Did Early Errors Bury the Truth in Bonnie's Unsolved Disappearance? | Forensic Files

Hi Crime Junkies, I'm your host Ashley Flowers. >> Brit. >> And we're back for part two of Bonnie's
story. If you missed last episode, pause, go back, you got to know where we've been to know where we're going.
Because >> [music] >> where we left off, I'm sure it's easy for you to understand why people have
been suspicious of Bonnie's husband since she went missing >> [music] >> in 1997. Bonnie and Rick's son even
admitted to us that for a portion of his life growing [music] up, he wondered if
his dad could have done something because he had everybody in his ear telling him [music] as much. He said he
would even be willing to accept that his dad did it if police could prove it. Show him any evidence, even a theory
[music] of how that makes actual sense and show him that they've looked into everyone
[music] else. But they didn't. So we tried and I think there is an entirely different [music] side to this story
that hasn't been told. Until now. When I say that police never really looked into anyone else because they
were so suspicious of Rick, I also want to be clear that I don't think they ever
really did a thorough enough look at Rick to justify their suspicions. They never searched his house in those early
years. They only searched it in 2000 when Rick was getting the house ready to sell. The police I guess had heard that
he changed out the carpet and there might have been a stain on the subfloor. So they got a warrant, ripped up the
carpet, tested [music] the stain, but it wasn't any kind of bodily fluid. They didn't do any kind of forensic testing
in the garage, which like in my mind, if your theory is that he followed her, wouldn't it make sense that something
happened in the garage? No one even bothers to check for that. >> So they're really just basing their
suspicions on Rick on like what? The fact that she wanted a divorce and the number one mom necklace that Gretchen
gave investigators. Like that's not a lot. And I think the fact that he knew where to look for her and on the route
that we know she drove home. And also, I didn't mention this yet, but on phone records, Bonnie had a cell phone with
her [music] and Rick said that he tried to call her when she was missing, but police say that the home phone records
don't show any calls and the cell phone provider says that there had been no activity on Bonnie's cell since like a
day or two before she went missing. But the problem I have with this is they never got Rick's cell phone records. And
when we asked to see Bonnie's records to prove that there were no unanswered incoming calls, the police said they
don't have them. They said there was like some kind of issue getting the records from the phone company, so they
were just told verbally by her provider, which I don't know. I've seen enough human error over the years that like
that is not going to like convince it or like I'm not going to convict someone for that based on that.
>> Well, yeah, and I also wonder what the cell provider actually logged. Like did
unanswered incoming calls even register back then? I mean, there's so many questions.
>> I don't know for sure since we could not obviously get the actual records and I
know every provider is different and we're talking 1997, that's a whole different beast. But I mean, I've seen
in other true crime cases that date back to the '90s where back then it would only log the calls that would be charged
and you were only charged if you placed the call or answered the incoming call. >> was like an actual connected call.
>> Now, the other thing that I see police spend time asking Rick about in like the
transcripts that we got is a financial motive for wanting his wife gone. Before Bonnie went missing, the couple cashed
out on a life insurance policy for like $18,000 and they spent a lot of time talking
about this check that came for that. It came after Bonnie disappeared, but it's like not spicy at all to me. Rick had
taken out a loan against his like profit sharing plan at his company and without
getting to the weeds on this, it would basically be like taking out money against your 401k or something and he
was thinking about changing jobs, but if he changed jobs before it was paid off,
there would be this really big penalty. So they cashed out the life insurance policy that would by the way was on Rick
and they did it together. People knew that Bonnie was aware of it. >> Okay. Some say that she had to kind of
be like talked into it, but she was aware of it. >> And like it's a financial decision.
Maybe she legitimately did need to be talked into it, right? >> Yeah, and investigators confirmed that
the money did go to paying off that profit sharing thing. [music] So it's not like he's making money off her going
missing. >> Did she have any other life insurance policies? She did. She had two and they
totaled like 50 grand, but those are life insurance. Like you get paid out when someone is dead, not if someone
just goes missing. So while he does end up getting that, he doesn't see a dime of that until he has Bonnie declared
dead seven years later in 2004. Yeah, I guess I don't think money is like the driving thing here and no
matter what happened, right? >> Agreed. I mean, they never had a lot of money, not before Bonnie went missing,
not after, [music] but they also didn't have money problems. They lived within their means,
they tried to take care of their kids and Rick carried that on after Bonnie was gone.
>> [music] >> The kids lived with him in Indy and then in Kalamazoo, Michigan where Rick
eventually moved in 2000 for a new job and it was probably a good fresh start for him and for Gretchen and Josh.
Though Josh didn't go right away. He was 18 by that point. He stayed behind in Indy for a couple of years, but it was
good because here in Indy, there was always this cloud of suspicion hanging over Rick, but without investigators
ever really pulling the trigger. So it's like he can't clear his name. You just like live in this weird limbo.
>> And did they ever do any more interviews with him? Like even ask him about some of the weird
stuff? It doesn't seem like it. At least not for a long time. In 2007, the law enforcement division of the Marion
County Sheriff's Department and the Indianapolis Police Department, so there were two different agencies at the time.
They consolidated and that's what we now know as IMPD and that is who is the lead agency
today. So around that time, that's when Detective Katherine Byron finally goes up to Michigan and has another
conversation with Rick like 10 years in the making [music] and Josh gave us that transcript as
well. So I figured you should hear exactly what Rick had to say. Now again, I would have loved for you to hear it
from his own mouth, but our records request from IMPD was denied, right? So we're having voice actors read this
transcript. Whenever there's a controversial trial, do you ever wonder, did the jury get it
right? I'm Brandi Churchwell and this [music] is the 13th Juror podcast where we break
down real court cases and put you in the juror's seat. All right, jury entering courtroom.
When the gavel [music] falls, the jury's decision may be final, but the debate is
far from over. Listen to 13th Juror [music] wherever you get your podcasts. We the jury find as follows as to the
count. >> [music] >> This is a tape statement being conducted by Katherine Byron of the Indianapolis
Metropolitan Police Department. Today's date is April 25th, 2007. The time is now approximately 10:25 a.m. and we are
located in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Present are myself and Mr. Richard Schultz. Okay.
Um I guess this is a meeting that's been what? 10 years in the making? Pretty close. And I called you about what? Uh
six weeks ago? Something like that. Yes. Completely out of the blue, right? Yeah.
Um so this is really other than that initial phone call and a couple of scheduling phone calls here and there,
this is really the first time we've had an opportunity to talk. Correct. Okay. And And I am recently the new
detective reassigned to your wife's case, Bonnie. The missing person's case. Um I know it's been 10 years, but what can
