Denise and Aaron Quinn Get the Last Word | Post Mortem | Forensic Files

Welcome back to Postmortem. I'm 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty stepping in
as host today to talk with CBS News correspondent Tracy Smith on the West Coast about the high-profile case of
Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn. In March 2015, Denise was abducted by an intruder at
her boyfriend Aaron's home in Vallejo, California. The couple told detectives that both of them had been drugged,
blindfolded, and tied up, but they felt the police didn't believe their stories. Since then, they've
gotten married, continued to fight for justice for other victims of their attacker, Matthew Muller.
Tracy, thanks for joining me and sharing many more details about this very strange case. Thanks so much for having
me, Erin. You know, I love the phrase be your own hero. I tell my kids that sometimes. Denise and Aaron Quinn are
examples of that. Be your own hero. They were determined to find out what other crimes Muller had committed. And thanks
in part to their work, Muller admitted to a list of crimes going all the way back to 1993,
and that's how we got in touch with a woman who Muller says was his very first victim. She felt that law enforcement
didn't believe her back in 1993. She went three decades with no answers. And thanks to Denise and Aaron and the team
that they worked with, she finally found some justice. Tracy, this is such a strange story with a very strange
defendant, and I am anxious to get into these details. But before we get into our conversation, just a quick reminder.
If you haven't watched or listened to this episode, and it's called Denise and Aaron Quinn get the last word, go check
it out now, and then come back for our conversation. So, Tracy, a lot of our listeners may
have heard about this case from watching the Netflix docuseries American Nightmare. In that series, Denise and
Aaron shared details about their March 2015 attack and Denise's kidnapping. She was held captive for two days and raped
before her attacker drove her to Huntington Beach and then released her near her childhood home.
But when they reported this attack to the police, the couple said they were accused of making the whole thing up
until nearly 3 months later when another California home invasion led investigators to arrest their attacker.
He was 38-year-old Matthew Muller. So, what did you learn about Muller through your reporting, Tracy?
Well, you know, a lot was made at the time that Muller was arrested of how he was a Harvard-educated lawyer and a
former Marine. He'd also been an immigration attorney. He didn't have an extensive criminal history at the time
of his arrest in 2015, um which was for the second California home invasion, and then soon after he
was connected to Aaron and Denise Quinn's attack. Uh but Denise and Aaron were convinced that he had done this
before. He had told Denise when he had her in captivity that he had done this before. And sure enough, they were
right. So, what's new then in our 48 Hours report? Well, we tell the truly remarkable story about what has happened
since American Nightmare was released in 2024. Denise and Aaron told their story
back then, but they didn't want to stop there. They didn't want to move on. They
knew that there were other victims out there. So, they teamed up with Police Chief Nick Borges from Seaside,
California and a DA named Burn Pearson, who's the District Attorney of Eldorado County, um to uncover additional crimes
that Muller committed. And they really became this super team that found other victims and gave them some closure. Part
of the reason that they wanted to investigate further is that not only did Denise and Aaron think there were other
victims out there, they thought he wasn't working alone, and that those people could still be out there. When
Muller attacked them, he drugged them. He gave them blacked-out goggles, but they thought they heard several voices.
He told them that he wasn't working alone. So, in your report, we also hear from Police Chief Nick Borges, you
mentioned him, about how he wanted to help Denise and Aaron get answers, even though he wasn't even involved in the
original investigation. So, how did he get involved? He was watching Netflix and was, you know,
just stunned by what happened to them. And so, he reached out to Denise to apologize on behalf of all of law
enforcement. >> as your show also indicated, there was a real problem with the initial
investigation. After Denise was abducted and Aaron had no idea what had happened to her, he
went to the police, but to Aaron's horror, the police appeared not to believe him and even
seemed to accuse him of killing Denise. In the hour we see the interview with the lead detective that he conducted
with Aaron. And uh we have a portion of it. This is an edited portion of it, but
I just want to play this for you cuz you'll get the tone. Denise is going to be found.
And when I say she's found, she's dead. They did not come into your house and kidnap her and take her for ransom. That
