Amber Alert ////// Part 2 | Forensic Files

n [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man offering some foreshadowing that we will have to
Circle back to ladies and gentlemen here is the captain I offer foreshadowing and
for skinning it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listen list in thanks for telling a
friend today we are still sipping on some angels perch Amber this is a deep mahogany colored American Amber with a
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[Music] all right Captain this is where things go from scary bad to even worse this is the point point of no
return unfortunately because 4 days later this was an expansive search for Amber Hagerman the this was an all
Hands-On deck situation we had not only the Arlington PD but all of the surrounding jurisdictions and law
enforcement agencies working looking for her as well this was a ribbons on trees
and ribbons on Street Lamp Post situation everybody praying and hoping for a safe return but those hopes would
be squashed because 4 days later after the abduction on January 17th this is in the early morning hours we have a man
who is out walking his dog near the Forest Hills Apartments which is a very large apartment complex in Arlington he
came across a gruesome site the this apartment complex Captain is only a few short miles from the abduction site so
it's roughly 3.2 miles from the abduction site where Amber was taken just four days prior and the body is
found in a stream and this is a large stream of water and the area had experienced some pretty extreme weather
leading up to this with heavy rainfall and downpours prior to the finding of this little girl
who you know how these situations go everyone hopes that it's not Amber even the police hoping that it's not Amber
but when you have an area with an abduction that took place so close in time so close in
proximity and you don't have a whole lot of missing people everything's telling you you probably just found the one
that's been missing the one that they were putting those ribbons on the lamp post and trees for the documentary Amber
the girl behind the alert is is very powerful to watch on many levels like we said there was a news crew that was
following around the family and following around Amber and Amber's mother about her her living situation
and getting her life on track basically well once Amber goes missing they decide
hey we're going to get involved we're going to share some of this footage we're going to
share pictures and videos and we're going to basically make it advertisement if you will hey here's a missing girl we
need to find her so they're filming all this stuff in real time and I I believe it was the
FBI had a a consultant that worked with the family so when there was information or there
was updates on what was going on with Amber's case that she was informing the the family so we have this girl found is
it Amber and you can see it in real time you you get to see the family they they
see the news clip is this Amber and then you have this consultant I guess is the
best way to what You' call her but she is waiting on word to let me know when to tell the family if this is Amber or
not Amber so it's a very tragic story I also think it's important to see because
sometimes we don't humanize these stories as much as they should be humanized and to see a family in the
moments you know when they hear the news report I'm sure most of them thought it's most like
her but you have to keep a positive outlook until you know until you know you don't know and I I don't know if you
what you felt about that that scene in the documentary but to me I thought that was just that gut-wrenching and and what
a horrible situation for a family to be in yes of course I shared all of those emotions trying to take the emotion out
of it one thing that I did find in sight about the documentary was this is a case
that I've read about for many years it's an old case and as far as I can see it looks like a Cold Case at this point
unfortunately but as much as I've read about this case over the years I had never seen the images whether it be a
picture or film of this Creek because everything I've ever read about this case captain always refers to this as a
creek or a stream but but because of the heavy downpour of rain and downfall of rain that they had leading up to finding
her that video footage shows what is called a creek or a stream it looks like a whitewater rafting Tri
type of situation to me like this was this water was much more significant than I had expected it was larger than I
had expected and The Waters at the time were quite rough and you hear there's so
the way that this 911 call goes down is this guy he goes out he's walking his dog in the early morning hours the dog
kind of leads him down to like almost alert him to the body the way that he describes it so he comes back home he
lives in this apartment complex he goes back to his apartment and he notifies I believe it's a girlfriend or wife says
call 911 I think I found that girl that's missing yeah and he goes I'm going back down
there because the creek the water is powerful it's moving man and he doesn't want he doesn't want that to get carried
Downstream okay and so he goes back down there one to point out the area to Personnel when they start to arrive but
also two to make sure that she's not carried away and so now you have the person that he lives with phoning 911
call in from looking out the window and explaining like no he yes he's going to stay with the body and he's not leaving
per what he told me he rushed back down there please hurry please hurry we think
we found that that missing girl and so to see the water was was pretty insightful to me because you look at
these things and trying to take the emotion out of it you want to learn more about the crime scene and we've we've
told the listeners this over the years in this situation we have a lot of crime scenes right we know that we have one