you remember? What can you tell me about that? Can you just kind of start from the beginning for me and
Well, again, the night of July 3rd, 1997, um Bonnie was going out with people she
worked with. I believe it was somebody's birthday party for somebody she worked with.
Um I don't even remember where she said they were going. Um but she left the house at 8:00, 8:30
in the evening um and again went went with the people from work who again, because of the nature of her work, I I
didn't know any of them because they worked late night evenings and I was home with the kids. Right. Um and and
again, I know it's been 10 years, so um what did you do? What What's your best recollection of that evening?
I was home with Gretchen. >> Mhm. I'm pretty sure Josh spent the night with friends, but Gretchen and I were at
home. I don't remember specifically what we did. I don't remember necessarily going
anywhere, but she was only 10. So um we were at home. She went to bed whatever time she normally did.
Um she got up the next morning, I think around 8:00, 8:30 or something like that. That's her normal time. Bonnie
wasn't home yet and I didn't know specifically who she had gone out with the night before, so
I waited a little while to see if, you know, if she maybe stayed somewhere else and was going to come home and then
started looking around the house for trying to find a list of names of people she worked with. And
so later that day in the afternoon, and I don't remember exactly when in the afternoon, I think I found a list of
some of the people and Anita's name was on there. That's the lady she said that she was going out with. Uh I called her
house a a of times and got no answer. And then later that day, which would be the 4th of July, Anita's daughter called
and said that my number had come up on her caller ID a couple of times. I said I was trying to get a hold of her mom to
see if she knew where Bonnie was. And Anita's daughter must have called her and then I talked to Anita and she said
well, as far as she knew Bonnie had headed home. So that that's when I called the sheriff's department to file
a missing person's report late afternoon on July 4th. And they squad car person, that's not the right
term, but came over and took the statement and said that somebody would be in contact with me in a day or two.
Now just jumping in real quick, I gave you the short version last time of how he got in contact with Anita, but this
is similar to the story that he told 10 years prior. So so far everything is pretty consistent. Uh I I guess at what
point did you start to think something was not right? As soon as I talked to Anita, I think.
Cuz she had said Bonnie had headed home. And I knew she hadn't gotten there. So obviously that was my when I got
concerned. Cuz you know, I thought maybe if again they partied too much or whatever, she stayed with a friend and
would get home sooner or later that that next day. But once that lady told me that
that wasn't the case and that's that's what triggered the call to the sheriff's department. Is that a common occurrence?
No. That >> No. That Bonnie wouldn't come home. >> No, not at all. So that's why when I woke up the next
morning or when Gretchen woke up, I don't remember exactly who got up first, I realized she wasn't there. So then I
was trying to find out uh again who she might have been with or a phone number or whatever, but
um it took me a while to find some stuff around the house. Right. That was really kind of before
everybody had a cell phone and >> Well, actually she did have a phone. Did she? She did have a cell phone and
and again we tried to call that and got no answer. And I don't remember who the service was
with, but for several weeks after that I called them on a daily basis to see if there had been any activity on the on
the line. Because first of all, they said well, you have to wait till you get your statement. I said well, I don't
want to wait a month. Then I can explain the situation and then I I was calling every day or every other day to see if
anything or if anybody had used the phone during the course of that time. It hadn't been used at all.
Hold up. Was Detective Byron playing dumb about the cell phone to see what he said or did no one look at the cell
until 2007? I'm not sure if she's playing dumb or if she hadn't reviewed like the old notes yet and like wasn't
up to speed. >> Yeah, but he brings it up. Like why bring it up if you're lying?
>> Right. Why point it out? >> Yeah, and it seems like he's going out of his way to check the cell. Also, he's
saying that he called Anita on the 4th and talked to her before he reported Bonnie missing. He didn't call her until
the next day though. Right. So that this is a small inconsistency, but this is 10
years later and he's a day off. Like maybe it's a slip. But to me it doesn't change the facts
that much. >> Yeah, but it like the slip up does give him like the reason to know where the
Timeout Lounge is now, which is what back then they said the big mess up was. >> Sure, but I mean they they can just go
back and listen to his recorded interview from '97 and then be right back where we started. So like to me
it's not like he's like fooling at any I don't know. We could go round and round
and round. So let's just go back to the tape. Okay. And the car? Uh never found as far as I can. As far
as I know. That's what Sergeant Kelly, Mike Kelly Mhm. That's what he said was his biggest surprise.
Uh bodies are much more easy to hide than than a big car. So and that was his biggest surprise after
the last time we talked, which I don't even remember when that was, was it the efforts that he had gone through to try
and find the car. But uh And did you ever talk to Sergeant Ryan? Sergeant Ryan? Uh that's actually who I took the
case from. You know, I believe I got a phone call at some point in time that he I think it was a he
>> Mhm. uh had taken had taken the case. And when I moved up here, I called him,
got his answering service and said that I was, you know, for for job reasons was
moving up here. Mhm. And left him the at that point in time my new office number
cuz I didn't have the home number yet. When did you move up here? August of 2000. But he never called.
It's been at least that long since I've heard from anybody. Right. That was probably kind of shocking when you get
my phone call. Yes. Cuz I think I as I think I told you on the phone conversation, you know, I had a meeting
with five or six different people from the sheriff's department. Um deputy chief.
I'm sorry the names escape me. That's okay. Um cuz you know, I wasn't real happy with the way I was being treated.
I mean, I understood or I still understand I guess that I'm a I'm a suspect, but I've often thought,
you know, I'm a victim too and nobody was telling me anything. Right. And not that I I mean, I watch too much TV. I
know. Not that I expect to get all the inside information, but it would it would be nice to at least have been told
some of what was found out or whatever. But at that point in time they told me that they had pretty much done
everything that they could do. And and again I got assurance from, you know, two or three levels up from the
people that I had been talking with that everything was being done that could be
done. And um that they were just going away for something to happen. Either they find the car or or they find
Bonnie or somebody comes forward and says I got something or I know something. And
I something like that ever happened, they would contact me. Quick pause. I got to be really honest here. 10 years
on, Rick is seeming pretty reasonable. I know. >> Like no one seems to be doing much outside of
just thinking he's kind of sus. And they're basically like well, we hope we find her or her car or someone
confesses and we'll just let you know if that happens. It's very much like a like
don't call us, we'll call you vibes. Yeah. And have they done any actual searches for her or I mean the car I
mean in the past 10 years? Like I know the family did, but what about the actual detectives on the case?
>> So they did extensive searching. Like they did multiple air searches. I know with like a helicopter looking for signs
