Fifteen: Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders | "48 Hours" Podcast (Full Series) | Forensic Files

went to their bedroom. I opened the door and I just kind of stood over their bed
watching them sleep for a few minutes. My body was trembling. I was nervous but excited and exhilarated.
I was actually going to do it. I was there. It's finally happening. >> I will never understand how he did what
he did. >> My name is Victoria Herd and Claudia was my mother. I'm her eldest daughter.
My mom was my best friend. In 1995, Claudia Mopin packed up her bags and left her home in Fairfield,
California to move 30 m northeast to Davis. In her late 50s, she was looking to start a new life. She had been single
for a while and she had decided that she was ready to settle down. When I talked
to Claudia's daughter, Victoria, she was sitting with her own daughter and they couldn't stop giggling as they recounted
the move. >> I remember very well. It was very intentional. Oh, really? Yeah. She was
ready to have a companion and she knew that she wanted somebody smart and she knew that she wanted somebody who lived
in Davis. Claudia was funloving with a boisterous laugh. She wanted to be somewhere young, progressive, and full
of life. And the city of Davis was kind of a paradise. Located in the central valley of
Northern California, it's home to the University of California, Davis. It's also rich in farmland, nature preserves,
and towering trees. There's greenery everywhere. Claudia was also drawn to the spirituality there. She had been a
spiritual traveler through many different religions and denominations and she just had fallen in love with the
Unitarian Church. So she said to me, "My husband is at the Unitarian Church." And
she was right. Only a few months later, Claudia called Victoria to tell her that
she had met someone there. His name Oliver Chip Northup. He was so smart and brilliant and they were like Kermit the
Frog and Miss Piggy meeting over the pews at the Unitarian Church. I mean, was this true love? I think it was true
friendship. I don't think it was youthful passion. Let's put it that way. I think it was the recognition of a
kindred soul. The next year, Chip and Claudia got married. The church was packed. They blended their big, loving
families in a joyous ceremony. Chip had eight children and Claudia had three. >> Two big families. What a gift. What an
absolute gift. And we were older. We were adults when they got together. So I think both families were very
appreciative that the other had come into their parents' life. Time passed and by 2013 they had been
together for 17 years. Their family had grown to include a whopping 22 grandchildren and seven great
grandchildren. Claudia was 76 and Chip 87. >> They had an idyllic life. They did what
they wanted. They had so many loved ones around them. They had so many great neighbors.
They lived in Davis. Every evening, Claudia looked forward to being home with Chip. It didn't matter
what she was doing or who she was with. >> She'd say, " 9:30, have to go home to
Chip. Our programs are on. Have to get my feet rubbed." And Chip would watch with his headphones and rub my mother's
feet every night. They adored each other in that way. They loved going to movies,
holding hands, and just being with each other, and being with each other's families.
That's exactly how they were together. On a beautiful night in April, home from a long day of activities, Claudia and
Chip left their window open as they drifted off to sleep in the cool of the evening.
Hours later, a figure appeared outside their window. >> When you think about the terror um that
these two people just asleep in their own bed where we all feel the most secure and you wake up to this horror
movie happening to you. >> I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi. I've been reporting on murder
cases for over three decades. So, you probably think that after all this time, I've seen it all. And actually, I
thought I had too until I encountered two senseless, inexplicable murders, just the torture of the bodies, the
post-mortem cutting, >> you know, putting inanimate objects in their body >> and the mastermind behind them. How does
anybody even have the strength to do that? And and why wouldn't somebody want to do that?
>> This is 15. Inside the Daniel Marsh murders, episode 1, a quiet life shattered.
Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence.
Please listen with care. My parents started the Unitarian Church here in Davis back in the 50s and it was
a very big part of my life growing up and and theirs and my father and mother continued to be active even after they
were divorced. >> This is Chip's daughter Mary Northup. When Chip met Claudia at the church he
helped start, he was actually married to his second wife, Maron, and was still on
good terms with his first wife. But Maron was now dying of cancer. He had supported her in her wish to die at
home. And it had been hard for him. Claudia had started attending church while Marlene was still alive. Um, and
so she watched my father go through this. And when Marlin died, she gave him a shoulder to cry on. I don't think her
intent was, "Oh, now I'll go grab him." As much as that she was that compassionate person and she saw this
and uh and and wanted to help him through that grieving. >> I think he was a little embarrassed
because it was barely 6 months after after his second wife had died, but we were all incredibly supportive.
Chip's son, Robert Northup, said that even though his father's relationship with Claudia moved quickly, the whole
family was on board. >> When you talk about Claudia, how would you describe Claudia?
>> An angel who walked the earth. >> Really? An angel. >> Why do you say that? Even just the sensation you could get
from a distance, just the the serenity in her face, the welcoming smile, the just putting people at at ease. Even
from, you know, 50 ft away, she could do that. >> Chip's family knew Claudia was good for
him. Chip was used to running nonstop, and Claudia reminded him to take time for the most important people in his
life. And she also often acted as sort of a a liaison ensuring that he remembered to communicate with people
and >> because I heard he worked a lot. >> Yes. Yes, he did. >> Chip had spent decades working as a
lawyer. Even after he retired, he still worked part-time as an appellet attorney
to keep his mind sharp. His daughter Mary said he was kind and dedicated to doing the right thing. Every once in a
while there was an injustice and it was important to him to make sure that when he found that he did the best he could
to get them a fair trial, to get them a fair hearing in the justice system. A lot of the times he told me, "I get one
or two years shaved off because there have been errors. That's a victory." >> Even in his late 80s, Chip stayed
incredibly active in the broader Davis community. He had been a proud member of the Rotary Club and the school board and
worked the Sunday barbecue at the county fair. He was also a founding member of a
local folk band, the PewD Creek Crawads. >> He had a beautiful voice. He really had
a beautiful voice that gave him the most joy. All my siblings, kids really loved.
Whenever Grandpa Chip came, they would say, "Sing us a song." And of course, he would carry his guitar with him. He got
to that point. >> Chip also performed music at his church, which was like a second home to both him
and now Claudia. So when they didn't show up to the service that second Sunday in April, friends and family knew
immediately that something was wrong. I can tell you what happened from my view. April 14th, uh, I was supposed to
be seeing my father at church. >> On the morning of April 14th, 2013, Chip Northup's daughter, Mary, and her
mother, Chip's first wife, Peggy, arrived at the Unitarian Church, expecting to meet Claudia and Chip,
there. He's part of this group, the musical group that they've been together since literally since the late 60s, part
of the church. And did he didn't show up and that was very unusual. It was unusual enough that my mother said to
me, you need to try to find your father. So, you know, I you know, you guys have
been divorced for 40 years. Let it go. But I it it saddened my brain. So, I went to try to call him, but our church
is sort of out in the country here and didn't get any cell reception. So, I let it go until we went home afterwards and
I called and I called his number and I called Claudia's number and they both went to voicemail.
>> How unusual is that? >> It was very unusual. Claudia always answered her phone.
>> Peggy then called her son Robert >> and I I tried to reassure her that she was overreacting, that, you know, oh,
there's all kinds of reasons he might have missed that performance. and uh I dutifully went to check, but I
everything I saw indicated they were out of town. >> It was evening when Robert rang his
father's doorbell. No one answered. He looked through the front windows and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.
>> I didn't realize they had their car locked in the garage. If they were home, the car would have normally been in the
driveway. And then there were some newspapers piled up and I thought, "Oh, that's proof that they're out of town."
Robert decided if no one was home, it wasn't worth going inside, so he left. Another hour passed, but still no one
could get in touch with Chip and Claudia. Around 7:30 p.m., Claudia's daughter Laura decided to visit the house. Like
Robert, she rang the front doorbell and again, no one answered. But Laura wasn't satisfied leaving it at
that. She walked around the back of the house. She saw a few lights on inside. And that's when she noticed that one of
the back windows wasn't just open. The screen had been meticulously cut. She stepped forward to get a closer
look. She could just barely see into Chip and Claudia's shared bedroom. But even in the dim light, she could see
something wasn't right. >> I think I think she saw blood stains, but she didn't see bodies. She saw
enough that she made a call to get other people over there. It wasn't clear to her what had happened
or whose blood it was, but it was enough to make her call 911. Several officers from the Davis Police
Department arrived at the scene. They tried to get into the house, but couldn't gain entry through the front
door. They went around to the back to look at what Laura thought she had seen through the window. As they shined their
flashlights through the screen, it became very clear that they had stumbled upon a crime scene.
Inside were two bodies completely covered in blood. Police forced their way inside. Hours later, Laura got in
touch with her sister Victoria. and I pick up my phone and there's 12 missed calls from my sister. And so that was
really strange. I called her back and she was sobbing and she said, "Something's wrong with
mom and Chip." And I said, "What? What's wrong with mom and Chip?" and she said, "Well, honey,
there's been a breakin and there are two dead bodies in the house." Victoria was in disbelief.
>> I thought somebody had broken into the house and Chip had killed them. I didn't
think I really didn't think it was Mom and Chip. And Laura didn't say that they were dead.
Laura asked Victoria to pass the phone to Victoria's partner, Casey. So, I'm starting to shake, right, and
break down. And I run to Casey and I hand her the phone. And I sat there just and I'm hearing Laura talk to Casey. And
I sat there and I feel myself like falling to the floor, but I don't know why I'm falling to the floor, but I'm
falling. And I I feel her spirit. It's almost like she's standing there and she says, "You have a choice in this moment.
You can stay on the floor or you can get up and face this with love." It was so clear. From your
mother. From my mother. And I I was then I was like got up. like her words infused me and I said, "Okay, let's go.
Let's go right now." >> Did you know at that moment? >> I just knew that something was wrong.
>> Victoria and Casey made their way from Sacramento to Chip and Claudia's house.
>> We went and made the turn onto their street and the corner's van was there. And I still didn't know. I get out of
the car and I go marching to the police officer and I said, "I'm I'm Claudia's daughter. I need to see Claudia." And he
said, "You can't go in there. That's a crime scene." And and I got angry and started pushing him and said, "I need to
see my mother. I need to see my mother. She needs me." No one would tell Victoria anything.
Instead, she was told to get into the police car and wait. >> My partner was pre-law, so she said, "Is
she under arrest?" And the officer said, "No." And then she we said, "Well, we're
not getting in the car. We'll meet you at the police station." And as we were getting into the car to go to the police
station, I saw the corners bringing out their bodies, and I still didn't know it
was them. Victoria and Casey rushed to the Davis Police Station, but still no one seemed willing to share any
information with them. So Casey began asking yes or no questions. She asked, "Is Victoria's mother dead?"
And then then they said yes. And then I lost it. My brain couldn't process that.
I was in complete shock. She said, "Was Victoria's mother shot?" An officer said
no. Was Victoria's mom strangled? The officer said no. Was Victoria's mother stabbed? And then the officer lowered
his head and I started screaming because I couldn't imagine. I couldn't imagine it. It's impossible
even now and everything we've been through and seen to imagine anybody doing that to somebody who was so kind
and so precious. Meanwhile, Chip's children still had no idea that anything was wrong. Chip's
daughter, Mary, hadn't heard anything since her brother went to check on Chip the night before.
The next morning, she turned on the TV to watch the news. >> I noticed there was this shot with
police caution tape and in from a tree to the garage and it says double homicide in Davis. And I'm like, "Wow,
that's that's unusual." So the next time it came on, I looked at it again. I said, "That that looks like where my dad
lived." So I I paused it and rewindound it and I at this point I'm calling the kids and my wife to come out and and
look and say is is that is that Grandpa Chip's place? >> She was finally able to see the number
by the door and it confirmed the unthinkable. It was Chip and Claudia's house. She
called the police to see if they could tell her what was happening. It took them about 10 minutes before they would
tell me, well, yes, that is the house where they found bodies, but they wouldn't tell me it was my father. They
wouldn't tell me anything. They said I had to come down to the police station. But at this point, I started calling my
family because I didn't know. I didn't want the rest of my family to find out this way.
>> That's a horrible way to find out. >> I I cannot I mean, I literally nearly collapsed on the floor when I realized
that it was their house, that I'm watching this on television. to start from there just made everything all of
the events that began to unfold worse and worse. It was a very very unusual homicide.
>> What do you mean? >> The victims were an elderly couple which didn't seem to make a lot of sense. It
was u it was a very brutal murder. Lieutenant Paul Durashave was one of the Davis police officers who arrived on the
scene that April day. He would later become one of the leaders in the investigation.
>> The couple was still in their bed and you know multiple cut stab type murder.
It was it was it was horrific. Much more so than let's say a bullet wound. Chip had been stabbed 61 times and
Claudia 67. It was something that uh it was up close and personal. >> The cause of death was clear, but the
how and why would take a lot more time to determine. How did the killer or killers get in?
>> Yeah, through the window. >> It didn't look like a typical burglary. There was no sign of ransacking and
nothing of value appeared to be missing. Both bodies were still in bed. No evidence that either victim tried to
escape. And there was another odd thing about the crime scene. Was there a lot of
evidence left behind by the killer? >> Not really. We were coming up pretty dry on the crime scene.
>> Any fingerprints that seem clearly connected? DNA left at the scene? No. >> Did you have the weapon?
>> We didn't have the weapon. No. >> Still, while the crime scene was unusually clean, the bodies were
anything but. Both victims had stab wounds everywhere. In their necks, the torso, the legs, and that wasn't even
the most horrifying part. >> It was a very bloody scene, >> right? And there were some strange
details too, weren't there? >> Yeah, there were um there were a couple objects inside the bodies. Um one of
them being a shot glass or glass of some sort >> put inside the body >> and a cell phone in the other. Right.