did not happen. It didn't. No, it did not. Oh my god, it even gets worse. Two days
after being kidnapped, Denise was released, as we mentioned, in Huntington Beach, and so she spoke to the police
there. She sensed she wasn't being believed either, even though her story matched Aaron's account, and they hadn't
been able to communicate since the attack. I was also shocked that Denise says that
even though her attorney told the Vallejo police that she had been raped, they wouldn't set up a sexual assault
exam until she spoke directly with them. And we know that with these rape kits, time is of the essence. You have to do
it right away. Oh, yeah. Denise says that the Vallejo police told her that since she'd only talked to the
Huntington Beach police and not to them, they wouldn't let her get this rape kit
until after she talked to them. So, she says they interviewed her for 6 hours before they set up the test. And uh she
actually told Chief Borges that not being believed and going through that was actually more traumatic than the
assault itself. I mean, one thing that Denise and Aaron hope that law enforcement learns from this
case is that there's no typical way for a victim to react, and they really felt like everything they did was seen
through this lens of, well, they're guilty. They're lying. I mean, Aaron was saying that if we were too stoic, then
we're psychopaths. And if we're emotional, then we're playing for the cameras. He said, you know, you're
damned if you do and damned if you don't. There were allegations of additional issues with the original
investigation, too, right, Tracy? Oh, yeah. Um Denise and Aaron learned uh later that
the Vallejo police actually put Aaron's phone, which is the way that he was supposed to communicate with the
kidnappers, uh on airplane mode. So, they missed at least two calls from Muller while Aaron
was there at the police department being interviewed. Muller also sent anonymous
emails to the San Francisco Chronicle and the Vallejo PD saying this isn't a hoax, and he even included a photo of
where Denise was held captive. And Aaron says that even after Muller was arrested
and connected to their crime, that he felt like the police were still trying to tie the three of them together
saying, "Oh, well, then all three of them must have been in on it." Your investigation also shows that the media
has to be held accountable, too, because reporters also played a role in shaping
the story. I remember seeing headlines back in 2015 calling the kidnapping a hoax. Yes, this
is a bizarre case, so of course the media latched onto it and definitely played up this idea that it was a hoax.
And I think it does require some reflection on all of our parts, you know, even if we weren't covering that
case at the time. In fact, Julie Watts, who's the investigative correspondent for CBS News California, who we
interviewed for this hour, she didn't report on it back in 2015, but she's since done a lot of coverage of Denise
and Aaron's story. And she said it changed how she reports stories that now she thinks, "Okay, what if investigators
have this wrong, and the suspect is is innocent? You know, let me think about how this will affect not just the
victim, but the suspect if the story changes." I mean, it is a reminder that reporters
have to question the prosecutors and investigators, too, because they can get it wrong.
Um Matthew Muller took a plea deal, and in 2017, he received a sentence of 40 years, and
that was total for both a home invasion in Dublin, California and Denise and Aaron's attack. Denise and Aaron filed a
civil lawsuit against the city of Vallejo, and eventually settled for $2.5 million.
Yeah, that's right. Um the Vallejo Police Department did release a statement after the settlement, and
here's a portion of what they said. The Huskins-Quinn case was not publicly handled with the type of sensitivity a
case of this nature should have been handled with. So, they did release that statement. The police chief did
apologize for the department's comments in a letter that he sent to the Quinns. Uh we reached out to the Vallejo PD, and
they did not respond to our request for a comment. I would have liked to have heard what they had to say. Me, too. So,
fast forward to 2024. After Chief Borges saw the Netflix documentary and connected with Denise
and Aaron, he did something kind of interesting. He decided to write to Muller in prison in
an effort to get answers. And Muller wrote back. Yes, Muller wrote back. Chief Borges
actually jokes that the two of them became pen pals. Um So, he writes to Muller. Muller sends
this package of letters. And we have a clip where Borges talks about being alone in the police station when he gets
this package of letters. So, I was at my desk and there was the mail and I went, "Oh, he wrote another
letter." And I remember feeling the weight to it. I thought, I I don't know what's in here, but it is a
lot. There's a lot of pages. And I started to read these things. I'm by myself. And to understand my world, I'm
the police chief, the police officers are out on the street, and I'm reading these declarations. He was