of her car. I know they also did several water searches over the years, but they
didn't have sonar back in 1997. So they had to use a police dive team and when they did that, they didn't find
anything. And they did a lot of legwork too, but all the legwork was very much like around this like any idea that
could help them prove like the Rick did it theory. So they went to all these storage units in the Indianapolis area I
think looking for her car. They checked all of the bus records and cab records thinking that if Rick got rid of her and
her car, he would have had to get a ride back home, but they never found that he
was on any buses or took any cab. No storage units either. So going back to the tape, in this interview, they ask
Rick what he thought could have happened. What is your theory? 10 years, what is
>> [snorts] >> what is what has gone through your mind in 10 years? You know, the TV guy, Scott, asked me that over
the phone and it's like, you know, I don't know. I guess, you know, it's as I told him originally, I said I
don't think she would just voluntarily leave, especially her children. If she encountered something that she
couldn't get herself out of, I mean, you'd think again the car would have been found by now. Uh if she had a
accident, I mean, the car would have been found right away. So I mean, I don't know. I don't know how you hide
something like that for that long a period of time. Uh unless and I still don't think I don't think
she voluntarily ran away. And if she did, I don't think she would stay away this long. But
>> Right. It'd be pretty hard for someone to conceal herself and the car for this
amount of time. But the other thing is is if somebody took her, how did they how how did they hide the car for this
long a period of time? I mean, I watch TV and stuff like that. That's based on real events, but you know, it gets
stretched or whatever. I mean, you could park a car in your garage, but would you
leave it sit there for 10 years and nobody would nobody else would see it? That doesn't seem to make any sense. So
I don't know. I I guess inside I don't think that she would have voluntarily run away. So I
think again either she had too much to drink that night and encountered a situation that she couldn't get herself
out of, but what that could be, I don't know. So just like a quick behind the scenes
real quick. So in the transcript, the part where he says you could leave it in your garage, but like would you do that
for 10 years and nobody would see it. That is actually highlighted and starred like someone found it important. I don't
know who, but it kind of seems like someone was like, ah, maybe he's like slipping up and telling us what he did.
Like Which like, sure. Too bad they didn't look in the garage right after she disappeared. They waited like what,
a decade for that to actually happen? >> Three years. Like it was three years when they went back to check. But like
also there's no way it was in the garage. Gretchen was there, she lived there. Josh was there, he lived there.
>> Yeah, her her family, Bonnie's family, came the next week. Like they're all driving around in the cars that they
had. And I don't know, again, I don't know what it means. I only brought it up because I feel like it just gives you a
little bit of context and a sense that I think that they might have come into this interview with a strong opinion.
And this is really, you know, what Josh has been saying, that all the work that they're willing to do is to
try to look at Rick, try to get Rick to slip up, and it doesn't seem like they're really looking for other
investigative avenues, [music] even 10 years later when she and the car still haven't been found.
Um, and there were some marital problems, right? [snorts] Yeah, there was. Uh, and who doesn't? I
mean, what what marriage is without problems? What were the issues? Do you remember? You
know, I I've spent a lot of time thinking about that over the years. And um you know, Bonnie, I think, and again, in
in thinking back, you know, she changed quite a bit after her mother died. Her mother died 2 years before this
happened, I believe. And uh she [snorts] died of some type of cancer, but I mean, it was 2 months
after being diagnosed. Oh, it was quick. I think it hit her pretty hard. And then I started getting things, you
know, we don't have anything in common. And I I was comparing again over the years. That's what I see, saw in her
parents. Her mother was a genealogy person, and her dad was was a fisherman and stuff like that.
They had nothing in common, and I said, well, we're not unlike anybody else. I mean, we we each have our own interests,
but what we have in common are is the family. And uh it just seemed like she just started
getting more and more unhappy with lots of things. Uh, she said a couple of times she
wasn't happy because her family didn't come to visit her often enough. She [sighs]
uh she always had to go see them. And uh just she changed. And uh again uh I don't know if it was her mother or
or she had just became unhappy with me or life in general, but uh she just things that didn't bother her
before seemed to start bothering her. Did you ever talk about suicide? Never. Never. Again, she talked about thinking
about wanting to get a divorce. I said, well, you know, you should there should be some intermediate steps
between going from I'm unhappy to a divorce, which is what I was trying to talk her into before she disappeared.
And she seemed to be listening to that after a while. Um you know, we had a fairly long conversation that night
before she left about if we did divorce, what would or what would happen. She wanted to keep the kids and the house,
uh and I said, well, I don't know if I can do that. Now, he goes on to say some of the same
things he did in 1997. That financially he didn't know if they could swing two places, but he was
willing to try. Like his gesture to see if she wouldn't completely throw in the towel. He reiterates that they weren't
shouting that night. Nothing got out of control. They were out on the front porch in the view of Gretchen inside and
close to other neighbors. They they don't live out in the country. They like lived in a subdivision. So, at this
point in the interview, that's when Detective Byron asks him about Bonnie's affair, point blank. It's 10 years
later. Was Bonnie having an affair? Not that I know of. Not that you know of. I'm sure you've heard that over the
years or >> Several people have asked, but not that I know of. Um and you didn't remarry?
No. Over the 10 years? No. Gone about on a few dates, but it just it just doesn't
feel right. Still that hope. Really? Tell me about that. Uh I'm hoping she'll come back.
It's not very likely, but I I hate to give up hope. Has this been weighing on you for the last 6 weeks? I
mean, not not to mention 10 years, but has it? No. Has my phone call brought it to surface again? No. No? Cuz it
>> [sighs and gasps] >> it's always there. It never goes away. You know, the kids are, you know,
Gretchen's out on her own, more or less. Josh works or whatever. He's gone. Um sitting here with the dog at night.
And uh you know, that's it. It never goes away. And uh yeah. We haven't sat down and had a
face-to-face contact with anybody outside of the three of us for a long time. But um
again, I you know, I've been up here for 6 and 1/2 years. Uh I haven't had any desire to date anybody
or whatever in that period of time. I went out a couple of times when I was in Indy, right?
Not right away, but after a while. But it just it just wasn't right. And I still
still feel that way. And it's like, you know, you just you do what you have to to get by day by
day, and uh I know I had nothing to do with her disappearance, so that's what gets me
through day by day. I would love to know what happened. Sometimes I'm leery about wanting to
find out how it happened, cuz I don't know if I want to know the details. But I would sure like to know what
what happened. When you say the details, what do you mean? Well, I mean, if somebody murdered her,
I don't know what I want to know all of the details. Okay. Uh you know, did you suffer? That type of stuff. Um I don't
need to know that stuff. I'm not uh um not a tabloid type of person or whatever.
