Defending Your Life | Full Episode + Killer Conversation Podcast | Forensic Files

Shooting has been a a hobby for me for at least the past 33 years. It helps you think in a way that is
tactical and practical as well. Personal security of course has always been a concern,
especially as a prosecutor. All rise. My name is Ron Dur. I'm a deputy prosecuting attorney for Snowish County.
I'm trying the Jerry Jones case now for the third time. The case has spanned approximately 17 years of my career.
This is um a shocking scene, I think, even to the veteran police officers who responded.
I'm Joe Ward. I'm a homicide detective for the Snowomish County Sheriff's Office, and I was here 17 years ago to
investigate the murder of Lee Jones. Mrs. Jones had received a lot of injuries to her body. She had over 60
wounds, slashes, stabs. She's in the bathtub while she is being killed. And she is vocal. She is yelling. She is
screaming. She is battling her asalent. It looked like she had fought for her life in that room and lost.
[Music] Jerry Jones says he heard a noise and responded and found his wife stabbed.
And as he found her, someone brushed by him and pushed him against the wall and cut his hand. Jerry's story is
unbelievable. [Music] Detective Ward begins to realize that it just doesn't add up and that he has the
the murder suspect right in front of him. It was a great relief to to get that first guilty verdict in this case.
We have the Ninth Circuit deciding that it was a weak circumstantial case and uh
that it should be retrieded. It's 2001 we did it the second time. The jury find the defendant Jerry Har Jones
guilty of the crime of murder first charge after that jury. A ver that was extremely satisfying. One that uh I
hoped meant the end of the case. The court of appeals of the state of Washington reverses us. Again, I'm quite
angry and embittered by what the court of appeals has done. As a prosecutor, there are certain cases
that resound in your consciousness that that affect you on some emotional level.
This was one of them. So, I was not looking forward to visiting that place yet again.
I came the dawn. Round three. Opening statement from the defense, Mr. Jones. Thank you, your honor. This trial had a
strange twist as the murder defendant acted as his own attorney. I've decided to represent myself. He just keeps
coming back. Nobody knows the case better than I do. It's almost as though he and I were
meant to show up in the same courtroom and fight this thing out. Defending your life.
[Music] I love my mother very much. And if I had any doubt whatsoever that my dad might have done it, I
wouldn't be standing by him like this. For almost 17 years, my sister and I can come down this evening. Kim Jones and
her younger sister, Beth, our other interview starts at about 6, have been on a mission. There's no way that he did
this. Trying to prove their father, Jerry Jones Jr. No, this is wrong. Is innocent of brutally killing their
mother, Lee. Has there ever been a moment where you've said, "Maybe dad did do this." No. No. You have to know my
dad. No. My dad is a very peaceful man. He never even raised his voice at anyone
in the family. Jerry, how you feeling? I'm feeling great. 48 Hours began following this story in 1999 when Jerry
Jones was released from prison for the first time. This is a dream come true after an appeals court ruled his lawyer
was ineffective. My dad deserves freedom just like everybody else. His release marked the beginning of an incredible
legal drama. In 2001, Jerry Jones was retrieded and reconvicted. And then remarkably, an appeals court reversed
that conviction because the jury didn't hear crucial evidence. Now Jones and his
daughters are back for round three. And this time, Jones will be represented by the man he says knows this case better
than anyone himself. All rise. Court is again in session. Do you have any legal training at all? No, I don't.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, if they can get a feel for me as a human being, then they'll be convinced that I
am not capable of murdering anyone. The evidence will tell you that I loved my wife. He'll be going toe-to-toe with the
man who has prosecuted him twice before. Please listen carefully to the evidence
in the case, Ron Dersh. We do our best to make sure that murderers don't get away with murder. The prosecutor will be
unable to prove to you that I murdered Lee for one very simple reason. I did not do it. And to ensure a fair
verdict, this jury won't hear about Jerry Jones's earlier trials or convictions. I'm not perfect. I've made
mistakes, but I'm not a murderer. I'd give anything if I could have her back right now.
[Music] It was Lee's beauty that first caught his attention back in 1970. I encountered the most gorgeous creature
I'd ever laid eyes on in my life. When Jerry was stationed in Vietnam, serving in the Air Force, she had these
beautiful brown eyes and the most gorgeous smile you've ever seen. And for me, it was just love at first sight.
They married in Vietnam and their first child, Kim, was born there. Within months, Jerry's tour ended and
Lee left her family behind and moved to the US to start a new life. Two more children are born. Mhm. Beth and Thomas.
Yes. Jerry retired after 20 years in the Air Force and the family moved to Buffalo, Washington, just outside
Seattle. They were just in the prime of their marriage. Look at those love birds. Oh, sweet. They were always
hugging each other. They were always kissing and just they were very close and very happy. Jerry became a
successful pharmaceutical salesman. Lee was a busy housewife raising three children. Everything in our home was
encouraging and positive. These are the last pictures of Lee taken at a Thanksgiving celebration.
Nine days later, she would be stabbed 63 times in the family bathtub. When my wife needed me the most,
I couldn't do it. I couldn't help her. On the night of December 3rd, 1988, Jerry and Lee were at home with
four-year-old Thomas. According to Jerry, Lee had put their son to sleep. then went to the hallway bathroom to
take a bath. Jazz music was playing from a radio in Jerry's study. He was across the hall in
the master bedroom. His shower was running in the adjoining bathroom. I heard this horrible scream,
one loud, piercing scream. I'd never heard anything like that before in my entire life.
Jerry says he raced towards the bathroom door. This is happening so quickly, so fast. You start perceiving that
something is coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you see more and more. And it's a knife. Jerry
remembers colliding with an intruder and reaching for the knife. And in the process, I suffered some cuts. I'm
knocked back. I hit my head against the wall. Boom. Fall to the floor. And I'm seeing these black and white flashing
lights. And when I got up, there was nobody in the hallway any longer. They immediately went into the bathroom.
And I encountered the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life. 911. What do you have? Hurry. Uh, my
wife. She has been stabbed repeatedly. I find my wife in the tub and she is struggling. I said, "My godly, what
happened?" She was trying to speak. I'm convinced of that. I can recall this this chattering sound of her teeth. Can
you tell me where she stabbed? All over. Okay. Is there a knife in her anywhere?
Do not remove the knife. Her eyes were wide open and she was looking right at me and I realized that she was losing
her physical life very rapidly. Will you help me help her? I'll try. What can I do? Is she breathing? I don't
think so, ma'am. I think she's dead. Amid this blood and chaos, Thomas woke up. I went upstairs and I found my
mother. She was in the bathtub and uh was bloody. No father on this earth would want his
son to see his mother in that condition. It was one of the most violent murders I've ever seen. She was viciously
attacked and she fought for her life. These are all scene photographs taken the night of the investigation.
