Did Woman Killed by Her Husband Predict Her Own Death? | Forensic Files

Around every corner, there's a twist. After a woman goes missing, it's up to law enforcement and her children to make
sure justice is served. But listen closely, because we think that there might be more crimes out there connected
to this case that are yet to be solved. This is the story of Charlotte Grabby. It's around 8:00 p.m. on July 24th, 1981
when 21-year-old Jenny Grabby gets a call saying that her 39-year-old mother Charlotte hasn't come home after working
in the fields on the family farm. Now, Jenny's brother Jeff and his wife Cindy, Cindy's actually the one calling. They
also live on the property with Charlotte, which is how they realized that she was MIA so quickly. So Jenny
hops in her car, drives the few miles to the farm in Marshall, Illinois, and together she, Cindy, and Jeff head to
the soybean field where Charlotte had been working. Now, even though she's nowhere to be seen, when they show up,
they know she was here because they look in the shed that's nearby and they find
Charlotte's tractor. They find Charlotte's lunchbox sitting on it. And inside the lunchbox, they find
Charlotte's migraine medicine. But again, no sign of Charlotte. and no sign of her car, which like you could say
would be all the more reason to think maybe she left on her own, but if she did that, why not take the medicine that
she needs with her? I get that, but like farm kid here. Truly, this is like your
episode. Sometimes stuff happens fast and you got to move like just as quickly. I can totally see her just like
popping out, leaving everything to take care of whatever emergency farm thing happened. I knew all of this and yes,
you are not wrong. But I haven't given you the full context for why everyone is so worried. Charlotte is actually in the
middle of a really nasty divorce with Jeff and Jenny's dad, Fred, which should be marking the end of years of abuse
that Charlotte's endured at his hand. I mean, even shortly before the filing, he'd recently been charged with battery
for assaulting her. So Fred's clearly not been willing to let go of Charlotte. And while not many people outside of the
family know what's been going on behind closed doors, Charlotte doesn't hide these ugly truths from her kids. They're
grown adults and she looks to them for support. In fact, she had just told her family like days ago that if she ever
didn't come home for any reason, something was up and they should come look for her. Ashley, I feel like you
should have led with all of that information. I'm I'm trying to tell a story here. So to add to their worry, a
couple of neighbors tell Jeff and Jenny that Fred was actually spotted in the area around 4:00 to 4:30. So the kids
set off to find Fred at this point. One of our reporters, Emily, spoke to Jenny for this episode and she said that they
looked around for him a little bit, specifically at a couple of bars in the area where he was known to spend a lot
of time. But when they couldn't find him, Jenny reached out directly to the Clark County Sheriff James Thompson,
known to the family and others in this small town as Red. And by the next day, Red enlists the help of the state police
who are able to track Fred down. They end up finding him on the farm in the very place that his wife might have
disappeared from that shed. Per the records, Fred tells police that in the early afternoon on the 24th, he showed
up at the shed with a woman named Vicky Mallister because she wanted a burn barrel. So Fred began to load one up
just as Charlotte started to pull up on the tractor. So, I guess he instructed Vicki to hide in the front seat of his
truck because oh, by the way, Vicki was his new girlfriend. Oh, and he wanted to
avoid some kind of blowup, but it sounds like like that didn't really matter because then he admits that when
Charlotte got off the tractor, they started arguing about his and Vickiy's relationship anyways. And Fred says that
the fight ended with him telling Charlotte to go to hell and then he hopped in his truck and drove away. And
he says that Charlotte actually followed him in her car, racing up behind him to
give him the finger. And the last time he saw her is when he crossed over I7 while Charlotte went right heading
towards Teroot, Indiana, which is like just over the like state line about 20 minutes from Marshall. And the grabby
property is super close to the border near the Waw Bash River. Convenient that she just left on her own. Very. And Fred
also tells police that Charlotte has done this before. And you know what? Like she might be gone. We might not be
able to find her, but she's gonna come back. She's playing some kind of game. And did he say where he and Vicki went
after this altercation? He says that he went to a trailer, which I think belonged to Vicki. And he said he got
there around 400 p.m. And then he stayed there till the next morning. Okay, Fred.
I know, but like at least part of what Fred told police seems to be true because police follow up with the grabby
neighbors who indicate that they did see Fred driving in his pickup truck down the road with Charlotte's car following
right behind him, just like he said. One of those neighbors said that this happened between 4:15 and 4:30.
