be good be kind and
don't [Music] litter [Music] is it possible to predict the unpredictable could surgeons use a
patient's own Anatomy to create 3D printed life-size organ models to map out challenges ahead of time making
surgery more precise efficient and less invasive is it possible it already is because every day we're doing what's
never been done learn more at mayoclinic.org soss mayoclinic you know where to go

The Unabomber /// Part 2 /// 483

Part 2 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the 1990’s the F.B.I. was hunting a serial killer they called the Unabomber. At the time he was the most wanted man in America. He some how managed to avoid detection and capture for over a decade. This week in the Garage Nic and the Captain explore and examine the case and the man who committed these terrible crimes.

Beer of the Week - Birthday Bomb by Praire Artisan AlesGarage Grade - 5 out of 5 bottle caps

Our show - True Crime Garage “Off the Record” is available only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com (https://pcm.adswizz.com) for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Brief Summary

The episode details the Unabomber case, focusing on Ted Kaczynski's bombings, investigation, and his brother's role in his capture.

Key points

Predicting the Unpredictable. Exploring the potential of using a patient's anatomy for precise surgeries.
A Deadly Pattern. A series of bomb attacks linked to a mysterious group called the Freedom Club.
The Unabomber's Manifesto. A debate ensues over whether to publish a manifesto from the Freedom Club.
Eleanor Roosevelt's Wisdom. Discussing intelligence and the nature of ideas versus events.
The Unabomber's Manifesto. A couple recognizes familiar ideas in a manifesto and connects it to Ted Kazinski.
The FBI's Challenge. The FBI faces difficulties in connecting Ted Kazinski to the bombings despite linguistic similarities.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is Bomb number 15 if you are keeping score at home.

4:47WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

More from True Crime Garage TV

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.