Detective Joe Ward was the lead investigator. All I could see was that I had a wet and bloody man with a hand
wrapped in a towel and a dead wife in the bathroom. I think they had already made up their mind. Lee is dead. Jerry's
at home. Case is closed. We don't have any witnesses that saw anybody run from the house. We don't have any DNA.
There's really an absence of any evidence of an intruder. Jerry, did you murder your wife, Lee
Jones? No, I didn't, Peter. They didn't do an investigation that night, and within two hours, I found myself under
arrest for something I didn't do. Making an arrest that night without talking to anybody else other than my
dad was a very big mistake. I'm the one who knows what happened on that December
night better than anyone else. As daughters Kim and Beth listen to their father's opening statement, they know
this third trial may be his last. There was no reason, no motive and his best chance to prove. It was an intruder who
did it. Someone else murdered Lee Jones. You will hear that a disturbed teenage neighborhood boy committed this awful
crime. I think he's desperate. Too sure the finger is pointed elsewhere. [Music]
[Music] I lived in the shadow of the L, the uh the J train. It ran about 10 ft from my window.
My mom and dad owned a delicatess there for about 35 years. This Queens, New York neighborhood is a
long way from Everett, Washington. But for prosecutor Ron Dur, there's a close connection.
I think that Ron saw Lee Jones as someone similar to his mom. Mara Rosano is Ron's wife and also a
prosecutor. His mom was someone very special in his life. My mother was an immigrant and she
always spoke with heavily accented English. She was about 5'4 and uh her name was Elizabeth and everyone
called her Leah. and he's determined to get justice for Lee Jones. Here's the old case file,
even after all these years. This is all Jerry Jones. These are all his. Well, there's no doubt I'm sick of the case.
Not sick enough to let him go. [Music] As prosecutor Ron Dur begins his case, he's feeling the pressure. He's won
hundreds of trials, but now faces the possibility of professional humiliation. What if Jerry Jones, a self-taught
lawyer wannabe who Dur has convicted twice before, wins this case? That'd be a hard one to swallow, would
it? That'd be tough. Is Jerry a good attorney? I think he is. He's He's done a lot better than all I
have on occasion. Let's take you back to December 3rd of 1988. Dur believes his opposing council is in
fact his best evidence. The strongest piece of evidence is Jerry Jones. He is still here. He is still alive. Her
autopsy will show that. He tells the jury about Lee's defensive wounds, the blood spatter in the bathroom, and the
cuts on Jerry's right hand that Jerry says were caused by the intruder. They're consistent with a defensive move
on my part to knock the knife out of his hand when I encountered him in the hallway. Showing you exhibit number 121.
But a forensic expert testifies the cuts more likely occurred when Jerry's hand slid off the knife handle. How? Blood on
the hand of the asalent can be transferred to the handle of the knife, making it slippery. As he allegedly
stabbed Lee dozens of times report, Jerry counters with his own expert. It's a cut. That's all you can say. My
fingerprints were not on the knife. My blood was not on the knife. and my DNA is not on the knife. How on earth is it
possible to stab someone 63 times and yet leave no physical evidence whatsoever? I think that he rinsed off
the handle of that knife. I think he was fully aware that uh there would be some
testing, fingerprint or otherwise. The jury also hears that Jerry let crucial minutes pass. 3 5 minutes. 911.
Where do you hurry? Before calling 911. Let me give you a Jerry Lee is in the tub bleeding to death. And you still
haven't called 911. I don't get it. I don't get it either. But Ron believes he knows why. In the midst of
everything, four-year-old Thomas comes upstairs. And not just once, but several times, as far as we're able to tell. And
at this point, uh, Jerry's hands are already full. He's got a dying woman. He's got cuts on his hands. And here
comes his kid. Jerry takes Thomas back to his bedroom. If you didn't kill Lee, why in the world would you have taken
your young son, back downstairs, and left him there when you don't know whether or not the killer is still in
the house? Well, Peter, you're presuming, of course, that I'm thinking clearly, coherently, and logically at this point
in time. There is no intruder in the home, and there never was. The killer is Jerry Jones. He knows
Thomas is safe downstairs. Thomas comes upstairs again. This time, Jerry takes his son to Graham Smith, his next door
neighbor. As I open the door, uh Jerry was there on the porch. The judge has asked us to not show the faces of some
witnesses. Jerry said that he was watching TV. He was hit over the head and when he came to he found Lee leading
and stabbed. You tell your neighbor that you were struck on the head while watching TV. You tell the police that
you collided with the intruder. Two separate stories. I didn't tell two different stories. My response to him
was, "I hit my head and when I got up, I found Lee bleeding all over." It is only after he returns home that
Jerry finally calls 911. Yes, my wife. What's the address? 190 160. But he gives them the wrong
address. You're going to have to help me because we have a conflict with your address. Lead investigator Joe Ward
believes Jerry's mistake was intentional. I think that's just another part of his plan to delay the response
to the house just to make sure that his wife was dead. It took the police 10 minutes to find the house. And when they
went inside, they discovered Jerry wet and bloody. A forensic scientist testifies to scenarios of how the crotch
area of Jerry's jeans became stained with Lee's blood. One potential would be if the rail of a bathtub in this crime
scene had been saturated with blood and an individual sat on that rail. The other object that I know is long and
narrow and bloody is the limbs, the arms and legs of Lee Jones. I think at some point he is sitting on her to hold her
down. sitting on her while he's stabbing her. Yes. Not true, says Jerry Jones. I loved her. I did not murder my wife. I
could not do it. There was no reason for me to do it. In fact, Jerry says if he wanted Lee dead, he had his chance right
here in their bedroom. It was during a rough period in their marriage when the couple separated, Lee attempted suicide,
overdosing on sleeping pills. Jerry found her and rushed her to the emergency room.
Their separation was the best thing that ever happened to them. They really realized how much they appreciated each
other. Look at those love birds. Oh, how sweet. The couple soon reconciled. In the last
year um before my mom died, they were very close. Marriage was perfect maybe for him. But Lee's friends,
Barbara Sleeper and Mary McNotton, say right before she was murdered, Lee was looking for a way out. Jerry and his
daughters can say anything they want to. He can talk about how in love he was and
that they, you know, were reunited and everything else, but I knew that she wanted to get divorced. Isn't it
possible that Jerry Jones is innocent? I I don't see how it's possible. But Jerry Jones insists he knows who
really killed Lee. President, if you would raise your right hand, and he's about to put him on trial.