But this is where Fred's narrative starts to fall apart because both neighbors that they end up talking to
tell authorities that they don't believe it was Charlotte driving Charlotte's car. One of the witnesses describes the
driver as a woman who had blonde curly hair. Charlotte is known to have straight, short, dark hair. And both
witnesses know Charlotte super well. So these accounts like have some real teeth
to them. So the big question now is did Vicky Mallister have blonde curly hair? This is my first question. We asked
Jenny and all these years later, she says she couldn't exactly remember. She remembered it being like frizzy. But
according to police records we got our hands on, Cindy did tell police that Vicki had blonde curly hair. And also we
did get our hands on some pictures of her from back in the day. And like definitely it looks light colored,
definitely curly. So I don't think it's a mystery as to who could have been driving Charlotte's car. Now, if I were
Red or the state police, obviously I'm going straight back to Fred, calling him a big fat liar and pressing him to tell
me why witnesses spotted someone who looked an awful lot like his girlfriend driving his missing wife's car the day
that she went missing. But I don't know if they did any of that. Like, there's nothing I can see in the files that we
have that shows they went impressed Fred. I'm not saying they didn't. But what we do know is that on July 26th,
this is now 2 days after Charlotte was last seen, this is when police interview Vicki, except there's nothing about them
pressing her on if she was the one driving that car. Not like the thing I want to know the most. Vicki pretty much
just tells them the same story that Fred did. She says that she was hiding in the
truck. She could hear Fred and Charlotte arguing. Fred eventually jumped in the truck and then they drove away arriving
to her trailer between like 4:00 and 5:00. So, police don't get a whole lot from Fred and Vicki because it feels
like we're not asking any of the important questions. Fair, but maybe they wanted to find Charlotte's car
before they go making accusations. And luckily, that is exactly what happens next, like the very same day that they
interview Vicki. Charlotte's car is discovered parked and locked at a bar in Teroot. And unfortunately, or maybe
fortunately, there's nothing super alarming about the condition of the car. Like, when police finally get inside and
search the vehicle, there's no signs of a struggle or blood or anything. The only thing of interest that we do know
they find in the car is a gun. But in rural Indiana, it's like honestly not weird to find that in someone's car.
This is my PSA about road rage people. Like you do not know who is behind that wheel or what kind of day they have had
or life or what they have under their seat. 1,000%. Yeah. And Jenny told us that in her mom's case, she thinks that
this gun that they found was actually one that her dad purchased, but he never took it with him when he moved out of
the house after the split. So her mom was keeping it with her and on her like for protection basically. Is there any
testing they can do on it to see if it was used recently or anything? You know, I don't think there's any testing they
can do on the gun itself. I mean, I know they could test Fred for like GSR gunshot residue, like to see if he'd
fired a gun, right? We know like that exists. Yeah. Nothing says that they did this, though. But I don't think there's
like a test you can run on a gun to know if it was fired within the last couple of days. So, I know the car eventually
gets returned to Marshall for further examination. And then things like hairs and fibers and fingerprints are found in
the car, but none of these things that are found seem to tie directly back to Fred or Vicki. So, while the car didn't
appear to provide a ton of new information, finding that gun that Charlotte kept closed for protection
just reinforced how truly terrified she was of Fred. And if there was any doubt about that, Charlotte cleared that up in
her own words. [Music] Two branches of the same tree, two pieces of a soul. Where one sister goes,
the other will be. For she is but half of the whole. The missing half. Pre-order your copy at
ashleyflowers.com. Police found that Charlotte kept a safety deposit box at a local bank. And
when investigators got access to that box, they found a three-page signed letter dated July 10th. This is about 2
weeks before she disappeared. And in this letter, Charlotte accuses Fred and his business associate, this guy named
Dale, of doing some shady stuff like stealing from other farms. And Charlotte's letter also describes a
scheme where Dale and Fred would remove serial numbers from oil pump jacks, which seems to indicate that they were
like maybe stolen or stealing them or whatever. So essentially, these two were getting into all kinds of things. But
even more damning, Charlotte says in her letter, quote, "Fred and I are getting a
divorce, and I'm not sure I will not be killed through all of this." End quote. It's always so like chilling and
devastating to me when a victim like sees it coming, you know, like it's like a train barreling towards them that they
can't stop. They can do nothing to stop. You want to like reach back in time and
be like you you're like you're writing this letter for a reason. like you're not crazy. You you need to do some like
reach out for help. Do something. And this is like you know the PSA we do to everyone like if you're having those
feelings like you so many times people are like well it's not going to happen to me and I just I'm going to write it
down just in case. Just in case just in case is like you're at a line that like it's already gone far too far. So like
we're going to have a ton of links to resources in the show notes, but like there are plenty of people out there
like Charlotte who are like doing things like this, writing this letter. So, the
signs that Charlotte was in danger before she vanished were very real, not just in the form of assaults from Fred.
