Episode 722: Sallie the Man-Hater | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos. I'm Molina. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. [music] >> And again. It's in the morning.
[singing] >> I want to add like a little like clink cheers effect to that. >> I know. We need to add a cheers uh sound
effect of some sort. >> Yeah. like >> cuz it's it's a it's a different vibe in the morning.
>> It is. >> It's a good vibe in the morning. >> I love the morning vibe. I you know,
[clears throat] >> for the past few years, I probably would have been pretty feeling rank ass about
waking up this early and recording. >> This morning I woke up early. I said, I'm so excited to go record with my
sister today. >> Yeah, I'm so I'm I'm I love it in here. >> It's the vibes [laughter] are [ __ ]
impeccable. So happy. So happy to talk to you. So happy to talk to these fine folks out there.
>> Happy that you guys are ready for a [ __ ] Twilight guys. >> Killing us with those comments.
>> I'm crying. I have eye patches on right now. Like little uh [laughter] >> I feel like when you say eye patch,
people picture like that lady from >> under eye patch. >> Under eye patch. Thank you. What's the
the um Twin Peaks? That lady. >> Oh, there you go. Yeah. >> But uh but yeah, I'm so [ __ ] excited.
We will be doing Twilight for November bonus episode. >> So excited about it. Please, if you ha
if you haven't ever watched it, now's the time. >> Give it a watch so we can we can discuss
it together. I'm serious. You guys had us like rolling on the floor laughing with your comments.
>> Um, I love that you appreciated that episode, the Cryptids of the Midwest. >> It was so fun. That was a fun [ __ ]
episode to record. >> I saw so many people say like, "This felt like 2018." Which made me so happy.
>> Cryptids. It was mini morbid. We were goofy. like cuz it's just >> this is just natural
>> how happy we feel right now. And it feels good that it's coming out and that you guys are feeling it.
>> Uh cuz that's all we want this to be is just, you know, some fun and some some
serious moments, but some fun along the way. >> I see what you did there. >> Some some serious moments. Some serious
XM moments. Uh [laughter] many of them some serious XM media moments. >> Yeah. you know. Uh but but yeah, we've
we've had a lot of fun. So, I'm excited to do Twilight. >> I'm so excited for Twilight. And who
knows, maybe we'll like spread a couple like we'll do some bonus episodes in between them that are different themed
and then maybe we'll pop up with a new moon one and we'll go through all of them.
>> We'll just throw one of the series in there. >> It's also weirdly kismmet timing because
I didn't mean this. >> No, we didn't mean this at all. I just heard that um all five movies are going
back into theaters like in a couple weeks. It might even be next week. >> Yeah. And it feels, we were just saying
it feels like November is Twilight cuz it's [singing] >> Wait, that was really beautiful. That
really was. >> I think we just harmonized. You started a little bit after me, which is
harmonizing. >> It took a moment. Yeah. >> No, but it was it worked out. >> Oh, yeah. It was on purpose. Totally.
>> Yeah. We wrote it out. >> Speaking of that, also I um I changed my alarm sound to that. M. Um, so it starts
in the morning with >> and then it goes into the >> I got to try that. >> It's a good So far I've only been trying
it this week >> cuz I was doing the Yeah, cuz um I gave John my >> my other alarm that I was using.
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz it's a great alarm. >> The sunlight one. I have that one.
>> I gave him that one. And then because I just really wanted to hatch because one
I have one for one of the kids for like a sound machine thing >> and so you can connect your account like
you can connect them all together >> and there's so many options for once I saw that you could get the great Gatsby
read to you at night on the hatch. I said well I need to get that one. >> You said say less fam.
>> Yeah. They said you want to have West Egg like lull you into sleep and I said
yep. >> And um I do you can wake up to like the LA from Gilmore. >> Yeah I did do that. That was nice, I
will say. But I could say I see that getting old. Yeah. Like if you did it every morning. It was a nice for It was
a nice one for like a week and then I moved away from it. I think it's these alarms. I feel like you need to rotate
them. >> Yeah. Cuz you'll ruin too many times and you're going to be like, I hate this
sound. In high school, I used to set um I feel like I forget how I did it, but you could like set like certain songs to
be your alarm, like legitimate songs. And I learned quickly that you just shouldn't do that. Yeah. Like
>> you ruined that >> necessarily, you know, like your favorite songs. >> Yeah. >> Something like a ha haha is
>> honestly it's just cuz it's the hatch is also like a sunlight alarm. So it does
that like sunlight too >> and you get that that and honestly that like beginning riff of
like that guitar riff is sexy. >> That's a sexy way to wake up. >> It gets you up that I was like you know
maybe I'll become a vampire today. I don't know. Maybe I'll be that girl TM. >> Yeah, maybe I will. Okay,
>> I think you already are that girl TM, but yeah, you bet. >> Appreciate. >> Totally, girl.
>> Also, someone in the comments and we'll talk about it on the bonus episode note
like way more. Somebody in the comments said uh that they are no team except for
Bella's dad. [laughter] >> And honestly, that's what watching as an adult will do.
>> I said that's that's immaturing is becoming a Charlie Swan. Team Charlie Swan. Yeah, cuz I was like I think I
read the Twilight like and again we'll get way more into it, but I think I read all the Twilight books in like middle
school and then the movies came out when I was in like seventh or eighth grade. So I was like fully like in with Jacob
and Edward. I was fully team Edward. >> Yeah. >> But watching now you're like Charlie
Swan is a zatty. >> Yeah, I kind of realized that right off the bat to be honest.
>> Well, you were a little bit older. I was a little older but I but I was not team
Charlie. I was I was still a team Edward. I don't really think there was team Charlie back then. It was simply
>> Jacob or or Edward, >> but so much to talk about in the bonus episode. I am >> so excited.
>> So soon because Elena goes, we can record that like I'm ready. Like let's [laughter]
talk about it. >> But today we're going to be talking about one a wild haunting.
>> Uh one that I have wanted to cover actually. I think I think that when we um talked to Sam and Colby about a
couple of places they'd been, they mentioned this house. >> Oh, I think you're right.
>> And some crazy [ __ ] happened to them in this house. >> I think you're exactly um Exactly right.
>> You know, check out Yeah. You know, Karen and George. >> I know. As I said that, I [laughter] was
like, I am literally shouting out queens. Our queens. Uh but yeah, I think so. I'm fairly certain, unless I'm
completely insane, which is a very >> thing that could happen, that they probably have a video about this house.
So, >> I'll look it up just to make sure you're not a liar, but I think you're right.
>> If they do, you should go look at the video after this because they're, you know, adorable. Uh, so this is the Sally
House or um what Dave has entitled this episode, which made me um laugh was Sally the Manhater.
>> Sally the Manhater. >> Sally the Manhater. >> Yeah. Um they have a video Sam and Colby
just to go back really quick. Our demonic encounter at Haunted Sally House. >> See? Yeah. So So go watch that after.
All right. So let's talk about Sally House. Huh. So, by the time Deb met Tony, which like Deb and Tony love,
>> could you get a better couple? >> No. >> Uh, in the early 1990s, she had already
lived more of her life in 29 years than most people do in a lifetime. >> She had one of those lives, so which you
understand. >> Yeah. >> Um to to a degree, maybe like to a deb degree. Um, you know, we'll see perhaps.
I think I think it's all relative. All right. Um, so she left home at age 16. Um, and she'd spent years moving around
the Midwest from one state to another. Um, she'd married and divorced three times before finally landing in Kansas
in early 1992 just after leaving her third husband. >> Damn. 29. >> Yeah, >> that's She's been three.
>> That sucks. >> Yeah. >> Tony Pikman is, you know, he was in a similar situation when when they met.
Uh, he had just gone through a difficult breakup, a bad marriage, and they hit it
off immediately. >> Yeah. I mean, that that'll bond you. >> Yeah. According to Deb, from the moment
they met, quote, "Not a day passed that we did not call or see each other." >> Cute.
>> They dated for a brief period before Tony asked Deb to move in with him a few
months later. And not long after, he proposed and they set a date for a February wedding.
>> Beautiful. >> Adorable. Not long after the proposal, the couple learned that Deb was
pregnant. >> Oh, they're in love. They moved up the date of the wedding to November 1992 and
made everything official at the courthouse. >> I love a November wedding. >> A November wedding. Look at that.
November. >> I know. >> At the time, Tony and Deb were sharing a small one-bedroom apartment in um Aches,
Kansas, which is a small city in the northeast part of the state. >> Uh it's along the uh Missouri River,
>> Missouri. >> But now Missouri. So, with a baby on the way though, the couple knew they were
going to need more space. They needed a bigger place to live. So, they started looking for homes to rent. Uh Deb said,
"We knew that finding our ideal house was not going to be easy. In a small town, you all you all but have to know
someone to get a decent place to rent. >> Makes sense. >> So Deb and Tony looked at a few places
that she described as dumps before a tip, which I feel like everybody thinks that like before you get your actual
like >> the place you love, you're like everything else was a [ __ ] dump. >> Yes.