I mean, I watch the major news events or whatever, but the gory details don't really interest me. Like the Virginia
Tech stuff. I mean, obviously you want to know that stuff is going on, but the the tapes or whatever that were
released, which I I never did see. I don't really need to know all that type of stuff, but uh
again, I think we all like to know what happened. But how or um not sure who we'd like to know who if
something like that did happen. That's the the most difficult part of it all is not not knowing what happened. The lack
of closure. Although, you know I I've thought about that over the years, too. I don't know that there in a situation
like this that there ever is closure. I think there's a again, you know what? Resolution? Yeah, uh
and and close. I I know what most people mean when they say closure. It gives you
you know what happened. And I guess going forward from there and dealing with that is easier than what we've been
dealing with for 10 years. And that's we don't know what. Is there anything you found out that you
can tell me or us? No, not yet. Um like I said, I was just recently reassigned to the case. So, I'm starting
over looking at it with fresh eyes. So, I'm in the process right now sorting through everything and seeing what I can
do. So, unfortunately, no, I I don't really think I have anything new to tell you. I wish I that
this case can be resolved. I do believe that. What What is that based on? Just Detective Byron basically just says
based on the facts of the case, she thinks it's solvable and everyone deserves that, especially Bonnie's
family, her kids. She wants them to know that their mom didn't leave them. And then she hard pivots back to the morning
of July 4th asking what his first thoughts were. But he just says more of the same that he said back in '97. I
mean, it does feel like he's a little all over the map, though. Like he said earlier in the interview that he doesn't
believe that she just walked off, that she had to have encountered some kind of situation that she just couldn't get
herself out of. But then he talks about her like maybe coming back someday, even
if that's like some slim possibility. But maybe we're just getting a bite-sized version of what his mind has
been doing for the last 10 years. Like families of the missing say that ambiguous loss is the hardest. Without
knowing what happened, everything is a possibility. And listen, I'm not out here trying to be like the defender of
Rick. I'm just saying that like I've gone back and forth more times than I can even count on cases we've covered
over the last 8 years. I've gone back and forth more times than I can count on this very case alone over the last few
months. >> Right. And I'm not the one living with it day in and day out. But like Rick,
this is something he actually says. He tells Detective Byron he is living it >> [music]
>> every single day. He and the kids still talk about her. He sees things all the
time that remind him of Bonnie, and he is much more emotional, he says, as he's gotten older. Just very sentimental. And
it's at that point that Detective Byron brings the conversation back to a more focused question. She asks Rick if there
is anything that he thinks she should know. And it's not new information that he brings up. He's like, you know,
"I'm pretty frustrated with Detective Mike Kelly." He was the OG detective. Because apparently he went on a local TV
segment about Bonnie's case and talked about her leaving the bar the same time as that John guy we talked about. But
he's like, "That's how I had to find out about this John guy. Mike Kelly never told me."
Oh, it was on a TV show? That's what bothered me is why he felt he could disclose that on what was it,
national TV on TV, but he never felt that he should tell me that beforehand. Cuz again, I kept calling and asking if
if he was coming up with anything or whatever. Obviously, I was curious and wanted to know, but he for the longest
time he wouldn't call me back. And that's what kind of triggered my I think I wrote a letter to the sheriff.
Yeah. Saying, you know, I just don't think I'm being treated right. Again, from my naivety and
I just thought I just thought people should at least be telling me what's going on. But as far
as what I can tell you, it's like I said, she left home that night at 8:30 and I haven't heard or seen a thing from
her since then. Now, at first, this was like one of the only things I couldn't wrap
my head around from his whole second interview was this like time when he's asked if he thought Bonnie was having an
affair and he says he doesn't think so cuz it seems like such a big part of the narrative now. Yeah. But maybe he really
had no idea. I mean, remember her friend Anita and John? I mean, they clearly knew Jeremy Johnson had an affair with
her, but they're not talking to Rick. And if I go back to news reports from those very early days, even early years,
an affair is not mentioned. So, it's possible he really was in the dark even when police weren't.
Now, a year after that interview with Rick, the case ends up getting transferred again to a new lead
detective, Sergeant Daniel Kistner, who he's the one who we talked to for this episode. And he and another detective
decide to go back up to Michigan in 2008. >> [music] >> And in that time, they did a nearly
7-hour interview with Rick. Now, we don't have the transcript of that one and Sergeant Kistner wouldn't give it to
us, but he told us that Rick had vivid memories of his whole life except for the weeks leading up to Bonnie's
disappearance. [music] He kept saying that he couldn't recall many of the details and Sergeant Kistner
said that the interview got pretty tense [music] when he called him on it and suggested that he knew more. And after
that, IMPD ended up getting a search warrant for Rick's place up in Michigan and they collected all the electronic
devices in the house and Sergeant Kistner says they were also looking for that number one mom necklace, which now
all these years later was nowhere to be found. >> So, they take these devices, what were
they looking for on them? Cuz I assume that like they weren't the same phones or computers they had in '97. Literally
anything. I mean, Sergeant Kistner said they were looking for anything that could have like had a connection [music]
to Bonnie's disappearance like maybe in messages, in documents or browser search
history. And Sergeant Kistner says they did find out that Rick was keeping an eye on local Indianapolis news,
but not for anything specific. And they didn't find anything else that could have been connected to Bonnie's
disappearance. So, nothing comes of that search. And Josh told us that IMPD returned their computers and phones a
couple of years later, but they returned everything broken. And and this is the real kicker to me,
I get why the relationship is strained between them and police because I guess when they were doing the search of the
house, they found like a tiny amount of weed when they were searching in Josh's room or somewhere on Josh, whatever.
And he legit got charged for it. Sergeant Kistner said that he had no idea that happened. He said that would
have been done by like Michigan police and he never would have done that. He was just there to find out what happened
to Bonnie. Like he wouldn't have had any [music] interest in busting a kid for weed.
But listen, I'm not saying the police are wrong about their theory, but I I genuinely
still don't know what I think. But I fully get why the kids would be frustrated with them. Like
this whole scenario that's unfolding feels really frustrated and pointed and not backed by much.
>> Yeah, and and like at least from the way that Rick tells it, like or for what I've seen from his
transcripts, right? Like he's the one asking for updates and not getting much. Josh and his dad and relatives are the
ones out there searching for the whole weekend before the sheriff's office put anyone on the case. They're learning
stuff through the media. And now even the kids are treated like criminals. And Josh's wife Crystal told us that part of
the reason Gretchen doesn't like talking to people is because they always accuse