Jeff tells police that actually the day before Charlotte's disappearance, she got a strange call from a woman. And
this woman told Charlotte that she had some documents that would get Fred in trouble and she wanted to meet up at a
bar. No. Obviously, no. Charlotte's not even falling for it either. And when the
woman refused to give her a name, Charlotte refused to go meet her. Yeah. But like this is another big mystery
within a mystery. Who was this woman? What was this all about? It only adds to like all of the questions they're
already asking. And what if anything this has to do with Charlotte's disappearance? Police don't know because
like a lot of things in this case, it's all too vague. But Charlotte's kids don't need the same evidence maybe even
the police do or the jury would. They are convinced from the jump that their own father murdered their mother, but
not everyone is on that train. There are at least a few people who are on Fred's
side. Police interview a friend of Fred's named Esle, and he tells police almost exactly what Fred told them. He
thinks that Charlotte is playing some kind of game, that she would come back, and he doesn't think that Fred would
ever harm Charlotte. Police also talked to Fred's business associate, Dale. And according to a Forensic Files episode,
he oddly enough tells police that he, you know, thinks Fred didn't do it because Fred was with him at his house
on the night of the 24th. Okay, get your story straight, Dale. Right. Because like Fred, Fred's saying he was at
Vicky's, right? Like, right. And also like I feel like we should take anything Dale says with like a grain of salt.
Like he was probably doing illegal stuff with Fred. Precisely. And worth noting that Jenny told us that Charlotte was
afraid of Dale, too. Now Dale is unfortunately no longer alive or like I would have just gone and asked him about
all of this. Also, even if Dale is telling the truth, Fred being at his place that night kind of means nothing,
right? Like we don't know when Charlotte actually went missing. No, not really. So, according to Jenny, her mom usually
went out to the field like really early in the morning, often at daybreak, like as farmers are known to do. Yes.
Sometimes she would work till like late in the night. The only thing we have to even kind of give us a timeline are
those neighbors who saw Fred and not Charlotte driving away. So, like remember, one of those neighbors puts
this between 4:15 and 4:30 p.m. Another neighbor actually puts Fred's truck at the shed between 3 and 4, but by 4:30,
both the truck and Charlotte's car were gone. So, if something happened to her at the shed and like at this time frame,
we're looking at 3 to 4:30 and then like who knows where Fred really was and when
after that. Now, as August rolls in, authorities and locals form search parties to look for Charlotte, including
searching the Waw Bash River near the Grabby property. But it is a needle in a hay stack because Marshall is located in
rural Illinois and the area is quite literally thousands of acres of corn and soybean fields. Our reporter Emily
actually was able to interview Fred for this episode and he said that they had over a thousand acres with most of it
being in Illinois, but like some of the land cross the state line into Indiana. And this feels so similar to where I
grew up. I just remember like miles and miles of fields with like these little houses peppered here and there. Some
wooded areas. Sometimes they're like separating the field. Sometimes they're just like in the middle hanging out.
It's not like there's a lot out there. And when you think about like even like corn fields and stuff too that the corn
is high this time of year. It's so it's not like you can just like peer far and wide. Yeah. And again like there's not
much going on. There's not a lot out there. But if you're looking for something, the land can just seem like
endless to a point. And for everyone who did not grow up on a farm like you, um Emily actually went out there with Jenny
to like look at the property where she was last seen. So, we're going to have photos up there today. It's still even
very rural today so you guys can kind of get a sense of what we're talking about
for our city folk. Now, by September, probably feeling a tug of desperation, the police actually call in a psychic to
make sure they're just leaving no stone unturned. But even then, they have no luck locating Charlotte, or should I say
Charlotte's remains because Jenny and Jeff are sure, sure, sure, sure sure that their mother is gone. And they're
so sure who is responsible. So, it's like salt in the wound for them when their father does an interview with the
Herald and Review and now publicly says that he thinks his wife is alive. Okay, Fred. And this just pushes Jeff and
Jenny even more and they pressure authorities to convene a grand jury. And in October of 1981, they get their wish
sort of. What's a sort of grand jury? No, there's a regular grand jury, not a sort of grand jury. But um the problem
is when Fred and his girlfriend Vicki appear before the grand jury, they just plead the fifth. So like the people they
believe know something that they're like pushing this grand jury for aren't saying a word. Well, and it's also not
like this is just a suspect off the streets for Jenny and Jeff. Like this is their dad. I know. Are they like totally
aranged by this point? Are they still trying to talk to him, convince him to like tell them what happened? Jenny told
us that she was for sure by that time, like she was done, but she can't speak for her brother Jeff. She said that she
has reasons to believe that Jeff was still speaking to their dad back then. But in the end, after this grand jury,
the prosecutor informed her that they didn't have enough evidence for an indictment coming out of that. And when
Jenny asked the prosecutor what they would need, he pointed to two things. He said, "If this is going to move forward,
we either need a body or we need a witness." But neither of those things were materializing.