>> Just [ __ ] pile. >> I think about my first apartment. Honey, that place was a dump.
>> And and at the And it's like a nice place at the time. >> Oh, it was at at the time I was like,
>> this is living but dumb. And then I look back and I'm like, it was weird to walk
past like a bunch of natty ice on the [ __ ] lawn every morning. So many college kids lived in that place. Uh,
but then they got a tip from Tony's brother, George, that led them to a small rental home a few blocks from the
banks of the river. >> And it was conveniently located next door to George and his wife, his
brother. >> Nice. >> Um, the house was so cute. >> Yeah. Like he's like, you know, you can
just live next to me. >> Yeah. >> So, the house was built in the late 19th century. It was the oldest on the block
and it was a little rundown, but it seemed to have everything that Tony and Deb were looking for. She later said,
"When we found this house, it seemed perfect for us. It was spacious. It had several bedrooms. It was just the
perfect house." >> Nice. >> According to the landlord, who just pro purchased the property a month before
that, he planned to work on the outside of the house over time, but he'd done a fairly decent makeover on the inside.
>> Cool. After all the formalities were taken care of, they moved into the house
in December with Deb finally feeling like everything was falling into place. >> Oh no.
>> That feeling of peace and contentment did not last long because this is a story on morbid. We're [laughter] not
telling you like this tale that just went well. >> And then they had their baby and life
was beautiful. Keep it weird. >> The end. See you for Twilight. [laughter] Um so yeah, it didn't last long. On the
evening of Valentine's Day 1993, Deb came home to find that Tony had made a large dinner for them to celebrate the
holiday and the fact that they were finally settled in the house. After dinner, they were sitting on the couch
probably just being like in love. >> I love you. I love you. >> I love you. >> And that's when the overhead light began
the cycle of, you know, through dimming and turning on several times. >> Okay, that would freak me out, but also
at the same time, I'd be like, old house. >> Here's the thing. My lights do that a
lot. Yeah, it's just one of the like they just they dim, they turn to full brightness, then they kind of like
settle. >> We grew up in a haunted house. >> Haunted house. >> Yeah. And the way they described it was
it seemed like someone was adjusting the dimmer switch. >> Okay. >> Like putting it down and then full
brightness, then down again. >> Okay. >> The problem was though, the home didn't
have dimmer switches. >> Yeah, that's a problem. >> The fact that it was dimming and getting
to full brightness was a little weird. Uh and they just couldn't account for what was happening. So they were like,
"That was weird." >> Yeah. >> The lighting problems continued off and on for a period of a few weeks and was
eventually accompanied by the television turning on and off by itself. >> Oo, it's giving poltergeist.
>> Yeah. So, but they looked at it very logically. They said, "Okay, we have some kind of electrical problem."
Obviously, think I would look at it that way. Well, I would just Now, >> you just said Poltergeist, right?
>> Me, I'd be like, "Oh, [ __ ] poltergeist." Poltergeist. >> Before I did this show, I'd be like,
"Oh, I should call Papa. That's an electricity problem. >> Let me call my dad." >> Yeah. So Tony said he would call the
landlord, not my dad, uh to get everything worked out. But he also joked, "We must have a ghost."
>> Oh, no. Fortunately, >> now you've acknowledged [laughter] it. >> Strangely, Deb calls the night Tony made
the joke as the last time they had any trouble with the lights. >> Huh. Which is interesting. In
retrospect, she wonders whether the electrical problems were quote a way to get our attention or be noticed. And
once they got it, they're like, "We gotcha." >> Oh, >> yeah. In the weeks that followed, neither Deb
nor Tony noticed any unusual activity in the house at all. >> Okay. >> But the animals, they had three cats and
a dog. >> Same. >> Oh my god. You I didn't even think about >> parallel lives. >> They all seemed very uncomfortable and
restless a lot of the times. >> For instance, before the baby furniture had been delivered and installed in the
nursery, their dog Sasha would often sit outside the empty room snarling or emitting a low growl.
>> Oh, [ __ ] though, as far as Tony and Deb could tell, the room was completely
empty. There was no like mice or anything else in there. >> That room was full of something. That
room was chalk full of chalk full of bad [ __ ] >> This behavior continued for several
weeks before just inexplicably ending one afternoon. >> And after that, Sasha seemed to have no
problem entering the soontobe nursery. >> That's weird. So, it's like there was something in there for a while and then
it left. Well, I wonder if it was because it was empty. Whatever it was felt like comfortable in there or like
>> But then when they started moving stuff in it moved. >> Yeah, maybe. >> For whatever reason.
>> Very interesting. >> Maybe they were nice and they were like, "Fuck, a baby's going to live here. I
got to >> Yeah, I got to get out of here." Uh, well, I've never heard of a haunting
quite like this one where it's like things happened almost to get their attention and then they stop.
>> That is interesting. >> Or they start, they piss off the dog, then they stop. Yeah. You know, like
usually things don't stop and start, they like keep going. >> Yeah. And ramp up over time. I don't
I've never actually sat down and listened to like the full gamut of this uh story. So, I'm excited.
>> It's gnarly in there. Like the if you watch the Sam and Colby episode, they get like scratched and [ __ ] Like it's
gnarly. Like it >> it's intense in there. >> Yeah. I don't like places where you get
scratched. That's not my thing. >> Now, the first major event happened in late March 1993. Deb was in her third
trimester at the time and due to the pregnancy, she found the couple's water bed a little uncomfortable to sleep in,
which I cannot [ __ ] imagine sleeping on a water bed when I was in my third trimester.
>> I would have popped a hole in it >> 100%. >> So instead, she was sleeping downstairs
on the couch in the living room just to get any kind of relief. [laughter] Um >> when it's hard to like even lay properly
when you're that pregnant, I'm sure >> cuz you really can't. >> Yeah. Now, one evening, Deb was woken
from sleep around 3:30 a.m. by what she described as a blood curdling scream, then several loud, quick thumps coming
down the stairs. >> Oh, just that. >> Yeah. Like somebody screamed and then like fell down the stairs.
>> The [ __ ] And it's only her and her husband. >> In her semic-conscious state, she
immediately feared someone had broken into the house and attacked Tony. but before she could even sit up because my
girl Deb was like, "Someone's attacking Tony. I may be in my third trimester, but I'm gonna go help that man." Like,
that's that's queen [ __ ] >> Yeah, that's wife [ __ ] >> Yeah, that's wife. >> That's a wifey for lifey.
>> So, she she was terrified, but before she could even sit up, she felt something heavy strike her in the face
and chest as though someone had slammed into her with their full weight. >> Oh, you better back off my my pregnant
girl. >> Yeah. terrified. She screamed at the top of her lungs, which brought Tony running
from the second floor to check on her >> for several minutes. They just they just
continued screaming, both of them. Like they was like, "Ah, like what's going on?" [laughter]
>> That's kind of iconic. >> And then he said and then it occurred to Tony that they had no idea what they
were screaming. [laughter] >> I love these people. They're so real for that. >> They're so real for that. [laughter]
Like that's the realest [ __ ] it is. >> Because to be quite honest, >> same. If I thought someone was attacking
John and then an unseen entity slammed into me downstairs, >> scream for a while.
>> I would scream and then I know he would come screaming down the stairs and then
we would all just scream and we too would be like, >> "What exactly are we screaming?"
[laughter] >> The screams we would scrumpt before realizing, "What are we scrumping
about?" >> realizing we're doing nothing but screaming. >> Yeah. Now, once she had calmed down, Deb
tried to explain to her husband what had happened, but she found it a little difficult to describe. She's like, "I
don't know. Like, someone hit me. >> I'm going to sound cuckoo." >> Ultimately, they decided she must have
been dreaming. And the scream and thumping sound she heard probably came maybe from like the cats like running
really. >> Oh, honey. >> Cuz you know, cats can go, you know, they can go crazy.
>> They get the zoo and they get the zooies at 3:00 a.m. So, it's not >> three of them. So like if three of them
are pounding down the stairs, you know, like it can sound a little in your tired
state, it can probably sound very loud. >> Yeah. And I mean a lot of times they'll
like meow at each other like loudly. >> Yeah. Like so so it could sound like screaming.
>> Exactly. >> And they said the heavy blow she felt around her chest and body could have
also been one of the cats jumping onto her from the top edge of the couch. >> 100%. In fact, the cats did seem
particularly agitated at that moment. So the whole thing made sense to them. They
were like, "Look at these two myth busting." >> Yeah. >> Over here, they're just mythb like
debunked. >> Now, it was only later that Deb wondered what had caused the animals to be so
agitated in the first place. >> Yeah. >> Cuz this wasn't regular zooies. Like, they were
>> You can distinguish, right? >> After being woken in terror that night, things in the house went back to normal
and remained that way until that summer when Deb gave birth to their son Taylor in mid June. However, in the weeks after
he was born, Deb began to notice strange and like little subtle things that she couldn't really explain. And it occurred
most often while Tony was away at work. >> Oh, I hate that. Which must have been
really annoying cuz she's like, "Everybody probably thinks I'm crazy and making >> Now, at first, the inexplicable
incidents Deb noticed were pretty small. uh like you know on multiple occasions after putting Taylor in his crib for a
nap or something Deb would go to the kitchen to bake or prepare dinner and she tended to be a little forgetful. So
she would often set a timer for herself to know when to check the oven. >> Okay.