[Music] You think you'll see Busby today? Probably. You looking forward to that? Not looking
forward to that. No, Paul rise calls Daniel Busby. We're not allowed to show his face. Do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. I do. But for more than 16 years, Jerry
Jones has insisted this man is his wife's real killer. Danny Busby did it, Peter. There's no doubt in my mind about
that. Do you have a mouth on you back there? Yeah, you wise ass. Yeah. Prosecutor Ron Dur says there is no
evidence that Danny Busby, then a 15-year-old teenager, was involved. On December 3rd of 1988,
did you murder Lee Jones in her house in Boston? No. There is no connection basically between Danny Busby and the
crime scene that night. All the DNA evidence tends to exclude Danny Busby, but Ron knows Danny's tough guy presence
will vastly complicate his case. Chew a gun there. Yeah. Can you swallow that? No. He's kind of a loose cannon and I'm
concerned about that. At the time of Lee's murder, Danny was a friend of Beth Jones. I knew he had a
crush on me, a neighborhood loudmouth. He was always the one that would initiate something troublesome who liked
to tease Thomas, growling at him like a lion or tiger and just scaring him and antagonize Lee. He appeared to us to be
just an obnoxious teenage boy. We know that he has grown and developed into a very disturbed, vicious, uncaring,
brutal person. Now, for the first time in three trials, Jerry Jones is allowed to tell the jury about Danny Busby's
troubled past, a history of violence that Jerry says began the night that Lee died. He'll directly confront Busby
about his assaults against ex-girlfriends, and threats to kill people. It's evidence that Jerry Jones
hopes will convince the jury that Danny Busby is capable of murder. Mr. Mr. Do, do you have any questions, Mr. Busby? I
do. I think we're going to be allowed to paint him as the monster that he is. Would you describe yourself as prone to
violence? I have been in the past. Was it common for you to become so angry that you would lose control and black
out? Slightly. What's it like for you to look into Danny Busby's eyes? I see a disturbed person, a violent person, a
person almost without a soul. And would you describe yourself as having an uncontrollable temper at times? Yeah.
Jerry says it was that uncontrollable temper that exploded after Lee banned Danny from visiting and calling Beth.
But you continued calling Beth, did you not? Probably. You continued to come to the house asking for Beth, didn't you?
It's quite possible. Jerry claims that an enraged Dany was looking for Beth the night of the
murder, but found Lee instead. And he viciously stabbed and slashed and attacked her over and over and over
again that night. The problem with your allegation is that there's no physical evidence that Busby was at your home.
There's no witness that places him there. I think there is. I think there is. I think
Thomas was awakened by a growling sound. Do you recall ever growling at Thomas like a lion or a tiger to frighten him?
I don't recall. Are you saying that never happened? No. Saying I don't recall. Danny Busby growled at Thomas
prior to going upstairs and murdering Lee. And he is the only person who ever growled at Thomas. Ron Dur believes if
there were any growling sounds that night, they came from Jerry himself. Is there growling going on? Is Jerry Jones
grunting or growling while he's stabbing Lee? This is hard work. You take a look
at those autopsy photos. This is hard work. This is not easy stuff to do. Then there's Busby's long history of
violence against his girlfriends. Did you begin physically abusing Crystal? Yeah. Did you punch Vandra on the
shoulder numerous times? Yeah. Did you throw Joey to the ground? No, I pushed her. Your honor, I have no further
questions at this time. Things get even worse for the prosecution as those former girlfriends take the stand. You
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. We can't show their
faces. He was both verbally and physically mean. He could be kind and fun one minute and then freak out. He
would just kind of snap and change personalities. He'd be so furious. They're very sympathetic people. There's
just no question that he has put them through hell. He gave me a black eye. He started kicking the crap out of me.
Pretty much attacked me and spit in my face. But Ron Durst says Jerry is using Danny Busby as a convenient scapegoat.
Remember that when we look at what Danny Busby's done as an adult, he has not attempted to murder anyone on any
occasion. Did he, in your opinion, seriously try to kill you? No. He has not physically stabbed or assaulted
anyone in the way that we have in this case. Danny never threatened you with a knife or any kind of weapon, did he? No.
And the challenge is going to be to draw that line between Danny Busby as a 15year-old and Danny Busby as an adult.
Did he once tell your mother that she was dead? Yes. And has he also threatened to rape your mother? Yes.
If the jurors decide that Danny Busby is volatile enough to have done this, then
the case is lost. All rise. The defense may call the next witness. [Music] Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. Yes, I do. All of them wanted to be there. I do. All of
them wanted to testify. Yes, I do. All of them wanted to tell their stories. And all of them want to help free their
father. To do that, Jerry is counting on their testimony to put then 15-year-old
Danny Busby at the crime scene in December 1988. Were you ever present when Danny Busby
would growl at Thomas like a lion or a tiger? Yes, he did that very frequently. Did he ever growl at you? I think so.
Yes. What asked Jones, did Thomas hear on the night his mother was murdered 16 years ago when he was just four years
old? I remember it being more animallike than that. He said he woke up when he heard
growling noises and that a lion or a tiger got mom. He was repeating a lion or tiger had gotten mom. While I'm
watching them testify, I'm thinking, you know, this is amazing. These people are
flawless. They are polished. They are rehearsed. You think to yourself, "Damn it, wise
up." While Beth, Kim, and Thomas lovingly stand by their father, Jerry Jones knows that it is his testimony and
not his children's that jurors really want to hear. So, as his own attorney, he decides to take the stand and come
face to face with Ron Dur. A confrontation 16 years in the making. [Music] Once I knew that the case was coming
back, it was clear to me that there would be some sort of face off. I don't look at it as a match between Ron Dur
and myself. The defense would call Jerry Jones, your honor. I look at it as an opportunity to present the evidence to a
jury of 12 people. Solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and prove my innocence.
But before Ron faces Jerry, Jerry, did you kill your wife? I did not kill my wife. A public defender assigned by the
court to advise him asked Jones to explain his bizarre behavior after he discovered Lee had been stabbed. Did you
at any point that evening go and get wet? Yes. How did you do that? I ran into the
master bedroom and heard the water running in the shower and I went to turn it off and I felt a
sting on my hand and I looked and saw that it was bleeding and I just ran back out.
That's not the story Jerry told at his first trial. Cross examination. Yes, sir. Thank you. Ron believes he's caught
Jerry in a lie. He whips out the transcripts and reads Jerry's own words back to him.
I open the shower door and instead of reaching in and turning the shower off, I step inside.
Clothes and all, I let the water run from the top of my head down the front of my body. You're called testifying to
that effect in 1989. If if that's what it says, that's obviously what I testified to.
I have no further questions. After just a handful of questions, Dur retreats. I was amazed at how few questions Ron
Dur asked me. I believe he was fairly convinced that he had lost the trial. I expected you to take off the gloves that
this was going to be a bare knuckle confrontation with Jerry and it seems like he played a little patty cake. Was
that a strategy? Were you Did you choke? I couldn't get mad at him at that point. Just because I
have a stick to hit him with doesn't mean I'm going to hit him with it. But Ron uses that stick in his closing
statement. Exhibit one for the state is Jerry Jones because he is still here. He is still
alive. Danny Busby is as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window. Do you think having listened to Danny Busby on
the st, having seen his behavior here, he could keep his mouth shut, Danny Busby is offered up as the boogeyman?