crime scene is the abduction site between the laundry mat and the old grocery store the old wind Dixie in that
parking lot which is about three miles away mind you not terribly far away another crime scene is the abductor
truck that he transport that he used to transport Amber Hagerman in his vehicle yeah the next crime scene is wherever
she was killed because she wasn't killed in this Creek in the stream of water she
was placed Dumping Ground yeah this this [ __ ] monster dumps this 9-year-old that he murdered naked she's wearing but
one sock when she's found these are the these are the people that when they get caught and something
bad happens to them whether it's in prison or by law enforcement or whatever you you don't feel too bad for him of
course absolutely not and so this person whoever discarded of this little girl you saw the way that it plays out in the
documentary this isn't like this Creek this stream is not right outside the doors of
this apartment complex and when I say apartment complex we're not the first ones to describe it as a very large
apartment complex you could see they had multiple buildings and even the detectives describe it as this is a very
large apartment complex which has both positive and negative values to your investigation as an investigator you're
hoping one could it be as simple as we find a truck that matches that vague description sitting in this parking lot
somewhere in this large apartment complex parking lot and we can tie truck owner who happens to live in this
apartment complex to where we found her body do you have the opportunity where maybe if the person doesn't live at that
apartment complex who committed this horrible crime is there a chance that somebody living there saw the individual
transporting the body to this location well this is to me more suggestive evidence we
have yes it's on the main road but the the side of this abandoned grocery store it's not something you think uh uh
somebody passing through town would just spot an individual and then we have eyewitness saying well the the
kidnapper went back into town and then so the kidnapping site isn't that far from the grandparents
house he went onto a main road and then like you were stating earlier this dump site isn't that far from the
grandparents house so to me this is all suggest that the individual this murderous piece
of [ __ ] person that should burn in hell most likely probably lives in that town
oh yeah I agree 100% with the with the thought that th this person lives in the area lives in the
area 100% now I will I'll agree and disagree with you in some regard the place where she was taken from I would
describe that and others have described it as far from an isolated area meaning that I do think that there's a good
chance that somebody just driving by did a snatch and grab and took off with this
little girl yeah where she's where I will agree with you 1000% man is where she was dumped no where where she was
placed whoever placed her body in that water knew about that water prior to they didn't just drive around looking
for a creek somewhere they had some prior knowledge of that spot well question for you because like you said
it's not just this Creek that's just water is just stagnant is The Dumping spot the apartment complex or is it
possibly further down and this is just where she ended it up and this is where somebody found her that's interesting to
ponder because of a couple reasons and and and the the reasons being that we are relying on other persons that we've
not spoke to with their opinions on the case people that were there that were there and have reviewed this crime scene
and the general thought it seems like the general consensus is that she was either a found exactly where she was
placed or B found very close to where she was placed into the water meaning she could have been Upstream a little
bit ways but they the way that they describe the turns of this body of water of this
stream which keep in mind it's proper to describe it as a streamer Creek because
it had simply swelled from all of this this downfall of water but the turns in the debris and rocks and sticks and
branches and trees that have fallen into this space they they believe the people
that were at the crime scene believe that she's was either placed very close to where she was found or if she was
placed Upstream it wasn't very far from where she was vent located but this to me goes back to something that we were
talking about before and even talking about something off mic and I'll let you if you let me go through my thought
first one thing we had talked about off Mike was and I agreee with you 100% everything at the abduction site and
based off of what the eyewitness statements are it's suggestive and indicative of a
stranger abduction now that doesn't mean that 1,00% it is a stranger abduction that's that's something we talked about
off Mike but what I'm kind of doubling down here on with my thoughts of it is a stranger
abduction is the abduction site the eyewitness statements are suggestive that it is a stranger abduction and then
when you compound that with what we later learn about where she is placed and and the statements of well she was
found very close to where she was placed that if if the water carrying the victim
away or concealing the victim you would do it in another manner than simply placing her in water this to me looked
like we have a snatch and grab abduction very quickly boom boom boom get out of there and same thing with the getting
rid of her is just simply I just need to I cannot be caught with with Amber in my possession in my home in my
vehicle where can I go where can I go oh I'll Place her there I don't really care
if the stream takes her away I don't really care to spend extra time and effort to try to bury her somewhere it's
more important for the kidnapper not to be seen yes than for her body to be washed
away right because the in the Killer's mind at during this whole time he's only concerned with his major
concern is don't be seen with her my only connection to her right now would be for me to be seen with Amber dead or
