Could Joining a Police Explorer Program Put Your Child in Danger? | Forensic Files

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. >> And I'm Brit. >> And the story I have for you today isn't
just one story, but it started that way for me with Sandra Burmore, which we covered in our last episode. I was
shocked and outraged at how she was taken advantage of in the Police Explorer program because like my god,
surely parents have to believe that sending their kids to learn from the police has to be the safest place for
them. What a betrayal. But I began to wonder, was this the exception or was this just one example of a system with
deep [music] rooted problems that lets abuse thrive? And just as I was asking [music] this very question, literally
within like 2 weeks of Sandra's story breaking, I saw a local news article. It said, "IMPD officer tied to teens
suicide ordered to write weekly journal in rare sentence. a teen who was part of
the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department's Explorer program. And as I dug into her story, I realized that we
were just scratching the surface of a much, much bigger problem. The more I looked, the more I found. And me and our
reporter Nina have spent months uncovering a systemic issue with the Explorer [music] program that is
required listening for everyone. Crime junkie or not, this is an episode that [music] must be shared because you won't
believe what has been happening right under our noses for decades. For Mike Gatliff, time [music] stopped
on Monday, November 2nd, 2015, right around 4:41 p.m. And now his life is split into before and after. Before, he
was living out the most average day. Went to work at the Indianapolis Police Pawn unit. Came home to the house that
he shared with his wife Janice, their 18-year-old daughter, Heidi, and their 21-year-old son. He'd just gotten out of
his car and was bringing up some leaf bags from the yard when this familiar face came up to him. 29-year-old IMPD
officer Francisco, known to him and most as Paco. Now, even though Mike's a civilian employee for IMPD, the only
reason he really knew Francisco was because of Heidi. She had been a part of the department's explorer program for
nearly 2 years, and he knew that she had done some ride alongs with Francisco over the past few months. And Francisco
had never just shown up at their house before, unannounced. and not in uniform. But he says that he's there that day to
talk to Heidi about a case. >> She's an explorer. What kind of case would you need to talk to? Like explorer
part. They're not working cases. They're not officers. >> Yeah, you're right. They're not. But
Mike isn't even concerned. Along with working for IMPD, he's also a fire department chaplain. So like their whole
family trusts first responders. And IMPD was Heidi's life basically. [music] I mean, everything she's done has been
working up to getting on the force. Maybe she's getting like a little inside peak. Like any crime junkie would love.
>> Oh, for sure. It would be great. Whatever. >> So, he tells Francisco that, you know,
he just got home, but Heidi's car is in the driveway, so she's got to be inside.
So, like, come on in. He invites Francisco in through the garage, but Francisco stays at the entrance while
Mike goes inside to [music] get Heidi. Now, inside, her bedroom door is closed. Mike knocks and then he walks in when
she doesn't answer. And this is the moment that time [music] stops because once he opened that door, he would
always be living in the after. [music] After he found Heidi laying in bed where he kissed her goodbye that morning.
Before she was warm and alive, his beautiful daughter was so much potential. And after she is still and
pale with a gun near her head and her hand close to it. Now, Mike [music] rushes to Heidi and calls out for
Francisco, realizing that he hadn't followed him in. And Francisco comes running. But even though he's the
trained officer, it's Mike who slips into first responder mode. He's the one that calls 911 at 4:41 p.m., and he's
the one who gives dispatchers what they need, while Francisco is just like falling apart. Medics and IMPD officers
arrive within minutes, and Heidi is pronounced dead there at the scene. And the rest of the night is just a blur of
chaos. Mike calls Janice at work, bringing her into the after, and she remembers the moment that she collapsed
and had to be driven home. There, friends and family gather while police seal off the house. Officers line the
street in a show of respect for Heidi as one of their own, and everyone is left reeling, [music]
trying to make sense of something that makes no sense. [music] I mean, the day before everything seemed pretty normal.
The family went to church like always. Later, Heidi skipped baking cookies with her mom. She said she had plans with a
friend. And then when she came home, she seemed a little upset, but nothing major. She went back out, came home
again sometime later. Mike didn't see her get back, which was like a little odd,
>> but there was nothing that like screamed crisis. >> Not even close. Mike is trained to
recognize the warning signs of suicide, and he hadn't noticed any. Plus, like Heidi is known for her upbeat
personality. She is bright and bubbly and driven. She loved helping people. I mean, that's what drew her to law
enforcement. In middle school, she actually dreamed of the FBI, but over time, she set her sights on IMPD, the
department that she got to know through the Explorers. Mike was actually the one
who'd first heard about the program and thought it would be a good fit for her. [music] And he was right. Heidi had
ADHD. She struggled with a traditional classroom, but exploring let her learn by doing. She worked security at the
Indianapolis 500. She helped on mall patrols. I mean, her confidence was growing with every single shift. And her
favorite part were the ride alongs. Sitting beside an officer, following calls, watching arrests unfold. It felt
like the real thing. And it really cemented her desire to become a cop. And just days before her death, she had been
promoted to post commander [music] and captain, something that she was thrilled about. So for Heidi's parents and her
brother, like this isn't just grief. It is whiplash. But even in that grief and their darkest moments, her family has
never disputed that Heidi's gunshot wound was self-inflicted. I mean, she even left a note on Mike's computer,
which they found later. But there still are so many questions about what led up to her death and why.
>> And the note didn't give any explanation. >> Not one that they fully understood or
not one that like filled in all the gaps of how things ended up the way they did.
Like in the note, she apologized to her parents. She said it wasn't their fault,
but that she'd made some mistakes. She felt like she was hurting people's careers. It was vague. It was a little
confusing for them. And there was nothing in recent memory that they could call back to that made this make sense.
And listen, credit where credit is due for IMPD because they are going to get their fair share of heat in this
episode, too. They did the thing that you're supposed to do. every death should be treated as suspicious [music]
until you definitely rule that it's not. And even though everyone was in agreement that this was a suicide, there
was still a mystery surrounding it. And it quickly becomes obvious that what led
up to it might involve [music] one of their own. Now, Brad, I know you have a teenager.
>> Mhm. >> What is the one thing that can give you insight into their life? The portal into
their internal world. >> Their phone. >> Correct. Hidden in Heidi's calls and texts might be all the answers that her
family is looking for. And that phone still playing music was near her head when her dad found her. So, police
collected it and asked [music] her parents for the passcode. But Mike and Janice are kind of taken back. Like,
passcode? Heidi's not supposed to have a passcode. They have a house rule against
it. But detectives tell them the phone's locked. And listen, it's not like Heidi
couldn't have broken that rule if there were things that she didn't want her parents to see or know after she was
gone. So, they like toss out some guesses. Police try them, but nothing works. And eventually, the phone
disables completely. And there's just something that feels wrong about this. You see, after Mike found his daughter,
[music] Francisco had asked Mike to use Heidi's phone so that he could call the adviser
who ran her Explorer post. Call them for what? And also use your own phone. >> Mike didn't know why he was asking. I
mean, he had in that moment zero brain space to even consider the weirdness of the request. Yeah. I mean, he just found
his daughter, but Francisco was able to place that call presumably without having a passcode to open the phone,
which means >> Francisco locked the phone. >> Yeah. And there is only one reason that
you would need to do that and that is if you don't want anyone to see what's on it.
Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers [music] and on my
podcast, The Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing [music] cards distributed in
prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and
the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen [music] to the deck now
wherever you get your podcasts. Everything around Francisco is starting to stink. He came to talk to Heidi about
a case, which makes no sense now that the blinders are off. He froze and freaked out in a moment of crisis and
had her dad be the one to call 911. And then he used her phone to make a call after they found her. And now no one can
get into the phone. Like come on. >> So for all those reasons, detectives have a conversation with Francisco
pretty quickly, like the next day, Tuesday, November 3rd. And he tells them that he met Heidi when she was on a ride
along with an [music] ambulance crew. That was back in January, just after her 18th birthday. And Janice told us it was
actually maybe even earlier at a charity boxing event when Heidi was still 17. But either way, they started talking and
Francisco encouraged her to join him on patrol. He worked a high crime area known as the swamp where something was
always happening and Heidi jumped at the chance. >> So this was after she joined the
explorers, >> right? She had actually already been in the program for over a year by that
point. And Francisco had no official explorer role, but it like kept them in each other's orbit basically. So he says
they grew close about 15 ride alongs, working out together a couple times a week and talking almost daily through
text and Snapchat. That doesn't sound normal, right? >> It shouldn't be. >> Okay.
>> I mean, like many explorer posts across the country, IMPD's program operates under Learning for Life, which is an
affiliate of Scouting America. >> Okay? And that organization forbids close social relationships between
leaders and participants no matter their age. But Francisco doesn't work with the
post. So that rule technically wouldn't apply to him. And at the time IMPD didn't have a policy barring officers
from getting involved with explorers. Like that was only added this year, 2025. Now, technically, since Heidi was 18, if
something was going on between [music] them, it wouldn't have been illegal, >> but
>> but ethically, yeah, it's a different story. Ethically, he is a unformed officer in a position of authority
hanging out with a teenager who clearly looked up to him. So, even if you take Francisco at his word, which is that
nothing sexual happened, >> it still feels wrong to me. >> But anyways, Francisco tells police that
Heidi seemed fine Sunday night. They'd even made plans to work out that week. But by Monday afternoon, something had
changed. He said that she called him out of the blue at around 1:00, told him she
couldn't talk to him anymore, but that she loved him and it wasn't his fault. She thanked him for everything and then
hung up, which rattled him, and he tried calling back and then finally drove to her house. And ultimately, he admits
that he lied to Mike. He [music] didn't want to alarm him if this turned out to be nothing. So, he made up the whole
thing about having to talk to her about a case. Yeah. So then he hangs back and lets her dad find her.
>> Zero spying. >> Yeah. >> And lots of ick feelings about this for me. >> But still nothing illegal that we know
of where he crossed a hard line in the sand. Was even touching her phone. >> I mean, this dude's been a cop for 10
years. He knows not to touch evidence in an active death investigation. And if he
really needed to contact the explorer advisor, he could have asked responding officers to reach out
>> or use his own phone >> or like you said before, use his own phone. Yeah. Like it does not sit right.
So this is when the case is bumped to IMPD's special investigations unit. And while they get their ducks in a row, a
digital forensic expert is trying to get into Heidi's phone. And Mike and Janice
are just trying to survive each day. And they are left in kind of an unclear position. Like they know that there is
an ongoing investigation, something involving Francisco and Heidi's phone, but they're not getting any real
details, and they don't fully understand why this is happening for a clear-cut suicide. So, one of the people that they
lean on during this time is 32-year-old Daniel Bowman. He was Heidi's explorer adviser, her
mentor, the cop running the meetings and taking her ambition seriously. And now that Heidi's gone, he really steps up
for the Gatliff's personally. The explorers help with funeral arrangements. Daniel carries Heidi's
earn and gives a speech. And he doesn't just forget about the family once those big moments are over. He keeps checking
in. He keeps sharing stories about Heidi. And for Janice especially, he becomes a lifeline because Mike and
their son grieve in a different way. Like they're very private. They're very quiet. But Janice needs to talk about
her daughter. And Daniel is always available to listen. By the end of 2015, I mean, he is practically family. He
seems like a steady source of support, someone who cared about Heidi's future and shares their pain and their
questions. But he also said that he feels guilty because of how everything went down. According to Daniel, sometime
the morning of November 2nd or like in the early afternoon, Heidi sent him a Snapchat saying that he was a great guy
and she loved him, which wasn't like her. And then she sent another and he replied asking what was going on, but
she never answered. Court records show that he sent her 16 messages over the next few hours and none of them were
even read. And then later that day, his phone rang and it was Heidi's number calling, but the voice on the line was a
man yelling that she was dead. Now, Daniel says he didn't recognize the voice as Francisco's. And he didn't like
know him super well. Like Daniel might have seen him around, but they'd never spoken. He didn't really even know his
name. He said that he didn't even connect the voice to him until they met at the Gatliff's that evening.
>> So, if they didn't even know each other, then why did Francisco even reach out to
him? >> Daniel says he doesn't know. But Francisco was obviously aware of him because that night he pulled Daniel
aside and asked if they could talk privately in Daniel's car, even asked him to turn off his police radio. Daniel
says Francisco told him that Heidi really cared about him, like him being Daniel, and then immediately asked she
ever talked about Francisco or said anything about their relationship. And Daniel's like, "No, like I don't
remember her mentioning anything." Now, eventually Francisco got out of the car.
Daniel says that he watched him go into the Gatliff's house, which struck him as
odd because it was still an active crime scene. And then when he came out, he stood in the driveway and in full view
of officers and mourners urinated in the yard. >> I'm sorry, what? I know. It's like it's
it's just weird behavior. >> Yeah. >> Now, Daniel says that he feels awful because he didn't realize how much Heidi
was struggling. And he also tells Janice that he thinks Heidi and Francisco were
involved in some way. Now, when we recently spoke to Daniel, he said that he didn't realize what was happening at
the time. That all the ride alongs and contact Heidi had with Francisco went beyond what he had believed he approved.
Like, he'd been running the post for a couple of years and says that he only ever authorized a handful of ride
alongs, including one for Heidi. And the way that he tells it, they were tightly
controlled for 18 and up explorers only, paired with another student and assigned
to a short list of approved officers. But there was an earlier incident that stuck out. Daniel says that sometime
around the spring of 2015, another explorer mentioned that Heidi went on a ride along that he hadn't approved out
of uniform and outside of the normal process. As post adviser, Daniel should have filed a report, but he says that it
didn't seem like a concern or a complaint, more like a misunderstanding. So, instead of documenting it, he talked
to his supervisors, gave the group a refresher on the policy, and pulled the 18 and overs aside to remind them. He
wanted all ridealongs to have his approval, and anyone using a police radio had to be logged with dispatch so
that the department could know who was where. But he also told us that it felt complicated to him, like Heidi was
technically an adult and he didn't think that he could dictate what she did on her own. So maybe out of all this guilt
he's feeling or his own grief, whatever, he says that he's trying to be there for
her family and for [music] the explorers. And on November 3rd, again, this is the day after Heidi's death,
Daniel brought a counselor in for an emergency explorers meeting. Now, he told us the department didn't help with
this. like there wasn't protocol for handling something like traumatic like this, but there was a surprise guest
that showed up, Francisco, and it didn't seem like he was there for the counseling. Daniel says that he was like
asking around trying to find out more about what had happened. And while the explorers were gathered with Daniel,
there was this other group that was meeting at the home of one of Heidi's close friends named Corbin Meyers. He
invited their circle over so that they could try to process what happened. And while they were all together, one of the
girls got an Instagram message [music] from Francisco who wanted her to call him. And that's when Corbin's radar
started like going off. He knew that there had been some shady stuff happening over the past few months.