>> Right. >> I mean, who does something like this? >> Like I said, we we didn't know. The
first thing we thought is perhaps looking at people they know that are connected especially strongly connected
to the victims where there would be feelings involved. >> I mean it sounds like a lot of anger
toward these people. >> Sounded like it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. >> Police believe that whoever attacked
Chip and Claudia may have had a personal vendetta. >> I think even one theory was because he
was a defense attorney. um perhaps someone who was in his life as a client that you know felt like they were
wronged and he didn't do a good enough job fighting for them. Um so we were kind of looking at everything
>> but neither Chip nor Claudia had any obvious enemies in town. >> No, you know, everybody liked them. They
were involved in music. They were involved with a lot of people in the community and we were just coming up
with everybody who who really liked them. The police department had to start piecing together a story based on
statistics and crimes they had dealt with previously. They had to ask, "Was one of the victims having an affair?
Could they have had a falling out with a close friend or family member?" >> Usually to us when it's that violent, um
there's anger behind it, some type of feeling. Uh you'll see it with domestic violence, family related murders, things
like that. But usually we felt like, okay, maybe there's a connection between the suspect and and and the victims.
Here, >> with little to no evidence to lead them, the police started their investigation
by looking close to home. Very close to home. >> I understand that they had few options.
They had very, very little in the way of good evidence to work with. So, they had
to make the best they could with very few clues. Chip's son, Robert, was one of the first people they talked to
>> at that point. Then those clues pointed us. We we lived in the same town, not
very far away that we would have had with certainly no motive, but easily had the opportunity.
>> Coming up on the next episode of 15, inside the Daniel Marsh murders. And what did they think when they heard
you had just cleaned the carpet? It looked like I was covering up, removing evidence.
This series was reported by me, Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora Walls is our story editor. And Jamie
Benson is the senior producer. Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS.
Special thanks to 48 hours executive producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie
Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo. This podcast was written and produced by
Carara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan Nadulski, and Ian Enright.
Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian
Enright. Original theme in music by Hans Del Shei with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell.
Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying
this show, be sure to give it a rating and review. It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15
inside the Daniel Marsh murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by searching 48 hours on your favorite
podcast app. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains
references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. >> We lost our matriarch.
I lost the love of my life. When Victoria Herd found out her beloved mother Claudia and stepfather Chip had
been killed, her whole world fell apart. She was my world. She was she was the past and the future and that's changed
now. >> She couldn't imagine someone stabbing Chip and Claudia dozens of times. But
even when Victoria and her daughter Sarah arrived at the funeral home, they had no idea just how brutal the murders
actually were. So, as they planned the burial, Sarah and Victoria asked to see Claudia's body.
>> And we were very persistent about wanting to see her. Really just having a clarification like that that is my
grandmother that died. It's my mom that died. >> I need to know that. I don't want to
just believe it because somebody told me, >> right? >> And we went to the funeral home and the
the woman there, she was like, "You you can't see her." >> No one at the funeral home would explain
why they couldn't see Claudia, who Sarah affectionately called Granza. and the woman at the funeral home told
us that they needed at least 24 hours before we could see Granza. >> So they waited the 24 hours and then
finally were brought into the room with Claudia's body. >> They called in a specialist from UC
Davis. I found all out all this after the fact to do a reconstruction on my mother and
she was beautiful when we saw her. >> Yes, >> she looked like herself. >> It would be more than a year before they
learned the full truth that Chip and Claudia had been stabbed a combined 128 times.
>> To this day, I am amazed. Yeah. >> You know, what I know now, it's >> she she looked like the grand I knew she
did. >> I mean, >> she did. They washed her hair. The makeup artist did amazing.
>> Amazing. >> Her little hands, her little feet, you know. >> Victoria remembered that her mother
Claudia had always said she didn't want a viewing when she died. But I felt at the time that we as a family under the
circumstances needed to have that moment of closure with her. So it was closed to
the public. But it was just our family >> and it was just a few of us. >> It was just a few of us chose to say
goodbye that way. But I I am grateful to that woman. They said they stayed up all night and put her back together.
Roughly two weeks after that small private viewing, the family held a memorial service to celebrate Chip and
Claudia's lives at the Unitarian Universalist Church. But even as the grieving family members
were saying last goodbyes, they were also contending with another problem. Police were beginning to suspect that
one of them might be the killer. We would try and question them. We'd try and get information, but they were very
tight lipped. They weren't saying anything. But they were looking at members of your own family.
>> Yeah, they were. >> I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi. This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh
murders. Episode two, unanswered questions. >> Normally, if you have a crime that's
committed with that much passion and anger, a lot of times it it it just happens. It's a crime of opportunity um
or an escalating argument maybe. Uh so, you know, in this case, we just we weren't finding much.
Davis police Lieutenant Paul Durishev was assigned early on to the murder investigation of Claudia Mopin and Chip
Northup. It was an all hands on deck situation. The department only had about 100
employees total and this was the first murder case the city of Davis had in nearly 2 years.
What impact did it have on the officers, you and everyone else investigating? I heard it was it it had an impact that
there were officers who really even had to talk about it because it was such a horrific scene.
>> Yeah. I don't And it's not just the scene. I think it's the scene plus the loss when you're dealing with the family
that you could never replace that loss. and um I think a lot of frustration because we weren't solving it right
away. You know, a lot of homicides we clear fairly quickly. >> So I assume then if if you see you see a
scene that appears to be driven by rage, you look at members of the family >> or people close to um the victim in any
way, shape, or form. In most murder cases, officials start their investigation with people close to
the victims, not necessarily as suspects, although it's a fact that most victims are killed by people they know.
But in this case, police were trying to create a complete picture of the situation.
They talked to all of Chip and Claudia's family members who lived in Davis. One was Chip's daughter, Mary Northup. Mary
was as perplexed by the murders as the police were. >> Well, first you need to understand that
I didn't know how gruesome the murder was. >> So, the police didn't tell you. >> They told me they were stabbed. I got
the death certificate where it said multiple stabbed death within minutes. So, I knew that it wasn't good or easy.
Even though Chip and Claudia's window screen had been cut, police told Mary they thought the killer had a different
point of entry. >> I said, "So, had they left the slider open? Is that what the problem? Is that
how he got in?" And the police said, "No, all the doors were locked from the inside. So, we think it was somebody
with a key." And I was like, "No, I had a key to their place." But just since I lived in Davis, it was
convenient if they didn't if they lost their keys, Mary could come let them in. >> Mary thought the police had a theory
that a person with a key cut a hole in the window screen to make it look like a breakin.
>> If you come up with that theory, then you have to look at family members or close friends that they might have
shared a key with, right? I was very worried that they were going to just make an arrest of someone in the family
because believe me, this was the talk of the town. You know, I would go to the store
and people could come up to me and they would be crying and saying, "We're not safe anymore." You know, so I know there
felt an urgent need to do something to try to solve this. My name's Robert Northup and Chip
Northup was my father and I also knew Claudia very well and we all lived we all lived together in the same town so I
was close to both of them. >> Mary's brother Robert also lived in Davis with his adult son Tony. Tony's
brother Oliver lived nearby. At the time of the murders, Tony was 28 and Oliver was just a year older. I spoke to Robert
and Oliver 5 years after that in 2018. The two sat next to each other, shouldertosh shoulder. They were both
softspoken and a bit hesitant in their answers. They looked somber and stoic. Oliver spoke gently about his
relationship with his grandfather, the man he was actually named after. >> Yeah, I was named after him. My mom
chose that name. He was my grandfather and uh is he is probably the best grandfather I could have had.
Oliver and his brother Tony spent a lot of time with their grandfather going on camping trips, eating dinner, and they
grew close with Claudia after she joined their family. >> Oh, she's very, very loving towards me
and very caring, and she treated me very nicely. I guess not necessarily like a stepg grandmother,
more like her own grandson. And then some. >> Oliver's dad, Robert, had been the first
one to check on Chip and Claudia's house when they didn't show up to church. He only found out what really happened
after receiving a call the morning after the murders. >> But so I just I had just gotten the news
and I came back and I told Oliver and he and I were both in the kitchen. We just
started sobbing for a moment. >> What did you think? >> You know, at at my initial reaction, I
didn't even go that far with it. I was just in disbelief that it you know, like this can't be right. This is somebody's
somebody's got their facts wrong. This can't this can't be what really happened cuz cuz nobody would have done such a
thing. >> Robert remembered that soon after hearing the news, he and his sons were
called into the police station. At first, Robert understood that this was all part of the usual procedure.
>> I well, I wasn't surprised at all that it began. You know, I thought, okay, yeah, that makes sense. They have to
look at every possibility. And I kept thinking, well, my father would would want us to cooperate in every way. And,
you know, the sooner they the sooner they realize it wasn't us, the sooner they can start looking in the right
places. >> They wanted to be as helpful as possible. >> That first day, it was about 8 hours of
questioning. and the next day was another six. It was just day after day, long hours of questioning.
>> Mhm. >> But then, in addition to interrogating the family at length, Davis police began
to scour Robert's home and belongings for evidence. There they found something that made them suspicious.
>> Now, it didn't help, did it, that you had just had the carpet cleaned. So much was made of that. Not just had I
just I just rented the carpet cleaner and uh yeah, it was bad timing. I didn't I didn't
anticipate that that would be the same weekend my father got murdered. >> And what did they think when they heard
you had just cleaned the carpet? >> It looked like I was covering up removing evidence.
>> Officers were having a hard time finding any evidence connected to the crime. So,
a newly cleaned carpet. That looked like one of their best clues. If Robert had committed the crime, police thought they
might find blood in that carpet. Maybe it had seeped into the floor below. Or maybe they'd find evidence that someone
had tried to flush down the toilet. >> And I mean, the search, just tell me what the search did to your house.
Well, they did find some blood stains and then they cut out the carpet. They took out some of the plumbing fixtures
looking for things that might have been put in the drain. Um, and in the course of moving things around, they well, they
did some damage and they also took out a little bit of flooring. >> Investigators thought they had really
found something until the blood turned out to be Robert's son Tony's blood. Robert kept cooperating, hoping the
police would finally be satisfied and leave them alone. But the suspicion and the questions seemed endless.
>> You said that you would you would have expected that they look at your family
for 24 hours, but it went longer. How much longer did it go? >> 6 weeks. Seven. >> It wasn't just Robert who was under
suspicion. Police had their eyes on his two sons, Tony and Oliver. >> Here you had just lost your grandparents
and all of a sudden the police are questioning you. How tough was that? >> It wasn't a good experience.
>> That's Oliver who went through hours of interrogation. Now, at one point they did I think there
was like a a good cop bad cop routine or something, but I had volunteered. I agreed to to help him out with the
investigation. >> Oliver had been diagnosed with schizophrenia. His brother Tony was a year younger.
Tony had volunteered for the US Army and even served in the California Conservation Corps for a year. But Tony
may have had his own struggles. Investigators had found a disturbing drawing, an image of a man with a knife
standing over two children in a bed. It had been drawn by Tony. Investigators zeroed in on the two
brothers, but there was still no physical evidence connecting them to the murders, only circumstantial
theories. Were you worried that as time went on and they didn't have any evidence and they
didn't have any suspects that they might arrest one of your sons? >> I was I was worried that possibly
one of my sons could be arrested. I didn't think there was the slightest chance that he could ever be charged or
indicted or certainly not convicted. Other members of my family became so concerned that they uh kind of insisted
on getting a criminal defense attorney for my younger son. This was weeks into the investigation after well we've
already voluntarily cooperated with dozens I'm I'm not exaggerating dozens of hours of questioning.
>> Oliver told me that the pressure on him and his brother wore them down. >> Were you scared?
>> Very nervous. >> What was your fear? What was your fear at that point? I was tired of it and I
didn't want to be blamed for something I didn't do. This horrifying. >> And his father, Robert, shared those
same fears. >> I mostly fear that the suspicion would have never gone away. The case would
have never been closed and and we would have remained just the only the only real suspects. I mean, was
there Did you feel that other people in the community were wondering about your family? Did you feel it, Oliver? Did you
feel like >> I was worried that people might have had the wrong idea about me? >> And what's that feel like?
>> Alone. The Northups began to feel they had to prove their innocence, not only to the
police, but to everyone around them in the Davis community. Our neighbors saw a dozen unformed
officers go in and do an 8-hour search and and they knew that they knew what it was related to and well, they must be
suspects in this murder. >> According to Robert, the investigation ended up costing his family tens of
thousands of dollars. They had to replace the carpet, plumbing fixtures, and the flooring that was
pulled up and taken as evidence. They lost work opportunities when their computers were seized.
Insurance covered some of the costs, but not all. And it certainly didn't touch the emotional damages they suffered.
>> You kind of laugh about it now >> kind of. But what was that really like to go through?
a nightmare. >> Through it all, however, the family's faith in Oliver and Tony's innocence
never wavered. >> The only thing I can say is that they were the three of them. They're not
violent. None of them. >> To Mary, the police had it all wrong. There was no chance Robert or his sons
would kill Chip and Claudia. >> My father was always providing emotional support for all three of them. He's the
last person they would have tried to kill. >> Do you think that the police were listening to other members of the family
saying that when you told them that when there's no way it could >> there? They obviously didn't listen to
me. Uh because I told them there isn't anybody in the family that would have done this. There was nothing that would
have warranted murder. There just wasn't. I was very angry because they took the
members of the family that needed more emotional support. They put them under a great deal of pressure.
>> Mary broke it down plain and simple. I don't mean to sound flippant, but my father was 87. But honestly, why wait
and kill him at 87 if he's just a, you know, five years or so away from death anyway? You waited this long, wait a
little longer if it were a family member. I'm just speaking logically. It made no sense that at this point in time
a family member would kill him. There wasn't any money involved. There wasn't anything that my father would have given
to that day that he wouldn't still have later. And the longer the investigation went on without any arrests, the more
uneasy the family became. >> And it did create problems within the family. And you know, I not I don't know how
much it was just the investigation. It the difficulty of living in the town, waking up every day wondering, you know,
what's going to happen today? Is everybody still alive? that kind of a thing. >> What a horrible thing to go through.