And he was not. And he did not kill Lee Jones. We know who did. And it's Jerry Jones.
For Jerry and his family, their long battle to win his freedom comes down to one final argument.
The prosecutor has failed to prove that I murdered my wife, Lee Jones, for one reason. I did not do it.
As you know, I'm on trial here. You're going to go into that room soon and deliberate, and you're going to vote
either guilty or not guilty. Jerry Jones's name is on that ballot. Danny Busby's name is not there.
It's outrageous. Just it doesn't add up. I had no motive. I was not a violent person. I was not an explosive person.
I'm the person you see standing before you today. I think what the jury got to see was Jerry Jones acting in closing.
The crying. Yeah. rehearsed. Absolutely. Yeah. Genuine. No. For the third time, Jerry Jones fate is
in the hands of a jury. In a scant four and a half hours, the jury reaches a verdict.
All rise. Court is again in session. After a grueling 3-week trial, all parties are here. We have a verdict.
Please bring in the jury. Jurors reach a verdict in just 4 and 1/2 hours. I'm thinking they came back too soon.
They're going to walk it. It's a joint. If you please stand for the reading of the verdict. Oh, I'm expecting a
not-uilty verdict. We all took it very seriously. Just the weight of it. It was almost overcoming. Jurors remember a
tense courtroom as they filed in with their verdict. I looked at Jerry Jones and I looked at Ron Durst. I think both
of those guys have had a very personal role in this thing for the last 16 years. We the jury find the defendant
Jerry Bartlett Jones Jr. guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged
when you hear the word for the third time guilty. What was that moment like for you? You just shake your head in
disbelief and um what on earth are they thinking? When I hear the word guilty, I'm
thinking this is over for now. This is over. For prosecutor Ron Dur, winning a third conviction is a tremendous relief.
Was justice served here today, Ron? Absolutely. It was served in 2000. It was served in 1989.
It's the right verdict. All right. Yeah. 36 jurors from three trials have now heard the evidence in this case and not
one believes that you are innocent. Yeah, that's very disappointing. I don't have an explanation for it. Do you think
you should have done anything differently? I think I did everything humanly possible. I can't imagine
anything more I could have done. Tell me what the evidence is that convinces you
that I murdered my wife. We went through everything and it just didn't fit. A lot of us look through
every single piece of evidence, including the clothes, the knife, every single picture, making sure there wasn't
something that we were missing. That's why we took 4 and 1/2 hours, or else we could have came out of that jury room in
45 minutes. Jurors didn't buy Jerry's version of events. He had a lot of inconsistencies with his stories or his
explanation for the cuts on his hand. It looked like there was at least two contacts with a knife that we could
tell, which didn't match up with him telling us that he had a runin with an asalent and knocked that knife out of
his hand. They also didn't believe Jerry's story of only hearing a single scream as his wife was being stabbed 63
times in the next room. I've lived in a split level house myself. I could be downstairs and hear stuff going on
upstairs in the bathroom. I think there was a terrible struggle and I think you would have heard that all over that
house. Can you tell me where she's stabbed? All over. And after listening to the 911 tape several times on the
whole 911 tape, he never cried. No, never. I thought that was odd. And then he would put down the phone and run and
go do this. Sir. Sir. And put down the phone and run and go do that. Hello. When you're on the phone with 911, you
stay on the phone. He solemnly swear to tell the truth. And what about Danny Busby? The person Jerry Jones claims is
the real killer. There was no evidence that Danny Busby was in that house that night. There was no DNA evidence. There
was no blood evidence. Right. There was nothing that put Danny Busby in that house except Jerry Jones wanting him to
be in that house and he wasn't. Jurors found Danny Busby unlikable. Busby is a really nasty human being, but
believable. He was being very honest about the fact he had hit the woman. He had pushed her head into the steering
wheel. He had admitted to everything, but when it came down to did you kill Lee Jones? No, I did not kill Lee Jones.
It was Jerry Jones they didn't believe. Every move, every emotion he made seemed
planned out. I'm sure he's loving with his children and his grandchildren, but I think his wife was a whole another
matter. He looks nice on the outside and he speaks with a soft tone, but he gives me
the creeps. He could not hide himself from the jury. I did not murder my wife. They saw through to him to his essential
core. All rise. 5 days after being convicted, state versus Jerry Bartlett Jones. Jerry
Jones is back in court for sentencing. He is present. He is in custody. And for the third time, we stand up for him
because we believe in his innocence. Absolutely. His daughters ask for compassion. Everyone talks about how
much we love our dad, but they seem to forget how much we loved our mother. You can send him to prison, but prison
isn't going to make us suffer any more than we already have in these last 16 years. But for Pam O'Keefe, Danny
Busby's mother, Jerry Jones doesn't deserve any sympathy. The evil started the night Jerry Jones murdered his wife.
and the next day when he accused my son of doing it. No one knows how years of being vilified affected Danny Busby's
life. But his mother believes Jerry Jones needs to be punished for all the lives he's damaged. I hope a day doesn't
go by for the rest of your life that you don't think of your wife and how you took her life away from your
children and then you accused a 15-year-old innocent boy. You have ruined so many lives.
[Music] When it's Jerry's turn, he seems remorseful. Wish Danny Busby's name had
not come to mind. I have no reason to bring his name into these proceedings. Stop
damaging Danny Busby. Jerry is chastised one last time and let him heal and grow
the best he can before Judge James Allenorfer sentences him. I'm going to sentence you for the third time in your
life to 25 years in the penitentiary. got anything in your pockets at all? But just a few months later, back in prison,
Jerry Jones is defiant once again. Do you owe Danny Busby an apology? No, I do not owe Danny Busby an apology, and none
will be forthcoming. I think it's entirely likely that at this point he's managed to convince
himself that he did not commit this this murder. For Ron Dur, the battle against Jerry
Jones is finally over. He's moving on, but not to another case. I, Ronald Dersh, swear that I will support,
defend, and obey. Instead of prosecuting, he'll be enforcing the law. You sure you want to do this? Yes, sir.
Welcome aboard. As a deputy sheriff, but the case that has consumed his life for so many years will be much more
difficult to leave behind. I don't know that anything we can do in in a courtroom can really put the dead to
rest. Clearly, the family has been damaged, I think, beyond repair by what Jerry Jones
did. So, in terms of whether Lee Jones can rest, I hope she can rest. The rest of us, I don't think can
[Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to
graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. [Music] Jerry, did you take a filet knife and
inflict 63 stab wounds on your wife Lee and kill her? I did not. And you swear on everything you believe to be holy
that that's true. Everything I can imagine to be holy. I would swear to that effect. Yes.