alive right but the things that make this so from an investigator standpoint the the things that make this case
difficult to review beyond the emotional stressors that come with reviewing a case that's this horrific and this scary
to talk about is the we have this kind of weird Confluence of information about the evidence right that it's all over
the shop on her injuries and her let's say degree of sexual assault which is a sentence that I had hoped I would never
have to ever put together but unfortunately we just did it's our fault we chose to do a true crime podcast so I
blame I blame us for this one yes it it is on our shoulders my friend the but Amber had been killed elsewhere as we
said the she died from several cut wounds to her neck the thing that's troubling about that is that there's not
great detail on that information which I don't know that we would be comfortable
delivering anyway to the listeners but but it it doesn't give us any level to me any way any level of understanding
about the the killer themselves and then the the reports that made their way to the papers and to the internet
eventually on this case would be that she was sexually assaulted repeatedly some statements are some statements is
she was sexually assaulted repeatedly that just stopped short of intercourse and then in the documentary
nobody it seems like they're they're a little cage about having a definitive opinion on the sexual assault or rape of
the victim because what what they're telling us and they being the current detectives working the case or
detectives that are second generation detectives let's say persons that inherited the case a couple years after
what they're all kind of saying is that they they're not convinced that an actual maybe true to definition sexual
assault or rape took place but that there was certainly a sexual component to the Abduction of murder yeah I wonder
if there was some kind of like you know digital molestation it's hard to say I think all
the evidence points to this idea that it's a stranger and that the person's local but I think where the cops did a
good job and it's so frustrating this case it's one of those cases where you go oh well yeah Amber she's the reason
why we have the Amber Alert it's like you've heard of this case for so many years and then to dive into the research
there's so many fascinating points and I think one of the fascinating points is why the hell is it a cold case because I
think law enforcement did a good job instead of putting blinders on and going look the evidence is telling us it's
most likely a stranger and most likely a local that didn't stop law enforcement from interviewing and questioning and
looking and having some suspicious um eyes when it came to family members and friends and even
looking at possible outside of the city suspects I think they did a good job of of trying to uh uncover you know lift up
every stone and and and and look in every direction and dive down every Rabbit Hole you're exactly right I think
they did the best job that they could but you know we say why is this a cold case and I think that to go to the
negative of something right we were talking earlier about this large apartment complex where she's found near
there's positive for your investigation and there's a negative to it the negative is that if those two positives
don't pan out for you remember maybe we find the guy's truck here that it's as simple as the guy lives here or if we
can't get this suspect having been in this area living in this area at the time of the crime maybe we
can find somebody that saw him coming or going from this area now we have a second or third or fourth eyewitness
that's your positive that's your what you're hoping for when you figure out oh we found this poor girl and this is
where we found her and this large this large apartment complex the negative for your investigation is now you're stuck
there canvasing this area because you have to it would be irresponsible and frankly just down right dumb not to but
if either of those positives don't pan out for your investigation now you've spent all this time in this compressed
area right and not out chasing down other leads can can you give me this answer I I don't know I don't know it
off the top of my head she's kidnapped on a Saturday what day is her body found so she's kidnapped on what would be
Saturday the 13th and I so glad that you Circle back to this my friend she's found 4 days later on the 17th now we
have a situation here where the medical examiner comes out and says these are the wounds there's some kind of sexual
assault here and uh some reports state that she was beaten as well that the and but there are other reports that
state that that there was no bruising that was found from postmortem from when she was in the water so those bruises
they have determined they came prior to her death so we had we're armed with that information but the medical
examiner comes out and says found on the 17th we believe she was kept for a couple days so she would have been
killed sometime on the 15th maybe even on the 16th and we believe that she was in that water for 12 to about 24 hours
why is that important that is important because of this we started off the show talking about important dates important
days Days of the Week dates where it falls on the calendar and if you look at the calendar for 1996 she's abducted on
a Saturday afternoon approximately 300 p.m. if the medical examiner is right and we have no reason to believe that
they are not that she was kept alive for a couple of days before she was killed on the 15th or 16th and then placed in
the water well the 14th is a Sunday the 15th is a holiday a national holiday for most people at most
occupations that's Martin Luther King Jr Day MLK Day Some people have jobs where
they don't go to work on MLK day and when you look at that timeline I look at at at it as simple as this if this
killer had the ability to keep her somewhere that means he very like either lives alone or has a space to