>> I don't think we have a a vocabulary that can really describe it. >> I think in this case, we were just sort
of stumped and because how weird the murder scene was. Lieutenant Paul Durashave and the rest of the Davis
police had spent weeks investigating the case, but they had found nothing but weak circumstantial evidence and
theories that weren't panning out. Maybe the family wasn't involved after all. I think we all thought there was a
possibility it was some kind of throw kill and there's this u suspect out there. it's not connected to the
victims, which was probably our worst fear because at that point, you know, how do you keep people safe if someone
out there is like that? >> So, they decided to call in a specialized FBI team. >> A crime such as this, that's more of an
interior motive where this person has a fantasy. That's the one that the profilers really
can sink their teeth into. FBI special agent Chris Campion led the National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime
in Sacramento. >> The way I like to explain it to people is if you ever watch the TV shows where
the profilers from Quantico get off the plane and meet the agent in the field, that's me.
>> Special Agent Campion's team was 25 agents in total. They specialize in analysis of violent crimes and
behavioral aspects of criminal investigations. I would do the prep work. I would screen
the cases. If we can help with the police or sheriff's departments that are uh asking us for help, then we'll help
them. But when it gets time for the profilers to be involved, then we would be the ones that would help package the
case up and present it to the profilers in Quanico. Through his experience, Special Asia Campion knew what details
were important to share and showcase. >> Some of the really kind of outlandish factors here is the post-mortem cutting.
You don't see that a lot after the victim's already dead for them to be the offender to be cutting and experimenting
apparently with the uh the dead body. And then the placement of the objects he placed, I think it was a phone um inside
the the wife and then glass inside the husband. That's weird. >> I mean, had you ever run into anything
like that before? >> We had not run into that. >> With Campion's expertise, the FBI
started building out a profile as fast as they could with a few facts they had been given.
We thought we were looking for somebody who was probably between 20 and 30, probably a white male, probably lived
close by or had some kind of reason to be in the neighborhood. And we thought that this person would have had some
precursor crimes that he would have had prior assault or even, you know, at least a burglary or maybe even something
much more minor like a peeping, you know, or some kind of a trespass case. What were the factors that made you
think it would be someone between 20 and 30, white male with a criminal history?
>> The profilers back at Quantico see thousands and thousands of cases. They've interviewed offenders in prison.
They have data um sets that um they coalate and it's not an exact science. I mean, we're talking about probabilities
here. Even after bringing in a special team, investigators were still unable to pin
down a primary suspect. In the end, it wasn't the profile they had developed, but a surprise tip that pointed them in
the direction they needed to go. >> Davis, place emergency. >> Uh, can this be anonymous?
Two months after Chip Northup and Claudia Mopin were murdered, the Davis Police Department got a 911 call.
>> What are you reporting? >> Double homicide. Um, the double homicide that happened in April this year.
>> You have like the suspect information? >> Yes, I have. I know him. I know every He
tells me everything that happened, everything he did, like all the little details.
That's next time on 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. This series was reported by me, Aaron
Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer, Mora Walls is our story editor, and Jamie Benson is the senior producer. Megan
Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo.
This podcast was written and produced by Cara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan
Nadulski, and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Carara Schillin. Our executive producers
at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian Enright. Original theme in music by Hans
Delshi with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our
production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating
and review. It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15
Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by searching 48 hours on your favorite
podcast app. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains
references to graphic physical violence and suicide. Please listen with care. >> Hi, this is Corpal Allen.
>> Hello, >> this is Corporal Allen. Who am I speaking with? >> Uh, I want to remain anonymous. Is that
okay? >> For 2 months, police have relentlessly searched for the killer of Chip Northup
and Claudia Mopin. Officers had interviewed the family and people who knew the couple. They'd set up a hotline
to receive tips, but nothing had panned out. And then late on the evening of June 15th, 2013,
911 Dispatch received an anonymous call. They transferred it to the Davis Police
Department. >> Okay. Uh, what are you calling to report, sir? >> Um, the double homicide that happened in
April this year. To determine if the caller was a crank or not, Corporal Scott Allen asked the
person to share details about the crime. And then he introduced the caller to Corporal Kirth Breznik, who knew more
about the continuing murder investigation. >> Would you mind kind of giving me the
details of of the information that you have? >> Yeah. Um, the person who did it, he told me
everything. He told me everything he did step by step. >> The caller clearly knew a lot about the
murders and had information that the police hadn't shared with the public or even the victim's family.
He told me he stabbed her in like the stomach area like 20 to 40 times. He was telling me he was just going at it and
um well he said he he did that and she was screaming. For weeks the authorities have been
looking at friends, family, anyone who had crossed paths with Claudia and Chip trying to piece together who might have
brutally murdered this beloved couple. >> Uh I grew up with this person >> here in Davis.
>> Yes. And I've known him I knew him better than anyone else. >> But what this caller revealed was beyond
anything they had imagined. The person the anonymous caller knew better than anyone else. Was named
Daniel Marsh. He was 15 years old. >> He's a I think the word is psychotic. Basically, he's the kind of person that
likes to see something hurt. >> I'm 48 Hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and this is 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh
Murders, episode 3, A Strange Tip. After spending hours on the phone with police, the clearly nervous anonymous
caller finally agreed to come down to the police station to talk in person. >> Can I get some water?
>> Uh, yes, please. I need some water. Water. >> The teenage tipster was Alvaro Garbe. He
arrived at the station early the following morning. there. Police led him into a small room and offered to grab
him some snacks. Alvaro was skinny with long black hair that was pulled up into a ponytail. He
wore dark frame glasses. A camera in the room captured Alvaro as he nervously rubbed his hands together and tapped on
the table next to him until the officers came back into the room. >> How old are you? I'm 17.
>> 17. >> Okay. Um, since we just met, do you mind if uh you spell me your name again?
>> A L V A R O. >> At first, investigators weren't sure what to make of Alvaro's phoned in tip.
Given his intimate knowledge of the crime, they had to consider the possibility that he himself could have
been involved. So they read him his rights. >> So um you had the right to make your
time. Anything you say can will be used against you in court of law. You understand?
>> Yeah. >> Can't write your attorney um before and during questioning if you can't
affordable will be afforded to you. No cost. Do you understand that? >> Okay. >> Well, I don't really but I've heard that
tons of times on TV. >> I later sat down with Alvaro Garab in 2018. 5 years after Chip and Claudia were
killed, Alva was then 22 years old with a full beard. They thought you were involved.
>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, I I mean, I retrospect, I totally get it. I mean, I'm like some random kid saying that
this person committed a crime. I'm like, you know, kind of freaked out at the time.
>> The story that he had shared with the police still haunted him. the story of his once close friendship with a teenage
boy named Daniel Marsh. When I first met him, he was very shy and very quiet. >> Avaro met Daniel in seventh grade at
Holmes Junior High School. Both of them were lonely, self-described outcasts who
bonded over their mutual love of the heavy metal band Disturbed. Like we just hung out a lot.
>> What would you do when you'd hang out? >> Just like play video games and then just
like watch music videos and go on YouTube. Like watch like the dumbest YouTube videos ever. And we just sit
there and laugh for like hours, you know, like those like like like can't breathe kind of laughing.
>> Alo said that he and Daniel became fast friends, almost family. Daniel would talk to him about his rocky
home life. When Daniel was 10 years old, his parents separated and his mother had
an affair with a woman. When his parents divorced shortly after, Daniel said he felt abandoned. Alvaro told me that the
situation infuriated Daniel, who over time directed his anger at the woman that his mother was involved with. He
hated her like abs. Like cuz he would tell me that I know this woman was involved in my parents' divorce and I
just want to like strangle her to death. I remember him saying that to me. >> Did you think he was serious when he
talked about wanting to kill her? >> No. I mean, I knew Okay. Well, I kind of empathize cuz I'm like, "Okay, I guess
if this one, if there's a person, an individual that was was responsible for my parents' divorce, I would hate them,
too." You know, >> but enough to kill them. >> No. No. Well, he didn't kill her, but
you know. >> No, but he talked about it. >> Talked about it. Yeah. >> The conversations disturbed Alvaro, but
he remained close with Daniel. In high school, they smoked marijuana together, played guitar, and watched YouTube
videos. But eventually, Alvaro said Daniel started spending hours watching very disturbing content, videos of
torture and beheadings. As I warned you earlier, what you're about to hear is disturbing.
There was this one torture video that really like hit me that made me feel like more more uncomfortable and more
unsettled, which was a a video of this person um uh drowning somebody. They have like a video of somebody like, you
know, like a scarf on their face and just like putting them under a tub and just drowning them.
>> Alvaro was upset by what he saw, but he said that Daniel seemed to enjoy the videos.
He just sat there, you know, just kind of like, whoa, what's going on? I think like fascinated by it.
When we spoke, Alvaro explained that he thought Daniel's interest in violence and hurting people was just a way to
destress, not something he'd try to replicate. >> That's how I took it. I never thought in
reality this person was actually going to go do something about it. You know, after Daniel's parents divorced, things
became even more tense between Daniel, his parents, and his mother's new partner. According to Alvaro, Daniel,
then 14 years old, became fixated with his weight. How thin did he get? I mean, was it
really a problem? >> He got really thin. I think I have a couple photos of him and I hanging out,
and he looks like like bones. >> Daniel would starve himself for extended periods of time, and he regularly talked
about death. And was he taking medications? He was taking anti-depressants. >> Did he talk about what was going on in
his head and his thoughts? >> He would tell me a lot about suicide. >> Daniel was sent to various therapists
according to Alvaro and doctors tried to deal with his behavioral and health issues.
In 2012, Daniel told a school guidance counselor that he fantasized about killing people. The counselor called
police who hospitalized Daniel because of the danger he posed to himself and others.
When Daniel would go through these depressive episodes, writing became an outlet for him.
>> And he was like, "Yeah, I've been doing a lot of writing lately." And I was like, "Oh, cool. What are you writing?"
I was like, "Uh, just stuff." And I was like, "Oh, okay." Like lyrics. And I was
like, "Nope." I was like, "Oh, okay." The police had shared with me pages copied from Daniel's personal journal
from this time period, and I showed them to Alvaro. >> You want me to go through this? Cuz it's
crazy stuff. >> I know. Well, tell me why you say it's crazy stuff. >> Cuz it's like it's just just random
streams of consciousness. What the hell is this? >> Hard to read at all. That looks like
someone with a gun. >> Yeah. >> In his mouth. >> I pulled out one page that Alvaro had
already seen. Daniel himself had shown it to him. The page was covered with drawings of skulls mixed with references
to serial killers Ted Bundy and Jeffrey Dmer and song lyrics about sex and murder.
>> This is kind of scary when you look at it. it. >> Oh my gosh. Like, you don't even Okay,
so when I first saw this, I didn't think too much about it. Now I'm like 22 looking at this. It blows my mind that I
like didn't even like think about what like could happen. >> Another page was covered in exploives.
>> There's one that's uh like kill Daniel seemed able to keep much of that anger bottled inside.
In high school, he and Alvaro dated girls, and they all started hanging out together as a group.
But then over time, Daniel's girlfriend also observed troubling behavior. She called Alvaro.
I remember her just being like kind of panicky and just very like I don't think Dan's okay, you know? Like I I think
he's like messed up or like he's got like something going on where he's like he just like snapped at me.
Some of Daniel's journal entries involved his girlfriend. And these ones didn't just talk vaguely about murder.
They showed just how seriously Daniel was thinking about killing. Okay. Wow. >> What is that?
>> This is him planning to kill uh her ex-boyfriend. He keeps keeps writing, "I am ready."
In his original interview with police, Alvaro described the weekend of April 13th, 2013.
It was the weekend of Alvaro's 17th birthday, the same weekend that Chip and Claudia were murdered.
Alvaro spent the time playing video games. He went to Guitar Center with his family. His friend Daniel didn't join
him, but he did invite Alvaro to hang out that Sunday to talk about something important.
M >> he said, "I want to tell you something important." >> Yeah. And he told me he had a he had an
interesting night and he wanted to talk about it. >> Avoid Daniel wanted to tell him about
the interesting night he had had hours earlier. >> Like he started off by like telling me
that he killed two people and then they told him, "I don't want to hear about it. I want to know about it."
According to Alvaro, Daniel said he killed two people. Alvaro didn't know what to make of what Daniel just told
him, and he didn't want to hear anymore, so he left. But Alvaro told me that the
next day, Daniel still wanted to talk to him. And then on Monday, uh, I go to school, I go to lunch, and
I, uh, sit down with my friend group, Dan comes up to me, walks up to me, and he like, he's like, "Hey man, I need to
talk to you." I'm like, "Oh, okay. What about?" And I was like, "Just just come with me." And then like brings me up to
the side by a locker room, and he's like, "Hey, man. I made the news." And I'm like, "Okay, what do you mean by
that?" You know, like, "What do you mean you made the news?" Oh, okay. Well, I'll
just talk to you about it later. Later on in social studies class, someone told Alvaro about a story they
had read in the newspaper. It was about a double homicide that had taken place over the weekend.
>> And I was like, "Oh, snap. All right." And then that's where everything kind of
just like turns into a movie. Alvaro began connecting the dots. Later, he received a text from Daniel to come
over to his house. And then when I go to his room, like, you know, like I just walk in, he's
sitting on on the on his um, you know, rolling chair, you know, by his computer, and I sit on the side of his
bed and then he starts telling me like, you know, he's like, "So, uh, I actually
did it." And then I I don't like talking about this too much. >> I know, but tell me what you can just
describe what he told you. He had >> So when uh he gave me basically I'd say like a
rundown of what he did. And this is what Daniel told him. That on Saturday, instead of attending
Alvaro's birthday celebrations, Daniel had put on all black clothing and a ski mask over his face. He told Alvaro
that he had grabbed his mother's 6-in hunting knife and then left his home in the darkness of the night.