giving details that I knew were accurate. I felt like this is this guy's confessing and I was bouncing off my
walls. I couldn't There was no one to talk to, but I was just bouncing off my walls like, "I can't believe this guy
just sent this." You know, I really like the police chief. I mean, he just seems like he
really was trying to get to the bottom of it. And it does seem that Muller was ready to come clean. So, what did he
actually tell Chief Borges? I have an excerpt from one of his declarations where he actually confesses to another
crime from 2009. So, he says, "The idea to raid a home and rape a woman developed in August or
September of 2009. I was in a manic state at the time due to bipolar disorder, though I do not believe I was
psychotic. In other words, it seems my decision-making was impaired and warped, but I did not believe reality to be
other than it would seem to another healthy person. Since I could not sleep at night, I began taking long walks in
the vicinity of my Menlo Park apartment. At some point, out of boredom or curiosity, I began watching people in
their homes first from the curb or driveway, but soon from outside their windows."
Okay, this gives me the creeps. This really makes me want to pull down shades all the time.
And this case also reminds me a little of the Golden State Killer who had once worked as a police officer. Both of
these cases, neither man on the surface seems like a violent criminal. And the crimes escalate in both of those
cases. And they also went for years without being caught. Um In the In the declaration, Muller confessed to two
crimes in Santa Clara County in 2009. So, that's 6 years before Denise and Aaron's attack. And he wrote that in
those cases he cased the neighborhood. He was researching which residences would be easy to get into. He tried the
locks. And he also hinted that there were more crimes, but he kind of just teased the details in those [music]
letters that he wrote to Borges. Welcome back. So, in 2024, El Dorado County District Attorney Vern Pierson
was also looking into Matthew Muller even though, like Chief Borges, he wasn't involved in the original
investigation. He wanted to speak with Muller directly and thought the best way to get him to
open up more was to use a strategy called science-based interviewing. Tracy, I've never heard about this. So,
can you talk about how science-based interviewing is different from other law enforcement interrogation techniques?
Sure, it Oh, it's fascinating to me. So, in science-based interviewing, you don't
have an established point of view going in. It's almost like you're Instead of playing know-it-all like, "Well, we know
what happened here." You're playing naive. And the idea is to just make somebody comfortable so that they're
willing to give you this information that you can then go investigate to see what's true and what's not. And And Vern
Pierson is a leading advocate for this type of investigating. And he says the goal here is a little different than
old-school law enforcement interviewing in that you're not trying to get a confession, you're just trying to get
information. I feel that we as journalists take a similar approach when we're talking to people who are accused
or convicted because we want them to talk. We want them just to tell us their side of the story without accusing them
or going into the interview overly aggressive. Yes, I I think this totally applies to what you and I do. Um I was
asking Pierson actually after the interview like, "What books should I get? And how can I find out more
information about science-based interviewing?" cuz it's just so interesting to me. I mean, I think
personally it made me think about how there's a performative aspect to what we do where sometimes I feel like to be
honest, I'm asking a question because it's good TV and not because it's going to elicit the information that I might
need. So, it really made me think about, you know, when I ask a question like, "How could you murder the mother of your
children?" Am I really expecting to get information there? And also you you do so much research. I do so
much research when we do these cases. I do also feel like sometimes I just want to show how much I know in a question
instead of playing naive like Pierson is talking about and just letting the information come out.
Well, and I'm guilty as charged in that. Sometimes I go into that prosecutor mode, but I also sometimes do it to see
how they react. Maybe they'll get mad at me and show some kind of their personality. But in this case, DA Vern
Pierson was trying to get information. So, he brought in a highly skilled FBI interviewer, and that was in November
2024 to meet personally with Matthew Muller. He was serving his sentence at an Arizona prison. Pierson was anxious to
see what else Muller might confess to. So, Tracy, what did he think the FBI interviewer would get Muller to reveal?
DA Pierson believes that Muller is very manipulative. So, he really wanted to bring in the best of the best, and that
was this FBI interviewer. Now, the FBI interviewer has to remain anonymous, which is why we blurred his face in the