himself for a period of time yeah no and I look I'm going to go I think unfortunately I think he killed her
because he had to go back to work and couldn't keep her while he couldn't supervise and oversee the situation yeah
I'm going to throw this out there serial killer because what have we seen in so many of these serial killers this this
is a family man I believe truck it was a new her truck it was clean and we've seen this so many times where these Sero
killers they go oh well my uh wife and kids are going to go visit her family I'll come up with the excuse of why I
can't go and then I can Comm I commit whatever crime and and whether it's a basement or it's a shed or some place
that if somebody does come back I can hide her in this facility this Kill Zone facility if you will
until I can then dispose of her and that would make a lot of sense wife and kids
go out of town for the weekend they're going to come back on Monday night or Tuesday morning and I'm going to have to
go to work so I'm going to have to get this all done within this time frame we got a lot more to get to right after
this quick beer break [Music] all right we are back thanks for telling your mother thanks for telling your
brother talk hands in the air cheers to the people in the back cheers to you Colonel cheers to the people
upstairs how did they get there we don't know no all right cheers you there's a very small ladder these cases that go
decades where it seems like law enforcement has done a good job one of the things that is involved
in so many of these cases that we don't have answers for is victims that are found in water well it's troubling I
because here's the problem there are a lot of victims out there that are buried that are never
recovered true and then you have a situation like this where look we're looking for the killer there's other
problems with your investigation there's there's killers of your investigation time is a killer in your
investigation and here the water is the killer of your evidence and I think that
that is why we get such an inconclusive statements so many inconclusive statements and almost
confusing statements regarding SE ual assault with the victim here because I think that the water and the situation
remember I described it as a white water rafting type of situation I think that that Rushing Water did a lot to destroy
evidence and maybe some of that evidence is gone forever I hope and pray not technology gets better every single
day and so I think that that is something that has worked in the favor of the Killer and then we don't have
anybody at that apartment complex saying that they saw this person come in and and place the body or we don't have a
better description of the vehicle and and not just a I'm not faulting our eyewitness for not giving us a better
description of the vehicle what I what I mean by that is we don't have another person coming forward with the same
description of the vehicle saying I saw this vehicle here and this is what the person driving it look like we would
want to know the movements of that vehicle look I'm just I'm just a guy in a garage here but if I don't care how
many ladder I don't care how many black pickup trucks are out there in the area I think this guy could still be very
local and I also think that it could be just as simple as he parked the truck in
the garage in his garage for a period of time that he had this poor victim and you can drive around all day and night
we know that they've done that in plenty of cases I there's a case uh from Virginia a case from Pennsylvania that
we've talked about where they they had a great eyewitness descriptions of the vehicle the suspect vehicle that they
were looking for vehicles that had body damage to them which makes them unique but they couldn't find them they never
found them because every time that they were driving in the neighborhood of the killer that they later identified and
arrested and convicted we learned that simply he parked it in his garage it wasn't parked on the street or in the
driveway during the time that they were out in masses looking for that vehicle now we talked off Mike
here Captain about how how much this case disturbs us but equally there even with as little
information as there is out there because there's just we just don't have additional Witnesses we just don't have
additional evidence there's something about this case and I can't put my finger on it but
it's a powerful case and it's one it's a great ring case it's one that that has gotten a hold of me and I know it's
gotten a hold of you recently too and it's like we're just trying to find a road map to more information and and to
lead us to something now I will say there were good good suspects that they did investigate over the their years and
and the police as you pointed out APD put together a task force and and did a good job in a thorough job and continue
to work this case very diligently to this very day the task force for my understanding disbanded in 1999 so it
was together for a good deal of time and during that time they looked at uh other
offenders and they did the old pervert Roundup early on in the investigation as they should it would be strange not to I
wanted to seek out the experience from experts persons that had worked similar cases so people that not
are not necessarily talking specifically about Amber hagerman's case but are talking about cases that have a lot of
similarities here is what I was able to come up with here captain and this is from Ken Lanning Ken Lanning who is he
he is an individual that worked with a lot of the first generation M hunters for the FBI the captain referenced an
FBI Personnel coming into this investigation early on and one person in particular working almost hand inand
with the family over the course of of several days if not weeks and one thing we do know based off because we had that
eyewitness statement of this being an abduction and the description that was provided by the eyewitness of that