>> You showed me the knife, the weapon. Um, uh, >> his shoes. >> Yeah, his shoes.
>> Daniel had thought of everything, Alvaro said, even wrapping the bottom of his
boots in duct tape so he wouldn't leave any footprints. In his rundown, he told me how he broke
into the house and then the entire act of uh, of killing those two people, like step by step, like every move.
>> Did it seem real at that point? No, no. Everything just didn't make any sense.
>> And why did he do this? Why did he tell you he was doing this? I >> I I have no idea. I honestly I think
about that a lot. >> Did he seem proud of what he had done? >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. He seemed very like
content and, you know, took a lot of I mean, it sounded like he took a lot of pleasure out of it. Did you get the
impression he was kind of bragging to you about what he had just done? >> Yeah, he was chuckling. He was laughing
about, you know, putting in objects in their body. >> The details were so upsetting to Alvaro,
so difficult to absorb, he didn't know how to respond to Daniel's story. >> I felt like throwing up, felt like
I couldn't feel anything. Felt very numb. And I just walked out. My head's just running, spinning, and then I'm
like looking at the door and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, like I need to get out of here." And like I I had this feeling
that the police were going to break in here and like I need like shaking. Alvaro had told me that he was shaking
and he felt like throwing up after hearing Daniel confess to the crimes. But still, Alvo didn't immediately go to
the police. >> You knew he had just killed two people. Why didn't you tell >> anybody?
>> I I don't know. >> But you knew he might hurt somebody else. >> It was just like one of those things
that you just kind of I just wasn't facing it. >> So, help me understand why not.
The two of you know, both of you, you both know. >> Well, okay, you're in high school.
How do you How do you approach this? >> You call the boys. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, that's obviously
that's easier said than done. I'm like freaking out about what's going to happen. What if I call the police? How's
that how's this going to affect me? Is this going to follow me all my whole life? You know, is there any way I can
do this anonymous? After Daniel told Alvaro about the murders, Alvaro was too scared to go to
the police. But the one thing he did do was cut off all contact with Daniel. That's when I des like stopped talking
to him, stopped texting him. I told him I needed space. Hey man, like hey, I just like I need a moment, man. like I I
can't just, you know, I didn't I tried my best to not let him feel like I was downing or like, you know, making him
feel like you're unfriending him. Try my best. I was just like, "Hey, man, like I
just need space." You know, like I didn't tell him why. >> He didn't want to call the police at
first. Instead, Alvaro said he reached out to Daniel's father, Bill. And you know, I text him. I was like,
"Hey, man. Daniel was involved with that with the the the double homicide. Uh, I
don't know what to do. I'm thinking about calling the police." Something along the lines of that.
Bill and Alvaro's accounts of this differ. But according to Alvaro, Bill was stunned by the accusation and
refused to believe that Daniel could have committed such a crime. And so Dan's dad said, "You're
overreacted. He wouldn't do this. >> Yeah. >> He didn't believe you. >> I mean, it's his son and it's just like,
"No, of course he didn't believe me, you know." >> So, Alvaro kept his mouth shut and tried
to go on with his life while police began investigating the murders. But a few weeks later, Daniel approached
him at school. >> He came up to me and he was like, "Dude, like what what are you doing?" Like, you
know, like how come you're not talking to me? like why are you and I told him I I just I remember having just like this
like public you know just hey man I I don't want to be your friend you know like don't talk to me and then you know
he just like starts yelling at me and I'm like yeah whatever and I just like walk out of the school
at that point Alvaro had become scared of Daniel fearful to be around him knew that Daniel regularly carried a knife
around so he told a guidance counselor that Daniel had one at school. Alvaro said that got Daniel expelled.
Afterwards, Daniel wasn't supposed to return to the campus, but he did. And while there, he approached Alvaro again.
And he's just like uh threatened to like attack me if I don't like, you know, talk to him. He wants to
know what's going on. Why is he why am I not speaking to him? You know, uh, that's basically it. And I just kind of
like freaked out and like ran. >> Soon after, Alvaro was on the phone with Daniel's girlfriend and suddenly she
started panicking >> and she's like, "Hey, uh, I think I think someone's in my house." You know,
cuz she hears noises in the backyard and, uh, and she's like, "I got to go." And she hangs up, right? She texted me,
"Dan, uh, Dan just broke into my house." I'm like, "How do you get in?" I'm like,
"Through the doggy door." And I'm like, "Whoa, okay." Uh, I'm like freaking out now. I'm like panting in my room. I'm
like, "I got to do something. I got to," you know? I'm like, "Uh, what am I going
to do? What am I going to do?" And that's when Alvaro grabbed a phone, called 911,
and became that anonymous caller that you heard at the top of the episode. Over the course of several more phone
calls, he was eventually connected with corporals Scott Allen and Kirth Breznik.
Alvaro didn't want to give them his name, but eventually he became more comfortable and started calling Corporal
Breznik KB. Officer KB, she's very nice. She was like, "Okay, well, in order for me to
follow up with you, I need you to actually give me your name." And I'm like, "Okay, all right. I'm going to
come over to your house and we're going to talk about this." And I'm like, it's like it's like 2:00 in the morning. I'm
like, "Okay, gotcha." And like she comes over and we have a chat and then she takes me to the uh police department.
Alvaro spent hours with police in that interrogation room. He told them about what Daniel had confessed to him about
his actions on the weekend of April 13th. He told me he got a Yeah. He got duct tape to put under his shoe. So then you
guys wanted to like find his footprints or shoe prints or something like that. Mhm.
>> He went there. Uh he uh he went to the back of the house. >> It was the first real break in the case.
Investigators had closely guarded the details of Chip and Claudia's murders. And now inside that interrogation room,
Alvaro was sharing gruesome details from the crime scene. You cut both of them open
just to see the insides or something. >> Alvaro had told the investigators everything he knew. The police were
going to allow him to go home, but first they wanted to try something. They asked
Alvaro if he could call Daniel and ask him about the murders while police recorded the call.
>> Going back to uh a possible phone call or talking to Daniel. >> Yeah, I can do that.
>> Alvaro tried contacting Daniel, but Daniel didn't answer any calls or texts. And that's when investigators decided it
was time to bring Daniel Marsh in for questioning. >> That that you were there that you did
those murders. >> Me? That's ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? I'm a kid. Coming up next on 15. Inside the Daniel
Marsh murders. This series was reported by me, Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora
Walls is our story editor. and Jamie Benson is a senior producer. Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast
editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 hours executive producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48
hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo. This podcast was written and produced by
Cara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan Nadulski, and Ian Enright.
Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian
Enright. Original theme in music by Hans Delshi with additional music from Paramount.
Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron
Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating and review. It helps more people find it and hear
our reporting. If you liked 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by
searching 48 hours on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, just a trigger warning.
The following episode does include mentions of graphic physical violence and suicide. So, please listen with
care. >> Okay. So, uh I go ahead and please form it. Okay. So, I have to read this stuff to you. Okay.
You understand? Yeah. All right. >> On June 17th, 2013, almost 2 months after Chip Northup and
Claudia Mopin were found dead inside the safety of their bedroom. Investigators asked the police officer who worked at
Daniel Marsh's school to bring the teenager into the station. >> Uh, you have the right to remain silent.
Do you understand? >> Yes. Anything you say maybe is against you in court. You understand? Yep.
>> Daniel would be questioned alone even though he had just turned 16. California
law states that minors can be questioned without parents present if law enforcement has reasonable belief that
they were involved in a crime. At no point did Daniel request his parents' presence. When the officer read
him his Miranda rights, Daniel waved his right to an attorney. And then Detective Ariel Panetta began
the interview. >> Hey, I'll sit right here. Okay, I'll sit right here for you. >> Uh, I'm all right. You good?
>> Daniel was a little scruffy with long blond hair, thin and wiry. He looked like a regular teenager. A little
jittery and awkward. >> And student? >> Yeah. At high school. >> What uh year are you? Um I'm going into
my junior year. >> Officer Panetta told Daniel why they had asked him to come to the station. You
may notice, but we have an investigation going on in Davis in regards to some murders and we have some information um
indicated. You may you may know about it or you have some information as well. Um
so that's why I'm here to ask you about that. Okay. So, >> but instead of questioning Daniel about
the murders, Detective Panetta started with the basics. School, friends, family. Daniel told the detective that
his life was stressful. >> How have you um been able to deal with some of that stress?
>> Uh honestly, I smoke pot. >> Okay. Like I don't do it for any other reason than
to deal with my depression and my anxiety and all the that happens. It's just kind of,
you know, a little bit of a relief temporarily. like for a little bit I can just relax.
I can just everything's all right right now. You know, >> it was actually Daniel who first brought
up Chip and Claudia. He was telling Detective Panetta about his parents' divorce.
>> So you dad moved down South Davis. He said apartment. >> Uh yeah, it was an apartment.
>> Okay. Mhm. What was that of? I I don't remember. Um I know that it was like I think there
were neighbors with the people who got killed. >> Okay. >> Cuz I know like they were either next
door or within like a few houses of theirs. >> Daniel told the detective that within a
week after the murders, his father had moved out of the neighborhood. >> Well, it freaked him out, you know. I
mean, you wake up and you find like the people next to you are dead. It's like, wow, that could have been us, you know?
And I guess it's just kind of scary in a way. It's spooky. Like, you want to just
get out of there? >> That was the perfect opening for Panetta. >> Yeah. You So, you you do know about the
uh the murders that we're investigating. I mean, it's Davis. When something like
that happens here, it's like, holy crap, everybody knows about it, hears about it.
>> Uh, tell me what you know about it. Um, I think there were like an elderly couple or something.
I know that somebody broke in and like stabbed these two people, but I don't really know anything else.
But as law enforcement officers questioned Daniel over the next 5 hours, they learned he knew quite a bit more
than that. I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and this is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh
murders. Episode 4, The Unlikely Suspect. >> What was your reaction when you heard
that the main suspect was a 15-year-old boy? >> It It shocked me. >> Special Agent Chris Campion worked in
the FBI's behavioral unit. The Davis Police Department had asked for his help the night before their sitdown with
Daniel Marsh. About an hour into the interview, Campion opened the door to the room.
>> I walked into the interview room and introduced myself and sat down and started talking to him.
>> Hi. Hi. You must be family. >> Yeah, I'm Chris Campion. Nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you. I'm um from the FBI.
I spoke with special agent Campion in 2018, 5 years after he questioned Daniel. Daniel was no ordinary suspect, and I
wanted to hear more about how he approached the interview. >> We had pretty good evidence, probable
cause evidence, but certainly not enough to arrest him there and then. >> And your then hope is to get him to
admit what he did. Of course, that's our goal. At the same time, though, um teams
are searching his mother's house, where he lived most of the time, uh searching his father's house, where he he was at
some of the time, and some other locations that they were trying to gather other evidence at the same time.
>> Campion started the conversation by asking Daniel about his family. >> Dad and mom split when you were pretty
young. >> Yeah. Wow. And then mom basically left, abandoned you or your family as
>> Yeah. for like 3 or 4 months and she just kind of randomly turned up again. >> Campion then got Daniel to confirm
something his friend Alvaro had already told the police. Daniel said that his parents divorced after his mother had an
affair with a woman. >> It was actually my kindergarten teacher. >> Wow. Yeah. >> In the interview, you're not just asking
him about the crime at all. You're you're starting just talking to him. What's the purpose of the beginning of
the interview? >> Well, in any law enforcement interview or any interview, you try to get some
rapport going to make the person feel at ease, right? And so, that's what we try
to do um in these cases. And of course, during that time, you get to know the person a little bit. I like to try to
drop a few hints and some themes that I might come back to later on. >> One of those themes Campion wanted to
pursue was trauma. He guessed that Daniel might relate to hearing about how people struggle like Daniel did with
mental health. doing the kind of work that I do, there is I see a lot of people who have had lives that are
just devastated, devastated by all sorts of different things. And the refuge is the key.
And uh we all do that. I mean, from combat veterans in Afghanistan and Iraq who come back and they have these
nightmares and they're haunted and >> PTSD and stuff. >> PTSD, right? We see those and we see
them do just some horrible things cuz they just want the the pain to stop. They want the they need the refuge. They
need someplace to go where they can feel something besides what they're feeling.
Does that make sense to you? >> Yeah. It's a way to escape, get some temporary relief,
>> right? Temporary relief from the hell that they're living in. >> Yeah. >> Does that sound kind of familiar to you?
>> Yeah. Campion spoke gently with Daniel and thought he had struck a chord with the
teenager. Daniel perked up as special agent Campion talked about the psychology of
criminals and his mission in law enforcement to heal people >> and not necessarily just the victims but
the people who do these horrendous things, what the public perceives as the horrendous things.
>> Yeah. They agreed that people might do horrible things, but that doesn't make
them horrible people. >> That's not what they planned on for their lives, right? But why did you get
there? How did you get there? And I ask them, you know, and they they're sometimes very honest and they say,
"Chris, it's just I I can't not do it. I can't not have it. It's what I think about all the time."
H somehow it might be a form of OCD. >> It's it's an obsession for sure and and it's a compulsion because they can't not
do it. >> Campion's approach to questioning fascinated me. I asked him where he was
going with it. >> Well, the biggest theme with Daniel that I I suspected is that he didn't feel
like anybody else could understand what was going on in his head. that he thought that he was unique, that that
nobody else felt like this. And so I tried to reassure him that I had talked to other people who have had these kind
of very dark thoughts and fantasies and that I wasn't going to look at him like he was an evil, terrible person that I
could understand, try to understand what was going on in his interior life, in his thoughts.