her of knowing more. That like [music] she was in the house that night and, you know, maybe it's not as big as her
covering up for something, but that she has to have like some secret piece of information locked away in her brain
about whether her dad left the house that night or if she heard her mom come home and something happened. And listen,
we heard this from multiple sources in our reporting. We heard it from investigators, even their own Uncle
Mike. But this is where I'm saying, just like hold on for 1 second. I get so many things look bad. But for 1 second,
if we kept an open mind, if we believed Gretchen that she doesn't know anything more. Her mom left. She
went to bed. When she woke up, her mom wasn't there, but her dad was and everything was normal.
What if there is nothing more to tell? What if we don't know what happened to Bonnie because her family truly doesn't
know and that is the only place anyone has really looked. So, remember Diane? Mhm. Bonnie's like
neighbor friend or like who lived close to her? >> Yeah. She was one of the people who
instantly became suspicious of Rick. This is Can I tell you something spooky that happened?
>> Always. >> full body chills when I was going through the the file and like all of the
interviews. So, losing her friend and never knowing what happened obviously is just something that never
left her. And when a reporter was interviewing her, she said that over the years at
like all different stages of [music] life, she had gone to mediums, three different ones, all separate. And each
one told her the same thing. They all said, "It's not who you think that did it."
What? What does that Maybe maybe nothing. What does that mean if not cuz cuz she thinks
like she said as soon as she's always thought >> she's always thought it's Rick. And
listen, even she's asking the same question I I like you started to ask because she was like if not him, then
who? Yes. She's like if not him, then who? If it's some random person, you don't need to make her car and her purse
and her credit cards and all that disappear. Yeah. Diane thinks it had to be someone she knew,
which is why she just like kept coming back to Rick, but then kept going to mediums who kept saying she was wrong.
Like Well, I mean, okay, but what if it is someone she knew, just someone else? Yeah, what if?
>> Or an accident. Or what if she walked off? Like I know it's almost unheard of, but
recently I came across the case of Brenda Heist. I was not familiar with this before, but her daughter reached
out to me and she is who I've had in the back of my head as I've been telling the
story because I know the easy answer is the husband. But it wasn't that way in her case.
Brenda, very much the same scenario. She was divorcing her husband and on the day
she disappeared, she was supposed to go look at apartments after dropping her kids off at school and then she just
vanished. And just like Rick, her daughter told us that her dad lived under suspicion for years. Everyone said
Brenda would never leave her kids. She has to be dead. And then guess what? 11 years later, Brenda was found alive
and well. She just left. Didn't plan it. Just like that morning said, "You know what? I'm going to start over." And
sure, yes, accident is still an option, too, but accident feels less likely the more bodies of water that are searched
over the years. Which bodies of water is like what people have always said, like
it had to have been a body of water that she went into and that's why the car has
never been found. But the currently detective on the case, Nicholas Hubbs, says that there have been more than 20
water searches for Bonnie's car in the past 10 years, lots with sonar now that they have it, including some done by a
private group. But I have to wonder, are we like making a wrong assumption there?
About what? About the car being in water because like on its face, you read about this case
and it's like, oh, like her car, you know, it was entered into like whatever whatever database,
the license plate or the VIN number, it's never popped up. So, like it has to be in water cuz that's why nobody's ever
found it. Maybe not? So, I was shocked when I talked to Josh and we learned that
investigators actually messed up in 1997. [music] Now, he's telling us this and we're like,
there's no like >> Let's let's double check, yeah. Turns out he's right. You see, the way it used
to work in 1997 was that an officer would make the report, make a phone call to the auto desk to have a vehicle
entered into NCIC, and it would either get entered as stolen or they would give information to have someone entered as
missing. So, it looks like in Bonnie's case, when a deputy called it in here, they only entered Bonnie as missing.
Now, they noted that her car was gone, too, but I don't think they actually entered the vehicle into the system at
the same time. >> So, it was just like and her car, but there was no details, not what it was,
no VIN, no license plate number. >> as a missing vehicle. >> Yeah. It wasn't until some point in 1999
when another detective comes across this case and is doing all of his like checks
and balances that he discovers the vehicle is not in the system as missing or stolen. Now, when this was realized,
they were able to go back and see if any agency had run the plate in the missing
2 years, but no one had. But to me, it also means that maybe no one was actively looking out for it, which the
detective admitted to us was a missed opportunity. So, if the plate is never run, then the car is hidden somehow,
right? Which is why I think people keep going back to water, but Like I don't I don't know. I just like
but we know it's not in the water. So, like if it's an accident, I just have a hard time believing the accident thing.
Like when you think about the route from the bar to her home, it's not a super rural area. An accident on land would
have been noticed like almost all the route she went home. And the bodies of water on her way home have been
searched. So, like someone hid the thing. Okay, so let's just play this out. So, like that's not
an accident to me. You know what [laughter] I mean? Let's just play this out for a second.
How would Rick get rid of his wife's body and car in like kind of a short amount of time?
We're talking about like what? 4 5 hours maybe? >> This is what I'm saying. Show me how it
happened. Like the easy answer is a body of water. That's why everyone keeps talking about water. But which one? I
don't know if anyone's been to Indy recently. Like we don't just have like massive remote bodies of water.
Yeah, we have like plenty of little ones all over, but most of them are open access. There are like houses around
them where people would see. You might even see tire tracks that would stand out. Or there's like guardrails if the
water is close to the road. And like I said, the ones that have places that you could easily drive something into
between Broad Ripple, that area, and her house, those have been searched. Like I
Okay, but again, the focus is on the area between the bar and her house. The person we have saying she was headed
to her house was the guy she was having an affair with, right? >> Yeah. That's that's that's how we know
she's going No in like air quotes. >> Every Everything is based on that. And investigators, they've always said they
deem him credible and [music] not involved in her disappearance. But I mean, since I don't have their records,
I don't know all the ins and outs of why other than the fact that they say he passed a polygraph. And unfortunately,
he died in 2006, so we couldn't talk to him now. But we did get in touch with John's daughter, Kim. And what she told
us was brand new information to us and to investigators when we passed it along to them. So, she was 16 back in 1997.
She didn't live in Indy. She actually lived in Texas with her mother. But by some stroke of cold case luck,
she was visiting Indianapolis to see her dad that 4th of July weekend. She told us that her dad was actually planning to
introduce her to Bonnie at an outdoor concert on the 4th called Uncle Sam Jam. I guess the concert had one of her
favorite bands, the Barenaked Ladies. We actually checked this. The concert did happen that weekend, so she [music] is