[Music] That is the sound of Jerry Jones being interviewed by 48 Hours correspondent
Peter Vansand about the 1988 murder of his 41-year-old wife Lee. My name is Judy Ryback. I'm a longtime 48 Hours
producer and this is Killer Conversation, a podcast about what we at 48 Hours have learned about the criminal
mind after years of interviewing convicted killers. In this episode, Peter Vansent will take us behind the
scenes of two conversations he had with Jones, one of the killers who still haunts him to this day. We'll hear never
before heard, revealing exchanges between a highly skilled interviewer and a man convicted of killing the mother of
his three children. Peter, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking
the time. It's great, Trudy, to be working with you again. We've done this many times, so it's a pleasure. So,
Peter, about how many killers do you think you've interviewed for 48 hours? Kind of a strange question, isn't it? I
mean, I don't get asked that very often, but you know, I did some digging and uh
cuz over the decades, actually, and it's over 20 killers. They've strangled, shot, stabbed, blown a husband up in a
car bomb, cut throats, tortured, beaten, poisoned, dismembered, burned, and buried their victims. They're all scary
people. But the man we're going to talk about today, Jerry Jones, he's from my home state of Washington. And in fact,
this murder case was just about 8 miles from where I grew up. And he still has me looking both ways when I leave the
office. When I leave the broadcast center where we are recording this, I always check to my left and right
because it's the way he murdered his wife Lee that really haunts me to this day. That is incredible, Peter. You told
me that over dinner one night while we were on the road and I was just blown away. And that's because Jerry Jones is
a free man today. He was parrolled from prison in 2008 after serving only 16 years of a 25-year sentence. That's not
unusual in my home state of Washington. Um the system there, they've always taken a a European view of incarceration
and they see it as a time of rehabilitation that people can change. And Jerry, after 16 years in prison,
he's he got that second chance and he's now living peaceibly, as far as I know, in rural Washington state in Western
Washington. A as someone who believes in second chances, I have mixed feelings about that. But I really want people to
understand the brutality of this crime. The lead investigator who I interviewed,
who'd been in many, many homicide situations, had never seen anything like this.
Keep in mind, you know, with a typical murder on a 48 hour show, somebody shoots someone or if they're going to
use something like a knife, they get a butcher knife, they go for the heart, they go for the jugular for a quick
kill, right? It was just the opposite in the way that Lee Jones died. She wasn't
stabbed as much as, this is difficult to listen to, as she was sliced. This was a
fililet knife uh that had a curved end to it. It's a kind of knife that that you might have to cut your steak, right?
It was not a butcher knife. And she was cut at least 63 times. And the forensic expert said that there may may have been
40 different attempts to to cut her and that the this movement of the blade if he was going left to right or right to
left uh would sometimes give her two or three wounds. So that at least 40 different
thrusts at her with this knife, but they were not designed to kill her right away. She suffered minute after minute
after minute. This woman bled out. That's how she died. So when you first met Jones, he had been convicted. He had
served 10 years. The conviction was overturned and he had been out for 2 years. He was about to go to trial a
second time. Um, what what was that like interviewing a man who you knew had been convicted and
was most likely lying to you? Well, what was fascinating about Jerry's case is that it became a bit of a media
sensation when he got out. He has two daughters, um, beautiful, intelligent, articulate, and they had been
campaigning on television in not only in the state of Washington, but on a talk show called Liisa, where, uh, the three
of them were on the show and saying, "Our father is innocent. We're convinced of it." And they were so convincing that
I thought to myself, could they be right? Right? Could Could they be right? And keep in mind, as a journalist, you
don't begin an interview with a suspected killer and say, "Jerry, look, I know you did it. The evidence is
irrefutable. You murdered your wife. You tried to manipulate people. You are a killer." You don't do that, right? You
want to get into their mind. You want to This is a This is a a journey you're going to take with them. And so, the
initial parts of these interviews are always friendly. I want to hear their story and I do because I want to see can
he convince me. And so we met over and over again to talk about his relationship, how they met, their life
together, their ups and downs, the evidence, and he was open to any question that I wanted to ask. And
that's what a journalist dreams of. [Music] How did you first meet Lee, Peter? As I
recall it, uh I was stationed in Vietnam at Bentoule Air Base, which was down in
the Meong Delta. And I had been there for several months, it seems. And I I'm almost convinced it was on New Year's
Day of 1970 that I encountered this the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on
in my life. And for me, it was just love at first sight. When you speak of Lee, I
mean, your eyes really brighten. You have a smile on your face. Sounds like a sounds like a Disney
movie, but it's more like a Hitchcock film, right? Like a Hallmark film. Yeah. It's But again, for our audience
listening to this, that gentle manner he has now. He sounds like a romantic and u
and he's in Vietnam. He was serving our country. And when you see a picture of them back in the day, there she's
beautiful. He's a very handsome man, an authoritative figure to her and um probably seemed like a a match made in
heaven for the two of them. Jerry sounds like a light-hearted teenager in love when he talks about Lee. Do you think
that was real or smoke and mirrors? Uh a communications professor of mine in college once told me, he said, "Uh,
Peter, words don't have meaning, people have meaning." Just the thought of her still warms your
heart. Absolutely. She's still very much a part of my life. There's I don't think
there's a day that goes by that I don't think about her and and think about her warmly and affectionately. And you know,
I still wish that she was here to um be a part of my life and and and me to be a
part of hers and to enjoy our grandchildren and and and look at our children and how they've grown and
developed into such fine young people. So, it's been a big loss for us all. You miss her? Absolutely. I'd give anything
if I could have her back right now. My goodness. Um, yeah. So, he thinks about her warmly and affectionately. He
didn't even say he missed her until you asked him. He's speaking these words, but sitting across from him, he doesn't
seem, in my opinion, to mean them. He has this soft presentation. I do miss her, Peter. And he and and but it the
the the emotion is not there. So just before her death, how would you describe their relationship?
From outside appearances, here is a very successful pharmaceutical salesman. Lee
is the mother of three beautiful children, two girls and a boy. They live uh in a lovely suburban neighborhood.
But according to two of Lee's friends, she was talking about divorcing Jerry. Look, after her death, investigators
found legal separation papers in their bedroom. Right. Friends say that the marriage was near a breaking point. Lee
was miserable. She feared him. Uh Lee's friends, she had a couple who testified in the course of these trials, said that
uh he was a absolute uh control freak with her, that he dominated her in this relationship. Every day she had to lay
out his socks he was going to wear that day on the bed in a certain way. If she didn't, he got very angry with her.
These friends say according to Lee, he was becoming physically abusive, that he had struck her a number of times. they
would see her wearing sunglasses and ask her to take them off and they'd see a black eye or bruising and and ask about
it and he'd say, "Well, I didn't do what he wanted last night." So, um there's a
belief that there was escalating violence toward Lee uh prior to this terrible, terrible murder. And Jerry,
you know, there are people who are so skeptical of you. They don't think what you just said is genuine. What do you
say to those people? It's hard to answer somebody like that because they've come to that belief for
reasons that I can't understand or explain myself. To the best of my knowledge, everyone who actually knows
me, Jerry Jones, as a person knows that I'm absolutely incapable of murdering anyone and certainly not Lee.