abduction Texas called in the FBI serial killer child abduction unit they were brought in and spent many days in
Arlington Texas working this case so I wanted to seek out some experts opinions on similar cases and Ken Anning we
recommended his book a while back it is I'm going to get this wrong I should have put it in my notes it was uh well
it's one of get things wrong I man I tell you the the title of the book is love bombs and child
molesters and I know that that seems like that's a very strange title but it's a very good book yeah but the
problem with a title like that that's not a book that you want to pick up at the bookstore and take it to the
checkout no and that's my only problem with the title the thing is I don't think that Ken Lanning his goal was to I
don't think his goal was to sell any books and I don't think that he was trying to set up a situation where he
wouldn't sell any books but if you read the book you understand right away why it is called that because it's he he's a
former FBI agent who worked a lot of child molester child abduction cases and he worked a lot of bombing cases and
he's a a man who very much loves his wife and loves his children and his grandchildren so the
book is about the three things that he knows the most about and so Ken Lanning he describes the four phases of
abduction for the offender for a similar type offender and he says those four phases are one buildup two abduction
three post abduction and four for the recovery SLR phase in the buildup the subject engages in fantasy that creates
some need for sexual activity although it may not start out child oriented he validates and rationalizes his Fantasy
by talking to others who share or encourage it or by looking at pornographic material that fuels it
there could be a precipitating stress that prompts the subject to act on his fantasies and then either an opportunity
presents itself or the offender plans and creates one when the subject is ready to carry out the abduction victim
selection becomes key so those are the four phases according to an expert Ken Lanning and then let's take that a step
further here I was looking at some of Douglas's cases John Douglas's cases he's mentioned this in several cases and
I found it to be intriguing because it really mirrors some of the little known details that we have in Amber's
case and Douglas says when we see this type of crime so what he's talking about is a
crime where a snatch and grab abduction stranger abduction stranger abduction in Broad
day light in an area that people would not refer to as isolated where there could
be eyewitnesses Douglas says when we see this type of crime the first thing we think of is a somewhat younger
unsophisticated perhaps disorganized offender with a highly developed sexual fantasy that he is increasingly
desperate to act out when we see a high-risk crime we expect the victim to be kept alive for a relatively longer
period of time meaning in unfortunately in most cases where a woman is abducted raped and
murdered it all happens relatively quickly it happens within 45 minutes an hour 2 hours 3
hours it doesn't take a lot of time for those horrific nightmare situations to play out Amber situation and we know
this based off of the medical examiner she's abducted in broad daylight it's a high high risk factor
and the me says that she was kept alive for a couple of days this doesn't tell us this doesn't tell these things don't
tell us who the Killer is but these things tell us who the killer about tell us some things about the Killer and
there was some individuals close to the family and members of the family that law enforcement had to look into
obviously you have this separation of the parents so you have to then go well where was the dad what was his
involvement they they figured out his whereabouts so he wouldn't have been even in the area and then you have to
start looking at maybe friends of his because we do have a separation we don't have him with any set of uh custody set
up through through the courts so you have to look at that angle there's some people that
maybe looks wise and I don't think you should judge every book by its cover but there are a bunch of individuals that
were close to the family that law enforcement looked into I don't know if they ruled them out
publicly I believe they did with the father because he had a pretty solid alibi but I but I also think even if you're a
person that law enforcement looked at you could understand why they're not going to rule
out some individuals publicly well some of the people that they did they they've
actually the task force have ruled out I I don't know if I would say a considerable number of people over the
years but we do know that they have ruled out some very bad people but they've also ruled out some people that
were not very bad people close to the investigation okay so with the father's situation you're exactly right Captain
it's my understanding that he was either at work or with several other people at
the time of the abduction and also this is not a location that was particularly close to the site of the abduction so it
would be even if those persons are off by 30 minutes or an hour on their time frame he couldn't have made it there in
time to do what he did the other thing that complicates things too is your suspect changes after you find your body
why because in most abductions the sexual assault and murder take place very quickly here that's not the
situation the medical examiner tells you within 24 hours or so of finding the body that she was alive for for days
into the abduction days after the abduction so dad who is sitting with Mom and consoling her and crying on camera
during those days that Amber was alive doesn't make for a good suspect now that you found the body his friend or family
members or sorry friends that were close to family members also being present during the time searching for Amber do
not make for good suspects now because of what we know somebody had the ability to keep her and