hour. But he specializes in this science-based technique. And the goal was to see if Muller would confess to
more crimes, reveal his motivation, reveal whether he had accomplices. But boy, did this require patience because
Muller would talk for hours. He would go off on unrelatable tangents. I mean, I think the first interview was 8 hours.
So, can you imagine just sitting there trying to stay focused? I mean, just your rear end hurts after that time.
That's a long time to sit there in an interview, but they hung in. I And I think when we do two or three
hours, that's really long. I have to hand it to them. It My big question now was, did it sound like Muller was
telling the truth? Cuz it also sounds like he wants attention. He has these police officers and FBI agent listening
to him. Was he bragging? Well, he said that he had a religious transformation in prison, and so he wanted to be
upfront about the crimes that he'd committed. And you know, as we know now, some of what he was saying was indeed
the truth when they followed up on it. This is incredible, really. Muller told a story about attacking a
young couple at a campsite and then sexually assaulting the woman. He claimed that that was his first victim.
You happen to meet that incredibly brave woman in the hour when you sat down with
her. She had asked us to call her Lynn. That is not her real name and asked us not to show her face.
This was the first time that she was speaking publicly about something that had happened to her 30 or so years ago.
What was that interview like, Tracy? Oh my goodness. I mean, you know how this is.
I'm sitting down across from this person asking her to tell me about the most horrible moment of her life, a complete
stranger with cameras rolling. So, it was incredibly emotional, but she was so strong. I I wish you could see her face
because she was just remarkably composed and strong. Her husband was sitting right off camera. This is the guy who
was there when she was attacked. They've since gotten married. And you could tell
that they've leaned on each other through these years. And you also could see the the trauma
that's weighed on her for three decades. I mean, think about this. She would go home at night and she would draw the
shades. She couldn't have the windows open. She loved camping when she was a kid. She wouldn't go camping in a tent
because of what happened. She wouldn't wear sandals or flip-flops in case she had to run from an attacker. So, for her
to be able to share that with us was incredible. And we're so grateful that she sat with us to do that.
You know, Tracy, this hour really shows the impact on victims when they're not believed or listened to.
Matthew Muller was flown back to California to face charges for the two attempted rapes. There in January 2025,
Muller wrote another letter to Chief Borges indicating he had additional information, but this time he wanted to
provide it to Denise and Aaron. And Denise and Aaron wanted to speak with Muller in person, too, but investigators
advised them to sit in another room and listen. Muller and his attorney met with
DA Pierson, the FBI interviewer, and also Police Chief Borges. I'm curious. Why did Denise and Aaron
want to face Muller after everything they had gone through with him? I asked Denise the same thing. Why would you
want to sit with this guy? And she explained it really clearly. She said, she felt like he had the power,
obviously, when he had her in captivity and even afterward because of the way that the police, the media handled it,
she felt like he controlled the narrative, this Harvard-trained lawyer. Where did he go wrong? So, she wanted to
take that back. Um investigators thought that Muller may have wanted to further manipulate Denise and Aaron by getting
them in a room with him. And meanwhile, Denise and Aaron really wanted to get to
the bottom of whether he was acting alone and whether there were other victims out there. So, I totally saw
once I asked her from her perspective why she wanted to do that. >> I know, but I think she probably would
have been disappointed because he might have withheld that. I mean, I think the police were smart on this.
And as you just point out, Denise and Aaron were convinced that they heard other people with Muller the night of
the attack. And I really believed Aaron when I was listening to him talk. And while Denise was being held in
captivity, she thought she heard people, too. Is there any evidence that Muller was
working with more people? So, Chief Burgess won't rule it out. Um and you know, Aaron, like you said, he said,
"Well, this guy is not Inspector Gadget. Like, how can he be three places at once?" But, Pearson told us, as of now,
there's no solid evidence of other people. And we do have to remember that both Denise and Aaron were drugged and
wearing blacked-out goggles. You know, Muller claims that he was able to make it sound like he was in several
different places. He used a bunch of techniques to do that. Um the important thing that I thought DA Pearson said is
that because of the way that the initial investigation was handled, we may never