Then months turn into years, and by August of 1984, with her mother's case now 3 years old, Jenny hires a private
investigator named Charles Pearson. And technically, at least according to a single source, like he's actually the
second PI hired. Like another brought on a few years earlier didn't really make any real progress like finding answers
in the case. So, this is the second one. Charles, though, has this idea that he thinks could help Jenny get what she
needs. He discovers that by this point, Vicky Mallister and Fred Grabby are no longer together. Okay. I feel like this
is one of your favorite little reminders, right? Like, years changed things. Relationships. Yeah. Nobody
wants nobody wants a case to go cold, but there is like this like point before you lose everyone in the case where like
there it could actually be a huge benefit if you didn't make progress before. Yeah. Time makes people maybe
change their mind about talking like this could be huge for this case. And this so this is what Charles is thinking
too. Now at first he wants to be sly about this. So he doesn't just like go straight to Vicki. He starts hanging
around some bars where Vicki is known to drink, play pool. The Chicago Tribune reports that they meet at one of the
bars. They become kind of friendly and after he weasles his way in, gains her trust, whatever, he eventually drops the
charade, explains that he's a PI, and then presses Vicki on what she might know about Charlotte's disappearance.
And to his surprise, girl just tells him the truth, like admitting, yes, she drove Charlotte's car that day, and yes,
she knows exactly what happened because she witnessed it. And she goes on to tell him the horrific details of what
Fred did to Charlotte on that July day back in 1981. And her story is pretty similar to what she told police back
then. She said she and Fred arrive at the shed to pick up that barrel. And at some point, Charlotte came in from the
field on her tractor. Vicki hides just like he said. But when Fred and Charlotte get into the argument, this is
where Vickiy's story changes. She says that Fred, who was like 6'4", 280 lb, becomes violent and he attacked the much
smaller Charlotte and ultimately strangled her to death. And Vicki watches all of this. Brit, she is like
not not just hiding in the truck. She's like peeking out from behind the truck. And she says that after Charlotte was
dead, Fred loaded her body into that barrel that they like came to get, put it on the back of his truck, and then
told Vicki to drive Charlotte's car. He even gave her some gloves to avoid prints, even a bandana to try and cover
that hair that might be recognized. And then they dumped Charlotte's car in Teroot. Then they went to Vickiy's place
about 20 minutes away in Rosedale. And if murdering his wife wasn't bad enough, Vicki says that once they got to her
place, Fred stripped Charlotte and then sodomized her corpse. Oh my god. The horror show kept going when he took a
grease gun. Like I don't know if you've ever used like a [ __ ] gun. Like think of
that. He filled Charlotte's body with grease. And Vicki said he did this because it would make Charlotte's body
easier to burn. Basically, as the Forensic Files episode points out, the grease would be flammable. Like, clearly
Fred had a plan in mind. I mean, honestly, this whole thing seems kind of premeditated. Like, you're going to a
shed to pick up a barrel and you end up putting your wife's body in the barrel after you kill her. I know. This dude is
sick. And I don't know how like, did it happen even this way? Like, did Vicki know everything? I I think there's a lot
you can't know without being Fred, but she does know what happened next. So, he loaded Charlotte's body back into the
barrel. Then, around sundown, they took it to the banks of the Waw Bash River. And under the cover of darkness, and
maybe just as her kids were realizing their mom didn't come home that day, Fred poured diesel fuel into the barrel
and lit it. And over the next 2 days, he burned Charlotte's body. And after that
was through, Fred dumped the rest of her remains into the river, telling Vicki it
would make for good fish bait. Jesus Christ, it's awful. Now, she said that the reason she had her fake story the
first time, she was always too terrified to say anything, which like I mean, I kind of get like if he's going to do
that to the mother of his children, like who are you, Vicki, to this guy? But somehow now again all these years later,
Charles convinces Vicki to tell this story to authorities and eventually she cooperates them to finally nail Fred.
Vicki takes the police to the scene where Charlotte's body was burned, even pointing to the tree that the barrel was
up against. The problem is it's been too long. So they even try like testing the
soil to see like what's there, but they don't find anything. Not even so much as
evidence of diesel fuel left behind, but the prosecution asked for a body or a witness. And now they have a witness.