[music] So Corbin, being in the beautiful one party state of Indiana, decided to record their conversation.
And on the call, Francisco repeated much of what he told detectives. But he also
talked about his last call with Heidi. He said that she told him her life was a mess and that she'd been hurting people
and lying to them. And while he downplayed their relationship to police with her friends, he leaned into it
fishing trying to find out what they knew. Corbin actually gave those recordings to police and he also shared
them with us. I don't know how much of of everything you knew about her. Did you know
everything? >> For the most part, yeah. >> Okay. Well, what I didn't know about 3 weeks ago since we've been hanging out
and stuff and she told we never establish, she never said anything about liking me. She never
said anything about that. We're just hanging out. She told me that she was seeing two other guys besides me, like
just hanging out with two other guys. >> What was your reaction to that? >> Um, I was pretty upset in the beginning and
I told her that we should not probably see each other and she got really upset. >> Yeah.
>> And then she told me that she spoke to another guy which Do you know the two names? I don't know if I do you know
them. >> We know who they are. Yeah. >> Francisco seemed especially fixated on one of those men.
>> She told me about him and she said that that it uh that she felt she was hurting
him. And I'm not really sure what the relationship was prior to this, but she said she was hurting him.
>> He said he'd already compared notes with this other guy. according to what she
told me is that she was telling him that they she loves him. But unfortunately, she never said those things to me except
for the day that she called me. I wish you guys could tell me more. That's what I was hoping that maybe you guys had
some answers to help me. >> Hang on. So, Francisco admitted there was something going on between them.
Well, after they hung up, he called back. >> Like, what does she say about me? like
she she considered what we had in relationship. I heard you guys say that, but I want to know why she thought that.
>> It wasn't something like a romantic relationship. We never It wasn't like that. We just hung out.
>> As Francisco started backtracking, Heidi's friends followed his lead. >> He never said that to you guys that was
more than just your friend. >> Um, not as far as we know. No. cuz I wanted to know if she ever said that to
you because if she ever thought that we were more than just that. And it's not that I
would be mad or anything, but she just never ever said anything to me like that. Like, hey, she never even told me
she liked me. It was nothing like that. So, and I wish kind of she told you guys
is what she felt about me, but I guess not. >> Okay. >> She didn't ever say anything about me
like that to you guys? Not that we can not that we are aware of. >> No, >> it's not it's not it's not a big deal.
But what the reason I I asked is cuz I'm not really sure why she called me. I spoke to the other guy that she says
she's romantically involved with. I actually spoke to him yesterday and we kind of talked and
I don't really know what she was telling him and what she was telling me, but I I
just wanted to make sure that I wanted to see if that's what she meant when you said relationship if she thought that I
was more than >> just her friend, like someone she hangs out with. >> Now, obviously Corbin goes to Heidi's
parents with these calls. And by the way, just a side note, I love these kids. Corbin and his friends sounded
>> better on those calls than some seasoned investigators that I've heard. >> I know. I will send you the whole call
because honestly like these guys are chef's kiss. Like they sound like crime junkies who have been taking notes since
birth and they do not come to play. So anyways, Heidi's parents like get these recorded calls. They already have Daniel
in their ear talking about Francisco, but they didn't need him to turn them against the guy. between the way he
unraveled the day that Heidi died, his whole demeanor, and now Corbin telling them about the calls, like they are sure
something is up. So during this time, is Francisco in contact with Mike and Janice? Tries to be at first, but he's
not admitting to any inappropriate relationship with Heidi? And actually, while you have Daniel badmouthing
Francisco, Francisco is bad mouthing Daniel, telling Janice that the Explorer program should have been shut down, that
under Daniel's leadership, the teens were barely supervised. And someone must have agreed with Francisco on that point
at least, because Daniel says that within a couple of weeks of Heidi's death, he was moved to a new role.
Officially, on paper, it's a promotion, but to him, it felt like a punishment, even though he was told he could stay
involved with the explorers if he wanted to. But regardless of the explorers, he
still stays close with Heidi's family, even staying with them for a little bit while he and his wife are going through
a divorce. He vacations with them that spring. So, imagine the shock and the betrayal that they feel when they learn
who the other guy in Heidi's life really was. >> He's another IMPD officer. And not just
any officer. It was the man who ran the Explorer program. the man who lived with
them and vacationed with them, Daniel Bowman. In January 2016, Daniel's wife filed for
divorce. That's when he was staying with Heidi's family. But this was no amicable
divorce. In May, he ends up getting arrested on more than a dozen charges tied to domestic abuse against his
soon-to-be ex. Some stemming from incidents that happened years earlier. She tells police that he had been
violent and controlling, forcing her to bark like a dog, punching her, shoving her into walls, threatening her with his
service weapon, even pointing it at their sleeping daughter. And she says it got worse after Heidi died that Daniel
admitted that they had been involved and he just spiraled. She left because she feared what he would do next. So, in the
time between Heidi's death in November and then his arrest in May, dude had been unraveling. He moved to that
different position, which again he saw as punishment. Then his wife left him and word was starting to spread around
the station that he had a relationship with Heidi, too. Now, according to Daniel, those were just rumors. He says
started by Francisco and a couple of other officers. He told Nah that they were the ones who contacted his then
wife and planted this idea in her head. He says that he never implied that he and Heidi were involved to his ex or to
anyone else. But based on what we know, Heidi told friends, they believed that she and Daniel were involved, which
again, Daniel denies. He told us he cared about Heidi as a friend and mentor, but insists that nothing between
them was romantic or sexual. Okay, but why is a grown man friends with a teenage girl in his program? I mean, she
would have been like 16 when they met, >> right? which in Indiana 16 is the age of
consent, >> but to be >> like, who cares? >> Yeah. Like still a minor. He's still in
a place of authority. Like, I'm sorry. >> And he's saying nothing happened. So, like I agree, like he should not be
friends with a 16-year-old, especially when, like you're saying, he's in a position of power. But Daniel says that
he felt close to all of the older explorers, and he swears that he and Heidi were only alone twice briefly,
like as they left meetings. So, why is Heidi telling her friends things to make them believe that he and Heidi are
dating? >> Daniel told us that he's not sure what gave her that impression. Maybe she
misread his goofing around, something he says he did with everyone. But if your goofing around as a supervisory officer
gives a minor in your care the impression that she has a relationship with you, >> that's like the bigger problem, right?
Yeah. >> Yeah. You're the problem. And I guarantee that the goofing around that's
happening is highly inappropriate. >> Either way, Daniel basically blames Francisco and the other cops for all of
this. He says he documented what was happening and when he learned that one of the initial detectives working
Heidi's case might have ties to Francisco, he like sends this memo up the chain. He saw himself as the good
guy. And we know that because of text messages that he sent his wife. text that would later become part of the
probable cause affidavit for his domestic violence arrest. On April 6th, 2016, he texted her, quote, "I'll be a
hero, a whistleblower, fighting police corruption, and if not, I have nothing to lose. You've taken everything I've
ever worked for. He took my only friend." End quote. And then on May 9th, 2016, he says, quote, "Right now, I'm
only interested in going to there's another cop's name that I'm not going to say, and putting a bullet in their
heads. I'm furious. This department failed. This city needs more dead cops." End [music] quote. Those messages are a
big reason that his wife contacted police. Like, his communications were becoming more threatening. And those I
got straight from a legal document. But Daniel told us that he didn't write them.