Daniel was opening up more and more. Campion learned that Daniel's father suffered from back and neck injuries.
How does he get along? I mean, that's got to be constant pain. >> Yeah, not very well. Uh, makes him
pretty irritable. Uh, doesn't help with his temper, but he's on a lot of painkillers. So,
>> does you look like one of those guys that we have so many in our society right now, Ben, that just are kind of
addicted, you know, like Brett Farre, a football player. And >> would you say that that's I say that
both my parents are addicted to painters. >> According to Daniel, there was one point
when he and his sister had to take care of their mom when she was diagnosed with
a disease affecting the nerves in her face. Uh, she has fibromyalgia and trigeminal
neuralgia and she might have MS. They're not sure yet. Daniel coped with his parents' behavior,
he said, by slowly trying to starve himself. Ultimately, he checked into an eating disorder clinic for 25 days.
But after treatment, he still sought other ways to harm himself. >> Kind of see a scar too there. Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> At that point, Special Agent Campion leaned forward to have a closer look.
Daniel extended his arm. >> I've attempted suicide in the past. >> Those aren't suicide attempts, so that's
something different. >> No, not at all. Those aren't that. But >> it what? No, this doesn't have anything
to do with the suicide. Okay. >> Daniel told Campion that his parents never found out about those attempts on
his own life. At the time of the police interview, Daniel had just turned 16. He had spent much of the conversation
with special agent Campion discussing the many problems in his life. But he also told him that his outlook on life
had started to improve somewhat when he began to take anti-depressant and anti-csychotic
medication. >> Yeah. Um got to the point where I actually wake up in the morning and I want to be
alive, you know, like I want to experience what life has now. I mean, I'm 16. I've just started. got my whole
life ahead of me. I experience all the things that they're already experienced. >> But Campion didn't see this revelation
quite the same way Daniel did. He didn't think Daniel Marsh was actually getting
better or healthier. Campion had reached a far more chilling conclusion. >> Well, to the casual observer, you might
think he's just, you know, he's getting through his depression and, you know, this is a good thing. He's looking
forward to a a life of doing positive things. In my mind, as I'm listening to that, I'm thinking he's looking forward
to being a serial killer. >> You're actually thinking that. And why are you getting that?
>> When I worked with the the profilers on on analyzing this case, and they've taught this to um people such as myself,
FBI agents out in the field for years. These people are fantasy driven. the, you know, the people who commit a crime,
like we saw in the crime scene photos of of this double murder, they're motivated
by a fantasy. They're they're interior life is completely obsessed with this fantasy that he has. And Daniels, we
find out later, is about death and mutilation and murder and gore. And uh so I knew that that was going on um in
his mind. So that's why I I felt pretty confident he was talking about looking forward to his future as a criminal.
This is what gave him pleasure. This is what gave him meaning in his life. This is what really thrilled him
and he he found that and could leave the depression behind. What exactly are you guys trying to
get from me? >> Daniel had asked, "What exactly are you guys trying to get from me?"
Close to 2 hours into questioning, FBI special agent Campion revealed concerns over some of Daniel's online postings.
people who are much more techsavvy than me cuz I'm just an old guy. I don't know
anything about anything. Found this thing called Tumblr. And your Tumblr page, is that the right
term? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Daniel had an account on Tumblr. It's a blogging platform where users can share
videos, pictures, or text posts. Daniel's page was public but under a pseudonym.
On it he had curated and saved a series of unsettling images. >> There were all sorts of images like Iraq
war deaths, you know, roadside bomb aftermath, um sniper killings, um horror movies, you know, Hollywood type horror
movie images, um all mixed together, crime scene photographs from different uh types of violent crimes. So he had a
little bit of everything, but it was the common theme was gore and violence and death.
>> How unusual is that for a 16-year-old? >> Very I think very unusual for any age.
Uh quite frankly, it's not a uh a focus or a an obsession um with most people. >> Campion kept patiently probing. He
needed to understand why Daniel focused so much on gore and violence. >> I'm wondering if it's a refuge for you,
Dan. In a way, kind of is. Um, got a dark, screwed up sense of humor. And actually, a lot of that stuff makes
me laugh when I see it. And I don't know, not a lot of stuff makes me laugh. >> Mhm. And so it's like I like horror
movies and it's just it's the same thing as a horror movie only it's real and since I don't have any connection to
whoever it happened to it doesn't really bother me. >> Right. So and it's kind of like the
cutting. It's it's a feeling, right? >> Yeah. Seriously. Like it makes me feel something and
I've just always kind of been into darker stuff. Darker stuff that would spook most
people seem to thrill Daniel. I don't know. It makes me like shocked and I don't know. I've fascinated with
anatomy and so like I don't know you can see what happened to them and how warped
their bodies are and just it's kind of fascinating to think like what could have done that? How did that happen?
Um why did that happen? Just how did this all come to play? And I don't know, sometimes they'll be like
in a funny pose or something and they'll just look like stupid and so like giggle at it.
Finally, Agent Campion got to the point of the long interview and directly brought up why Daniel was being asked
all these questions, the tips they received that he had killed Chip and Claudia,
that you were there, that you did those murders. Me? Mhm. That's ridiculous. >> Why is it ridiculous? I'm a kid.
>> No, that's Well, like I don't I don't hurt people. Like, you can ask anyone around me. I'm
a compassionate, affectionate person. I care about people. I don't hurt them. I mean, yeah, they piss me
off sometimes and they do some messed up but I care about people. >> What were you thinking at that point? I
mean, I found him kind of convincing. Did you at all? >> Um, no, I did not at that point. Um,
>> I mean, what would the normal innocent person do? >> Are you kidding me? You think I murdered
those people? Absolutely not. That's ridiculous. Are you really think it's me? something like that.
>> The FBI agent had just confronted Daniel with the reason they had brought him in.
They had evidence that Daniel committed the murders. Now, Campion had to get Daniel to admit it.
>> I see you as a person who has a need. You have a big need. you have a need for a refuge, maybe more than
anybody I've ever run across. And at age 16, just 16, that's remarkable. Um, I don't know if that's a good thing.
Probably not. But it is an unusual thing to see to meet a person like you, Dan, who is
been through some of the things you have and has this need, the compulsion, I think, the
the need to do something to feel. Well, yeah, but I don't hurt people. >> Over and over again, Daniel continued to
deny that he could have killed anyone. >> I don't want to kill anyone. I don't want to hurt anyone.
>> The person who did this, we will do it again. I have no doubt about it. They can't not.
It's the inside obsession. It's the compulsion. Well, then maybe that's where you'll
find your guy, sir. It's not me. >> Almost 3 hours had passed in the interview room. It was a standoff.
Special Agent Campion stepped out of the room. Daniel cracked his knuckles and wiped his face with a tissue. When
Campion returned, he was holding a DNA swab kit. >> Um, I'd like to take your DNA to check
it against things that have been found at the crime scene. Pretty much standard CSI kind of stuff.
Any problem with that? >> Okay. Special Agent Campion asked Daniel to remove his boots.
Then he again asked Daniel about the elderly couple who had lived near his father.
>> Have you ever been inside of that house? >> No. >> Either when they were there or when they
weren't there. >> When I went in once when we first moved there. >> Okay. What were the circumstances of
that? >> Neighbors. Meeting neighbors. It was just a little welcome thing, you know.
>> Daniel said that he had been to Chip and Claudia's house once when his father
first moved to the community. It was just a quote welcome thing, neighbors, meeting neighbors.
But it turned out that Daniel knew quite a lot about Chip and Claudia's home. He
had actually been invited inside with his father two years earlier. They show us around. I went in the
kitchen and in the living room showed me where Show me their bedroom. Show me like I can use their bathroom at
one point. I think it was a long time ago. >> He was planting the in the contingency
that there was DNA evidence there. you planting the the thought that maybe that could have been the reason.
>> As another officer began opening the DNA swab packaging, Campion picked up Daniel's boots and began probing for
more information. >> Anything um unusual about these? Uh I don't I don't think so. Um you ever
worn them around blood? Um maybe I get a lot of nose bleeds. So maybe they got on that. Okay. But if
that was to be the case, it would be your luck. I >> We started talking about um his boots,
which I think he realized were the same boots that he had worn the night of the murders, and he realized he probably
didn't clean those to remove all of the physical evidence. uh we started talking
about his cell phone and the fact that cell phones are basically personal tracking devices and you know we could
track his movements on particular days and times. So those factors I think started weighing on him that he wasn't
going to be able to talk his way out of this and the walls started closing in on
him. You guys are threatening me with with what? The truth? With getting arrested for two murders.
I aming I am so scared right now. Of course, I'm going to do anything I can to try and say that I didn't do
this. That was um the first sign that he was getting over that wall, that he was
getting ready to talk to us about what really happened. >> You want to help me and then don't ruin
my life. >> Anything send me to the psychiatric hospital. >> Backed into a corner
away. >> Daniel Marsh seemed to see that he was trapped. Chris, were you really prepared for what
he told you next? >> Um, no. >> Every time I look at someone in my mind, I see flashes of images of me killing them,
>> okay? >> In numerous ways, and numerous horrible ways, doing terrible things. I can't
help it. It's just what comes into my head when I see them. >> I don't want it to. Oh my god, it does.
But it does. Daniel admitted to special agent Campion that he had spent years thinking about
killing people and that he made it a reality on that April night. >> When was the first time you started
thinking about killing these people down the street? That night, I just I couldn't take it
anymore. I had to do it. I lost control a little. Okay. I just went into the street
and wandered around for a while just looking for who would be which house I should go to, who would be
a good thing. >> Daniel said he had walked through his father's South Davis neighborhood in the
middle of the night. He scouted most of the street and checked out 50 homes. >> Everyone had done a good job of locking
their doors and closing their windows until I got to their house. >> When he got to Chip and Claudia's home,
he noticed that they had left a back window open. So, he cut the screen and climbed through. I listened for a
snoring and I heard it, went to their bedroom. I opened the door and I just kind of stood over their bed
watching them sleep for a few minutes. My body was trembling. I was nervous but excited and exhilarated.
I was actually going to do it. I was there. It's finally happening. >> He said at that point Claudia woke up.
I just started standing. She over and over getting all strapped in the torso. And I
tried to get them. And then the husband woke up and he looked over and just as he looked over I
stabbed him in the neck. And he didn't stop. Daniel Marsh stabbed both Chip and Claudia a combined
128 times. >> Made sure they were both dead and then I just kind of kept stabbing their dead
bodies. Don't know why. I just felt right. Okay. So, even after they stopped moving, even when they were dead, I
wasn't done. >> Daniel admitted to all of it. >> I just kind of messed around with
messed around with them. Cut open both of their torsos around here. And in the woman, I put a phone in the side
of her. And I put a cup in the side of the guy. I don't know why. I really don't.
Okay. And I like cut open her leg. I don't know why I did that either. I just kind of wanted to see
>> the horrific details Daniel shared match crime scene reports and the autopsies.
But what he said afterwards was even more outrageous. I'm not going to lie, it felt
amazing. >> How did it feel? It >> felt great. I I It was pure happiness and adrenaline and dopamine just all of
it rushing over me. It's the most exhilarating, enjoyable feeling I've ever felt.
>> Special Agent Chris Campion never changed the tone of his voice during the hourslong interview. He never reacted
visibly to anything Daniel Marsh said to him. But he later admitted to me that Daniel Marsh was the most dangerous
suspect he had ever interviewed. With everything out in the open, Daniel was then willing to walk the police
through where they could find the rest of the evidence. The ski mask he wore, his gloves, his pants. He had stashed it
all in his mother's garage, but he kept the jacket. just kind of a little momento and a
constant reminder what happened just so I can see it and it'll kind of relive it.
>> Daniel knew his admission of guilt was going to lead to an arrest and was curious about what would come
next. Did you get the death penalty? I don't know. >> That was kind of farfetched.
>> You were 15, right? >> Yeah, I was 15 and got psychological issues of law. >> There was one moment from Campion's
interview with Daniel that especially shocked me. In my years of reporting on crime, I had never heard anything like
it in a police interrogation. For the prosecutors building a case against Daniel, it was just one more
example of how dangerous Daniel would be if he wasn't put behind bars for a long
time. That's next time on 15. Inside the Daniel Marsh murders. This series was reported by me, Aaron
Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora Walls is our story editor. And Jamie Benson is the senior producer. Megan
Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 Hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo.
This podcast was written and produced by Carara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan
Nadulski, and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers
at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian Enright. Original theme in music by Hans
Del Shei with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our
production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating
and review. It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15
inside the Daniel Marsh murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by searching 48 hours on your favorite
podcast app. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to
graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. I mean, Chris, do you believe that
Daniel Marsh was a serial killer in training? >> Absolutely. Abs, without a doubt that if
if he had been allowed to keep on going, um, he actually talked about how he was
going to take his next victim. Almost 4 hours into questioning at the police station, Daniel Marsh admitted to
FBI special agent Chris Campion that he had murdered Claudia Min and Chip Northup. But he didn't stop there.
Campion learned the teenager was already thinking about his next killing. Well, I was going to basically
do this same thing only with a different mask and a different gloves, a different
jacket. And instead of breaking in, I figured I'd get somebody when they were alone at night out in the street or out
somewhere just find somebody alone at night and beat him to death with a baseball bat.
>> Okay. Did you have anybody in mind? No. Had you actually gone out looking for
someone? Yeah. >> He was someone who did not have a conscience. >> You believe Daniel Marsh is a
psychopath? >> I do. I believe Daniel Marsh is a psychopath. I I knew it when he was
talking to me. He actually admitted it. >> Cuz I don't feel sympathy for other people
at all. Don't feel empathy for them. And whether I like that or not, it's the way
it is. Just like I want to hurt people. Campion maintained his composure. And then he asked Daniel a question that
I had never heard in a police interrogation. >> So, how would you kill me? There's a lot of ways, I mean, that
you've thought of so far in the couple hours that we spent together here. Well, choking you to dust with your tie. Okay.