They do. They do. And because they have a witness, true to their word, in November 1984, both Fred and Vicki are
arrested. Now Vicki, they need her. She's the witness who's like all this hinges on. They offer her a deal of
immunity to testify against Fred. There's even some talk of her possibly receiving the reward for this, which was
like $25,000 at that point if Fred got convicted. Big if because prosecutors know
convicting Fred isn't going to be easy. Like, right. Like even with this witness, it's still a nobody.
Those are just notoriously tricky. Yeah. And it's basically just Fred's word against Vicky's. So, they need to figure
out how to find a way to corroborate what Vicki is saying, like show that her version is the truth. So, in the spring
of 1985, with the trial just around the corner, prosecutors get creative. Since any physical evidence connecting Fred to
Charlotte has, I mean, basically been destroyed when he burned her body, prosecutors turned to the one thing
still literally standing. That tree that Vicki said the barrel was set against while Charlotte's body burned. Now,
knowing they didn't find anything when they tested the soil, they wondered if maybe that tree might still hold some
evidence. So they call in, wait for it, cuz I've never heard this term, some plant pathologists from the University
of Illinois. You know, every day in this job, I learn something new. Plant pathologist. Plant pathologists. Now,
what this guy discovers, Brett, is wild. He takes some samples of the tree and then looks at the growth rings. And then
he can see somehow that in 1981, most likely in the summer, that's literally how detailed they can get, some kind of
damage to the tree took place. And when his colleague examines things further, he can pinpoint some trace of petroleum,
aka diesel fuel. And like it is that petroleum or that diesel fuel that caused the damage. They didn't stop
there, though, because they can even tell that branches on the other side of the tree away from where Vicki said that
the barrel was placed, those are totally fine. They didn't have the same damage.
So, unless someone else just happened to be randomly burning a barrel next to this same side of this tree in the
summer of 81, like she's telling the truth. Yeah. Our girl's story is spot on. Yes. And the truth can be dangerous
when you're up against Fred Grabby because according to the police files that we have, this is where Fred's old
buddy Dale suddenly comes back on the scene. Police get a tip from a guy named Jim who says that Dale approached him
and was feeling him out for a murder for hire job on Vicki. What did Dale get arrested for this? Uh, doesn't sound
like it. I don't see I know. I don't see anything about him being arrested or like what came of this anywhere in the
file. Now, like maybe we have to take all of this with a grain of salt because it should be noted that Jim had a long
criminal record himself. He' just been arrested for counterfeit or counterfeiting something, whatever. I
mean, he could have been making all of this up to get himself out of trouble or like get himself a deal or whatever. I
don't know. And again, Dale's no longer alive, so I can't ask him. Either way, possible murder for Higher Plot or not,
the trial does go on as planned. Prosecutors are able to prove their case to the jury by putting those tree
experts on the stand along with Vicki and Fred's own children who do not hold back. The Journal Gazette and Times
Courier reports that Jenny describes at times seeing bruising on her mother's arms and her face. And it appears that
all of this is enough for the jury because in June 1985, Fred is convicted of Charlotte's murder. But that is not
where our story ends. Not even close. Because just a few weeks after his conviction, a mother of three named
Barbara Graham walks into the Clark County Jail and whips out a gun because she's there to break her boyfriend Fred
out of jail. [Music] Barbara fires off five shots, one of which hits a deputy in the leg. Another
shot literally goes through a second deputy's pant leg, nearly wounding them, too. It is just total chaos before
deputies are finally able to wrestle the gun from Barbara and end this bananas breakout attempt. Did Fred put Barbara
up to this? Well, Fred told us that Barbara basically informed him of her plan while he was behind bars, Fred's
like, "No, babe. It's a bad idea. Don't do it." But, but of course, like, when you talk to anyone who's not Fred, like
the story is very different. When authorities interview Barbara, she told them that Fred was instructing her on
things to do, like making sure she practiced with the gun, making sure she packed clothes for him, and he was
pressuring her to spend all of her time working on getting him out. And the whole thing gets even wilder when she
tells authorities that the getaway plan was to hop on a private plane and fly to
Florida, pick up new identification there, and then fly to South America, which like how? And yeah, like to really
drive any suspicion home, authorities think that the gun used in all of this was actually the same gun that was found
in Charlotte's car back when she was missing, when they found her car. Like, so apparently after the grand jury like
let down back in ' 81, they gave that gun back to Fred. What? I I know. I mean, again, like Jenny told us that he
was the owner of it. So like I mean technically it would be his if that's true. Okay.