>> Of course. Of course. Then please, Daniel, who did? >> He blames his now ex or like someone
close to her says that she had access to his iMac and like she could have sent them.
>> That's his story. >> Okay. Anyway, after Daniel's arrest, he postponed and goes home on electric
monitoring to await trial for the domestic violence charges. And still at this point, nothing had happened with
Heidi's case or with Francisco or the Explorer's program because they still have not been able to get into Heidi's
phone. It isn't until fall 2017 when new technology becomes available that they can finally crack it. And what they find
makes it clear why wouldn't want them to see their communications. It shows just
how manipulative he had been and how much they had been in contact. All told, they exchanged over 300 calls in the
month and a half, just the month and a half before her death and 177 texts in the final 3 days. Now, I haven't seen
most of them. This is a closed case with IMPD, but they're still withholding most
of the records, including a lot of the texts. And listen, we've worked with a lot of agencies over the years. IMPD has
consistently been one of the hardest to get records from. [music] >> And when I say hardest, I do mean
impossible. Which I hate to say about the agency that's in my own backyard. >> But I have way better relationships with
other agencies. Like why the f does it need to be so hard here? Like what are we hiding something,
>> right? Like my mind goes to like why not? But of the messages I can see, including some from a probable cause
affidavit. Francisco's tone goes from like flirty to furious, he berates her for lying and gaslights her about this
other officer and demands to know where they stand. They end up talking three times on the day that she died. And
after the last call, he flooded her with messages, texting things like, "You can't do this to me. You can't. and I'm
headed to your house right now and you're going to make me look so stupid in front of your family. You make me
feel like this is really all my fault. And the one thing that's more interesting than the texts is the data
showing that all of those messages between Francisco and Heidi were deleted around the time that he used her phone
to call Daniel. And after the messages were wiped, that is when the phone was locked. So that November, more than 2
years after Heidi's death, Francisco is arrested for felony obstruction of justice and misdemeanor computer
trespass. Both him and Daniel are off the force, suspended without pay, facing termination as their cases begin to
crawl through the court system. So, I'm kind of getting lost on like what the truth is or was like, was Heidi involved
with Daniel or Francisco or both? So, based on everything that we've learned from court records, from everyone we
spoke to who had direct knowledge of the situation, it appears that Heidi was involved with both men.
>> And that kind of dynamic, like one teen, multiple officers, is sadly not unusual.
I mean, it it really underscores how predatory some of the adults in these programs can be.
>> And did police find any texts between Heidi and Daniel when they got into her
phone? >> So, here's what's interesting. I don't know where they find them. His phone,
her phone, whatever. But I know that they find texts. However, they don't actually charge him with anything
related to Heidi. And those texts never make it into any record that we have access to
>> and IMPD won't share records, >> right? So in August of 2018, that is when Daniel goes to trial for his
domestic violence charges. Now he gets found guilty on eight of the 13 counts, but that's all involving his then wife,
not Heidi. >> So the only way I know that there were messages between him and Heidi that seem
suspicious is because of what happens next. So, in February of 2019, he gets deposed for Francisco's case, and the
prosecutor presses him on Heidi, reading their text aloud and basically saying that she thinks he's lying about the
nature of their relationship. But his attorney jumps in and shuts it down, arguing that it could expose him to new
charges and that that is not relevant to Francisco's case. >> Okay. if those texts could open him up to new
charges. >> Mhm. >> And the prosecutor has those texts. >> Mhm. >> I hate to ask this question, but what
are we doing here? >> Dude, I don't know. I like I I don't cuz I don't know what's in them.
>> I mean, maybe they knew they could only prove the DB charges and figured he'd
get like a long enough sentence for those that they wouldn't have to worry. Okay.
>> Yeah. No, about that. So, according to Indianapolis Star reporter Mark Alicia,
at Daniel's sentencing, the judge says that she thinks he has a [music] dark side, but also says that his police
background makes prison more dangerous for him. So, the judge considered it an extenduating circumstance, but still
sentences him to 8 years plus 4 years probation. That's something at least. >> Mhm. But hang on. He wasn't in prison
long before his lawyer asked for home detention, arguing that he wasn't safe behind bars. I guess the defense did
some research, found out that the judge had the option to offer home detention and that Daniel basically they're like,
"He has a job. He has a house. He has a baby on the way with his new wife. Oh, oh, by the way, he has a new wife. He
has older kids who depend on his paycheck." >> Prosecutors obviously objected, but a
different judge okayed it. And after less than four months, Daniel was released on electronic monitoring. So he
finishes the sentence in 2022. And since then, he has rebuilt his image in academia, branding himself as an
advocate for justiceimpacted students, working in a university lab that studies criminal, legal, and social
systems. And he's pursuing a PhD. To this day, Daniel insists that the judge got it wrong. He denies everything, the
abuse, the text, the threats, any inappropriate relationship with Heidi. I mean, people don't usually get parrolled
without admitting guilt. And and Daniel clearly hasn't. So, I know it's not quite parole, but like why did he get to
sit at home through all that? >> Dude, I wish I knew. The Marian County Prosecutor's Office told us that the
lenient outcome was unusual, and they don't seem to know why he got it. >> And what happened to Francisco? So, in
2022, Francisco pleaded guilty to a reduced misdemeanor obstruction of justice. He gets a year of probation,
240 hours of community service, and is ordered to submit weekly journal entries to the court.
Wait, just hold on. There are no police officers in trouble for having a relationship with a minor in the police
explorer program. Well, since we couldn't get records from IMPD, I don't know if they even explored
that [music] angle. Heidi was a minor when she entered the program, but she was 18 when she died, and the only texts
that we've seen are from when she was 18. So, what are we supposed to take that to
mean? Like, IMPD is just cool with allegations of officers grooming minors till they turn 18, right? Like,
>> like they're cool with the power dynamic of an officer having a relationship with
someone in their program as long as they're 18. I mean, there were at least internal affairs investigations in the
Sandra Birmore case. Like, that's something. Well, I mean, remember IMPD did add a policy this year, 2025. Heidi
2015, 10 years later, they added a policy this year saying they weren't cool with it.
>> Oh, good. >> But what is maddening to me is that more than a decade after Heidi's death, so
much is still unclear. What did IMPD know and when? >> Right. It's obvious that someone in
leadership saw something, at least with Francisco, because Janice told us that apparently in the spring of 2015, so
this is months before Heidi died, a highranking official pulled her aside and said that they were concerned Heidi
was riding with the same male officer a little too often. He suggested that she like, you know, maybe mix it up, ride
with some different officers. Now, Janice doesn't remember if he named Francisco specifically, but she knew
that's who he meant since Heidi often did ride alongs with him. So, she and Mike told Heidi, "Switch it up." They
assumed she did. So, they were worried enough to tell her mom, but not to actually do anything themselves. We
don't know what they did, >> right? Meanwhile, despite what Daniel told us, that he was in the dark about
Heidi's frequently tagging along with Francisco on patrol after she died, he told her mom that everyone knew that
they were going on too many ride alongs. Mike and Janice still don't feel like they got the full story, and they feel
betrayed knowing that two men who were supposed to protect Heidi failed her. And those guys walked away with barely
any consequences. Now, our team has spent the better part of a year trying to find out more. We filed multiple
requests with IMPD, and we got back a few records and like vague assurances that they're working on getting us more.