>> But on several occasions she would return to the kitchen a few minutes after setting the timer to find that it
either either had been reset to have far more or less time than she'd initially set it for. That is such a dick move.
>> That's the thing. Such a dick move. >> What an [ __ ] move. >> I would also be so scared that there was
somebody lurking in my walls. >> Honestly, I like I think my first thought would not even be ghost in this
moment. I'd be like, "Oh, there's somebody in here." >> And it's like, not only are you trying
to like burn my house down essentially, but also >> you're ruining my baking. I'm going to
[ __ ] burn whatever I'm making. You [ __ ] >> Yeah. Or undercook it and then have to
like set this [ __ ] all over again. Exactly. [ __ ] off. Now on at other times she would be sitting in the living room
reading or watching TV when the timer on the oven would go off on its own without
having been set and without anything in the oven >> and she's like don't wake up my [ __ ]
Yeah. Now initially Deb kept these instances to herself and she was just like you know what maybe I'm being
careless. I'm tired. I just had a baby. Yeah. >> Maybe I'm just Yeah. Maybe I'm just like
setting things by accident. But about a month after the baby was born, something
happened in this house that could not be ignored or explained away as easy. So far, they've been able to explain away.
Just mythbust, but >> I'm so scared right now. >> In August, a little over a month after
Taylor was born, Deb's sister Karen came to stay with them for a few weeks just to visit and help out with the baby.
Being a good sister. One afternoon, while Tony was hanging photos in the upstairs hallway, he heard a strange
shuffling noise coming from the nursery, which was just a few feet away from him.
So, he stuck his head in the room to check on the baby. And he was surprised to find that several of the stuffed toys
that were previously placed around the room had been moved and were now arranged in a circle at the center of
the room, all facing outward. [screaming] >> I hate that a lot. Ew. Oh my god, the
chill. that is courarssing throughout my [ __ ] >> body. He's in a crib. Like it's not
>> I'm wearing a shacket and I'm freezing. >> Yeah. >> All facing outward, too. >> No, that's the part that I really It's
the circle in the outward. Please, do you see my goosebumps across the room? Let me roll up my shacket.
>> Yeah, my shacket. >> Ew. >> Yeah. >> No, I You move out that very day. I don't care where you live next door with
your sister. I would literally show up at your front door with all of my belongings and say, "Hi, I live here
now." >> Yep. Here I Here I am. >> Ew. Yeah. And Tony had put the baby like down himself for the nap.
[laughter] He was like, "I didn't do it." He said he'd been in the hallway ever since hanging hanging things. He
had nobody in there. He said he would have seen if Deborah, her sister, had gone in and somehow arranged toys on the
floor. >> Why does that literally make me want to throw >> It's so weird. And it's it's just like
why why did you do that? >> Yeah. So he calls out for them like Deb and Karen who were sitting in the living
room downstairs and they were horrified and surprised by this whole thing. And Deb later said, "We sort of played it
off as if someone had gotten into the house and played a little prank." >> Okay.
>> Which I was like, >> "Okay, [gasps] Deb." >> But here's the thing. Since they were
young, Tony and his brother George had been engaged in a very light-hearted and longunning prank war with each other.
Cuz remember, they live right next door. >> Yep. >> So they couldn't figure out how that he
had done it. They're like, "Damn, good." >> They were like, "Wow, George, that was
crazy." Not even going to ask how you did it. Like they were just like, "Totally George."
>> That also was probably like subconsciously them being like mechanism. >> George, it was George. It's just
[laughter] so funny. >> They were like, "Yeah, I don't know how George did that, but like [ __ ] George."
>> That was crazy. >> Not even going to confirm it was him. >> George is like, "What?" George is like,
"That's a weird [ __ ] I did not crawl in your baby's room and rearrange his toys." George said that's simply
demonic. Yeah. He was like, "Pranks be damned." Like I I'm not going that far. >> No.
>> So Deb laughed it off, you know. She's like, "Oh, George." You know, just George being George.
>> Yeah. She just gathered up the toys from the floor, put them back where they belonged, and she was like, "Bye."
[laughter] >> No. >> Oh, no. >> Just a few minutes later, they all heard the shuffling sound again, and when they
returned to the nursery, >> the toys were all back in the circle. >> No. Shut the [ __ ] up and stop telling me
that. >> Yeah. Deb later said, "The three of us stood there for the longest time just
shifting our eyes around the room and eyeing each other. They looked around the room and they were like, "Okay, we
need to figure out how I love it. They're like, "We need to figure out how George pulled off this elaborate [ __ ]
prank >> again." >> But they found nothing. Nothing that suggested that anyone else had been in
that room. That the windows were closed and locked. No one in the closet. There was no other way to get in there. They
could not figure it out. Ew. [music] >> [bell] [music] >> So although the circle of toys was I at
its root harmless, I mean like no one got hurt. Yeah. You know, and they were convincing themselves that George did
somehow. >> The experience was still unnerving because they all knew that it wasn't
George. They were just convincing themselves >> like I was saying earlier. Exactly.
>> So, they all slept in the living room downstairs that night, >> including the baby. [laughter]
>> I'm I'm so glad to hear that. I'm like, "Stop putting that baby in there." >> And Tony said, "That night really put a
chill down our spines." >> Yeah. >> To actually have something physically move in a matter of minutes, it scared
us. >> And like twice. >> Yeah. The next day, Deb called her sister-in-law, Jeanie, who she knew had
been at the house the previous afternoon. And not wanting to sound like she was losing her mind, Deb just kind
of asked a few gentle questions of Where where was George? >> asking whether she had noticed anything
strange when she was at the house the previous day until she eventually just outright asked whether she'd moved
anything around the nursery. And sensing that Deb was very anxious, Jeanie was like, "No, I have not touched anything
in your house. Like, no way." >> And she was fairly certain that George had not either. She was like, "I don't
think he's gone over your house." >> I didn't see him crawling in the windows at any point yesterday.
>> Like very quickly. I don't see him like using fishing line to like move all [laughter] of them back. That's exactly
what I was picturing. But Deb explained why she was asking and Jeanie paused before telling her the day before that
when she was at the house, she didn't see anything strange, but she said, "I did get a very weird feeling while I was
there." >> Ooh. >> She couldn't quite put her finger on it, but Jeanie said she felt this like
strange cold sensation, and when she went into the nursery, she got this distinct feeling of unease.
>> She said as though she wasn't wanted in there. >> And she said, "I it was it was really
strange. I can't explain it. >> Oh, that's really >> So, like just her being like, "You know
what? I didn't see anything, but like I felt some [ __ ] in there." >> Yeah. >> Now, the days after this, Deb, Tony, and
Karen began noticing other weird things around the house. They'd turn the lights
off before leaving a room only to reach the bottom of the stairs and look up to see the lights were back on.
>> And that would be [ __ ] annoying because electricity is not >> electricity. Yeah. And in the nursery,
they could hear unusual sounds coming through the baby monitor, but when they checked the room, nothing was there. I
got to tell you, when I have kids, that's my biggest fear. Baby monitor, like even babysitting back in the day, I
babysat at like the height of paranormal activity. And I used to get so [ __ ] nervous checking the baby monitors.
>> See or hear something horrifying. I was always terrified I was going to see something horrifying on it
>> and have to go in there and rescue the baby, too. When you're like 17 and you're solely responsible for a baby and
you're afraid it might get demonically possessed, that's a lot. >> Yeah. >> That still lives in my nervous system. I
think I think we we can all we can all, you know, relate to that feeling. >> I think so.
>> Cuz I don't want to be in charge. I don't want to be in charge of someone I love who is being demonically possessed.
>> Yeah. >> Never mind a random person that I'm just in charge of for a job. >> I Yeah. Most of the babies that I
babysat weren't super random. Like I cared about them. So true. >> It was. >> So you were really might be why I have
IBS. >> Maybe. >> You never know. >> You know what? That is why you have IBS. Could be.
>> I'm declaring it right now. >> The fear of paranormal activity whilst babysitting. [snorts]
>> Fear of a child becoming demonically possessed while in your care is the reason you have IBS today.
>> Can you write me a script for that? >> Clock it in. [laughter] Let's go. So since they moved in, Deb
had managed to write off a lot of these strange incidents as you know a product of her imagination just misperceptions
being tired sleep deprived you know postpartum all that stuff. Now, when she considered everything together though,
it occurred to her that >> they might be dealing some with something paranormal 100%.