[Music] This is what Jerry Jones says happened on the night of December 3rd, 1988. He
and his wife, Lee, were home with their 4-year-old son, Thomas, watching television. Their oldest daughter, Kim,
had moved out, and their middle child, Beth, was at a party. Jerry says Lee put Thomas to sleep in his basement bedroom
and then went upstairs to a hallway bathroom to take a bath. Jerry says he then went across the hall to their
primary bathroom to take a shower. He says the water was running when he heard Lee scream.
I heard this horrible scream and I just I'd never heard anything like that before in my entire life. I was
just I was petrified just just from the scream. One loud piercing scream. One loud piercing scream
that and that's what I heard. And and I froze for a second or two or three. And the floor plan of the house where your
shower was running. Mhm. And where her bath was running, there's a common wall there. Yes. She was in the fight of her
life. Yes. She's a strong woman. and the amount of the just the volume of that battle, the thumping around that was
going on in there. Didn't you hear any of that, Peter? I did not. No, had I heard it, I certainly would have run to
her aid sooner than that. Uh, and you understand how for some people that's hard to believe. Well, you know, I I
don't know if it's pos I'm I'm going to say this. It might be possible to do a reenactment.
You and your producer Anthony Batson actually did do an experiment in that house. Tell us about that. I was in one
bathroom and Anthony Batson was in the other. Right. We could talk to each other as I'm talking to you right now
and hear every word. I took out like a dime and I dropped it on the bathtubing. You could hear it as if we're both in
the same room. It is impossible for this battle to have gone on. Impossible. and
not hear it. Um, I'm telling you the amount of noise that you could hear through that common wall. It's almost
like as we are speaking right now and his story is just ridiculous. But Jones kept insisting to you that he
only heard one story and then ran toward the bathroom and on the way he bumped into a man with a knife. This is
happening so quickly, so fast. you start perceiving that something is coming out.
And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you you can see more and more. And it's
a knife that my my vision, my focus, my attention was just riveted. It's a knife. And I'm continuing forward. And
this person, it's just a figure is con moving. and we just more or less meet in the doorway and collide right there in
the doorway to the bathroom. I'm not thinking that I need to deflect that knife. That never entered my mind. It's
just a the fact that it happened was just a reflex action. You see a knife and my hand went in the direction of
that knife and dislodged it from his hand and in the process I suffered some cuts.
Let's talk about those cuts on Jerry's hand. Um, he says he was defending himself, but the prosecutor has a a
different story, right? Absolutely. The prosecution and their forensic expert says the wounds that that jury has are
consistent with cuts. While you're you're you're stabbing or cutting someone with a knife, you've gotten that
knife bloody from from your victim. And blood is a very slippery substance. And this is something that that has occurred
in a number of cases that I have covered where someone has used a knife, particularly in murders of rage where
they stab multiple times, is that the hand will slide down the handle onto the blade. And so if you're holding it like,
you know, try to imagine now you're holding a a knife handle with the blade below your fist and it slides down.
where you get the cut is on the inside of the upper parts of your fingers. That's where his cuts were, right? So,
he's gets cut. He's bumps into this guy. This is what Jones says happened next. In the process of the collision, I was
forced back and I bumped my head against the wall and fell to the floor. I saw stars. I I'm convinced that I did
not lose consciousness, but I saw stars and I was dazed. And uh I think I was not down for more than a second or two.
And when I got up, there was nobody in the hallway any longer. He saw stars. Was there any evidence that he had been
knocked out? No. And if he saw stars, that was only because he stepped outside and looked up into the night sky. Uh,
that again is another ridiculous story. There's no evidence of any concussion. There was no bump on his head, no
bruise, nothing whatsoever to support this. This is someone who is um making a story up. I immediately went into the
bathroom and I encountered uh the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life. I I
I could see blood on her body and she is struggling. She's trying to push with her feet back into
the corner of the bathtub. She's throwing her hands about in front of her as if fighting off an attacker.
Uh the closer I got to her, I I I reached the side of the tub and I reached in almost immediately and I
said, "My godly, what happened?" And in the process of doing that, um, I was reaching in to try to lift her to me,
and my feet literally just flew out from under me. Did she speak to you? She was trying to
speak. I'm convinced of that. Her her jaw would fall open as as if she was trying to speak and then it would snap
shut just repeatedly like that. But I can recall this this chattering sound of her
teeth. It's most under the circumstances. I mean, it's it's just like it's a crescendo
of noise and yet it's just the chattering of teeth. That chattering sound he makes with his
teeth made me think of Hannibal Lectar in Silence of the Lambs. Do you recall what you were thinking in that moment?
takes a lot to shock me and freak me out. I was completely freaked out. It sent a chill down my spine and it takes
a lot to do that. Carrie, help me out here because this this is where a lot of people it doesn't make sense. You're a
bright, articulate man. You've had military training. Why haven't you gone to that phone and dialed 911?
I don't have a good answer for you, Peter. Had I to do it over again and had I been completely in control of my
faculties, that certainly is what I would have done first and foremost. Did you to just lose it? Yes.
Yes. That's that's what happened. That's the truth. That's the way it happened. had
you come to my door that day and had you said, "Jerry, there's going to be an emergency in the neighborhood tonight
and we need somebody who can do the right thing under pressure." I would have said, "Peter, I'm your man. I
can do it." when it happened in my old home and when my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do
it. I couldn't help her. Watching this clip, I literally leaned into the monitor to see if there were
any tears coming out of his eyes. There was not a single tear. He's crying. It's
so dramatic. Not a single tear. Completely manipulative, a completely disingenuous.
Um, disgusting. Jerry Jones says that instead of calling 911, he decided to take matters into his
own hands and tried to wrestle his bloody wife out of the bathtub. Then things got even more complicated, he
says, when their four-year-old son Thomas woke up, climbed the stairs, and walked in on what must have been a
terrifying scene. And Thomas comes into the room. And Thomas, you've got to go back to bed.
Your mom's hurt. I'm trying to help her. I've got to call 911. Please go back to
bed. and he very dutifully turns and and leaves. What happens then? Well, I resume my efforts to get Lee out of the
tub. And again, every time I I reach in and grasp her, she slips out of my hands. And and after two or three
additional uh attempts in this direction, I I'm just so frustrated. I I I don't give up, but I I hear Thomas
calling for me downstairs. He's scared. He knows something has happened. He's apprehensive.
I run down to him. Jerry says he decided to put on his boots and take Thomas to a neighbor's
house. The thought that enters my mind and controls what I do next is I've got to
get Thomas to a safe place. At this point, is Lee still alive? At this point, I think she is
completely non-animated, probably alive, but her last breath is in her at this point in time.