And at the same time, they claim that they're withholding some under an investigatory exemption, but they
haven't said what or why considering both criminal cases are closed, >> right? >> And they also declined an interview
saying that the answers are, wait for it, in the records. the records that they won't give us the ones. Okay. So,
we're just like in this little circle. >> Yeah. Now, we couldn't reach and neither he nor Daniel has ever
publicly admitted to anything beyond a friendship with Heidi. But the general feeling from people we spoke to, family,
friends, people in the mix, is that both crossed a line and they put Heidi in the
middle, pressuring her to choose between them. And that toxic triangle dynamic isn't just our interpretation, either.
We spoke to John Moore who is a former sergeant with the special investigations unit at IMPD. He worked the case against
Daniel. He told us that investigators broader takeaway was that Heidi was in an inappropriate relationship involving
both men and that they both groomed her using their authority and access as officers to build her trust and blur the
boundaries. Court files have some details but not enough to show how closely investigators looked at either
of them. We don't know how seriously they checked out Daniel's relationship with Heidi or how deeply they dug into
Francisco beyond the obstruction case. Between the delays and the denials and the no comments, IMPD has made it nearly
impossible to understand what really happened. And instead of answers, we got stonewalled. We don't even know how IMPD
supervised the Explorer post. But if Daniel's account is accurate, he ran it mostly on his own. There were about 30
teens on the roster, maybe 10 regulars, and he was the only sworn officer directly involved. There was a sergeant
who offered light oversight and a few adult volunteers that helped out, including former explorers. And when
Daniel took over, he was a patrol officer with zero youth experience. He basically says that he was handed the
post with a here you go and no manual, just learning for life handouts and IMPD's general orders, which he kind of
cobbled together into a rule book. And by the way, just as a reminder, Learning for Life is the organization that most
explorer programs in the country run through. >> And as I mentioned, Learning for Life is
an affiliate of Scouting >> America. >> Yeah. Aka the Boy Scouts. I don't know if you've ever heard of any abuse
problems with them, >> but quick download. In 2020, the Boy Scouts filed for bankruptcy after being
hit with over, wait for it, 82,000 sexual abuse claims. One of the largest abuse scandals in US history. The
organization had known about the abuse for decades, keeping internal records commonly known as the perversion files,
but often failing to report abusers to authorities. So, all that to say, I bet you would be surprised to know that in
2015, Learning for Life still had no guidance on adult communication with teens outside of meetings, no policy on
texting. Now, that same year, the Boy Scouts adopted a digital version of what they call too deep leadership, meaning
that no one-on-one contact between like adults and minors, including through texting, DMs, or gaming. But Learning
for Life has its own handbook, and the digital contact rule wasn't included that year, and we couldn't find it in
there until 2017. So, to me, this isn't just an Indianapolis problem. These programs seem to be built in a way that
makes them prime for grooming. And the failures we're seeing here are happening in agencies all over the country. And
there's no national public database for explorer misconduct. I mean, we know sexual abuse in general is notoriously
under reportported, >> but there have been reporters and researchers who tried to pin down how
widespread this problem is. A recent investigation by Lijra Chavis of the Marshall Project identified at least 217
abuse and misconduct allegations in law enforcement explorer programs going back
to the 1970s when girls were first allowed in spanning more than 100 agencies with officers grooming or
sexually abusing victims as young [music] as 13 or 14. A 2003 study by criminologists Samuel Walker and Don
Earlbe found that nearly half of all reported cases of officer sexual misconduct with teenagers happen in
explorer posts. So even though these programs are just one way that cops interact with teens, they account for a
disproportionate share of the known abuse. And while girls are more often targeted, boys and young men have been
victimized, too. Now supporters of the programs point out that these cases are rare. a small fraction of the tens of
thousands of teens who have participated since 1959 when a California sheriff's department started the very first post.
And listen, for sure, when operated properly, explore programs can offer real value.
>> Participants, usually 14 to 20, get early exposure to police work while building leadership, discipline,
confidence, a sense of belonging. Agencies get a recruitment pipeline, a way to connect with the community. It
should be a win-win, right? So, how do we get the good without putting children at risk? The answer is oversight. For
post underlearning for life, the organization is supposed to set and enforce protection rules with a
five-point safety plan. Screen out abusers, educate youth, parents, and volunteers about warning signs, set
boundaries, encourage reporting, remove offenders. In practice, every safeguard lives or
dies at the local level. And as then freelance journalist Jonathan Kaminsky found, historically, Learning for Life
has mostly left agencies to police themselves. And inside that shaky setup is a glaring vulnerability, ridealongs,
the program's most popular feature and its riskiest. California based attorney Anthony DeMarco, who has spent years
litigating explore abuse cases, told us that ridealongs are a perfect setup for exploitation. hours alone with a
powerful adult with no one else able to see or hear what's happening and almost no real oversight from the department.
But doesn't that too deep leadership rule apply? Everywhere except ride alongs, at least they were the exception
until just this past June when Learning for Life finally started requiring two adults in the car if the Explorer is
under 18. Before that, the loophole was wide open. And the Marshall Project concluded that ridealongs factored into
about a quarter of abuse cases. But ride-alongs are only part of it. These programs are a perfect storm because
they stack all these risk factors together. Officers get access to teens. Oversight is often thin. And the kids
want to be there. They're ambitious. They want to impress. A lot of them see this as their future. And the structure
can make it hard to tell where normal training ends and something sketchy begins. So when an officer singles them
out with extra attention, >> it can feel important. >> It's their big break instead of feeling
like a red flag. That's how grooming usually starts here. Not with threats, but with connection.
An officer becomes a confidant, builds trust, maybe gets close to the family. And that's just as true when the teen is
legally an adult like Heidi. A birthday does not erase the power imbalance. >> And from there, things can escalate,
right? It's a ride home, a private hangout, late night messages. By the time that it's clearly sexual or
coercive, the team might actually feel like they went along with it or that speaking up would ruin everything, their
reputation, their shot at the job, their future. Anthony says that there is often
this unspoken deal. Stay quiet and the doors stay open. speak up and it slams shut. And victims might also be afraid.
By the way, >> they're cops. >> These are cops. Yes, they carry weapons. They can arrest you. A lot of victims
worry that they'll be targeted or that no one is going to believe them. So many of them never even tell. Some of them
come forward years later, and even when they do, there's no guarantee that they're going to get justice. And this
isn't just a stat. So, I did a bit of a call out about the explore program, if you remember, in our episode on Peggy
Hetress. And not too long ago, I posted a Tik Tok asking people to share their stories with me if they were in the
program. Didn't say what kind of stories, just left it open. And the number of messages I got from people was
wild. So many of them had stories from their past where either they had friends that were in intimate relationships with
officers or they themselves were groomed. and tons of them still didn't want to come forward even now.