>> Because again, every like everything like by itself independently she could write off a little bit, but put it all
together and it's like >> even more terrifying was the idea that while it was entirely unlikely, it was
possible that someone had been breaking into the house or worse had been hiding in the house like I said
>> and coming out at night while everyone was asleep. >> Yeah, [ __ ] that. not wanting to linger
too long on those thoughts of like an intruder, she went back to her thoughts of like I bet it's a ghost. [laughter]
>> So, and she said later she said since it's playing with the toys, maybe it's a
child ghost. >> Okay. >> And um I think Jeanie had said that to uh to Deb cuz she knew that she seemed
worried. She was like, "You know what? It's playing with his to maybe this is a kid."
>> A little kid like running around your house >> and it's it's got like prank energy. So,
I get I get that. And then she said also maybe it's a nurturing woman who's trying to entertain the baby,
>> which is also a very nice thing to like that's some si like sister-in-law energy
right there. Like she could tell Deb was very nervous and anxious and like really
upset by it and she's like I bet it's just a little kid having some fun. Or even better, I bet it's a mom who's just
trying to make your kid baby happy. >> Yeah. Like you know, jumping on your chest in the middle of the night. And
you know, unfortunately neither of these options seemed pretty calming to Deb. She was like, "That's also terrifying."
So, like, as a new mom or really any any kind of mom, I don't think you want another mom in your house covering. I
don't want another mom. No. >> Now, a few days later, Tony's other brother, Larry, Tony, Larry, and George
obsessed. >> He visited and the couple told him about having found those toys in a circle in
the nursery. And Larry had always been more skeptical and analytical, you know, especially of among the brothers. And
Tony had that he, you know, he kind of hoped his brother's like sensible perspective might help make them feel
better. >> Yeah. >> Uh, at first when they explained everything that had happened in the
house, Larry assumed they were joking. >> He was like, "No, like that didn't happen." He later told Deb and Tony,
"The only thing that stopped me from thinking that you were all crazy was the fact that I know all of you too well."
>> Oh. [laughter] >> He's like, "Listen, I really thought you were [ __ ] tapped." He was like,
"Anyone else will think you're crazy, but I just know you guys, so I know you're not." And like you wouldn't make
that up. >> Larry suggested that they conduct a test and they and he said, "Why don't you
place one of the stuffed bears on the rocking chair in the nursery and periodically check to see if any point
it gets moved to a different location?" Yeah, I like that. He says scientific method.
>> Exactly. He said hypothesis. Let's go. So since they knew they were the only ones in the house, the only other
explanation would be of a paranormal nature. So let's try on out. >> Let's go. For the rest of the evening,
Tony, Deb, Karen, and Larry sat together talking in the living room, periodically
getting up to check the bear status. Uh, but after several hours passed and nothing changed, Larry suggested they
maybe alter their plan. And he said, "Why don't we put the toys in a circle on the floor as they had been a few days
earlier to see if it could prompt a reaction?" >> Okay, >> so he's Look at him. Look at him
switching it up and being like, "Okay, that didn't work. Let's try another thing."
>> Different hypothesis, Larry. 20 minutes later, they returned to the room and found the toys arranged in the circle
just as they had left him. But them like, you know, nothing changed. >> Nothing had moved.
>> So, they're feeling defeated at this point. They're like, "Okay, we really tried to get a reaction out of this
thing and nothing's happening." >> And at this point, they were like, "Larry thinks we're lying, right?"
>> Like, like a lot goes like, "Damn it." So Deb started to escort everyone out of
the nursery when Tony stopped them and pointed out one of the toys that was still sitting on the shelf. The stuffed
bean bag teddy bear, which weighed about a pound and a half, was sitting on the shelf where Tony had placed it several
days earlier, but now it was turned to face the wall. >> No, not Blair Witch style. No.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, you're going to find some eyeballs and a cloth. >> It seems super innocuous.
>> No, it doesn't >> cuz it's so small. No, it doesn't seem innocuous at all. >> Well, and it seems like a thing like
that he could have mistakenly put it that way when he put it on the shelf. Except Karen
>> remembers. So like the the sister remembered seeing it a few hours earlier and she said, "No, it was facing out
towards the room a few hours earlier when we came in here." So she's like, "No, I remember that."
>> No, that upsets me like actually really deep into my soul. Cuz like why are you
turning the bear? Why can't he see what's happening? >> E, >> why can't he see what's happening? Why
isn't he part of this? >> No, the end of the Blair which [ __ ] me up to this day.
>> I think that's it's a perfect ending. >> I think it's a perfect ending. >> And I have chills all over my body right
now and I'm scared. >> Yeah. >> 911. I'd like to report a scare. >> Yeah. >> Like
>> what are you doing that that bear can't see it? >> No. >> Is what I want to know.
>> I hate it. >> And what did he do to be on the outs? >> Why is he in the corner?
>> I want to know what his Why is he on the outs? >> I'm going to cry. >> Yeah, I might cry right now.
>> I'm going to cry. After getting everyone's assurance that they had not moved the stuff bear, Larry told his
brother he knew someone who might be able to help. >> Okay. >> His boss's wife Barbara was a fairly
well-known psychic in spiritual circles, >> but she and her husband had just moved
to California. So, he was like, I'll reach out to her, find when they're going to be back in the area.
>> He's like, I'll set a Zoom. >> Yeah. Like, we're going to get this going in 1990 something. In the
meantime, Tony called his mother and told her the short version of what had been happening and how the incidents had
like unnerved them a lot. And she suggested, "Why don't you pack a small bag and stay with me for a few nights?"
>> That's a mama. >> This is a good families. >> It is. This is great family. >> I said, "This is a good family."
>> Well, I knew what you meant. It's a good families on both sides. >> This is a good families. You know,
>> since Karen was still staying with them for one more day, they assured Tony's
mother that they would be fine. They were like, "We don't want to like all come to your house." But that night,
they all stayed in the master bedroom together behind a locked door. So, they all packed in there.
>> Oh, man. >> The next morning, Tony drove Karen to the airport and stopped by his parents
house on the other side of town before going home that afternoon. So, um she contacted a friend of hers whose
daughter had lived in the Pikmin's house a little over a decade earlier. So, she
had lived >> Oh, she lived in the haunted house. Okay. >> Um the Sally [clears throat] house, I
got it. According to the previous tenant, there were several occasions when she would smell a bad odor in the
house. She could never find a source for it, and she frequently heard strange sounds and experience other small
disturbances over the years. >> But more importantly, the woman recalled many instances where she would have to
reprimand her son for leaving his toys all over the floor of the bedroom. And each time the boy would reply, "But
mama, I didn't play with those toys." >> Oh. which like that that's really sad and she was probably like you did cuz
they're everywhere cuz they're everywhere. Like you got it. You know, >> throughout their time in the house,
those previous tenants didn't recall anything particularly frightening or anything that made them like exceedingly
uncomfortable. >> She never acknowledged it. >> Yeah. She did, however, remember that
her daughter, whose bedroom was in the room the Pikmans used as a nursery, quote, had not only grown attached to an
imaginary playmate named Sally, but would entertain herself for hours playing with her in the closet. the womb
that I just walmed >> playing >> along with her imaginary friend named Sally in the closet.
>> Sometimes scary things actually give me the sensation of I'm about to cry and I
might cry. >> Oh my god. >> No, not actually. But like [ __ ] that's I hate that.
>> I'm wobbling in the car so hard right now. Get out of the car. >> I'm so hard.
>> Ew. to Deb, whose mind had been conjuring up all manner of terrifying explanations. The stories from Tony's
mom were actually kind of a comfort because it's like, okay, I'm not crazy. One, two, there's no intruder in my
house. I think that was honestly scarier to them than anything. They were genuinely worried someone was hiding in
their walls or attic and coming out at night. >> I get that. I was >> So, I think that was like at least cuz
they were proof. They were proof also that someone had lived peacefully >> with the with these occurrences still
happening >> with their child playing in the [ __ ] closet. >> Yeah. But they brought to mind her
previous thought that they might be sharing their home with the ghost of a child now named Sally.
>> Uhhuh. >> While the ghosts of adults seem like they could be wildly unpredictable. It
didn't seem possible that a child could have lived long enough to develop the kind of anger that would result in a lot
of harm. >> I've heard about some [ __ ] up kids. is a pretty like solid way to comfort
yourself, I think. Like that's a pretty solid defense mechanism is to be like, well, adults can be real angry and they
have a lot of years under their belt to be pissed off and bitter. >> Yeah. >> Uh kids not so much. So like, let's you
know, Sally's probably fine. >> I get it. >> So a few days later, >> like you haven't heard the stories I've
heard. >> No, they were just they were this was total defense mechanism. Now a few days
later, Larry called with news about his boss's wife, Barbara, the psychic medium. Honey the land. Honey the land.