Um, this is several minutes later, 3 5 minutes, and life is I mean, when I first
encountered her, she's still struggling. And this quickly with within 3 to 5 minutes, she's at the point where if
she's breathing at all, it's very shallow, very sporadic. Um, not much life left.
That just takes my breath away every time I hear it. He is calmly sitting there telling you that with precious
minutes ticking by, he has decided to leave his dying wife and take his son next door. Why didn't he just call the
neighbor and ask him to come get Thomas and then call 911? You know, the the thought is is that that would have made
covering up this murder much harder. If the if the neighbor had come over to get
Thomas, right, he might have insisted on entering the house. He might have and calling 911 from there, maybe he would
have spoken to Lee. Maybe she would have cried out if she realized another man was in the house and and and maybe he
would have attempted to try to help save her. It would just mess up what he had set in motion and likely lead to his
arrest. Right. Right. This next clip really stood out to me. You pushed him hard and he just smiled
and once again calmly said some of the most shocking things I have ever heard. You know, there are some who believe you
took your son over to your neighbor so you could go back and finish off late. Well,
that has never been expressed in those exact words. I I would say this that while I've in the Air Force I was never
really trained to kill anybody, I I have had some training in self-defense techniques and and there was a brief
period when I went to a school in Florida prior to going to Vietnam where they they taught us some rudimentary
techniques for attacking another person. some basic training w with a knife. Some
some basic training. Um if if I were going to kill Lee or you or anyone else and I I had an opportunity
to pick my time and my place, I would just cut your throat. I I know that there is a jugular vein there. I know
approximately where it's located. And if and that would be very silent. There wouldn't be a scream.
Uh if if you did get that jugular vein, the the fight would be out of the individual within seconds.
And the allegation is this was a crime of passion, of hatred, and that if you did it that these wolves were done in
such anger to punish, to inflict a cruel death. Mhm. That there was no anger and there was
there was none of that. At best, your behavior at this point has been bizarre. You agree with that? I would agree with
that. Yes. And your explanation for this bizarre behavior is what? I was in shock. I was scared.
I'd never encountered anything like that before in my entire life. I wish I had done
the right thing. I wish I'd done the things that would have been in Lee's best interest.
I I look back I had I called immediately it could have made a difference. Others though who medical experts who
have examined the autopsy report have told me that it probably wouldn't have made a
difference. Those of us who've been through military style first aid training and I've done
that twice now. pack, wrap, elevate. You pack these wounds quickly in that room with with toilet paper with if there's
Kleenex in there, you put them inside all the wounds. It stops the bleeding. You use your clothing, use towels to
wrap if he was and and she had none of that on her. You know, when the authorities arrived, she didn't have um
evidence that he was stop he was trying to stop the bleeding. Oh, that's so interesting. And that's the part of his
story that just drives me crazy is that there should have been evidence of him doing everything he could to stop this
bleeding and there was none. And the and the truth is is that through their investigation, authorities believe that
he took at least 6 minutes from the time he discovered put quotes around that her
body before he called 911. 6 minutes passed. I did not realize that. That is truly stunning. And speaking of stunning
evidence, let's get to that 911 call. 911, what do you have? Hurry. Uh, my wife and I Let me give you a dispatch,
sir. Hurry, please. A dispatch. Yes, my wife. What's the address? 9 um 615. Um uh
190 160 9th place. Hurry, please. Okay. What? 615 169th place. Say again. No, you repeat it to me, sir. 6151
169th. Hurry. He's given this operator in the course of this two different addresses. They can't find the house.
Um, this is I've never heard of this. You know, I've covered Judy, you too. We've covered dozens and dozens of
murder cases. How many 911 calls I've heard, I've never heard of somebody not knowing where they're where they live
and making this kind of mistake. That just feels um like a manipulation. The dispatchers were confused because
they couldn't find Jerry in the phone book. The ambulance was having trouble finding his house and he kept walking
away from the phone. And in that time, the dispatchers realized that he had given them the wrong address.
All right, sir. You're going to have down the road. You're going to have to help me because we have a conflict with
your address. Please give me your address again. What is your address? Let me go look. I'll write down. He's going
to go look. This is the most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had. The most uncooperative trauma victim
I've ever had. Jerry walked away from the phone a fourth time for about 20 seconds and then returned with a new
address. Okay, Peter. All I can say is what the fudge. I don't buy it. The prosecutor said um
he believed that that Jerry was stalling to make sure that Lee was dead. Le let's
listen to you uh ask him about that. The prosecution alleges that this was part of your
diabolical plot that you were letting Lee bleed to death. You didn't want the aid car to get there right away. And if
that were the case, I would have just waited and waited. And I might still be waiting. I may never have called 911 and
I would have just I would have made up a story. Well, I didn't think about calling 911 or I I don't know what I
would have done. I'm not good at making up these stories, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever the case might be.
Well, he's right about one thing. He is not good at making up stories. He could have transported her body
somewhere, but the fact that Thomas walked in on the scene screwed up. If that was his plan, screwed everything
up. He then had to call 911 because or eliminate his own son. And he'd made a decision obviously not to do that. And
so this to me is a meticulous plan by someone who has this controlling personality that goes ary and then he
tried to tried to compensate with with delaying tactics and everything else. But Thomas walking in on that scene I
believe just messed everything up. So a little over 14 minutes have elapsed from
the time Jerry dialed 911 to the moment help arrived. Lee was pronounced dead on
the scene with no CPR even attempted and Jerry was arrested that very night. In 1989, Jerry Jones faced a jury of his
peers. They found him guilty of first-degree murder and he was sentenced to 25 years in prison. In 1998, just
over 10 years after Lee was murdered, a judge set aside Jerry's conviction, ruling that in the first trial, Jerry's
lawyer should have been able to present evidence about a possible alternate suspect,
a 15-year-old boy who lived in the neighborhood named Daniel Busby. [Music] Who is Daniel Busby?
My knowledge of him on a firsthand basis is of a obnoxious teenage boy who lived in our
neighborhood. I think I first heard his name mentioned probably in the spring of
1988. As the year progressed, I heard the name mentioned more and more frequently,
usually in a negative uh connotation. Um Lee particularly uh didn't like him. And saying that of
of Lee is saying a lot because I don't think I would have to really really search my memory to give you the name of
anyone else that Lee did not like. So, a 15-year-old snuck into his house and sliced up his wife. What evidence is
there of that? There's no evidence whatsoever of that. There's no evidence of an intruder. There is no fingerprints
in that bathroom. There is no DNA. Uh there are no eyewitnesses. Um it's simply he would have had to have
levitated into that house and committed this murder. And think about this. A 15-year-old comes in to do this
murder, but he he would have been aware of Jerry in the other sha in in the other because of that common wall that
you can hear anything that Jerry was in the house in the other room and he's committing this vicious horrible
physical battle. It's it's just simply ridiculous. And this poor kid um Busby uh endured these accusations over the
years. He gets reported over and over in the papers. Just destroyed his life. No
evidence whatsoever. And I I find that story uh preposterous. Yes, preposterous is a good word. Busby also had an alibi.