unfortunately they damn it I hatte saying these things out loud she wasn't just kept in a Cellar somewhere yeah in
the dark somebody was doing stuff to her during the course of that time somebody
had to be physically present with her during that time period and the people that were helping look for her and the
people that especially were on camera consoling the family and being there for the family aren't good suspects because
their whereabouts even if they're not accounted for for the 8 minutes when she disappeared their whereabouts are
accounted for for those two days that somebody some monster kept her for yeah but the the monster wouldn't have to be
present the whole time but but it not the whole time but it gets but he can't harm her when he's not there exactly he
can't live out whatever sick fantasy he has and that and that's what's weird I the more cases we do especially when the
victim is a child it's like I don't I don't always think eye for an eye is the the right way to look at things and life
but for some reason when it comes to cases where there the victim is a child I don't even just want to eye for an eye
I want like Oh eye for every piece of your body because you deserve whatever you did to the victim you it should be
done to you 10 times over especially when it comes to Children th this case is so frustrating
because we do have a like you said a solid eyewitness but could you imagine imagine
being a close family friend and you show up to just help Amber's gone somebody took her okay I'm I'm on my way and then
you get there and they say oh well we have eyewitness and uh and um got a good look at the guy didn't get a license
plate but he had a single cab small bed black truck and you're you're the family
friend with a single cab small bed black truck that would be uh a little bit of a
uncomfortable situation to be in and he did allow law enforcement to process his
truck uh we should point out that one thing that is missing from the eyewitness account when we look at this
family friend's vehicle he drove his truck for work and so on the side of his truck I'm sure you
noticed this during the documentary they showed his truck yeah on camera on the side of his truck what was on the side
of his truck a big advertisement for his company right and what we don't have in
the eyewitness statement is oh yeah I saw a company name plastered on the side of the V of the truck well like you said
I think the eyewitness got a good look at at the side of the truck here's what I always wondered because if it is a
stranger on Stranger crime if the kidnapper if this monster of a person is local is it possible that this V vehicle
was a work vehicle and not a daily driver for them meaning like I said this guy maybe he has a family maybe they're
out for the holiday weekend to visit other other family members and he comes up with a a ruse of why he has to stay
back but that his family and other individuals never suspected him when people hear a single cab small bed black
truck they're not put in two and two together because this is not a daily vehicle for that individual well with
this case you know I already referenced some information from John Douglas and from Ken Lanning two of the top cops two
of the top experts in this field and and what we're talking about here today but
really that was reviewing information that they've given out and thoughts and opinions from their experience on cases
that are very similar to the Amber Hagerman case not her case specifically so I took that a step further Captain
what I did was I reached out to Jeffrey rck former FBI agent who has was involved in solving several big
high-profile cases in fact he's put away at least one serial killer a couple that
that we're aware of and he unfortunately and I say this because I know that it has had a very
big impact on him emotionally and as a person that he had the unfortunate task of working a lot of child abduction and
child murder cases and so he's seen both a lot of stranger abduction cases and also cases where the victim knew the
perpetrator and so I reached out to him and I said look I just want to get some of your opinions on this case and let
I'll go through through some of our correspondents here regarding Amber's case and I I described the crime to him
and I said Amber was out riding her bike with her little brother she was nine her
brother was just five of course they rode off to a spot where they were not supposed to go but not too far from the
route they typically were allowed to travel which is basically a big circle back to Grandma and Grandpa's house the
boy decided to go home instead of playing longer at the parking lot that they had ventured off to it was a large
parking lot with three freestanding businesses an auto shop a laundry mat and a grocery store that had been closed
in out of business Amber was riding up and down the ramp that went into the back of the grocery store this area was
visible to some homes that the Lots backed up to Amber's grandparents neighborhood a man in a dark pickup
truck pulled in and took the little girl leaving the bike behind she was found 4
days later in a large Creek near a very large apartment complex her throat was cut the apartment complex was in North
Arlington the abduction site was East Arlington distance about 3 miles the medical examiner said that she was kept
alive for a couple of days I was curious if you would offer up any insights about
the offender based on the general information about this crime she was only gone from the house for 8 minutes
the kids and their mother were visiting the grandparents house this to me suggest a stranger abduction it occurred
during broad daylight and was witnessed by an old man in the neighborhood who called 911 he reported an abduction
because she screamed she was grabbed not lured into the truck the auto shop the laundry mat both had customers that day
I think the time of day the short distance between the abduction site and the creek along with the seemingly