>> So, the problem is so much bigger than we think it is. But there were some people who decided to share their story
in hopes that it could save even one more young person from abuse. And one of those people was a 43-year-old woman who
I'll call Kate. In 1998, then 15-year-old Kate joined the Bosowin Police Explorer program in
New Hampshire. She'd grown up admiring a DARE officer and knew that she wanted to
be a cop. The post seemed like the perfect first step. A small group of teens led by Officer John Laros, who was
in his late 20s. And John's mom had been a teacher of Kate, so he like already felt safe and he knew how badly she
wanted this career. and he knew that she was vulnerable. As a pre-teen, she'd questioned her sexuality. Her parents
eventually came around, but for a while, they restricted what she could do. She felt really cut off, and Jon acted like
the one adult who accepted her no matter what. As the Explore adviser, he controlled everything. The program
included regular ride alongs, sometimes overnight shifts, and Kate was often paired with him. And her parents were
fine with it. They trusted him and supported her goals. But it didn't take long for him to start just like pushing
boundaries. Within months, she said that he was steering conversations toward sex, making crude jokes, asking her
about her experiences, and oversharing his own, including that he cheated on his wife. Now, at first, Kate didn't see
it as wrong. It felt like he was treating her like an equal. She actually felt special. But sometime around early
2000, Kate says that he assaulted her. It happened in this dark secluded lot near the county jail. This like boat
launch that he routinely checked while on patrol. And she tells us that one night he drove there, made a comment
about people having sex there, and then told her to get out of the car and perform oral sex on him. And she said
she didn't feel like she had a choice. She was a teenage girl alone with an armed officer, afraid of his reaction,
afraid of ruining her future, so she complied. Kate told us that there were more assaults in the months that
followed, all while he was on duty. At one point, she says that John even showed her a news article about another
cop getting arrested for assaulting an explorer. He then pulled out the New Hampshire criminal code and read her the
exact statute, the one that described what he was doing as felonious sexual assault. Like Kate didn't want to anger
him, so she like tried to reassure him like she was over 16, the age of consent in New Hampshire. But he corrected her
if the adult is in a position of authority, the law is actually 18. So he absolutely knew what he was doing and he
made sure Kate knew too. And after that, she changed. She became this shadow of the fun-loving kid that her friends
knew. She tried to tell another explorer what was happening, but instead of support, she got shamed. So, she stayed
in the post for a couple more years. It did open doors for her, like she graduated high school early. She got
into a criminal justice program, even landed a civilian job with another police department. But the trauma
followed her. She was convinced that she led him on, that she didn't deserve happiness, and eventually she gave up
her dream of becoming a cop. Now, years passed. Kate got married, and in 2013, she had a daughter. And there was
something about becoming a [music] parent that made her finally see things differently. And she knew that she'd
want someone to be held accountable if they did this to her child. So in September of 2014, after a lot of
soulsearching, she actually reported John. He was long gone from Bosowin by then. He was actually chief of police in
nearby Canterbury at that time. >> Right. But since he and the Bosowin chief had worked together, the case was
handed over to the New Hampshire Attorney General's office. Investigators asked Kate to wear a wire and confront
him. And listen, she hadn't seen him in ages. And the prospect of this was like overwhelming. But she agreed and she
goes to meet him at the Canterbury station. And on tape, they have this guy admitting to the sexual activity, even
apologizing, though he was like insisting it was consensual. And later when investigators confronted him again,
he repeated the confession. And according to WUR's Heather Hamill, he even said that he thought it was quote
fun to flirt with a 16-year-old under his control. What? In August 2015, John was arrested for aggravated felonious
sexual assault and placed on unpaid leave. And news coverage shows that he was indicted on a slew of felony and
misdemeanor sexual assault charges a couple of months later. Then he resigned the following January. By summer of
2016, the case went to trial. He actually took the stand where again he admits to the sexual encounters with
Kate, but is still claiming they were consensual. How can he call it consensual when the law literally says
it [music] wasn't? And also, he pointed out that law. >> Literally, that's what prosecutors
argued that like the whole thing was grooming and coercion. They brought in an expert on trauma and pressed him on
his changing stories. But Jon's defense painted him as like this like bumbling and harmless guy and suggested that Kate
had financial motive to go after him. Two former explorers testified that she had quote bragged about the
relationship. And so after 7 days of testimony, [music] the jury deliberated for just 2 hours and they found him not
guilty on all charges. >> [laughter] >> I know. >> In In what world was he not in a position of authority? It's
baffling. >> I This is unreal. >> According to Kate, prosecutors later asked jurors what shaped their decision.
And you know, they said they just couldn't picture Jon being a violent guy, and they questioned why she would
stay in the program. Some people thought she cried too much. Some people thought
she didn't cry enough or that she seemed just too strong. So it it didn't matter
what she did or was going to do, it was the wrong reaction. She was never going to make herself the perfect victim for
them, >> which is like what we see all the time, right? Like survivors are held to
impossible standards. >> They're expected to fit this narrow script, like be composed, but not too
composed. Remember every detail, even though trauma distorts memory, and if they don't match what people think a
real victim quote unquote looks like, they're not believed. Kate was crushed. Mhm.
>> The attorney general's office encouraged her to file a civil suit. Like some survivors pursue that even when criminal
charges don't stick, but she just couldn't stomach another courtroom. Like the public backlash was already intense
and she worried that suing would make people dismiss her story, like think it was just about money, so she decided
against it. The upside is that John Lash is no longer a cop. And after he was suspended, locals raised broader
concerns about Canterbury PD. So, the sheriff's office reviewed the department and they actually found over a decade of
mismanagement and dysfunction under his leadership. Now, we reached out to John via text. He told us that there was
nothing to discuss since he was found not guilty. And when we noted that he still admitted to sexual contact with a
minor explorer and asked if he had anything to say now, nearly a decade later, he said that he'd already
answered for it at trial and told us to lose his number. No one at Bosow PD today was around during Jon's [music]
time or the Explorer era, but the chief told us that the program was shut down long before Jon's arrest and that no
other complaints were ever reported. Speaking out even now still feels risky to Kate emotionally and legally. Like,
we're using a pseudonym, but that's not going to hide her identity from him or the community. But she decided it was
worth it. Silence hadn't protected her. it only protected him. And she wants people to know what happened. And she
hopes that her story helps someone else get justice even though she didn't. And Kate's not alone in that hope or [music]
even that outcome. For many survivors, justice stays just out of reach. The Marshall Project found that only about
half of the Explorer related cases that they tracked led to any time behind bars. Big reason is because of plea
deals. charges just get like reduced to misdemeanors or to nonsex offenses. Beyond Explorer Post, a Washington Post
investigation found that nearly 40% of officers convicted of sex crimes involving children from 2005 to 2022
never served a day [music] in prison. >> And when there is punishment, there is no real standard of what that is.
Charges fall under this like mix of state and federal laws, statutory rape, abuse of power, civil rights violations.