spot on. And she said that her dad hadn't introduced her to other women. And so, she took this as him This was
big. Yeah, this was like he's like very smitten with her. She knew. But she says
that Friday, Bonnie never showed up. And she remembered her dad getting really worried and him saying that this wasn't
like [music] her. She said it pretty much ruined the entire day because he seemed so worried about it. Wait. I
thought John gets told that she's missing on Saturday by Anita. That is what John told police, yeah.
But his daughter's saying that she knew something was wrong on Friday. Yes. Now, it's not like he could call her
house or show up to get her, right? Like they're having a secret affair. >> But she had a cell. Like he he could
have called her. So, and this is the thing. Kim told us that she thinks he did try her cell, but he couldn't reach
her, which brings me back to those cell phone records. Yes, it feels even more likely to me that no activity means that
like calls didn't connect, not that no one tried calling. But why didn't he try calling Anita or anything though? Like
there were other people that he spent time with that knew Bonnie that he could have like seen where it what what
happened. Like have you heard from her? Whatever. I thought about this. The innocent explanation, which I do think
is very believable, is that he didn't think that she was like missing missing. I mean, he knew things at home were
tough. She was about to leave her husband. He might have just assumed that things got complicated at [music] home.
But the thing that I can't wrap my head around is in that scenario though, why not tell police that you were supposed
to meet her on Friday and she didn't show up? >> Yeah, that feels like a kind of a big
piece of like the timeline puzzle, right? >> When we told Sergeant Kistner about
this, he said he had never heard anything about Bonnie not showing up to meet John at the concert on Friday, and
he doesn't know why John wouldn't have mentioned that. And like this was one of the moments where he's like, you know,
it's really frustrating to have come onto this case so many years after when it's already too late to get questions
answered from John, who again died in 2006. Now, he said he did go door knocking at
one point and talked to one of John's good friends. And this was recent, like just about a year ago. The guy's name is
Brad Beach, and Brad told him that John took Bonnie's disappearance really hard.
Kistner said that Brad told him that John carried guilt, that he should have followed her home or like he should have
done something to protect her. Like we tried talking to Brad ourselves, but we never got a response. We also reached
out to Kim's two half-brothers, who were John's sons from a previous relationship, but neither of them
responded to our messages. So, we really only had Kim to talk to you about who her dad was. And I mean, she said that
he was, quote, a drinker even before Bonnie went missing. So, she doesn't know like how much Bonnie's
disappearance impacted him in the following months and years because really after that, they didn't talk
often. Was she staying with him though that night? Like can she at least confirm that he came home and was there
after he's like said he waved goodbye to Bonnie? >> No, she actually stayed with a different
family member while she was in town. Which like listen, I'm not saying that John's story isn't true or that he had
anything to do with Bonnie going missing. But what I'm saying is like the double standard is wild. Like you have
John with no one to verify his story, and you have Rick who has his daughter at home saying nothing happened. And
Rick's a liar. John might have called Bonnie on Friday. We know Rick says that he did, but
there's no activity on her phone. But Rick is the liar. Like it doesn't seem fair.
>> Right. Now, we also tried talking to Anita cuz like I have a million questions for that one.
But she ignored us. You know who else she ignored? Bonnie's kids. Josh said that he has tried a bunch of
different times to talk to Anita over the years. Like even reached out to her daughter and said that she pretty much
just hung up on him. And I was talking about this with one of our reporters, and they were like, well, you know, she
made it clear to detectives that she was suspicious of Rick. She's always thought
that the kids were very much on his side. So, like maybe she wouldn't want to talk to them. Okay, I get it, maybe.
But then I found out that Diane tried to reach out to her, too. I mean, everyone
right now is looking for answers and clues. And the same way people are like, oh, Gretchen must know something. I
think everyone wants to talk to Anita thinking there's For sure. >> some hidden clue like locked away in her
brain if they can dissect every word Bonnie said that night or her exact movements, like whatever. So, Diane got
Anita's name from one of the detectives. She called her and she's like, hey, I know everything about Bonnie and Rick
and what was going on. >> like, at this point still pretty hardcore Rick did it.
>> But she's like, I would love to know more about what happened before Bonnie came to the party that night. And this
is what Anita told her. I would never betray her trust. And Diane's like, no, you like you don't
understand. Like I want to know so we can figure out She trusted me, too. We're on the same team. to know if
Rick's involved, and maybe this will help. And her response was, I would never tell anything about Bonnie to
anyone. [music] What? Listen, girl, if I am missing and there is even a chance that I did not walk
away and someone killed me, spill my secrets. Like what are we doing here? >> yap. You don't have to worry.
>> [laughter] >> But like is Bonnie going to know you shared something? And and sharing it
again like with another friend of hers that she was clearly confiding in. Like again, like I said, like she trusted me,
too. We're on the same team. Feels like the safest person. And like also someone
who can identify with what you're feeling like as someone who like has their friend missing. And like they
confided in you. They trusted you. It's really odd. I don't know if Anita still feels this way almost 30 years later.
But again, like I mean, to us, she definitely didn't seem to want to talk about Bonnie even now. And if you want
to say she's scared or whatever, Rick died in 2022. So, if she was keeping quiet because she was afraid of him,
that shouldn't be a problem anymore. And I don't know if it was ever a real problem to begin with.
Cuz I did a thing. I know the thing you did, but I don't actually know what came
of it. Yeah. So, I'm I'm actually like dying to hear. So, okay. So, as some of our listeners may know, I have become
friends with Allison DuBois over the last like year or so. And some people will recognize her name
because of the show Medium. That's based off her life and the actual work that she did to help law enforcement solve
cases. That's what I knew her from. Some people will will her from Real Housewives where she was the guest at an
epic dinner party and predicted the downfall of a marriage. We all love her for different reasons.
Anyway, something in this case just really stood out to me. So, it that moment where I like I read or the
transcript of what Diane told our reporter, where she or I listened to it as well, but she's telling our reporter
that over the years she went to three different mediums and all three said the same thing. It's not who you think.
So, I got this idea. >> [laughter] >> I know a medium. >> Yeah, what if I ask the medium I know? I
know Listen, guys, I know it doesn't prove anything, but like I don't know. What if? It's 30 years on, like what do
we have to lose? Police are only looking at Rick. I'll try anything at this point.
So, I first asked Josh if it would be okay. He gave us his permission. So, I flew Allison out to Indy and I had her
do a reading. And let me preface this by telling you how she works. When she came to Indy, she had no idea
what case we were going to talk about. There is no way she would have known. Even if she would have known. Like