Uh, beating your face into the mirror until it broke and using the glass to cut your arteries. Uh, gouging your eyes
out and just smashing your face into the wall. Campion had asked, "How would you kill
me?" And almost immediately, Daniel had thought of three different gruesome ways
that he would do it. >> Nothing personal. >> I don't take it personal. Okay. It's
just that's what happens when you meet somebody, when you're thinking, when there's that time when you
>> involuntary. It's something that just happens. >> And I said I didn't take it personally
cuz I didn't I don't think I did anything to offend him, to upset him. Um, I think he literally thinks about
that with anybody he meets. That's what he thinks about doing. That's his fantasy life.
>> While Daniel was questioned, police had searched his mother's home. There they
found writings, drawings, a knife, duct tape, and clothing with Chip and Claudia's DNA.
Police also searched Daniel's father's home. When he found out his son was being questioned, he said he sent a
public defender down to the police station. Authorities finally had a suspect in
Chip Northup and Claudia Mopin's murders. And with physical evidence, DNA samples, and a complete confession, it
seemed like the case against Daniel was solid. But the fact that the suspect was
a teenager would complicate things for the prosecution. I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron
Morardi. This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. Episode 5, A Killer's Mind.
When did you first hear the name Daniel Marsh? >> The victim's advocate as well as the
Davis police u liaison who was in charge of our case uh called and said that they
had made an arrest. Victoria Herd had finally gotten the call she had been anxiously waiting for.
>> I just remember shaking my head going, "What? What?" >> That anyone could kill her mother and
stepfather was difficult enough to believe. But a 15-year-old, a teenager, who was this boy named Daniel Marsh?
I'm in shock and then all of a sudden I get a burst of, you know, eldest daughter can do anything. And I said,
I've got to go to that arraignment. That arrangement's going to happen within 24
hours. I've got to go there and see this man, young man. So >> kid, >> kid. >> But Victoria would have to wait even
longer to see him. Because Daniel was a minor, his face was hidden by a wall at the arraignment.
>> My sister-in-law was with me. And I said, "I I have got to see him. I've got to look in his face and see this man who
killed my mother." >> Finally, she saw Daniel's face through a TV monitor. He looked like somebody who
would be one of my niec's boyfriends. He looked like some hippie kid from Davis.
When I was at the arraignment, his father sat in front of me. And uh I think it was my victim's advocate who
told me that was his father. And there was something strange. I didn't like it. I didn't like the feel.
>> Daniel's father is Bill Marsh. We spoke in 2018. >> Did it ever occur to you that your own
son could be involved in something like that? >> Not in a million years. >> You never saw any sign of that? You
never got a sense that your son >> If I had had any sense of it, I would have taken action.
>> Bill seemed to still struggle with what his son was accused of. Show me the pictures you have here. Tell me who this
is. >> This is This is Daniel in 2009. So that would have made him uh 12. >> This was about the time when you had the
heart attack. >> Yes. Right. >> One day in November 2009, Daniel was home with his father when Bill says he
had started feeling dizzy. >> And I I'd gone upstairs and taken a shower. Came down. I said, "Come on,
Dan. Let's go to the hospital. I got checked out. >> They got in the car and made it to the
corner of their street. >> Next thing I knew, I woke up and the car was ran into a wall covered in bushes
and a tree. I asked Daniel, "How did we wind up here? What happened?" He says, "I don't know, Daddy." He says,
"Suddenly, you just passed out." He says, "I climbed into your lap and steered the car into the wall to stop
it." >> It must have been terrifying for Daniel, who started banging on his father's
chest. something Daniel later said he had seen on a medical drama. It worked. Daniel
had saved his father's life. About a month later, Daniel was presented with an American Red Cross
Heroes Award. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was a major event. Um he was all over the media and they were,
you know, touting this young American hero and look at this. He might actually be a future doctor.
Sure enough, there was Daniel, featured in local newspapers, hailed for his heroism. In photos, he looks innocent
and sweet, wearing a suit with a rose bud in his lapel, his father proudly standing beside him. The next year,
Daniel enrolled in the Davis Police Department's Youth Academy, receiving instruction on crime scene
investigation. But while Daniel may have appeared a model citizen on the outside, he was
also harboring a dark side, something Bill said he didn't notice until after his heart attack. you know that he told
counselors that he was actually killing animals before then. Did you have any sense of that, Bill?
>> No, not at all. Um, in fact, I had because of all the upheaval in the family and the rest, I had no basis of
of experience to counsel him. >> But he told the FBI agent that he had thought about killing your wife's
>> lover >> lover that he thought about killing her. That was 2 years earlier. >> As Daniel entered the Yolo County
courthouse almost a year and a half after Claudia Mopin and Chip Northup's murders, a judge and jury were about to
decide his fate. >> Now on trial is Daniel Marsh, the teenager being tried as an adult after
the gruesome killings that rocked the city of Davis last year. On Tuesday, September 2nd, 2014,
the long awaited murder trial against Daniel Marsh, now 17 years old, began at the Yolo County Courthouse.
Daniel had been charged as an adult with two counts of firstdegree murder. Prosecutors concluded that he had quote
committed a very adult crime in a very adult manner. And then just 3 months before the trial began, Daniel changed
his plea from not guilty to not guilty by reason of insanity. A clear indication of the defense to
come. Inside the courtroom, Daniel looked noticeably different from the year before when he had first confessed to
killing Chip Northup and Claudia Mopin. Gone was the long scruffy hair. Now it was cut short, neater, and darker.
>> He showed zero emotion. Um, he didn't seem scared. Um, he would just face forward. He never cried. This is Amanda
Zambour, the deputy district attorney for Yolo County. I spoke with her in 2018.
At the time of the trial, she was one of the two prosecutors. Had you ever run into a defendant like
this? >> Not in real life. Only in books when you read about Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dmer, um
you know, Richard Ramirez, all people that he idolized and and studied and identified with. And did that add a
whole another the fact that this defendant was a kid? >> Yeah. So, I was pregnant with my third
child on um during the trial and you you definitely reflect back and how can a child do this? How can they have such a
depraved mind? How do how do they get that way? Um is it possible to change them? Zambour along with co-prosecutor
Michael Cabraw began prepping for the trial as soon as Daniel was arrested in June 2013.
>> Davis Police Department thankfully built a very strong case and Chris Campion um
from the FBI did a masterful job in his interview of Marsh. Had Campion not been
on that, I don't know that we would have gotten the confession that we did. But they really built a solid case on Marsh
from the get-go once we figured out it was him. What about though the defense argument that this guy, this young man
had a lot of trauma? His mother left the family for another woman. Um, he was in
this car accident when his father had a heart attack. He had to save his father.
He was bullied in school. Possible that that could cause this kind of anger and lashing out. You know, there's no doubt
that he he had some trauma in his life, but there's how many kids that go through and have divorced parents and
they don't kill other people. They may struggle with depression. They may struggle with other things, but there's
a lot of people who actually have severe trauma that don't act like this. >> But Zamour needed to convince the jurors
that Daniel had intended to kill. I mean, he had been fantasizing about it since he was 10, 11 years old about
killing somebody. So, it wasn't this spur-ofthe- moment um murder where he just snapped and went
out. He planned and stole items and sharpened the knife and put duct tape on his boots to not leave footprints,
which, you know, it it just shows how intelligent he is. To put Daniel behind bars, Zambour needed to make the case to
jurors that Daniel knew exactly what he was doing. And if given the chance, he'd
do it again. And if that happened, he'd be even better at it. >> I believe he would have gotten away with
these murders if he had not bragged to his friends. If he had not bragged, he would have killed others. He would have
he bragged about going out with a baseball bat in the middle of the night and just not being able to find the
right victim. He had plotted and planned another victim for his girlfriend's ex-boyfriend and had done reconnaissance
on him and I mean knew the pets in the home, the neighbors, what family members lived there. He had created a fa
Facebook account to get more intel on this family to to try and figure out how he could kill them. and he actually went
out and waited for him on one night, but he didn't come. >> In the courtroom, the prosecution
questioned dozens of witnesses, including friends of Chip and Claudia, Daniel's former friend, Alvaro Garbe,
police officers, and psychiatrists. One witness, a member of the Davis Police Department, helped process the
crime scene. He testified that the blood stain patterns left behind suggested that Chip and Claudia were awake and had
tried to defend themselves against Daniel. Claudia fought, made him mad, and it just invigorated him to keep
going. He describes how her please for for him to stop just enthused him, made him want to keep
going. These were horrific details. Prosecutors tried to prepare Claudia and Chip's
families for what they would hear in the courtroom. >> So, they would brief us before we'd go
in and say, "Okay, now in this next part, you're going to hear some things that you haven't heard before."
Claudia's daughter, Victoria, told me that one of the most painful times for her was sitting in court watching that
taped interview between FBI special agent Chris Campion and Daniel Marsh. >> It was really tough for me. Um
especially when he got to the part where he talked about killing my mother and he
talked about um he had to stab keep stabbing her because she wouldn't die and that she was
begging for her life and that was hard. And I I felt I was sitting there and I felt like I couldn't stay in the seat
anymore. I felt like it was so real that I was experiencing the death of my mother. He was saying all the details in
the interview and I felt like I was watching the murder of my mother and I I couldn't sit. I stood. How do you
describe a person like Daniel Marsh after hearing him talk? >> My mind can't process that degree of
evil. So hearing that was just something that I I just can't go there. I can't It's so dark. It's just so dark.
Adding to Victoria's horror was the score of friends and fans. Yes, fans who showed up to the trial to support
Daniel. >> He had a lot of goth followers. So he had a lot of young women who were
following him acting like little teenage girls, you know, dressed in black and black makeup and all that and thinking
that he was innocent, you know, and if he could have waved at them or hugged them or shook them hand, it was like he
was a celebrity. Like he was the celebrity that he wanted to be. No remorse. >> Oh, no. He was reveling in his
celebrity. The prosecution was convinced that not only did Daniel know exactly what he was
doing when he killed Chip and Claudia, but the big question at trial, was Daniel in his right mind? Was he sane
when committing the murders? Daniel's defense team intended to prove he wasn't. And this was the man they
wanted to help make that case. >> So, my name is Dr. Matthew Sulier and I'm a child forensic psychiatrist. I was
hired by his attorney in 2013 to evaluate him as part of his original trial. >> I sat down with Dr. Sulier in 2018 and
again in 20125. >> My job really was to kind of explore his life history beginning with birth until
the day I was meeting him and try to get a sense of what his life story is. um some of his more critical experiences in
relationships, history of trauma, and specifically as it related to the defense, I needed him to tell me about
what he did, and I needed to try to figure out if in fact he was if it was going to be my opinion that he was
criminally responsible or not. >> Sulle first met Daniel a few months after his arrest. In 2013, I met him at
the Yolo County Juvenile Hall and uh he was dressed in, you know, typical juvenile hall attire.
He was a different kind of kid. I mean, when I I it does stick out to me that uh
there was a coldness to him. Um despite even the number of hours that I spent with him, I didn't feel that I mean
there was a heart or that there was there was a feeling in him. In fact, Daniel was still regularly thinking
about killing people. He told Sulier that he had thoughts of harming his peers and the people taking care of him
in juvenile hall. Then, just like FBI special agent Chris Campion, Dr. Sulier found himself on the receiving end of
Daniel's homicidal thoughts. I asked him, "What are you thinking about?" And he said, "I'm thinking about killing
you. I'm thinking about taking that pen on your table right there and shoving it
in your neck. I'm thinking about taking your laptop and crushing it over your head."
>> It wasn't the only time that a patient had threatened Dr. Sulier. So, while he
took it seriously, it didn't deter him from trying to speak with Daniel again. He was able to go back a week later. Dr.
Sulier believed that Daniel's desire to kill him and others was actually the result of an obsessive compulsive
disorder. >> It's my belief that, you know, Daniel wasn't born a bad seed. I don't believe
in that. Daniel clearly changed around the age of 10. Um, by everybody's observation and what we could gather
about him, um, he wasn't a terrible kid up until age 10. But you don't think he was born that way?
>> No. No. I I I just the issue of psychopathy. Uh it it's clearly something that yes, there's probably
some level of genetic predisposition to it. Um but he wasn't a bad kid in preschool or kindergarten. There's no
evidence of that of any kind. Um there's something that was unlocked in him. There were forces, there were things
that experiences, things that happened to him that I think made him who he was. >> Dr. Sulier also believed that Daniel
didn't want to be this way, that he had wanted to stop his compulsive behavior. >> In his case, he developed these morbid
preoccupations about death, about killing people. Um, but again, the thing that it was important to note to me was
that it was disturbing to him. He was going around telling everybody and anybody who would listen to him. Um, he
told school, he's told a transporting police officer, he told his therapist, he told a psychiatrist, he told anybody
that he wanted to kill everybody. I have these thoughts. I don't want to have them. Ultimately, he did act on them.
But the precursor was sat masochistic sex, gore porn, all these things was an attempt in my mind to diminish the
intensity of those preoccupations. And at first it worked. At first it would dissolve those thoughts and feelings
about killing other people. But ultimately that gave out and it wasn't sufficient. And ultimately he then acted
on it. >> But at some point Daniel seemed to stop fighting his compulsions. The horror he had once felt had morphed
into something else. Rather than being repelled and upset by what he had done, when he finally listened to those
repetitive thoughts, he was actually excited about it, proud. What does that say?
>> Um, that's disturbing. That's deviant. Again, that's the psychopathy in him that really lacks feeling. he just is
unable to feel um compassion for those that he hurt at that time in 2013. And that's scary.