randomness of the vulnerable little victim could tell us a lot about the Killer to which Mr rck responded that he
was going to take some time to look into some of the logistics and the postmortem
about the case and I had told him that I was reaching out to him because the case
was bothering me more than normal and so he asked me can you tell me what bothers
you about the case and any Theory or conclusions you are hoping to address to which my response here Captain is it's
difficult to put into words but the seemingly Randomness and impulsivity of the abduction is what is nagging at me
compounded with her being kept and the disposed of where and when she was she was grabbed in the early afternoon in
broad daylight in a location that was far from isolated the perpetrator may not have even had a weapon it just keeps
running through my mind that some guy was driving home from the bar sees the girl and acts the desirability due to
her age may not have been there for him but rather the vulnerability of the young victim alone that encourages him
to strike but the risk level is significant so much so that he is spotted in the ACT he keeps her for a
couple of days must live alone and then places her in the creek at a spot where he feels comfortable that he will not be
seen disposing her of he already knows that he was seen once he can't risk it again it's not a quick walk you've seen
it Captain it's not a quick walk from the parking lot to the creek it's not as simple as just backing up your truck
I've seen it suggested th this is the insightful part here I've seen it suggested that the knife SL throat cut
may be indicative of a lack of control or Panic the thinking is that Suffocation or strangulation would
exhibit more control over the victim but I told Mr rck I said could he have simply killed the victim due to his
lifestyle she was taken on the 13th Saturday the 13th and I go on to tell Mr rck I looked up MLK Day for 1996 it's
Monday the 15th it's believed that her death was approximate her approximate death was sometime on January 15th he
couldn't keep her any longer as he had to go back to work she's found on the 17th so they could be somewhat off on
the time of death so then if that's the case the knife the use of the knife in cutting her throat is not a lack of
control I said I figure it's a younger man mid 20s with a job that does that does not require a lot of interaction
with others but afforded him a day off on Martin Luther King Day who lived or worked at the apartment complex at one
time but not at the time of the murder as they were looking for a black truck although of course a lot of trucks are
in Texas he likely works with his hands probably carries a knife or box cutter at work lived alone at the time and had
a small Social Circle probably did not grow up in Arlington and likely moved after when things settled down and when
things were convenient but not in a rush this would be months afterwards without
taking up too much more of your time am I way off of Base here to which Mr rck tells us he thinks that
the way that the injuries with her having several injuries to the neck as described from the information he
reviewed keep in mind he's not reviewed the body he's not reviewed the actual autopsy this is information that is
available to all of us right but again he is an expert in this very dark world that we're talking
about he's saying that he believes that the injuries are suggestive that it's not a
firsttime offender and I want to be clear on what he's saying here he's without going through his entire email
he's telling me Captain that he doesn't believe that this he's not saying that this is not the first time that this guy
has murdered right he's not saying this is the second murder or third murder he's saying he believes that this person
has offended before meaning sexually assaulted a child raped a woman abducted a kid something of that nature prior to
this murder but has never murdered before and he's saying that he believes that Amber was murdered because this guy has
he's either on the radar or has been scared to the point where he thought he would be arrested for prior crimes or
was actually arrested for a prior crime that did not involve murder so it's it's
interesting to hear somebody with that level of expertise say that it because it's a fine line of what Mr rck is
saying that the murder was done to cover up the crimes of abduction and sexual assault he didn't want to
leave a witness alive he didn't want to leave the victim alive because the victim could potentially identify
him he's saying that the the way that the wounds are described in the new newspapers and on
the internet show that he may not have done this before that being the murder part which
that gives us if that is true then now you've really shrunk your suspect pool you're looking for somebody that has
committed similar crimes without a murder that they've I either been caught for or not caught but I would be looking
for somebody that was interviewed questioned suspected of and They carried out the murder to cover up the crimes
all right Captain let me read directly from some of Mr Rik statements to me he says quote I believe this is not a
firsttime offender because many times a firsttime offender will not murder the victim who is also the best
witness additionally I believe from experience that if the wounds were the cause of death they were not efficient
and the offender might not have been certain if he affected death which could indicate a lack of experience in causing
death he goes on to say that it's unfortunate that we don't have better information about these wounds and he is
hoping that this information was shared in detail with the task force members at
the time he wants to be clear that he is he says I would have to conclude that anything I offer has no value other than
General suggestions such as I offer in this email because he's not seeing this information for himself he's
not working the case himself but he goes on to say I was saddened to see an offender has not been identified or