there's like very little This is the most in-depth story that's ever been done on Bonnie's case.
So, when she does a reading, what I give her is someone's picture and their first name.
Not like a picture of them and their family or like I mean just Just them. Just them and their first name. So,
she takes it, she goes into a room, and like we had cameras and stuff. Like she does like this like weird scribble thing
or whatever, and she's able to make a connection, which I asked her before, I'm like, "Hey, if someone's missing,
Like what what do you get if someone's missing?" >> Yeah, and she's like, "I I cannot
connect if they are not dead." So, the fact that she was able to make a connection told me that Bonnie is not
out there alive and well somewhere. Now, she when she started talking about Bonnie, she said that she was very
nurturing. She would have never walked away, and whatever happened to her wasn't an accident, either.
Someone targeted her, and it was someone she did not know. What? >> Girl, I'm telling you, I did not tell
her anything about Bonnie's family or husband or kids or affair. She knew nothing about her life.
But she said that someone had been watching her. And isn't that something that John had mentioned?
>> Mhm. Everyone has always just assumed that someone is Rick. But when she's telling me this, and again, I'm not even
like at this point confirming for her anything. >> listening. >> Yeah, but she's saying that this person
who was watching her targeted her. And she said this was someone who has a record for burglary. She said he lived
nearby Bonnie, but not in a house, which was like very specific. And she thinks her remains are more likely in a wooded
area, somewhere with walking paths. And she kept saying that she kept seeing this scene [music]
where there were birds flying over this wooded area near a housing development that she said was it was built up, but
it still had some homes under construction. Which sent me into like a property record spiral, because I was like,
"Okay, where would have been wooded in '97 with houses being built, but still undeveloped almost 30 years later?" Long
story short, my best guess is [music] the Eagle Creek area. It's like a big city park.
>> There's tons of walking paths. >> Mhm. And that's like on the west side, like out where she would have lived. And
I did this kind of like vague call out on social media a few weeks ago about like asking people to send me housing
developments that would have been under construction around like late 1997, early 1998. And to be honest with you, I
don't even like know my next steps or what searching these areas would entail. I know at a minimum, I think I'll be
doing a lot of hiking when the weather warms up. So, if it really is someone that Bonnie
didn't know, not Rick, not John, how does this person encounter her? Because John waves goodbye to her while she's in
her car headed home. So, I have this like kind of theory, and I kind of talked it out eventually with
Allison after she did her whole reading, because one of the things she said in her reading before she knew anything was
that she was like seeing someone walking in between the homes. Like she's like, "Bonnie keeps showing me someone walking
in between the homes." And I wonder if she did make it home, but not inside. I think about them sitting on the porch
having this talk about their marriage, right? They're trying to like not probably not be around Gretchen and have
her hear everything. >> Not in the house. Right. But if they're sitting outside, she's telling Rick
outside what her plan is. She's going to like go away. She's not going to be home
till late. So, say there was somebody who had seen her, targeted, watched her. I mean, if they
were there earlier, they know that she is going to be alone pulling into the drive very late at night, early morning
hours. If they were following her somewhere else, they see her pull in. There is a world where she gets attacked
in her driveway. And yes, there are houses very close, but if it is swift, if it is quick,
>> And it happens in her car and he leaves with it. He leaves with it. How would
you How would anyone know? >> not like she has to stop. It's like she made it almost all the way to the like
Again, this is just I have nothing to base this on. >> her car stops in the driveway of her own
volition. He's not flagging her down. She doesn't have to pull over. It's where she's supposed to be stopping.
>> Right. And [music] so, as the conversations kept going with Allison, there's like there's so much more that
she told me, but I'm trying to keep it brief. But I did eventually give her Rick's picture, because he died, too.
And like she was like, "This man, no." She's like, "He is not violent." She's like, "He is a perfectionist. He
probably could be verbally like mean to Bonnie, but he has never killed anyone in his whole life."
And listen, I know people are going to think whatever they want to think of this. I I believe in stuff like this.
Some people will not, and that's okay. The thing that I like think about, though,
Allison aside, if that's true, if Rick did nothing, it would be really sad to think that he had to live the
rest of his life painted as a murderer by so many people. [music] He never got remarried. He like he said
he thought about Bonnie all the time. I don't know. And listen, you guys, I'm serious.
There's there is so much more that Allison said about Bonnie. But again, like I realize there are skeptics. I'm
trying to like keep it brief. So, if you're if you want to hear the whole thing, even the stuff that like I gave
her a moment to say like does she have anything to say to her son? I mean, [music] it was fascinating. I'm going to
drop the entire conversation as a fan club extra for anyone who's interested. I'm I I again, I'm just trying to give
you the big takeaways here. But I will leave you with something else that gives me like little tiny chills.
Like I've always seen like the critics are like, "Oh, Ashley, I roll." And like I know it's a little bit
generic, but it was like the last little like moment I had when putting together
this episode. So, I asked our reporter like as I'm finishing up, I'm like, "Hey, go to Josh. See if he has just any
final thoughts that he wants to share when we close out our episode." At the same time, I was about to go like
do my stuff with Allison DuBois. You know, it's different places, different times, whatever. So, I go do my thing
with Allison, and when I ask her to like say does she have anything to say to her
son? And the first line out of Allison's mouth was she said he never stopped looking for
me. And then she called him baby boy. She said a bunch more stuff, whatever. And so, I come back to finish, you know,
the outline for this episode, and the first line I get in my note from the reporter was
Josh has never given up searching for his mom. Oh my god. Chill. Like and it's It is a true statement. Although he and
his wife Crystal moved to Florida in 2023, they worked [music] with dive teams before they left. They were
looking for any sign of Bonnie. They scoured maps for any bodies of water that could be hidden or that could hide
a car. Now, one place he says he hasn't been able to search are quarries north of Indianapolis, but he's not even sure
if there would be access to put a car in the water [music] there. He says knowing
what happened to his mom has been brutal. It has made it harder for him to trust people,
and it's only compounded by the unanswered questions of whether his father, his own father, was involved in
her disappearance. Now, Josh doesn't believe that he was. He thinks someone else out there might hold the answers,
and he hopes that one day they'll come forward to give him and his family the relief of finally laying Bonnie to rest.
And I really do believe that there's hope for that. So, if you out there have any information about Bonnie's
disappearance or her missing vehicle, please contact the current detective, Detective Nicholas Hubbs at Indianapolis
Metropolitan Police Department. That's 317-327-6160, [music] or you can email us tips@audiochuck.com.
You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com. [music]
And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