But here's the important part. Daniel might have had strong compulsions to kill. Compulsions that he struggled to
control. But Dr. Sulier concluded that Daniel was not legally insane. What would make him insane? What are you
looking for? Is it like a memory of does he have all the details? Did he know what he did? You know, does he remember
doing it? >> It is a very high standard. You have to be able to um lack an appreciation for
what you did. So, for instance, while you're holding a knife, you think you're, you know, holding a spoon or
something that's completely unrelated. um and that you really fail to understand the morality of what you're
doing, the consequences of what you're doing. It it's it's typically reserved for people that have very severe
psychiatric illness, uh psychotic illness, uh people that are uh acting under the direction of delusions or
voices. And none of this was true for Daniel. The fact that Daniel actually bragged about what he was doing and
seemed to enjoy it, but also covering the bottom of his shoes with tape. What does that say to you when you're trying
to determine whether he's insane or not? >> It shows that he's engaging in logical
and linear behaviors. He's calculating. He's planning in a logical manner. We might disagree with what he's doing,
obviously, and it's terrible. Um, but it's not psychotically driven in any way. Dr. Sulier was convinced that Daniel
knew what he was doing when he committed the murders. But despite Sulier's professional assessment, Daniel's
defense team was determined to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. And they planned to prove that the medications
Daniel had taken made him that way. The drugs made me do it. >> Exactly. the drugs and anti-depressant
um specifically and what I basically told defense is that I couldn't get on board with the idea of the defense of an
insanity particularly I didn't believe that the anti-depressants caused him to act in that way or kill so the defense
said thank you and they went and found another expert >> the defense called Dr. James Maracangis
to testify as an expert witness, a neurologist and psychiatrist. He interviewed Daniel and his family
members several times and reviewed Daniel's previous medical records and police statements. Dr. America's
testimony focused largely on SSRIs, a class of anti-depressants that included medications that Daniel had
been prescribed to treat severe depression. According to Merrick Hangus, the side
effect of those drugs could include extreme restlessness, outbursts of anger, and increased
impulsivity. Daniel, he said, was experiencing those side effects. The doctor believed that
Daniel had endured trauma for years. And that had, in part, made him more susceptible to dangerous side effects.
Daniel's father, Bill Marsh, also believed that Daniel's behavior was caused by medication.
>> It turns your world upside down. Turns your brain inside out. You think that's
the only reason why he killed Ch? >> I do. Yeah. >> But isn't it just possible your son is a
psychopath? >> Um, not in my mind. No. >> And why? Why? Why are you so >> Because I I've raised him. I was around
him all the time. And he was in my estimation a normal kid until they um until they started feeding these drugs.
>> Most important, Dr. Marra Kangas said that on the day of the murder, Daniel had reported having an outof body
experience. Marra Kangas couldn't prove when Daniel's dreamlike state began or how
long it lasted. He just knew that according to Daniel, it had started sometime that night. The doctor knew
that Daniel, the defendant, had motivation to lie about this dreamlike state. After all, Daniel hadn't said
anything about it in his interviews with special agent Chris Campion or Dr. Matthew Sulier. But still, Dr. Marangas
felt that Daniel had been truthful to him in his interview. >> I just fundamentally don't believe
putting someone on an anti-depressant generates any level of risk that you're going to go and do what Daniel did.
>> That's Dr. soulier again and he wasn't convinced that medications could cause
legal insanity. >> There are side effects. It can make you more suicidal, more agitated, but it
doesn't drive you to kill in the way he did in such a calculating and callous manner. It just doesn't.
>> And as prosecutor Amanda Zambour pointed out, Daniel was having those violent
feelings much earlier. when you actually looked at the medical records, he was having these thoughts and fantasies
before he was ever on Zoloft. Um he wasn't taking his Zoloft as he was supposed to. A lot of times he would
just not take them. Um he described selling some of his medications to other people. So really there was no basis for
that. After four weeks of testimony, it would be up to the jury to decide, was Daniel
Marsh guilty, and if so, did he know what he was doing when he committed the murders? There was a lot at stake here
for Daniel and the community. Because one verdict would put Daniel behind bars for the foreseeable future. The other
meant Daniel would go to a psychiatric hospital for treatment. >> You know, we felt very confident in the
case, in the evidence, but there's always that little bit of doubt. >> Prosecutor Amanda Zamour felt she had
made the best case she could to the jury. >> You had mostly women on the jury. Were
you worried one woman might feel sympathy for this young guy? >> Um, you know, it's it's always it's a
16-year-old boy at the time and so you always worry about not just women but men that they could see their son and
you know they feel sorry like how could this this child have done this? But nearly 2 hours after closing arguments,
the jury re-entered the courtroom and the verdict was >> guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of of
every single count of all the enhancements of all the special circumstances. Unanimously, the jury had found Daniel
Marsh guilty on two counts of firstdegree murder along with additional quote enhancements that increase the
severity of the punishment he would face due to the depraved nature of the crime.
>> You see things on TV and you think, well, that's television that couldn't possibly happen in such a
way. in in real life, but it was actually probably more horrifying. >> Cheryl Gleason sat on the jury of eight
women and four men. She explained to me why she believed Daniel Marsh was guilty. the stacks of binders of
pictures from the crime scene, the piles of evidence that we went through, hearing the accounts of the story, the
more evidence that came out in how meticulous and precise his actions were, how things
leading up to that, like going through the junior police academy and how well he did at that. and and he was a smart
kid. Really smart kid. >> Hearing weeks of gruesome testimony left some jurors traumatized.
>> It had a long-term effect that I wasn't really thinking would happen. To this
day, I cannot fall asleep without sleeping my face towards the door, the bedroom door. I can't turn my back on
the door to this day. explain that to me >> because he came through a window that he
cut the screen out of through the living room but then came into their bedroom door and so I just I see that as this
thing that I have to keep my eye on until I fall asleep. >> However, finding Daniel guilty was not
actually the end of the trial. The jury still had to make another decision. Was Daniel insane at the time of the
murders? While she had been confident that the jurors would find Daniel guilty of
murder, prosecutor Amanda Zambour wasn't as confident about the issue of insanity.
>> Were you more nervous about that? >> Yes. Because of that, you know, that immediate thought to see something this
grave, the immediate thought is that somebody would have to be insane to do something like this. they'd have to be
out of their mind. Um, but then again, when you go back and you hear him speak about just how happy and enthused that
this made him, that he was laughing the whole way home and giggling and wanted to relive it and kept these momentos and
to see it up close is it's powerful. So after delivering the guilty verdict, the jurors heard another day of
arguments where the prosecution and defense tried to prove that Daniel was either legally sane or insane at the
time of the crime. And once again, it was a quick decision for the jury. They found Daniel to be sane at the time he
committed the murders of Claudia Mopin and Chip Northup. >> It was just really clear that he was not
insane. >> So if he's not insane, then what is Daniel Marsh? >> He's a psychopathic killer. I think if
he were let loose, he would be a serial killer. He has an urge to kill. Ahead of the sentencing, the judge heard
from members of Claudia and Chip's family who talked about the deep losses they had suffered. Victoria Herd
detailed the trauma that the family experienced and told the court that her sister Laura
had quote lost her mind to grief after discovering the bodies and had still not recovered by the time of the trial.
Victoria also recalled having to tell her children about their grandmother's murder and how they sobbed and screamed
in heartbreak. Victoria's message to the court was that quote, "If Daniel is free, people will
die. Another son, another daughter, another father, mother, brother, sister will suffer as I have. Therefore, in
honor of my mother, Claudia Mopin, and the legacy of love that she left behind for us, it is my belief that the loving,
compassionate action in this situation would be to request from the court the maximum sentence allowable for the
torture and murder of my mother and her husband, Chip Northup. And then the judge handed Daniel a
sentence. that prosecutor Amanda Zambour had been working to secure for weeks. >> The judge sentenced Daniel Marsh to 52
years. Were you happy with that? >> It it was the maximum that he could have done. Um had he been 16, he would have
been eligible for life without the possibility of parole. Um but because of his age, the max he could have gotten
was 52 years to life. So we were very happy with that. The prosecution had succeeded in their effort to put Daniel
behind bars for a long, long time. When asked for comment on the case and sentencing, Daniel's lawyers declined.
While Daniel had been handed the longest sentence possible, he still would be eligible for parole in 25 years. But in
the meantime, the victim's families could take time to breathe. >> When we received the conviction, it felt
healing, like we could we could be free. >> But it wasn't over yet, was it? >> It wasn't over, Aaron. No, it wasn't
over. >> It was not over. Not by a long shot. Because 4 years later, Victoria and the
rest of Chip and Claudia's family would find themselves fighting again as a new California law threatened to let Daniel
go free much earlier than the judge had ordered. >> So if he's out in 4 years, he knows us.
He knows our names. Of course he does. He's seen us in court. The capacity that he could get back on the streets and do
what he's done again. >> Yes. That fear is overwhelming. >> That's next on 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh murders.
This series was reported by me, Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora Walls is our story editor. and Jamie
Benson is a senior producer. Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS.
Special thanks to 48 hours executive producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie
Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo. This podcast was written and produced by
Carara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan Nadulski, and Ian Enright.
Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian
Enright. Original theme in music by Hans Delshi with additional music from Paramount.
Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron
Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating and review. It helps more people find it and hear
our reporting. If you liked 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by
searching 48 hours on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening. Before we begin, just a trigger warning.
The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence and suicide. Please listen with care.
Well, it was late at night and I was finishing up some work at my computer and I said, "Well, how how bad could
this be?" You know, not never a good thing to say to yourself. 4 years after Daniel Marsh had been sent
to prison for murdering her mother, Claudia Mppen, Victoria Herd was sitting in her office preparing to watch a
YouTube video. >> I came to realize that there are no such things as evil people in this world.
only damaged people. >> There on the screen suddenly was Daniel Marsh. It was 2018 and Daniel was now 20
years old. >> I did horrible things to people who never deserved to be hurt. >> In the video, Daniel was standing on a
stage delivering a TEDex talk organized by his correctional facility. His short hair was slick back and he wore a blue
prison shirt and sweatpants >> and I'm watching it like a deer in the headlights. You know, I can't pull my
eyes away. It's a mature, self- assured Daniel Marsh telling his story. In all his
previous interviews with law enforcement and psychiatrists, Daniel had denied being sexually abused. But that story
had now changed. In his TED X talk, he claimed he had been sexually abused as a child, although he never named the
culprit or provided any details about the alleged abuse. >> Growing up, I felt like there wasn't a
soul in the world that I could tell. >> He also admitted that he hurt people, but he never apologized for murdering
Chip and Claudia. I just went into a rage immediately. I went into a crying rage.
>> What bothered you? Tell me. >> It was his arrogance. It was his um uh minimizing
not talking about what he did. Uh you know, and not showing any kind of remorse.
No remorse. But Daniel said he was changing. finally learning how to connect with others and let go of hate.
>> We must always always embrace our humanity. >> The audience was celebrating him as he
spoke. Good job on your recovery. And you could feel that coming from his audience. Victoria says she couldn't
quite believe her eyes. The audience rose to its feet and applauded. This was not a man she believed who had changed.
I felt like no more. No more from you. We did a loving thing by putting you behind bars. This is a loving thing to
our family and our community that's suffering. And then you're going to keep coming.
>> Yeah. >> No. Chip and Claudia's family wanted to move forward and heal, so they pushed to get
the video removed from the internet, and it was. But that video wasn't the last they'd see of Daniel Marsh.
New laws in California intended to rehabilitate young offenders were about to put Daniel's case in the spotlight
again. This was a massive undertaking to essentially reopen the case. >> It had been 5 years since Daniel Marsh
had killed two people. Was it possible that in that time he had changed? That certainly was his contention.
>> I I'm not who I used to be. >> And if so, could he walk free? >> The fear was overwhelming.
I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and this is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders
episode 6 hurt people in his TEDex talk in March 2018 18, Daniel Marsh talked about why he
believed he had changed for the better. And there was a reason for that public appeal. It was because of a new state
law that might give Daniel a chance at freedom. >> One of the most controversial
propositions on California's ballot would impact the state prison system and some say public safety.
A ballot proposal called Prop 57 reform the state juvenile criminal justice system. It would allow only judges, not
prosecutors, to decide whether certain juveniles would be tried as adults in court. And among those who had voted for
the new law were Chip and Claudia's children. Victoria explained why. Of course, I want our children to be
rehabilitated. I think that there's a lot of young criminals in the adult system that shouldn't be there. So, yes,
I want to support any kind of rehabilitation for young people. Um, but did you think that might include
>> I did not I did not think that would include Daniel Marsh. >> But Daniel's attorneys argued despite
the violence of his crimes, he should benefit from Prop 57. And an appeals court agreed and granted
Daniel a new hearing at the Superior Court of Yolo County. Now, a juvenile court judge would go
back, listen to the evidence, and decide if Daniel Marsh should have been tried as a juvenile instead of an adult.
And this is what was at stake. If the judge ruled in Daniel's favor, he would then be tried as a juvenile. And even if
he was again convicted, the state could be forced to set him free on his 25th birthday. Okay, Madame Clerk, let's go
on the record. In the case JD18-332 in the matter of Daniel William Marsh, the judge had to weigh several factors,
including the sophistication and gravity of the crime, prior juvenile delinquent
behavior, and the probability of rehabilitation. You know, of course, my memory of Daniel
is him telling me he wants to put a pen in my neck and crush my head with a laptop. So, um, right, I was skeptical.
That's Dr. Matthew Sulier, who took the witness stand for the defense. He's the psychiatrist I spoke to in the last
episode, who was first asked to evaluate Daniel Marsh in 2013. 5 years after the trial, he had received
a call from Daniel's defense team asking if he would meet with their client again.