know. Oh, that is so worrisome. Although, I don't know why Muller would withhold information, but it is
worrisome. So, finally, by the summer of 2025, Matthew Muller was convicted of all the
charges brought as a result of the investigation spurred on by Denise and Aaron, including his first victim,
Lynn's case. We see at the end of the hour that Denise and Aaron continue to speak to
law enforcement, and they're trying to change how officers interview victims and suspects.
Can you tell me more about their advocacy? Sure. I mean, this is incredible. Denise and Aaron are working
with law enforcement. They're using this traumatic experience to help change the
way that officers treat both victims and suspects. So, they're collaborating with
DA Vern Pearson. They're educating law enforcement about the science-based interviewing that Pearson so believes
in. And Denise made a point of saying, you know, this is not just victims, but suspects that this aggressive
interviewing can result in false confessions, even as you know, Aaron, convictions.
And I asked Denise and Aaron, "What's the most important thing that they want law enforcement to learn from their
story?" We were hoping that by sharing our experience that whoever listened could take that with them. And if they
confronted a situation that seemed out of the ordinary or something that's a little like, "I don't know if I believe
this," that they could pause, not rush to judgment, and keep an open mind. We um are fortunate we're here together and
we were able to talk about it, but there are people who have been falsely arrested or
wrongfully convicted, and their lives are basically forever changed. And we have
opportunity to show and hopefully educate a headline or um a tweet or something does not give you the whole
story. Another big piece is is acknowledging bias and taking accountability. There's going to be
mistakes that are made. It's just it it's it's inevitable. Uh and what matters is if you make a
mistake, you acknowledge, accept it, and then try to learn from it and do something different. I mean, it's just
remarkable. Now, Denise and Aaron are both physical therapists by training, so it kind of makes sense that they want to
help people, but still, after this experience, to say we want to change the system, I I just find so powerful. How
is Lynn doing today? Lynn is great. At Muller's sentencing, she read a victim impact statement, and she carries that
in her purse still to this day, which just touched me so much. But, she's doing great. You know, she and her
husband uh play disc golf, and it actually makes perfect sense because she was scared to go outside after this
happened. So, they found this sport where they can be in a contained environment, but still outside, and it's
perfect for them. And she's actually able to go camping again. She's able to wear sandals again. All these little
things, you know, that she wasn't able to do for 30 years. I had never heard of disc golf. That's the first time I'd
ever seen it in your show. Also, it's amazing that Lynn and her husband stayed together as a couple after the attack.
And the same is true with Denise and Aaron. Were you surprised by that? You hear about people who go through trauma
like this, and it can it can either drive you apart or keep you together. And clearly, in this case, they leaned
on each other. I also think that in both of these cases, they weren't believed, and yet the person next to them never
stopped believing them. So, of course, that would create some sort of bond. Thanks for doing this story, Tracy, and
thank you for talking about it today. Thanks. And thank you all for listening. If you
like this episode, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

CBS News correspondent Tracy Smith and 48 Hours correspondent Erin Moriarty discuss the case of Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn, who were attacked at home by Matthew Muller in 2015.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

For video licensing inquiries, contact: licensing@veritone.com

Brief Summary

Denise Huskins and Aaron Quinn fight for justice after their abduction, uncovering more victims and advocating for change in law enforcement practices.

Key points

Denise and Aaron's Fight for Justice. After their traumatic experience, Denise and Aaron became advocates for other victims.
The Impact of Disbelief. Denise shares how not being believed was more traumatic than the assault itself.
Muller's Chilling Confession. Matthew Muller reveals disturbing details about his past crimes in letters to Chief Borges.
Denise and Aaron's Advocacy. Denise and Aaron are using their traumatic experience to change how law enforcement interviews victims and suspects.
Lynn's Recovery Journey. Lynn has found joy in disc golf and is reclaiming her life after trauma.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Be your own hero.

Tracy shares how Denise and Aaron embody this phrase.

1:03WatchApr 4, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

More from 48 Hours

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.