[laughter] So, we got Sylvia coming. >> Oh god. >> Uh to ruin it. So Larry had explained
the situation and Barbara attempted to get a read on the house from where she was in California, which is wild. Uh
according to Barbara, there was the spirit of a girl in the house between 5 and 13 years old. Barbara claimed that
the spirit not only likes the house and feels comfortable there, but was protecting a baby.
>> Okay. >> Meaning Taylor. >> Yeah. Barbara also believed the movement of the toys was caused by the spirit who
was playing with them as though they were her own. >> All right. >> The psychic's recommendation was to make
it clear to the ghost that she was welcome to remain in the house, but she would have to behave and follow their
rules >> and not turn bears to face the wall. >> Don't do like a creep. >> Before ending the call, Larry had one
more bit of information that Barbara had shared with him. Throughout her read of
the house, she continuously got a name that flashed in her head. >> Sally. Now remember, this is Tony's side
of the family that got this information. Her side of the family also gave the name Sally.
>> Yeah. >> Completely independent from each other. >> Yeah. >> And it wasn't even her side of the
family. It was her side of the family's friend's daughter lived in the house was
like, "Oh yeah, my kid played with a ghost named Sally." >> Well, and also Barbara's in California
picking up on this information across the country. And it's like there's like obviously the internet was like just
starting to be a thing around this time, but like it wasn't like she could just like look up
>> No. Like look this up on the internet. >> No. >> Like that's crazy. >> Like that's nuts.
>> Wow. >> So that would be a wild moment to experience. >> Yeah. >> I would probably cry.
>> I I wouldn't even know how to handle this. And honestly, Deb was kind of relieved by this information because she
was like you said, at least it's not an intruder. It's a kid. Seems like they just want to play.
>> Yeah. >> So, I'll just I'll just lay down the law and that's it. >> All right.
>> Tony was less convinced. He said, "I wasn't a big believer in psychics." Which, like, fair.
>> Oh, yeah. >> So, I He said, "So, I kind of blew her off a little bit." >> I mean, it would be crazy though to get
the same information from two different sides of the family. It would or two different families.
>> Now, Tony had been raised though in a fairly religious family, so he never also he also never believed in ghosts.
>> Okay. He did though believe in evil and in demons. So if there was which like I
have trouble reconciling that way of thinking, but like that's not for me to decide cuz one, how is there not the
other? >> Yeah, I'm not really sure. Um but he said so if there was anything to what
Barbara had said, it did little to convince him the entity in their house was harmless cuz he was like, if
something's in here, it's probably bad. I kind of get that. I get that. So, in the days after this, Deb and Tony's
brother George tried their best to get Sally to reveal herself to them. They took photographs of your rooms. They
said, "Come on, Sally." >> Um, they just blared Mustang Sally. As soon as you said, [laughter] "Come on,
Sally. >> Come on, Sally." >> They took pictures of empty rooms. They spoke loudly as though Sally could hear
them. And one afternoon while they were in the nursery, George saw one of the stuffed bears move and started snapping
photos of every corner of the room. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Finally, when Tony called out to them,
they left the room. But when they reached the top of the stairs, George stopped in his tracks and he called out
to his brother and said, "Man, I can't move." Tony watched as George appeared to be frozen in place, his face turning
pale. >> What? Later, he explained that when he reached the top of the stairs, he felt a
rush of cold surround him and it felt as though someone was holding him in place.
>> What? >> He was literally like, "I can't move." >> What the f? I've never heard that
before. >> The incident completely caught George entirely off guard and terrified all of
them. So, Deb thought it would be a good idea for the three of them to get out of
the house for a bit and visit their parents. They were like, "We need to get out of here." cuz they've been kind of
like >> Yeah. >> Not intentionally, but like irritating. >> Yeah. Like they've been doing stuff to
get a reaction, >> agitating. So, as they were packing up what they would need for the baby, Tony
suddenly jumped up from his seat on the couch and yelled out in pain. And when Deb asked what was wrong, Tony said it
felt like something had bit or stung him. >> Oh. >> He said, "I kind of blew it off because
we were just in a hurry to get out of there." >> Yeah. >> But when they reached Tony's parents
house, the bite he'd gotten on his back was still bothering him. So Deb lifted his shirt to see what it was and she was
shocked because on Tony's back were quote three bleeding scratch marks each about five or six inches long.
>> Damn. >> Running down the center of his back. >> That's a long scratch. >> Remember Sam and Kobe got scratched.
Like who they went with got scratched >> cuz they men. >> They men. Deb took photos of the
scratches for just to document the whole incident. But otherwise they didn't know
what to think. What the [ __ ] happened here? Now, after a year in the house, they had experienced a strange variety
of phenomenon at this point. >> Violent. >> Yeah. And they were convinced at up till
this point that the house was haunted by the ghost of a little girl. But until that point, again, everything seemed
pretty harmless. A little unnerving, but harmless. But the attack on Tony completely flipped everything on his
[ __ ] ear. >> Uh Debs later said, "So many things were going through my mind. Is this a mean
spirit that we've got in our house? Do we go back in the house? Do we never go back again? We were totally clueless
about what to do next. >> Yeah. >> Now, later that afternoon, Tony and Deb considered their options and even talked
about moving out. They were going to leave. Unfortunately, though, being a young family on a single modest income,
the cost of moving to a new house was pretty much out of the question. It's not that easy.
>> No, it's not. >> So, instead, they decided to call Barbara and ask for her advice.
>> Smart. >> The psychic. >> Smart. Barbara reiterated what she told Tony's brother and said the latest, more
aggressive activity was probably Sally's way of letting the couple know she's there. He She said, "If she just floated
through the door, you wouldn't know she was there. But if she opens the door, you know she's in the room. She wants
your attention. She wants to be noticed. >> She straight up left a mark on you. >> Yeah, she's there."
>> She reminded Deb of what she told Larry before. It's their house and they need
to be firm with Sally. She said, "You have to let her know there are rules and she has to obey them. And if she
doesn't, she will be punished. >> I hate that. >> Even to Deb, a firm believer in the
supernatural, the idea of punishing a ghost seemed a little far-fetched, but she was like, "You know what?
>> What are you going to do?" >> She's like, "Like maybe banish her from the house."
>> Okay. >> But she figured Barbara knew better than she did, so she was like, "I'll just
keep listening to her." >> Finally, when Deb got around to telling Barbara about the scratches on Tony's
back, the psychic's tone did seem to change a little. She said she probably thought Tony was going to hurt the baby
and she was just trying to protect him. Now, before hanging up, Barbara repeated
the advice she'd been previously given. Be stern and firm with Sally. Let her know she can stay, but only if she
follows the rules. >> Okay. But very interesting that she said that she thought Tony was going to hurt
the baby. >> Oh, >> she does not like men. >> Is this going to be like the saddest
backstory of all time? >> Now, that night you said I won't be telling you right now. Deb, Tony, and
Tony's parents went over everything Barbara had told them, considering what their options were. Tony insisted when
it came to talking to Sally that responsibility would have to fall on Deb. He was like, "I don't believe."
>> He was like, "She will scratch the [ __ ] out of me." >> And he told her, "A ghost is something
that is supposed to be dead." And the idea of having a conversation with a dead thing was just something he
couldn't bring himself to do. He was like, "I just don't believe in this." >> Well, also, he's religious, so he's
really not to do that. >> Yeah. That night after they got home, Deb did as Barbara suggested, standing
in the nursery, she reprimanded Sally for what she had done to Tony and reminded the spirit that she was
welcome, but only if she followed the rules. Just as Deb was finishing her lecture, the phone rang. And it was
Barbara. I thought you were going to say, "And no one was there." >> And it was Sally being like,
>> "Okay, >> [ __ ] you, bitch." [laughter] >> Imagine, "You're ruining my life. You're
ruining my life." >> No, it was Barbara. and she said she would be coming to Kansas City the
following day for an interview and wondered if she could come by the house. She assured Je Deb there wasn't anything
to be ass concerned about, but she wanted to make sure she was right in what she had told them. All right, cool.
I'd be like, "Thanks, girl. Thanks for that." So Deb told her it would be fine for her to come to house. And then
before ending the call, Barbara told her it might be a good idea to tell Sally about Barbara's upcoming visit to the
house so she wasn't caught off guard. >> Oh god. >> I was like, I would hate this. I'd be
like, I don't want to live this life. >> No. Now, the next morning with Barbara set to arrive later that evening, Deb
thought it might be their best in their best interest to learn a little bit about the house. Yeah, just be prepared.
>> Oh, go get the microf fish. Yeah, maybe it'll clarify some things. So, at the
library, she sat down, Deb sat down with that microfich and some records uh to learn who owned the place in the past.