Prosecutors don't always use the same playbook, even when the behavior looks similar. And so, sentencing is all over
the place. >> Inside agencies, discipline is just as inconsistent. Some officers are fired,
some resign, others stay on the job with reprimand or short suspension, or sometimes nothing at all. And that's
what happened in Jennifer's case. In the late 80s, Jennifer joined the Contraosta
County Sheriff's Explorer program in California after hearing about it at school. She was 15 and already set on a
career in law enforcement. And this post was smaller, like fewer than 10 teens and run entirely by one deputy who we're
going to call Bill. Bill, who was in his mid to late30s, started inviting Jennifer on overnight ride alongs a
couple of times a week. Her parents are fine with it. She was with a cop. Like, what could be safer? And over the next
couple of years, he slowly introduced her to inappropriate behavior. things like telling her how beautiful that she
was going to be when she grew up. She trusted him, believed what he said, and valued his opinion. She idolized this
man. So, when one night he turned around in the patrol car and kissed her, she was stunned, but also flattered. A month
later, he took her to his house while his wife was away and pressured her to have sex. Now, she said no, and he
stopped that time. Now, soon after her family moved to Florida and before leaving, she confided in another
explorer. Not as like a cry for help like Kate, more like she was mourning the end of something that she thought
was real. >> Like in her mind, what they had had been a relationship. That explorer told the
sheriff's office, and to their credit, they opened an investigation, but by then, Jennifer was across the country.
So, everything was happening over the phone with her, but only with her. What do you mean only her? They didn't talk
to her parents. >> Mm-m. They had no idea that that >> even though she was still a minor.
>> Yeah. It's wild. And like in that moment, since Jennifer was like so embarrassed, she minimized it, but she
did at least confirm that they kissed and that the relationship was inappropriate. The sheriff's office
didn't respond to our interview request. But as far as we know, the investigation
went nowhere. Bill didn't lose his badge. Records show that he did step down as explorer adviser in 1991, but he
stayed on the job for nearly two more decades. [music] Jennifer joined another explorer post in Florida. This one
larger and more structured, but the same problems persisted. She remembers the comments like the lingering attention
from male cops of all ages. At the time, when she's young, it didn't feel predatory. It felt like being noticed.
She went through the academy, worked as a dispatcher, and became a reserve officer. But the steady boundary pushing
wore her down. And eventually she realized these are not superheroes. They are just human men in uniforms. Some
good, some not. So when she got pregnant, she left the field. Last year, while flipping through an old photo
album, Jennifer decided that she actually wanted to confront Bill. But that's when she found out that he died.
So there would be no reckoning, no chance to look him in the eye and tell him what he'd done to her. And she
carried shame for years, blaming herself. And only later did she understand how vulnerable teens are and
how men like Bill take advantage of that. Heidi, Kate, Jennifer, and so many others, they did what adults told them
to do. They trusted the people in charge, and so did their parents. I mean, go back to Heidi. Take Mike and
Janice Gatliff. They were so involved. It's not like they just dropped Heidi off and hoped for the best. Mike went to
her first meeting. They showed up to events, but they were also trusting the system and thought that Heidi was
surrounded by honorable cops worthy of their powerful positions. You know, they still believe the law enforcement
explorer programs can work if there's real oversight and accountability. But they don't think Heidi got that. And
they have to live with the ache of knowing that they'll never see her huge smile or hear her contagious laugh
again. She'll never wear the badge that she worked so hard for, pouring nearly 2,000 hours into the explorers. So, what
they hold on to now is their faith and their memories. The way that Heidi could turn everything into a joke. The moment
that she made a quiet child in Haiti smile during a missions trip just by refusing to give up. They know that
Heidi changed lives simply by being who she was. [music] and her compassion and her drive and her goofy sense of humor
all came from one place, a heart that was wired to show up for others. So, in all of this, I I have to ask, does IMPD
still have its program? When detective Christine Manina took over after Daniel Bowman, she told us that it was
basically a free-for-all. Like, teens tried to outrank her and like boss her around. So,
>> so back then she came in, she set new rules, tightened boundaries. Some of the
kids left, most of them stayed and she ran the program for like 5 years before she retired. [music] And to answer your
question, no, they don't have an explore program now. They have something called
junior cadetses, but as of late October, IMPD told us no one was enrolled in that. So whether that's a fresh start or
just a rebrand remains to be seen because a new name doesn't mean new safeguards. And those safeguards are
what's necessary because this isn't just about a few bad apples. This is, I keep
saying it, about a system that allowed them to operate, policies that left massive gaps, higher-ups that looked the
other way or downplayed allegations, and a culture that protected [music] the institution first and the kids last. And
girl, this isn't even a new problem. Like, f the stats. This has been a systemic issue for decades. Like, I
don't know if you knew this, but in the 70s, the Los Angeles Police Department found itself under investigation after
some officers were discovered taking overnight camping trips with teenage girls from the department's all female
explorer post. And one of the girls described these camping trips as quote, "Little more than orgies." According to
reporting, it had been happening for like a couple of years before an explorer finally sounded the alarm. In
that case, some officers were charged, but news coverage shows that most of the cases just collapsed. Prosecutors cited
a lack of evidence and victim cooperation. In some cases, they say they couldn't prove that the officers
knew that the girls were underage. I guess it was too much detective work for them to like figure out that the girls
in a youth program were youths. Yeah. >> And department discipline was also weak.
like a few resigned, a few were suspended, one was fired, one got a disability pension for injuries and
emotional stress, others were cleared, and then like by the late 70s, the whole thing just like fizzled out in the
media. According to Jonathan Kaminsky's reporting, it had been happening for a couple of years before the Explorer
sounded the alarm. It doesn't have to be this way. Some groups are doing it right, like the Duchess County Sheriff's
Office Law Enforcement Youth Cadet Program in New York. Their adviser, Sergeant Alonzo Montana, has built
guardrails into every part of it. Communication runs through tracked group platforms. Parents are looped in early
and often, and historically, they haven't even allowed ridealongs at all. When Nina spoke with Sergeant Montana
earlier this year, they were just starting to phase them in with [music] very strict rules. And we spoke to a
woman named Don Bolley in Wisconsin. She says that she joined her local Explorer
Post in the early 1980s when she was a freshman in high school. She learned skills like conflict resolution,
emergency response, even firearms training. She loved her program leaders and says that they changed her life and
the lives of others in the program. For Dawn, it wasn't just a resume builder. It was formative. It showed her how to
stay calm under pressure and that being a cop wasn't the path for her at all. >> So, it's not the explorers that need to
stop. >> Yes. >> As usual, it's just the abuse. Yes, but any meaningful change has to start with
the agencies running these programs. >> They're the ones with the power and the obligation to enforce the rules,
>> the responsibility. >> Yeah. And my god, be thoughtful about who you put in charge. Don't just grab
whoever's free and hand them a group of teenagers. I mean, like, right now, the qualifications are pretty minimal.
Adviserss have to be at least 21, pass a background check, and get agency approval, and then be signed off by the
local exploring council. >> And do they go through any like serious safety training? Not really. So beyond
the background check, the like training they have to do is pretty much just online webinars. And actually, Nina,
when she was doing all the reporting on this, she took them and earned the same safety certification that advisers get
while sitting on her couch in one night. >> Salute to Nina. Salute to Nina. Now, the
recent ride along policy change by Learning for Life, which by the way never responded to our interview
requests, is a step in the right direction, but rules on paper are the easy part.