If I were cop suspecting a guy of murder, top of my to-do list after he skirts an indictment isn't return gun to
rightful owner. Like especially when that man is the person who possibly just got out of a murder charge. I know. And
I don't know if they have to because there was no indictment in my mind. I've seen people hold evidence forever. Yeah.
Like it's still evidence. I know. I don't know. I don't know. Does this little jailbreak attempt plot twist
result in like additional charges for Fred now? Um well, so because he was just convicted of his wife's murder and
prosecutors figure he's I I mean I'm assuming this is what they're thinking like he's going to be away for a long
time. Like though he still has yet to be sentenced at that point, they don't actually pursue charges against him for
all of this. Barbara though is another story. Per the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, she gets charged with attempted
murder and two counts of armed violence. I'm sorry, Ashley. I feel like I need to
see like a picture of Fred or something. Like what kind of power does he have over these women to get them do this
like truly wild stuff for everyone? I literally had the same thought when I was researching this cuz I was I didn't
look at a ton of pictures like off the bat and I was like, "Okay, he's like getting women to do a ton of like wild
stuff for him. Who is this cult leader? It's not what you're going to expect." Okay. Okay. I truly don't know what to
expect. Here's our guy. Okay. Okay. Not the beautiful, handsome, charismatic looking. Maybe in his younger years. H.
All right. Moving on. Now, whatever hold he had over them, what whoever he found
that he was able to manipulate, like it's not just like his wife that he killed that suffered, like I I feel like
there were so many devastating consequences to these women. Like Barbara, who reminder, mother of three,
ends up getting sentenced to 16 years in prison for this stunt. But with Fred sitting in jail, breakout attempt
thwarted, and his sentencing on the horizon, authorities have to be ready to get this guy locked up for good and move
on. But in early September, less than 2 months after this breakout attempt, authorities have their hands full with
another crime that maybe could be connected to Fred. On September 4th, 1985, authorities get
a call that they probably can't believe. As reported by the Heraldton Review, it's from a truck driver who, while
passing the Grappy property, sees not one, but two homes on fire. One is the main house where Charlotte lived, and
the other is a smaller house once occupied by her son Jeff and his wife Cindy. Thankfully, when this all
happens, no one is inside. But immediately, authorities suspect that this is arson. And it's not long before
they get proof of it when they discover that some kind of flammable liquid was used to start these fires or like get
them going. I mean, it's Fred, right? Not like Fred Fred cuz he's in county lockup, but like but like it's Fred,
someone for Fred. So, in the Forensic Files episode, Dan Crummer, the acting sheriff at the time, suspects just that.
But we actually dug a little deeper on this. Uh, my new favorite saying, always go a layer deeper. Um, and Jenny told us
something else that has been suggested by law enforcement, but never actually proven. She says that it was actually
her brother Jeff who burned down the homes. And she said that he admitted this to her. She thinks it was maybe an
attempt to get the insurance money, possibly with Fred, maybe on his own. Like, that's not totally clear.
According to her recollection though, that was never actually paid out. And it sounds like, at least according to the
Journal Gazette and Times Courier, these homes were caught up in some kind of legal mess at the time. Anyways, so
whatever the plan was, I'm not sure that it worked for whoever had that plan. But
it's important to point out that it doesn't appear police could ever connect Fred or anyone else, not Jeff, to these
fires. All they could do was speculate at the time. About a week after this fire, this is when Fred does get
sentenced and he gets sentenced to life in prison. So at this point for law enforcement and the Grabby family,
justice is finally served. But that feeling is short-lived. Roughly a year after his original sentencing, Fred's
case gets overturned on appeal. This is in September of 1986, and a new trial gets ordered. According to the Journal
Gazette, it's overturned because the courts find jurors were given improper instructions concerning Vickiy's
testimony specifically. I mean, all a good defense attorney needs is to find one small crack. And it sounds like they
found one. Well, that and get the right judge in the right county because I mean, I've seen like other cases where
there's like a gaping hole you could run a truck through and those get denied. So, while prosecutors wait to retry Fred
for Charlotte's murder, they decide to go after him for his possible involvement with the escape attempt back
in 1985 to keep him locked up. Now, initially, they knew Fred would go away for a long time. So, remember, they
didn't see the point in taking him to court on those minor charges, but now with his ruling overturned, like, okay,
let's get him on something. But their plan doesn't work. First, there's a mistrial for that. Then, Fred is
acquitted for that. So, the stakes in Fred's retrial for Charlotte's murder hold even more weight now. In March
1988, the new trial is about to begin. And much like the first time Fred's children, Jenny and Jeff, are supposed
to testify against their dad. But there's a problem. Jeff's wife Cindy hasn't heard from Jeff in days. He's
like fully MIA, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Like, he was scheduled to testify again. Wait, is he
like missing missing or just like hiding out avoiding the trial? I don't think anyone really knows. At least one source
at the time reported that he might have been trying to dodge his creditor. So, I
think everyone is just really confused at first. Jeff's wife, Cindy, tells authorities that Jeff had taken a
business trip to California. She last talked to him on February 28th when he called her from there. And then a couple
of days later, after he's like a no-show back home, that's when she reports him missing.