You know, go through the whole thing. She learned that the land was initially purchased by a woman named Kate Finny,
whose family owned a large amount of land around town. Honey, the land. Honey, the land. How old do you think
the land is? [laughter] That's what she was saying. >> It's quite old, Kate. It's quite old. Uh
Kate had maybe it's And this is a Pikman's, too. And she remember she was like Pinkering.
>> Oh, yeah. P I C K. Oh, no. She [laughter] doesn't even spell it right. >> She literally
>> Pinkering. I C K. >> Sylvia Brown pronounces pinking like the color pink. P I C K E R I N G. I was
like, that is two different [laughter] words. But here we are. So Kate had the house
built on the property and lived there until the early 1900s when it pass was passed down to a relative, Dr. Charles
Finny. The house remained in the Finny family until the 1940s when it was sold and from there it went to a few
different owners before it was purchased by the current owner, the Pikmin's landlord. Armed with a list of names and
owners and occupants, Deb moved over to the cemetery records and started looking
up each name she'd come across. She was like, "I got to find our ghost among these people."
>> Sally. >> But when she continued tracing the lineage to the owners, she found a
surprising number number of male children, but very few girls and no Sally. >> Okay.
>> So, Deb was about to pack up and head home when she finally came across what she was looking for. According to the
census records, at the same time that Charles Finny took ownership of the house, a family named uh with by the
name Hall moved in a few houses down. The records indicated that the head of the household was a single woman and she
lived there with her daughter Sally El Isabelle Hall. >> Shut the [ __ ] up. >> Who died in 1905?
>> The information was hardly proof that they had >> a you know like exactly what was going
on. But Deb is like this is related cuz they live down and we got a Sally. That's
>> it's on the street so we'll take it. >> So she noted it. And Barbara arrived that evening a little after 8:00 p.m.
And from the moment she arrived, she seemed to be like preoccupied. Deb said it was as if she wasn't actually looking
at anything in the room. In fact, as her eyes roved, they never seemed to stop or
focus on anything in particular or anything we could see. >> Okay. >> Eventually, Barbara did settle down and
started communicating with Sally. She said, >> "Calm down, Barb. >> Settle the [ __ ] down, Bob."
[clears throat] [snorts] She said, "You do a lot of things that bug her. >> You're too bossy." She says, "You're too
bossy." And it's like, "Bitch, you told me to be bossy." Not only did you tell me to be bossy, this is my [ __ ]
house. >> This is my [ __ ] house. You're a kid. You got to listen to me. >> Right.
>> Deb was slightly takenback by this cuz she was like, "Barb, you told me to be b
you instructed me to be bossy." >> And she said that. She said, "Barbara, you told me. Barbara,
>> you said Babs, I only did what you suggested. I laid out the rules. I told her she couldn't stay if she didn't if
she didn't comply with the rules, but otherwise she was welcome. >> Fair is fair.
>> And Barbara said she doesn't like it. But then again, what child likes to be disciplined?
>> Okay. >> And it's like, Barbara, you're not helping me. >> Well, I can't. And what am I supposed to
do? Let her run a muck? >> Honey the land. Honey the land. Now, in order to help soothe Sally's hurt
feelings, Barbara suggested they get her some of her own toys, which at this point, I'd be like, I'm
not buying her ghost toys. >> No, this is going too far. She was like, "Maybe that way she won't be so
preoccupied with the baby and his things." And the suggestion seemed unusual to Tony and Deb. But Deb was
like, "You know what? If it gets me peace, I'll do it." >> Yeah. >> So, she was like, "Cool. Maybe this will
help smooth things over, keep peace in the house, which appeared to be the only option since Barbara didn't get the
feeling that Sally would ever leave." >> I feel like the more you feed into this
though, the worse off you are. >> When she told them she feels safe and secure here,
>> so she's not leaving. But like, why are we rewarding bad behavior? You scratched
my mans and drew blood. You don't get a tip on me, Elmo. I know it's the hottest
of the 90s, but you're not. >> You cannot have it. >> Absolutely not. >> You got to start acting right.
[music] >> Now, before leaving, Barbara mentioned one more thing. >> Oh, no. Not one more thing.
>> Although she managed to get through to Sally without much trouble, she did get
the feeling that there was another far stronger spirit in the house. >> The second spirit refused to communicate
or reveal themselves to Barbara. But she got the impression that the ghost was older and much stronger than Sally. It
was that ghost, Barbara theorized, that was responsible for attacking Tony. It was not Sally.
>> Oh, okay. So, she can have a tickle. >> That's how she felt. Now, in the days
after Barbara's visit to the house, the activity did seem to calm down, especially once Deb bought some new
stuffed bears and dolls specifically for Sally. >> That's really sweet, Deb. >> Deb's a good mom.
>> She is, you know, >> to her physical children and her spiritual children. >> She really is.
>> While the relative piece was welcome, Tony couldn't help but feel a little concerned about how enthusiastic Deb
seemed about having a ghost in the house. And you know, >> this would if I was this enthusiastic
about having a ghost in the house, Drew would not be pleased. >> Yeah. He was like, "The more she got
into it, the more resentful he was getting of their ghost pals." >> I get that. >> Now, one morning, a couple weeks after
Barbara's visit, Tony returned home from working the late shift. Before going to
the bedroom to get some sleep, he went to the kitchen to get just like a glass to drink, something.
>> Uh, as he was closing the refrigerator door, Tony caught a glimpse of the apparition of a young girl out of the
corner of his eye. >> Shut. She said, "You don't want to see me. Here the [ __ ] I am." He literally
dropped his glass on the floor. Of course, he did. [snorts] >> Shattered the glass on the floor.
>> Uh, and he said when he when it fell, it it like sh like he didn't even realize
he had dropped the glass. So, it shattered on the floor and it like shocked him for a second. And he said,
"As as I looked at it, when I looked back, she was gone." Yeah. And he said he later said, "I was so panicky. I
couldn't get words out." I mean, yeah. Now, while the appearance of Sally in the kitchen did nothing but frighten
Tony, Deb was ecstatic that she had finally made an appearance. >> I kind of get that.
>> But she was kind of jealous that >> Oh, babe. I'd be so jealous >> that it was Tony that she'd appeared to
and not her. >> Yeah. She just went out and purchased all these nice [ __ ] >> Now, in the weeks after that, Deb
continued to speak loudly and regularly with Sally. >> Like, show yourself, girl.
>> Hoping that she would get a look at her, but the theatrics of speaking to a ghost
did nothing other than kind of piss off Tony. Oh no. [laughter] Tony was like, "I don't want to see her again. Cut the
shit." >> After the sighting in the kitchen, a few months passed without any activity. Then
one night while the couple was sleeping, Tony was awoken by the feeling that someone was pulling on his arm.
>> Ew. He had just come out of unconsciousness when the tugging sensation gave way to a hard pull and he
was physically yanked up and forward. He said, "I was literally pulled out of bed."
>> Ew. He said, "It just grabbed my arm and yanked me. It scared me. I remember how
tight it had my wrist. This is my biggest fear. >> Yeah. And he said like the scratches, it
left deep red finger marks on his wrist. >> Stop. >> Yeah. As the days passed, Deb continued
to try to communicate with Sally, convinced that the assault on Tony was Sally's way of trying to communicate
something to them. >> I don't think >> Tony, on the other hand, was growing more resentful, not only of Sally now,
but also of Deb, who seemed more interested in ghost hunting than she than he felt for anybody's safety or
well-being. That's how he saw it. >> Yeah. Just a few days after he was pulled out of bed, Tony returned home
from another overnight shift and laid down to get some rest. He had just started to drift off when he began
hearing whispering. No, >> he said to me, "It didn't sound like a child. It sounded almost like three
grownup people talking at once, like they were right in your ear talking to you." Oh, that's [ __ ] horrifying. The
whispering was accompanied by a distinct sensation that there was someone in the
room with him and the entire experience effectively ruled out the possibility of
going to sleep for the night. He was like, "Nope, not doing that." >> Also, this poor guy, he's angry. He's
sleepdeprived and he's working overnight and he's a new father. >> Yeah. Wait, I just need to interrupt. We
had to pause for a second to like go get children off to school. I said to Elena,
"Was it getting progressively colder in here while you were telling this story?"
>> It was. All of a sudden, my legs started getting so cold, >> and that feels paranormal. It is cold
out, but it it was getting increasingly colder. >> Yeah, it does. Because the rest of the
house was nice and warm. >> Yeah. So, that was weird. >> And even now, I feel like a cold chill.
>> Yeah. >> And we just turned the heat on in here. So, >> so hopefully it will get warm.
>> Elena goes, Sally, I go, I hope she didn't travel this way. >> I hope not. >> All right. What's going on?