>> We still don't know how or how often that policy is enforced or what actually
happens to agencies that ignore it. That attorney I mentioned, Anthony DeMarco, sees the problem as systemic. Officers
are given unsupervised access to minors, then protected by a culture and union contracts that often shield them from
serious consequences, even when there is misconduct. His view is don't just slap
a band-aid on the problem. Make it as transparent and accountable from the ground up starting with ride alongs. So,
what can we do? >> Right here you go. I love to leave you with a good takeaway. So, if you're a
parent, an agency, or a teenager in the program, I got you covered. So, agencies
define inappropriate conduct clearly, things like shoulder rubs or oversharing, and act early with serious
discipline or termination before it escalates. Make ride along assignments random so officers can't quietly
handpick the same teens over and over. Use tech like interior audio and video in patrol cars, GPS tracking, maybe even
like an Uber style recording that kicks in for every ride. The thing is like Anthony thinks that there would be a lot
of push back on that idea from cops and explorers. >> Okay, >> but like who cares? Like in my mind if
it protects even one kid, it's worth the discomfort. Now parents, if your child wants to join an explorer cadet program,
>> do not assume uniforms mean it's safe. Treat it the way you would a new school
or a daycare when your kids were little. Ask who runs the post, what are the rules, how are ride alongs tracked,
what's the policy on texting and social media? How are complaints handled? Stay involved. Show up. Talk to adviserss.
Connect with other parents. The more visible you are, the easier it is for your kid to speak up if something feels
off. And keep the conversation going at home. Talk about boundaries. Make sure your kid knows that they can come to
you. If an adult, even if it's someone in uniform, >> especially someone in uniform,
>> if they make them uncomfortable, remind them that abuse is never their fault.
And if they disclose it, go straight to the authorities. If local law enforcement shrugs it off or you're
concerned about a conflict of interest, go above them to state or federal agencies. And for my youths listening,
explorers or no explorers, you guys are faced with crazy [snorts] all the time. I wanted to be 20 when I
was eight and I was like dying for someone to look at me like I was older and mature. And some people will do that
with respect. They're going to give you responsibility and the room to come into
your own. But others are going to try and take advantage. I didn't know what the signs were when I was young. So, let
me talk to you like the grown-up you are. You are not an idiot. So if you feel like a line is being crossed, you
get that like tingling in your spine or that jelly in your belly, you know something is off, you do not have to
justify it. You don't have to excuse it away. It's not your responsibility to make adults feel comfortable. And you do
not have to protect them from their own actions. And if you realize it too late,
no, you didn't. It is never too late to draw the line and stop unwanted behavior. And it is never your fault.
Doesn't matter if it's a cop or your pastor or a teacher or a coach. Whether it's an Explorer program or somewhere
else, you don't owe anyone your time, attention, or access. If an officer asks to meet alone or sends flirty, secretive
messages or just gives you a bad feeling, tell someone you trust. And if something already happened, you are not
to blame. Even if you didn't or couldn't say no in the moment, even if it felt like something you agreed to, power
dynamics can twist what feels like a choice. And you deserve support no matter what. So, crime junkies, if any
part of this episode hit home. If you know someone who's been affected by abuse in any youth setting or you just
want those spaces to be safer, talk about this. Share this episode. We can do better. We have to for Heidi and Kate
and Jennifer and for the next teenager who walks into an Explorer post with the dreams of one day wearing a badge. If
you or someone you know is struggling or has experienced abuse, help is available. We're going to link resources
in our show notes, including hotlines for sexual assault, child abuse, domestic violence, and suicide
prevention. Please reach out if you need to or share them with someone who might.
As always, you can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.
And if you want to listen to more episodes like this and all of our episodes, completely adfree, be sure to
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For decades, Police Explorer Programs have promised young people a safe path into law enforcement through mentorship, ride-alongs, and a chance to serve their communities. But beneath that promise lies a disturbing pattern showing how these programs have repeatedly failed to protect the very teens they were designed to serve.

This episode begins in Indianapolis, Indiana, on November 2, 2015, when 18-year-old Heidi Gatliff, a high-achieving Police Explorer was found dead in her family’s home. In the days that followed, investigators discovered troubling behavior by Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department (IMPD) officer Francisco Olmos, who had frequent private contact with Heidi, accessed her phone after her death, and deleted critical messages. But, as the investigation expanded, another name emerged. Daniel Bullman was the officer who ran the IMPD Explorer program and became deeply embedded in Heidi’s family’s life. Bullman was later arrested and convicted on multiple felony charges unrelated to Heidi, raising serious questions about unchecked authority, access to minors, and institutional blind spots. But Heidi’s case is only one piece of a much larger story.

From New Hampshire to California, and dating back to the 1970s, this episode examines multiple allegations involving officers who used Explorer Programs to groom and exploit teens, often during ride-alongs, late-night messaging, or unsupervised one-on-one interactions.

This is not just one case- it’s an investigation into a system that has operated in plain sight for decades and the urgent changes needed to keep teens safe.

-------- Key Episode Moments: 0:00 - 1:26 - Case Intro 1:27 - 4:12 - Heidi Gatliff’s Death 4:13 - 6:59 - Francisco’s Suspicious Behavior 7:00 - 9:54 - Phone Locked & Messages Deleted 9:55 - 12:16 - Francisco Interrogation 12:17 - 15:24 - Daniel Bullman Enters the Picture 15:25 - 18:09 - Texts Between Heidi & Daniel 18:10 - 21:08 - Domestic Violence Charges Against Daniel 21:09 - 24:07 - Francisco Pleads to Obstruction 24:08 - 28:00 - Explorer Program Oversight Failures 28:01 - 32:16 - Kate’s Explorer Program Abuse 32:17 - 35:03 - Officer Acquitted at Trial 35:04 - 40:00 - Pattern of Explorer Program Misconduct 40:01 - 45:20 - Systemic Failures & Lack of Accountability 45:21 - 1:06:40 - How Explorer Programs Can Be Safer 1:06:41 - 1:09:57 - Outro

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Check out these other great crime channels: @kallmekris This Cold Case STUMPED The FBI | The Springfield 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSDrtbJ_8eI @annieelise Stalked, CCTV Footage & Murdered at Elite School in Australia | Lilie James https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMY7xLEQrA @KendallRae A Night Out, 2 Suspicious Men & A Fatal Car Crash: What Happened to Morgan Patten? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4DhtIejzVo&t=1s @christinaarandall Gretchen Anthony, a Single Mother Who Found Love w/ David a Conspiracy Theorist w/ a Head Injury https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqNlWl6woVw

Brief Summary

This episode examines the systemic failures of police Explorer programs through Heidi Gatliff's tragic story and the officers involved.

Key points

A Father's Heartbreak. Mike Gatliff's life changes forever when he finds his daughter Heidi unresponsive.
The Mysterious Phone. Heidi's locked phone becomes a focal point in the investigation after her death.
Daniel's Troubling Texts. Daniel's threatening messages to his wife raise alarms about his mental state post-Heidi's death.
The Complex Web of Relationships. Heidi was involved with both Francisco and Daniel, raising questions about their dynamics.
Consequences for Officers. Francisco and Daniel face minimal repercussions for their actions related to Heidi.
The Toxic Triangle. Heidi is pressured to choose between two men, revealing a toxic dynamic.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It feels like the real thing.

Ashley talks about Heidi's excitement for ride-alongs.

6:03WatchDec 22, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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