No one can find Jeff in Indiana or California until June when authorities announced that they have found Jeff in
Seal Beach, California. But it's not a happy development because they find him dead. And not just dead, Jeff has been
murdered. What? He was shot multiple times and found floating in the water by some boers. Now, authorities technically
found Jeff's body on March 22nd, but they couldn't identify him right away. They had to actually go get his dental
records. Is Fred like a puppet master behind bars or just like the luckiest piece of crap alive? So, Fred, of
course, denies any involvement in his son's murder. And actually, in this one, he might not be lying because California
authorities did seem to have a pretty detailed idea of what happened to Jeff. Like I guess he had gotten caught up in
some kind of money laundering and bank fraud thing. In a Los Angeles Times article, police described Jeff as double
crossing the people that he was working with. So Jeff was shot and his body was then dumped in the ocean weighed down by
an anchor and then eventually as his body decomposed, that's when it like floated to the surface. Did anyone get
charged in Jeff's murder? No. So, even though they had a pretty good idea of what they think happened and even some
of the people involved, it sounds like prosecutors never actually felt they had a strong enough case to be able to bring
charges in that one. Now, the very smallest piece of solace and good news for Jenny in this like mountain of
tragedy that is her life now is that even though her brother wasn't around to testify, Fred's trial did move forward
as planned. And he was convicted again. This time he's sentenced to 75 years. And this one sticks. Despite Fred's best
efforts to once again have it overturned in 1989, it doesn't work. And he remains
in prison until very recently, July 15th, 2022, when he gets released almost 41 years exactly after he murdered
Charlotte in July of 1981. And did Vicki end up with any of the reward money? Uh,
uh, Jenny told us that she got part of it. So, yesish. Now, as far as her father, Jenny told us that she long ago
forgave him. She said what was most difficult for her was not knowing what happened to her mother when she first
disappeared. And you how she talked about how bad she feels for families who still don't have those answers. We've
talked about it before like how hard it's one thing to like grieve something and know what you're grieving, but to
like not know, right? And as we were talking to her about this, this was like originally all the episode was. We were
like this was going to even potentially be a mini. But she said something as we were talking to her, something she
thinks about her father, something that if true might mean we don't know the full extent
of Fred Grabby's crimes. And it opened up this like Pandora's box for us. Jenny believes that her father could be behind
as many as six other killings. I'm sorry, six other people. What makes her think that? Well, she
thinks this because one of them she says she witnessed herself when she was about
seven years old and then the other ones are based on what people told her over the years because she didn't stop
digging once her father went to jail. Like as she pressed on for more answers and from what she was told, it sounds
like wherever Fred Grabby went, death seemed to follow. And this wasn't a totally new idea. Like Vicki was also
vocal about Fred allegedly having other victims. According to the Journal Gazette and Times Courier, Vicki
testified in Fred's trial that he told her about other murders he committed. Two of the other victims were women and
their killings happened at an apartment in Indianapolis and were connected to some kind of union dispute that he was
in charge of taking care of. And she alleged that Fred also killed a man who shot his dog when he was younger. But
like Fred told Emily when when she confronted him about this that like it was one of his buddies who did this and
it got pinned on him. So he's not like saying it didn't happen. Were any of these ever investigated?
So this is this is the thing. I'm saying it's a Pandora's box. We don't know. Like details on these are super scarce.