>> All right. So, as the days passed, that feeling of resentment in Tony started,
you know, growing a little bit. I wonder if that's paranormal. >> Well, cuz it was soon accompanied by
dark thoughts. >> That's probably paranormal. >> He said, "I was getting a strong feeling
of hate, like I wanted to reach out and hurt her." >> Oh, >> like Sally. >> And Deb and Tony had, you know, had a
very normal relationship where every once in a while they argued like normal couples do. But these feelings were new,
he said, and they were entirely foreign to Tony. He had always been super easygoing, very kind. He was not a
violent guy, not an aggressive guy. Um, and in time, it became harder for him to
hide his feelings. And eventually, I forgot about that. I thought we turned Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh [laughter] my
god. >> [laughter] >> Are you okay? >> Yes, I'm fine. You're both [ __ ] [laughter]
>> As soon as I waited for you to start. [laughter] >> I waited. >> If Sally isn't here, I am a man. Sally's
here. I >> No, girl. You're just a klutz. Your foot got looped in your [laughter] back.
>> I waited until you were okay to fully laugh. >> I waited for you to sit up and then it
just >> It was with the table. [laughter] >> It was like you went down and then you
went like DOUBLE DOWN KIND OF [laughter] and then the table just really stealed your face.
>> Did you see how I chose to fall though? Oh, very very [laughter] >> That's months and months of
>> you chose to fall very demir very mindful >> or roller derby. Oh my god. >> Very cutesy cutesy. [laughter]
>> I thought I turned that off. >> Oh my god. >> It's It's not our fault. Genetically
that's instilled in us. My nanny used to love when [laughter] people would fall.
>> I would love to hear how that sounds. >> You might need to leave that in. Guys,
Mikey's okay, but he just ate [ __ ] [laughter] And we I need you to know that we
waited. We waited to see if [laughter] he was okay, but he fell and then my costume fell onto him, which is a table.
[laughter] And then his chair fell too, and everything just fell. [laughter] It felt like that scene is not another
teen movie when she falls through [laughter] the stairs and everything goes and then she like falls into the
basement. >> It keeps going. I'm literally sobbing. >> Oh my god. So I waited. >> Oh my god. I said I just I literally was
holding it until you stood up and like I wanted to make sure you didn't like hurt
your knees >> and you just go. [laughter] >> You just kept saying oh my god. [laughter]
>> I did every every part that happened you would go, "Oh my god." [laughter] >> As you fell, she went, "Oh my god." And
then the table went, "Oh my god. [laughter] We need to hear it. >> Oh my Oh my god. [laughter] Oh my god.
>> Brought to you by God. >> Oh my god. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Oh, sweet Mikey.
>> Oh my god. >> Well, anyway. All right. Okay. Get it together, me. So So like I
said, Tony Tony was super chill. He was a chill guy. Uh, but it honestly became hard for him to hide his feelings.
Eventually, Deb noticed that something was going on here. She said, "There was a noticeable change in Tony's demeanor.
We fought a lot more. He was almost argumentative and starting issues." A >> in retrospect, Tony believes that the
spirit, whether Sally or something else, was affecting his emotions and it was all exacerbated by the fact that he was
typically operating, like we were talking about before, on pretty little sleep. Yeah. like he
>> one he's working overnight and again he's a new father. >> So they started fearing what was going
to happen if they didn't take action. So Deb called Barbara and explained what was happening and Barbara believed Tony
was being influenced by the second spirit. But at that point she had to admit that she was a little out of her
depth here. Rather than have her try to communicate Kate with Sally for a third time. Barbara recommended that they get
in contact with Peter James who's a well-known psychic and paranormal investigator in Kansas who she thought
could help them. Now, despite everything that had happened, Tony was still reluctant to contact James, he was
feeling that other people in the community were going to find out, like it was going to get weird. But he knew
they couldn't continue on this way. So, he agreed and Deb reached out to James, who agreed to come to the house. A few
days later, Peter, James, and his team of paranormal investigators came to the house, and before they even entered the
house, James sensed the spirit of a little girl who he said he spotted in the upstairs window.
>> Yeah. As he moved through the house from room to room, he sensed the present of a
second spirit. He said it was a woman who he recognized as far more powerful than the little girl. It was in the
nursery that the psychic sensed the presence of the woman the strongest. He said he felt as though she was trying to
push the group from the room as James was fighting to stay. >> Which is interesting because Deb's
sister had said that or her sister-in-law >> she felt like a weird like she like she
was unwanted. She said >> exactly. So, as James continued to try to make contact, Tony suddenly felt the
burning pain on his back. And when he lifted his shirt, Deb saw the same bloody claw marks that she'd seen on him
several months before. >> Stop clawing my mans. >> James said, the psychic, he said he or
paranormal investigator. He said he was really petrified. He just couldn't move.
I tried to put him at ease, but he was very shaken by this. >> Are you going to put me at ease when a
ghost is scratching my back? >> You're not putting me not in like a soothing way.
>> Yeah. Now, after sending everyone else out of the room, Peter James was finally
able to get an impression of the second spirit in the house. Sorry. Why does Peter James sound like such an official
name? It sounds very like delightful. >> It does. It also sounds like a Hollywood
star. >> Hi, my name's Peter James. I'm here to fix things. I'd be like, "Yeah, you are.
>> Cool. I trust you." And it trust Peter James. >> I know nothing about you, but I do know
that your name is Peter James and you will help us. >> Yeah. To be clear, I know nothing about
Peter James. >> Yeah. No, I don't either. But I trust him based off his name. >> I don't need to know anything.
>> Like that's it. >> He's so strong. >> He's so strong. So, and Peter James was
able to get an impression of the second spirit in the house. And later he told them what he'd learned. Now, according
to him, the second spirit was that of a former domestic worker, [snorts] a black
woman who worked for the doctor who'd occupied the house in the early 1900s. >> Okay.
>> James believed the woman was also the doctor's mistress, and the girl, Sally,
was their daughter. Oh [ __ ] >> So, we're getting tangly. The plot is plotting. Okay. But
because an interracial relationship would have been socially unacceptable in that era, they had to keep their
relationship and Sally's parentage a secret. So, it gets thicker and more dark. >> Now, tragically, Peter James was also
able to see how the story ended. He said, "I became empathic and I was able to sense how she died." According to
James, Sally contracted pneumonia when she was around seven years old. And despite the doctor's best efforts, he
was unable to save the girl. At that time, pneumonia was like >> I mean, it's a problem.
>> She died of pneumonia. >> Sally's death was an insurmountable event and their relationship soon came
to an end. They just couldn't survive that. >> How do you? >> But it resulted in a lot of bitterness
in the part of the mistress, of course. >> Yeah. And the mother. >> Exactly. Now, after completing their his
investigation, Peter, James told Tony, and Deb he didn't believe they were in any real danger, and if they wanted to
remain in the home, they would need only to be strong and not allow themselves to
be bullied. The news was a comfort. >> They're like, "Well, I'm trying not to." >> And also, I'm like, she's pretty pissed.
Like, she's got a lot to be pissed about. Yeah. >> This woman, like, she's a mother of a
child who died. And also the mistress of this white doctor who won't even claim her as his own
>> or her child or the child. and then just probably moved on with the rest of his
life when his daughter died >> and she's just left to pick up the pieces all alone, you know.
>> Um, >> yeah, >> I'd be scratching [ __ ] left and right. >> Scratching the [ __ ] out of people,
especially men. Oh, you better believe. >> Nothing like a woman's scold. >> Nope. Now, the news was a comfort to Deb
cuz again, she's getting more insight. >> She's like, I'm not [laughter] a man. >> Well, and she said, "You know what? I
feel like the more we find out about them, the better off we're going to be." >> Yeah.
>> Um, and she said, "I was so enamored with the activity. Like I just it was so
fascinating to her and she was like and the fact that this is all kind of adding
up. >> But to Tony, the results of the investigation only made him more fearful of what would happen if they stayed,
>> which I get. >> Not only had he been assaulted several times, but he was also worried that if
they continued living in the house, his mental health would continue to deteriorate to the point where something
bad would happen. >> Well, not only that, they have a son. >> That's the thing. And not a daughter.
Yeah. And he said, "All I could think about was evil thoughts. All I could think was, I just want to hurt her.
>> Oh, wow. >> Yeah. And he's like admitting that. He's like, I don't know. I didn't want to
think those thoughts. >> Yeah, of course not. >> Now, given how serious Tony's fears had
become, Deb finally agreed to put aside her interest in the paranormal and agreed that they should start looking
for somewhere else to live. >> In the year and a half that they'd lived in the house, they'd managed to save a
small amount of money and were finally able to actually move. Um, but rather than continue to live in the house, Tony
and Deb actually picked up some of their things and went to live with Tony's parents until they were able to find a
new home. They got the [ __ ] out of how serious this was. >> And they didn't have the money like
right readily available to just get out of there. Yeah. Like this. >> Well, you have to think your house may
be infested with with ghosts and demons and the like, but still got to pay rent.