Nearly 30 years after Bonnie Lee Schultz vanished, the case remains unsolved, but the questions are far more complicated than they first appeared.

Bonnie disappeared in the early morning hours of July 4, 1997, after spending the night with coworkers in Indianapolis, Indiana. She was last seen leaving the Time Out Lounge on Indianapolis’s north side, driving west in her blue 1990 Mercury Sable. Her car has never been found.

For decades, suspicion centered on Bonnie’s husband, Richard “Rick” Schultz, who was home with their children when she left and later reported her missing. But in Part 2, Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat examine what investigators actually did and didn’t do in the years that followed.

Why was Bonnie’s vehicle not immediately entered into the national system as missing? Why were key forensic searches delayed or never completed? And why were potential alternate leads never fully pursued?

This episode revisits long-overlooked interviews, newly surfaced witness accounts, and critical investigative gaps, including information that did not come to light until decades later. Through our original reporting, you’ll learn how early assumptions may have narrowed the investigation before it truly began, and as the focus widens beyond one suspect, new possibilities emerge.

Part 2 of our look into Bonnie’s case challenges the narrative that defined this case for years and asks whether the truth about what happened to Bonnie Lee Schultz has been hiding in plain sight. Hear Ashley’s conversation with medium Allison Dubois in the Crime Junkie Fan Club: https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/fanclub/

If you have any information about Bonnie’s disappearance or her missing vehicle, please contact Det. Nicholas Hubbs at Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department at 317-327-6160 or email us at tips@audiochuck.com.

-------- Key Episode Moments 0:00 - 0:57 - Case Intro 0:58 - 3:00 - Suspicion on Rick Schultz 3:01 - 5:11 - Life Insurance & Financial Questions 5:12 - 7:00 - 2007 Police Interview with Rick 7:01 - 10:00 - Cell Phone Record Issues 10:01 - 13:45 - Rick’s Account Revisited 13:46 - 17:58 - Police Focus on Rick 17:59 - 21:06 - Marriage Problems Examined 21:07 - 24:58 - Search Warrant & Electronics Seized 24:59 - 28:13 - John’s Timeline Questioned 28:14 - 31:59 - Anita’s Silence 32:00 - 36:05 - Theory #1: Rick Schultz 36:06 - 40:05 - Car Entry Error Discovered 40:06 - 44:52 - Theory #2: John 44:53 - 49:02 - Was Bonnie Targeted? 49:03 - 55:25 - Theory #3: Unknown Attacker 55:26 - 58:12 - Josh Still Searching 58:13 - 58:31 - Outro

Follow Crime Junkie: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crimejunkiepodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CrimeJunkiePodcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CrimeJunkiePod Crime Junkie is created and hosted by Ashley Flowers.

About Ashley Flowers Ashley Flowers is the top female podcaster in the U.S. and the host of Crime Junkie, the #1 podcast among women and the #1 true crime podcast globally. As the Founder of audiochuck, she has built a top-tier podcast production company that has garnered over 2.6 billion downloads, captivating audiences with its gripping storytelling through 10+ chart topping podcasts. Ashley and her team are dedicated to creating responsible true crime content that respects victims and their families.

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Check out these other great crime channels: @annieelise 100+ Skeletons Found in Man’s Home, Alabama House of Horrors & Nick Reiner Updates https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNjvFSpYFOI @kallmekris The Mysterious Life & Death Of Marilyn Monroe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQH9s2Z3RYo @KendallRae Killed By Her Ex-Lover After Confrontation With New Boyfriend?! The Case Of Alex Pennig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zz3PnRlEL0 @EleanorNeale The Women Who Solved Their Own Murders: Little Bridge Farm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vryzOu9gTLY

Brief Summary

The episode investigates Bonnie Schultz's 1997 disappearance, focusing on her husband Rick and the police's handling of the case.

Key points

The Missing Cell Phone Records. Questions arise about the lack of investigation into Rick's cell phone records during the case.
Rick's Financial Motive?. Investigators explore potential financial motives behind Bonnie's disappearance, but evidence is lacking.
The Long Wait for Answers. It took three years for investigators to check the garage after Bonnie's disappearance.
The Weight of Uncertainty. Rick expresses the emotional toll of not knowing what happened to Bonnie.
Mediums' Chilling Messages. Diane reveals that mediums told her it wasn't who she thought that did it.
Missing Vehicle Discovery. In 1999, a detective discovers Bonnie's vehicle was never entered as missing or stolen.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What?

1:41WatchJan 19, 2026

Tension

55/ 100Some tension

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