Believe me, we still have our team digging like still going. It's part of why I wanted to put this episode out now
as opposed to waiting because there's a lot of power in our audience and someone
out there might have information for us. And I think we're running out of time because Fred is 85 years old. Jenny told
us that she doesn't think he's in good health. Obviously, she doesn't go visit him. Again, forgiving him and having a
relationship with him are very different things. But we went and visited him. When our
reporter Emily interviewed Fred at the retirement facility he's currently living in, she asked him about these
alleged other murders that people like Jenny and Vicki point to. And she asked him about Charlotte's murder, too. And
while Fred admits that he was a violent man at times, involved in numerous fights back in the day, he denied
murdering anyone, including Charlotte, despite being found guilty by two separate juries. He claims he was never
even abusive to Charlotte. And you would think that the least Fred could do at this point in his life is face what he's
done, if not for himself, than for his surviving daughter. But no. And we asked him about the houseires, too. He
conveniently put that all on Jeff, his dead son, never implicating himself. But I think it is important to know that
those house fires not the only ones somewhat connected to Fred. Charlotte's stepmom, Ethel Gore, was found dead in a
barnfire. A barnfire that had one single witness, Fred Grabby. And according to a
single source, Ethel's leg was broken and there was a lighter near her body. But Ethel's family told the Terraote
star back then that a lighter is not something she would normally carry around with her. Now, when we asked Fred
about this, he told Emily that Ethel smoked in the barn all the time. So, who knows? But wait, there's more. So,
Charlotte's best friend, Judy Lindley, she was found dead of a gunshot wound to her chest just 4 months to the day after
Charlotte went missing. And Emily got the inquest records for Judy's death. And get this, no autopsy was done. And
the results of the inquest were quote probable suicide. But this is the thing that I have have a problem with. Like
Judy was found in her bed on top of the covers. The gun that she probably took her own life with was under the covers.
M. That that can't happen. That's not possible. It's I I I I can't figure out how. Doesn't make sense. I know. Now, it
bears repeating that Fred has never been arrested or charged in anyone else's murder, and he's never been named a
public person of interest or even a suspect in another murder either. We reached out to the former Clark County
Sheriff, Dan Crumin, but he wasn't interested in talking. If he changes his mind, like, I'd love to listen to what
he has to say. And like I said, we're still going to keep digging to see what else we find. I mean, again, there are
like potentially alleged victims that like we can't even necessarily find cases that match to. So, we're trying to
figure that out as well. So, make sure you follow us on social. We also have a newsletter. Like, this is how we like
get all the updates to you that we like don't fit into an episode like every single week or the, you know, the stuff
that we like keep digging on. Yeah. And obviously you said we're still digging. We're still working on this, but was M
ever able to track down Vicki? like she's who I have all the questions for, girl. Same. So, this is wild. So, we
tried. Emily actually went to Vicky's house and it was so strange. So, this woman who looks a whole lot like Vicki
answered the door, but she said she wasn't Vicki. So, I don't know. I mean, I can't really
blame her for not wanting to talk after all these years. If that was her, if it was her, it seems like she possibly
would have a lot to lose. like she's never faced any jail time. She had immunity. Yeah. But
but said it wasn't her. Right. So if Vicki hears this, if you're listening somewhere, like I would still love to
talk. Please reach out. But I kind of want to end on this. So Jenny told us that her mom Charlotte was a loving
mother and grandmother. Most of all, she was a hard worker. And Charlotte grew up
in a farming family that instilled the same work ethic in her. And whether Jenny realizes it or not, that work
ethic, her continued push for answers in her mother's case is maybe the best way
she could have honored her mother's memory. [Music]

Today we carefully examine the tragic disappearance of Charlotte Grabbe, a 39-year-old mother who vanished from her family’s farm in Marshall, Illinois, on July 24, 1981, amidst a challenging divorce from her husband, Fred Grabbe. We follow the determined efforts of Charlotte’s daughter, Jennie Grabbe, son Jeff Grabbe, and his wife Cindy, as they searched for clues after discovering Charlotte’s tractor abandoned in a shed near their rural Clark County home, not far from I-70 and the Wabash River. The investigation, led by Sheriff James “Red” Thompson, relied on key testimony from Fred’s former partner, Vickie Jane McCalister, and uncovered critical details about Charlotte’s fate. This recounting highlights the family’s strength, the case’s complexities, and its lasting significance in true crime history.

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Brief Summary

Charlotte Grabby went missing in 1981; her children suspect her abusive husband Fred, leading to shocking revelations about her murder.

Key points

The Disappearance of Charlotte Grabby. Charlotte Grabby goes missing under suspicious circumstances, leading her family to fear the worst.
Witness Accounts. Neighbors dispute Fred's claim about Charlotte's whereabouts, raising more questions about her disappearance.
A Chilling Letter. Charlotte's safety deposit box reveals a letter where she fears for her life amid her divorce.
The Search for Charlotte. Authorities struggle to find Charlotte in the vast rural landscape, leading to desperation.
The Grand Jury. Fred and Vicki plead the fifth in front of the grand jury, leaving Jenny and Jeff frustrated.
Vicki's Shocking Testimony. Vicki reveals the gruesome details of Charlotte's murder and Fred's actions afterward.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

If she ever didn't come home, something was up.

2:29WatchApr 11, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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