His mother said he was at home with her that night. So, what evidence was there to justify a second trial?
Well, uh there are letters. First off, it seems that Busby was obsessed with Jerry and Lee's youngest daughter, Beth.
And it seems he may have also been obsessed with Lee. And he would be a bit of a pest around the house. He liked to
drop by. And and I know that Lee had expressed to a friend that that that he kind of creeped her out a bit the way he
would stare at her in a in sort of a longing way. And then there's this crazy story about
the fact that the four-year-old Thomas, who was in bed downstairs from where uh the murder was, that he heard somebody
growl. And uh and that woke him up. And apparently the only person who ever growled at four-year-old Thomas was this
Busby character. So, it's the letters, the obsession with Lee and Beth, and this one growl that Thomas heard. That's
the evidence that he has. So, as we know, Jerry was found guilty a second time. His conviction was
reinstated and his sentence remained the same. So, they didn't re-sentence him. And just when you thought this case was
over, you get a call that a judge decided jury still hadn't gotten a fair trial. So, he was getting a third. And
he was once again released and wanted to talk to you. And this third trial, what are you going
to be able to bring in to this courtroom that you haven't been able to do in the
past? Well, we'll be allowed to uh bring in the fact that Danny Busby has a 16year history of violence against
women, both psychological and physical attacks on every woman he's ever had a relationship with. Uh I think we're
going to be allowed to paint him as the monster that he is. And I believe the evidence will convince the jury that he
indeed is the person responsible for Lee's death. Why is Danny Busby's conduct after Lee's murder relevant to
the murder itself? Because it it's a pattern of behavior. So Jerry acting as his own attorney
actually called Daniel Busby to the witness stand and questioned him about all that same stuff that they went over
in the second trial, the letters to Lee, the the growl, whatever, but also about
his record with women, what he did to women as an adult. Well, Busby was not a cooperating witness. He was annoyed. Uh
this is the man who who had ruined his life in many ways by getting his name into the public for a crime that
authorities believed he did not commit or have anything to do with it. The police and the prosecutor says
there's no evidence against Danny Busby. The jury set aside Danny Busby in their
deliberations immediately saying there's no evidence he did the crime. If he didn't do it and you didn't do it, who
had the motive, the reason to murder Lee? Well, it's no third mysterious person. Either I did it or Danny Busby
did it. Obviously, 36 jurors have come to the conclusion for reasons I can't explain that I did it. But I can look
you or anyone else in the eye and tell you I did not murder my wife. And all I can ask you or these jurors, they they
saw the evidence in the courtroom, but I don't know, look at it in a little more
depth. What on earth is required to prove reasonable doubt? You know what's interesting? The judge
even scolded him after he was convicted and sentenced for dragging Daniel Busby repeatedly through the mud for nearly 17
years. And the jury felt he owed Daniel Busby an apology. Do you owe Danny Busby an apology? No.
Danny Busby cannot look me in the eye and ask me for an apology. He knows what he did. He
knows who he is. He knows that he murdered Lee Jones following the second trial. He became
emboldened and he has told several people, "I did it and I'll do it again." He has told several people, you know,
they have the wrong guy in prison because I did it. He thinks and I believe he knows in his
mind that he has gotten away with murder and that he can say whatever he wants to
say and and he has told people that he murdered my wife. Okay, so for the record that is
absolutely untrue. Daniel Busby testified under oath that he never told anyone that he killed Lee and no one has
ever testified that he did tell them he killed Lee. when you listen to him, um, he has a gentle sound. When you look at
him, when you're talking to him, he has a a gentle face. But behind that, to me,
it's a mask. Behind that is is a is a coldhearted uh killer and and one who deserved this
uh this verdict of guilt. I think justice was served. It took three bites of the apple to have it happen, but he
is a man who murdered his wife. I have no doubt of that. No doubt. So, I love that you asked
Jerry at the end of the interview if he was going to try for a fourth trial, and
his answer just made me laugh out loud. I'm not interested in a fourth trial. I'll do the ballots of the three years I
have on my sentence. When I'm released, I will move to Southeast Asia. I will work with orphans.
I will do what I can to keep young ladies out of the sex trade. And I will work with those who are disabled as a
result of the Vietnam War. Oh my god, I can't take it. I will work with orphans, keep ladies out of sex
trade, save the whales, feed the hungry. Holy cow. Yeah. and he lives off of a country road near u Arlington,
Washington today in a in a small house. He never went to Southeast Asia. He never helped ladies out of the sex
trade. He didn't do any of those things. Well, Peter, this case is so fascinating
from start to finish, and your interviews are just a masterclass in how to question a killer. I am so grateful
that you took the time to join us on this podcast. Well, this was your idea, this wonderful podcast, and I think it's
fascinating to try to get into the minds of these killers, which is a very frightening place to be.
[Music] On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Aaron Morardi will join me to discuss Brian Stewart, also known as
Rick Valentini, my first killer. He's a guy who changed his name illegally, lied
about who he was, and murdered his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jaime Ley. You're not really Brian Stewart at all,
are you? To me, I am, but not legally, are you? Well, legally, I'm not anything. That's the problem. You're
Rick Valentini. [Music] 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, factchecking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
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Jerry Jones was convicted three times for the murder of his wife, Lee, who was stabbed more than 60 times. Watch "Defending Your Life" and then catch up with "48 Hours" correspondent Peter Van Sant, who sat across from Jones as he professed his innocence. Then, join Van Sant on "Killer Conversation" for more on why the jurors convicted Jones, and other revealing exchanges between a highly skilled interviewer and a man convicted of killing the mother of his three children. The conversations still haunt Van Sant to this day.

What’s it like to sit across from a killer and ask the questions no one else can? "48 Hours" producer Judy Rybak sits down with correspondents Erin Moriarty and Peter Van Sant for revealing conversations about how the criminal mind works.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Jerry Jones faces three trials for murdering his wife Lee, with emotional testimonies and courtroom drama revealing the complexities of the case.

Key points

The Daughters' Mission. Kim and Beth Jones are determined to prove their father's innocence after 17 years.
The Fight for Justice. Prosecutor Ron Dur faces the pressure of a retrial as Jerry Jones defends himself.
The Disturbed Neighbor. Jerry Jones accuses Danny Busby, a troubled teen, of being the real killer.
Testimony of Former Girlfriends. Former girlfriends testify against Danny Busby, revealing a history of violence.
The Confrontation. Jerry Jones takes the stand, facing accusations and the prosecutor's scrutiny.
The Verdict. After a tense trial, the jury finds Jerry Jones guilty of murder.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I'd give anything if I could have her back right now.

Expressing deep regret and longing.

6:40WatchJun 11, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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