>> Exactly. Now, in his assessment of the situation, Peter James believed that the
paranormal activity in the house had become more aggressive and targeted Tony because of his disin interest in the
whole situation. >> Yeah, I could see that. >> He said the activity escalated because
Tony wanted less and less to do with the ghost. >> Yeah. >> So, they're going to try harder and
harder to get his attention. And that was probably so triggering to the the woman, the mother, because that's
exactly what happened in life. >> Yep. Now, this is what he said. This is why she pounced on him literally
violently. Uh he said as a result of Tony's experiences, the ghost would go on to become known Sally the manhater.
>> Dang. >> Now, which is funny cuz it's like Sally's not the manhater, >> which they I mean they're they're fairly
certain. They don't know >> that it's Sally or that it's >> he was say Yeah. They don't know who's
actually doing the >> the pouncing. >> Yeah. They think it's probably the mom protecting, but like we also don't know
a lot about the father. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And we don't know what that situation was.
>> Well, and that makes you wonder too like more about the father because he Tonyy's
being inflicted with like these dark >> What was that? >> A glass. I feel attacked.
>> Yeah, >> that was really [ __ ] spooky. >> Did that come off of the shelf? >> Yes.
And I went I got a glass from the shelf this morning. Those are firmly >> Oh, yeah. They were totally on there.
Like >> it's been like >> that's even harder to fall off cuz it's like got a lip to it.
>> And there's also a towel underneath it. So it's like >> Huh. >> It's always when we do paranormal
episodes. People probably think we make this [ __ ] up, but >> you that you probably heard that one.
>> You had to You had to have heard that one. That was loud. >> That's the other thing. It fell with a
lot of force. That was that's a pretty light glass. >> Yeah, >> that was weird. Um, but I was saying
Jesus. I was saying it is interesting that like we don't know that much about the man because like the man who had
lived there previously because Tony's being inflicted by these dark thoughts and it's like is that the man's energy
because he like back then he was probably feeling angry and agitated toward the mistress for getting pregnant
and then having to cover things up. he had to fix the situation potentially or had thoughts of fixing quote unquote the
situation and taking care of everything. So, it's like this you're that absolutely could have been that.
>> I think there's more at play there than it sounds to me at least like more than
just two spirits. >> I think so, too. >> Now, as soon as they moved out of the house, Tony's mental health improved
dramatically. >> I bet he no longer had intrusive, negative, or violent thoughts. Um, the
couple went on to tell their story publicly, first on television and then in a book authored by Deb, but they've
remained pretty private and prefer to stay out of the spotlight now. >> So, they told the story and then they
were like, >> I mean, how do you do what you will with it? >> How do you not tell that story?
>> Now, the house and, you know, it's new spectral inhabitants on the other hand
have become one of the most popular places in both the state and country for paranormal investigators. M
>> Sally's house has been included on a popular Aches ghost tour. Um, you know, there's some slight slight twists to the
story that they'll tell sometimes, but in the latest version of events, Sally quote died while in surgery to remove
her appendix and hates men who walk in the house. >> Okay. Um, I say latest version of
events, but it's I mean, I guess there's no real way to verify exactly what happened to her.
>> So, that probably just get different feelings. >> That could be a version of the events.
Um, the house and its, you know, spooky stories have definitely helped build the
town's reput because it's small town, small town's reputation as one of the most haunted towns in America. So fun.
>> Um, and a lot of people in Achen welcome it. Uh, it's brought a lot of money from
tourism. It's like a good thing as long as people are respectful. >> Yeah. >> In more recent years, the owner of
Sally's House have opened the place up to the public. >> I saw that. >> Um, they allow for self-guided tours in
the fall months as well as events hosted by local paranormal groups, which is pretty fun. That's good.
>> By 2020, visitors to Aches were paying as much as $400 per night to stay in that house.
>> Wow. >> Uh all the excitement and interest led to Sally's house being valued at over $1
million. >> Damn. >> Uh but within a just a few months of it being listed in late 2020, the asking
price had dropped to just under $500,000. >> It's a smaller house. >> That's the thing.
>> And it doesn't look like it has like a ton of land or anything. Exactly. So >> now, as of today, the Sally House
remains one of the biggest tourist draws to Aches. And again, you can still book
it for tours, overnight stays, and I think you should go watch the Sam and Colby video. Now, I want to um we didn't
do this in like, you know, collaboration with them in any way. I'm just trying to
>> help help really trying to get them views. >> I really I really want to get their
little channel going, you [laughter] know? I'll I'll never live that down that I was like, "Guys,
>> have you listen?" >> Yeah. Like such such fun videos. You guys should give it a YouTubers.
[laughter] Uh, but no, their their video on it is like wildly compelling. Very interesting. Lots of scratching happens
happening. So >> definitely go check it out. But um, yeah, that's the Sally House. Sally the
man hater. >> That was a really fascinating one. And I don't and also am desperate to want uh
I'm desperate to go there and I don't want to go there all at the same time. >> That's how I feel.
>> But we will probably be going. >> Yeah. >> Doable. Drivable. >> Yeah. >> All right. I would say so. Cool. Well,
maybe we'll go. >> Maybe we'll do it. >> It's so spooky. >> It's so spooky. Suka
>> Suk, today we're recording the first episode of the next season of the Rewatcher, True Blood. So, if you are a
rewatcher listener or you're not, go [ __ ] check that [ __ ] out. >> You should go check it out. We finished
Buffy. >> Yeah. And and fun little tidbit, uh Andrew McMahon wrote our theme song for
it. >> Yeah. Hello. >> So, that's pretty [ __ ] cool. >> A lot of you are fans. So,
>> yeah. A lot of you love Andrew just like we do. And the song slaps. >> It is a banger. I feel like maybe we
should we posted it on the uh rewatcher and morbids uh socials yesterday. Go check it out. You got to listen to the
song. It's so good. >> It's so good. >> It's so outside of what Andrew usually does. So, it's fun.
>> A completely different vibe. >> He also did a little video before it that you can see if you go to our social
>> where he refers to us as a friend. >> Yeah. As friends. In fact, um I played it for Aiden last night and Dolores was
very interested. She came over to my laptop as it was playing and was wagging her tail.
>> I love that. >> So, my dog, big fan. >> Big fan. >> Big fan. And you should be, too. Go
listen to it. >> Yeah. We're really excited to start True Blood and to get that going. So,
>> it's going to be fun. >> Yeah. Go listen. And uh with that being said, we hope you keep listening
>> and we hope you >> keep it weird, but not so that you're a ghost in the afterlife who lines up toys
in a circle and, you know, scares everybody and makes bears face the wall while you do nefarious [ __ ]
>> Yeah. Okay. Don't make Tony feel weird about [ __ ] >> No, never make Tony feel angry. Don't
make Tony angry. >> Tony Brown. Don't make Tony angry. >> I never met a Tony I didn't like. I love
that for you. Oh, that's not true, actually. I take it back. Bye. [laughter] I take it. Bye.
[music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

When newlyweds Tony and Deb Pickman moved into their new home in Atchison, Kansas in March 1993, they were excited to have found what they believed was the perfect home for their new family. But that summer, when Deb gave birth to their son, Taylor, things in the Pickman’s new house went from perfect to terrifying in a matter of months. Considered one of the most haunted houses in America, the Pickman’s experienced everything from disembodied voices and moving objects to spontaneous fires and violent physical attacks before finally deciding to abandon the house altogether, rather than risk their lives any further. In the years since, “Sallie’s House,” as it’s become known due to its ghostly inhabitant, has become a major destination for ghost hunters and thrill-seekers alike. Want to see the Sam & Colby Video we talked about in the episode? CLICK HERE! References Amodio, Joe. 2006. A Haunting - "Sallie's House". Directed by Bertrand Morin and Jeffrey Fine. Produced by New Dominion. Business Insider. 2020. "7 haunted houses that were once worth over $1 million." Business Insider, October 14. Pickman, Debra Lyn. 2010. The Sallie House Haunting: A True Story. Woodbury, MN: Llewellyn Publications. Tanner, Beccy. 2001. "Atchison's haunted history." Wichita Eagle, October 26: 25. Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025)]

Brief Summary

Deb and Tony Pikman recount their haunting experiences in the Sally House, revealing escalating paranormal activity and a tragic backstory involving a spirit named Sally.

Key points

Excitement for Twilight. Molina and Ash express their excitement for the upcoming Twilight bonus episode.
The Sally House Introduction. The hosts introduce the haunted Sally House, setting the stage for a chilling story.
Deb's Haunting Experience. Deb experiences a terrifying encounter in her new home, leading to screams and chaos.
The Mysterious Circle of Toys. After Deb's sister visits, stuffed toys in the nursery are found arranged in a circle, facing outward. This eerie discovery leaves the family horrified and questioning reality.
Unexplained Noises and Lights. Deb and her family experience strange occurrences, like lights turning on by themselves and sounds from the baby monitor, leading them to suspect paranormal activity.
The Haunting of Sally. Deb learns about a ghost named Sally who may be connected to their home.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I think I read all the Twilight books in like middle school.

5:36WatchOct 30, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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