>> We were being asked for the first time as child forensic psychiatrists, is Daniel amendable to rehabilitation.
Um, and this was new, quite frankly, and and why start with this guy? I mean, this guy is um extremely challenging.
And I said, I'll, you know, I'll give it a shot. I' I'd like to see what he looks
like 5 years later. And I went and met with him. >> And was the same Daniel Marsh sitting in
front of you when you walked in? >> No, he was different. Well, he wasn't a boy anymore, obviously, so he was, you
know, more grown up. He had more of the appearance of an adult. He was much warmer.
Immediately he remembered that he had threatened to harm me. He without me prompting expressed remorse for it, said
he was sorry. Um and then proceeded to tell me how he had grown, how he had changed, how he had uh so-called done
the work and that he had gained a lot by being around people who had been compassionate towards him.
In his testimony, Dr. Sulier said Daniel had begun his rehabilitation early on in
juvenile hall. >> He's still not out of the woods. He's still got some definite growth and
maturation to do, but he's grown a lot emotionally. As for Daniel's past fixation on killing
others, >> the homicidal ideation, those thoughts, imagery, um, intentions to kill other people have
completely ceased. Um, per his report. >> Daniel told Sulier that he had never felt better.
>> It was his opinion that he could live violent free, that he could um be set free at 25, and that he could live
without violence. I first spoke with Dr. Sulier a few months after his 2018 testimony at the
hearing. >> But you did testify that you thought he could be rehabilitated. >> I did and I didn't. I was struggling
because of course I was struggling with just the nature of what he did. It was horrific. It's hard to contemplate that
the mind behind that crime is changeable. He did a horrible crime. He's a psychopath. Let's throw him away.
Why are we even having this silly hearing? And I too, I grappled with it too. He is an extreme.
>> You wrote in in your report, Mr. Marsh is manipulative, intelligent, and capable of deceiving this evaluator and
others. >> I did. >> And if he is in fact lying to you, wouldn't that make you more concerned
about his ability to be rehabilitated? It would be if he was uh lying and being disingenuous about everything then right
that would be a pause for concern but there are some things that he can't lie about. Um there are other factors to
consider as it relates to transfer. There is the the absence of his delinquency history. There is the
absence of a court reaching out to him and trying to help him before he did this. there are things that he can't lie
about that help his cause. Um, and gave me reason to go in and try to opine that
he should go back to a juvenile jurisdiction. >> Dr. Matthew Sullier was hired by
Daniel's defense team. So when his testimony wrapped, the prosecution called its own expert on psychopathy,
forensic psychologist Matthew Logan. While Logan had never met Daniel Marsh, he did examine his records and saw that
when he had turned 18, Daniel had scored a 35.8 out of 40 on a widely used psychopathy
checklist. It was one of the highest scores Dr. Logan had ever seen. In other words, according to this
assessment, Daniel Marsh had nearly all the traits of a psychopath. Some of the traits are glib, superficial
charm, grandiose sense of selfworth, pathological lying, uh criminal versatility,
uh lack of responsibility, uh inability to feel remorse. >> Dr. Logan also highlighted a
psychopath's ability to con and manipulate. Well, they they have an uncanny ability
to to um use their charm and use use a lot of real savvy as opposed to just straight intelligence, but street smarts
in order to kind of manipulate police, uh psychologists, uh national parole board, the courts.
>> Logan told me at the time that releasing a psychopath like Daniel Marsh was dangerous.
It definitely means that um that this person is not going to be easily rehabilitated or not rehabilitated at
all by any means that is being used within the correctional system. I think this is going to be something that he's
going to be dealing with the rest of his life. >> Do you believe that Daniel Marsh could
kill again and will kill again? >> I I believe that he could kill again. And if I was being asked uh to make a
decision on the likelihood, I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again.
>> This was the chief concern for Claudia and Chip's family members when they were
allowed to give impact statements at the hearing. Here's Chip's daughter, Mary Northup.
I was raised to believe that people deserve a second chance. But a second chance is really only
worthwhile if one acknowledges and understands the issues that caused the failure in the first place and has the
desire and ability not to do the same thing again. >> Mary acknowledged that no punishment
would ever bring back her father. But the one thing this court could do is protect all the other families
from suffering as ours has suffered at the hands of this defendant. >> As she spoke, Mary alternated her gaze
between the judge and Daniel. >> He didn't look at anyone that gave it a personal statement. I I was surprised
because if he's a really good manipulator, he at least looks and tries to be empathic. But I think he didn't
look cuz he realized he couldn't feain empathy. >> After the victim's statements, the judge
requested a brief recess, and Daniel's defense team returned with a surprising announcement.
Daniel himself was going to testify. >> Daniel Marshall witnessed stand direct exam by attorney Pelito.
>> Daniel described his time first in juvenile hall and then an adult correctional facility. He admitted to
taking drugs inside prison and that he had been hospitalized after cutting his wrist. You know, again, when I I first
came in, I I made a lot of mistakes. Um, and one of those mistakes was, you know,
experimenting a little bit with meth and then a lot with uh heroin. And I I ended
up using heroin pretty consistently for a little over a year. >> That included injecting it.
>> It did. Yeah. Eventually, it got to the point where I was I had my own rig, as
they call it, syringe. But Daniel said he stopped using drugs when he became involved with groups like
TED X inside the prison. >> Have you learned anything in any of these groups about responsibility for
your own behavior? >> I have. Yeah. Um that was mainly through errors and criminal thinking.
>> Can you tell the court a little bit about what you learned? >> Sure. Um, I guess what it comes down to
is like the main errors in criminal thinking is like the selfishness behind it and the the self-centerness behind
it. Not taking into account how your actions affect those around you and affect other people in negative ways.
You know, again, like feeling entitled, you know, feeling like it's all about you or feeling um
like you you can like the rules don't apply, I guess. Um and part of um breaking that way of thinking is
uh accepting responsibility for your mistakes and for your actions, you know, and and acknowledging and beginning to,
you know, like work through what the things that you have done have done to other people. I guess
>> Daniel Marsh insisted that he was a changed man, no longer the troubled child who had viciously murdered two
people. >> I mean, it's night and day, man. It's it's completely different. You know, I
no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of
my my anger and hate. And for the first time, he addressed his victim's families.
>> Nothing I ever say or do will ever be enough, but I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm sorry.
I'm I'm sorry I took them away from you. I'm sorry for all the pain that I've caused you.
I'm sorry for the pain that I'm sure I'm still causing you. I'm sorry for every horrible thing that you've gone through
because of me. I'm sorry for everything. And if I could undo it, I would. I I and I know that until
I truly process what I did, the then I can't really give you the apology that you deserve.
I I can't even bring myself to look at you. But I I really and and I know you don't
think I'm being genuine, but I just really hope that at least to some extent you're able
to receive this because I'm truly sorry. >> But for Chip's daughter, Mary, that apology
didn't sound sincere. for me to be convinced that he's sorry for what he did would be for him to talk
about it and to say I did that and that was awful. And he really even in his apology
all he said was that was another me. That was a dark me. You know that's it it it
he wasn't willing to embrace that that really was him. At the opening of the last day of the
hearing, Daniel Marsh smiled and exchanged pleasantries with his lawyers as they waited for the judge to enter
the chamber. Okay, madame clerk, let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William
Marsh, case JD18-332. And uh what I have before me is a written court order. >> Daniel looked down as the judge read
from his order. >> The legal basis of the remand was the November 9th, 2016 passage of
Proposition 57. After going over the details of the crime in the case against Daniel, the
judge announced his decision. In conclusion, the seriousness of the offense, both in terms of its
sophistication and the gravity, along with the finding that Marsh has made little progress in rehabilitation in the
past 5 years, support the ultimate ruling of this court to transfer the case to adult criminal court.
Daniel's original sentence, a minimum of 52 years in prison would stand. As a judge announced his verdict, the
courtroom remained silent. Daniel kept his eyes locked on the floor and didn't visibly react, but Claudia and Chip's
family members did. They gathered to hug each other and cry. We did it. We did it. We did it. You did
it. >> And yet, it was still not over. Daniel's legal team continued to pursue appeals
in the wake of yet another new California state bill that went into effect in January 2019.
This one would prohibit 14 and 15y olds from ever being tried as adults, even killers.
To me, this is terrorizing. Although Victoria had voted for Prop 57, she actively protested against this
newest state law known as Senate Bill 1391 with Daniel Marsh on her mind. I realize that this man is not the
typical juvenile offender. However, the passage of this bill will make all juvenile offenders one and the same.
There will be no discernment and no responsibility. If 1391 is passed, the man who murdered
my parents and many others like him will be released into society at age 25. In response to Senate Bill 1391,
Daniel's defense team appealed his 52-year prison sentence, arguing that this latest new law should be
retroactively applied to his case. It raised the possibility that once again Daniel could be eligible for an early
release. He was not giving up on getting out. >> The the overwhelming amount of fear that
I had of him knowing first of all knowing us. >> That's Sarah Rice, Claudia Mopin's
granddaughter. >> He knows our names. Of course he does. He's seen us in court. And then it was the capacity that he
could get back on the streets and do what he's done again. >> Yes. >> That fear is overwhelming. And I was
thinking about every little kid and every woman that was running on the streets or a family that was walking in
a park or an individual that was sleeping in their home. Daniel's latest appeal made its way to
the California Supreme Court in 2021, but was sent back to a lower court the next year. The state supreme court
ultimately rejected the appeal in 2023. So, at least for now, Daniel Marsh remains in prison. According to the
correctional facility where he is currently being housed, Daniel will be eligible for parole in December 2036.
He'll be 39 years old, but that's subject to change. Even behind bars, Daniel Marsh has left a deep mark on
many of those involved in his case. My experience is if you work in crime, uh there's always going to be one or two
cases that are just not going to go away. They're going to haunt you in the sense of uh I always remember him. He's
indelible to me. >> When I spoke with Dr. Matthew Julier again in 2025, he said his thinking about Daniel Marsh
had evolved since our first conversation. Yeah, I have had experiences in my life
that um have also made me much more attuned to the experience of of being a victim and um it it has changed me. It's
changed my process and and meeting over 100 kids that have killed people now. Um
I have a totally different I I think I would approach Daniel very differently than I did in 2018. he should be um the
kid that that deserves different consequences um different considerations. He will
always be a psychopath and that there would be grave danger to to letting him out.
As for Chip and Claudia's family, they still grieve deeply. It's impossible to overstate the trauma
caused not only by Daniel Marsh's actions, but by the investigation that followed. If you remember, in the early
days after the murders, one of Chip Norup's grandsons, Tony, was mistakenly identified as the possible perpetrator.
that created tremendous stress and financial problems for him and his family. In October 2016,
at age 31, Tony died by suicide, his family, including his father Robert and brother
Oliver, were left to grieve yet another terrible loss. This case has left a mark on me, too.
With all the killers I've met, even spoken to, I've never encountered anyone so unknowable as Daniel Marsh.
Daniel's crimes still have ripple effects to this day. Victoria Herd and Sarah Rice now work with other families
who have been harmed by violent crime and continue to advocate changes to state law. So people like Daniel Marsh
never walk free and they continue to share memories of Chip and Claudia because you know at the end of the day
for me I have a responsibility and my responsibility is to show the world who my grandmother was
>> and the life that she lived not the life that she died by. >> Not the way that she died. Yeah.
Chip and Claudia's family remember them for everything they created. The years of joy, laughter, and music.
This is Victoria. I never remember a day that I didn't speak with her or love her or ask her
for direction or giggle with her. Um, she was my world. >> Mary Northup also remembers walking
nearly every day with her father Chip, catching up on their lives. He had this voice too sometimes, you
know, Mary, you know, you could hear it and and made me feel good to know it was
there. You can hear Claudia and Chip enjoy the festivities of Claudia's 75th birthday
party. It was held just a year before the two were killed. They laughed and they sang with friends.
>> Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. >> The memory of Claudia and Chip lives on
through their family while the man who took their lives and fantasize about taking others
sits behind bars for now. He will never understand how wonderful they were and are.
This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. This series was reported by me, Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our
producer. Mora Walls is our story editor and Jamie Benson is the senior producer.
Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 Hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard along with 48 Hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo.
This podcast was written and produced by Carara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan
Nadulski, and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Carara Schillin. Our executive producers
at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian Enright. Original theme and music by Hans Del
Shei with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Fendo Fulton is our fact checker. Our
production manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating
and review. It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15
Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, check out the rest of our 48 hours podcasts by searching 48 hours on your favorite
podcast app. Thanks for listening.

Claudia and Chip fell in love in their golden years, surrounded by children and grandchildren. But on the night of Saturday, April 13, 2013, their 17 years of marriage came to a brutal end: stabbed to death inside their Davis, California home.

Join 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty for "Fifteen: Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders," a six-episode podcast that explores one of California's most chilling and notorious crimes."

00:00 Episode 1 27:27 Episode 2 54:00 Episode 3 1:22:36 Episode 4 1:58:08 Episode 5 2:37:46 Episode 6

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Daniel Marsh, 15, brutally murdered Claudia Mopin and Chip Northup, leading to a complex trial and ongoing legal battles over his potential release.

Key points

A Joyous Union. Claudia marries Chip Northup, blending their families in a loving ceremony.
The Brutal Crime Scene. Police discover the horrific details of the double homicide.
Suspicion and Grief. The family faces police scrutiny while mourning their loved ones.
A Strange Tip. An anonymous caller reveals shocking details about a double homicide, leading police to a suspect.
Daniel's Confession. Alvaro Garbe recalls the chilling moment Daniel Marsh confessed to the murders.
The Break-In. Daniel's girlfriend panics as she realizes someone has broken into her house.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

You have a choice in this moment.

Victoria recalls her mother's words during a moment of despair.

16:10WatchOct 25, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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