suspected in considering the progress of forensic science I hope this makes sense
I can understand why this would bother you because it bothers me and reminds me of my experiences so I want to make sure
that we think Mr rck for taking the time to answer some of my questions on this case and allowing me to disrupt his
daily life with a couple of out of the blue questions about a very haunting and a very sad case this
is one of those cases captain that has remained in the news it's a big case for all of Texas it
really is you could tell watching the docu mentary you can tell that the with the sad reminder of the anniversary that
comes up every year of when this little girl was abducted when she was later found and
they've still not resolved this case but it does lead to the creation of the Amber Alert which has been a tool it's
been a a warning it's been a way to try to bring kids home to get kids returned safely and to
even beyond that identify the suspect or perpetrator of the actual abduction and
and take them to justice I will say this I did review at least one article and I
won't name the authors of that article that they went on this long report of How It's not ever truly been proven that
the Amber Alert has is directly responsible for saving lives or that the Amber Alert is directly responsible for
bringing kids home or identifying abductors I don't want to say their names because look understanding crime
statistics understanding crime Trends is very important to communities and it's necessary for keeping people safe so
them discussing the outcome of this fine I think it's in very poor taste though who gives a [ __ ] why even question it
there is no way to prove there's no numbers you can't prove because there's truth in what they're
saying here Captain because an amber alert went out throughout the community oh it scared the perpetrator and he
decided not to kill the victim and let him go right I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you can find a perpetrator
that was later arrested that ends up telling police yeah I got scared I heard the Amber Alert go off I it's it was on
the news I got scared I decided I got got to get rid of this victim that that that I've taken I
got to let him or her go I'm sure that if you dig deep enough you could actually find someone so maybe shame on
them for not finding that particular case because we're not talking about 10 cases we're not talking about 100 cases
we're talking about thousands of cases so it'd be difficult to research for your article but I say who gives a
[ __ ] because can you can we really prove that a tornado warning has saved a life
one single life we can't there's no it's very difficult to prove that so so what should we get rid of
tornado warnings because we can't prove that it's saved a life no you don't same
with the Amber Alert you don't get rid of it because you can't prove that it brought a child home you can't prove
with an absolute that it saved a child's life that doesn't mean you get rid of it
they weren't saying to get rid of it but I say why even question it this is another tool this is
another it's a warning man it's it's what we have and and I say this to everybody out there that if if you're
like the authors that question the impact of the Amber Alert then I say this to you if your child went missing wouldn't
you want them to do everything in their power that they possibly could to find your child the answer is going to be yes
every single time so this is important this case is important and unfortunately for Amber and for the person's closest
to her and I hope that this case gets solved and solved very very soon I think that there's reason to stay positive
about this case the light is still on there's still a chance that they saw this case from everything I've seen
they're working this case very hard and regardless if it gets solved or doesn't get solved this is a big powerful
impactful case and that's why and because of her mother and because of the efforts of the
people that knew this little girl and knew the family and we're a part of that family that we have this powerful tool
to this day the amber alert and in my opinion it absolutely has saved [Music] lives want to thank everybody for
joining us here in the garage each and every week thanks for telling your friends Colonel do we have any
recommended reading for the beautiful listeners of course Captain we have to be recommending Jeffrey rik's book in
the name of the children and FBI agents Relentless pursuit of the nation's worst
Predators we were lucky enough to have Mr rck on as a guest years ago to talk about some of the cases that he worked
over his career as an FBI agent this is a FBI special agent who had a gift for getting child predators to confess to
their crimes to do that he had to share a piece of his soul and I told you earlier about the emotional toll that
this took on him and how could it not he's a human being this just telling these stories just listening to these
stories does take a bit of a toll on you and all of us but this guy has done some
incredible work the book is one of the best true crime books that I've ever read and he's someone that I would I
would hope someday that his name will be up there with the Roy Hazel woods with the Robert wrestlers the John Douglas's
the Anne Burgesses because he is of that elk he has worked these cases and his experience is something that we can all
learn from and that I think that law enforcement agencies out there around the country could learn a lot from so
make sure you check out if you haven't already because this is not the first time we've recommended Mr reck's book I
believe it's time number three but it is one of of the best true crime books out
there in the name of the children and FBI agents Relentless pursuit of the nation's worst Predators by Jeffrey rck
you can find that great suggestion which is available Kindle audiobook and paperback you can find that suggestion
as well as many other recommendations on our recommended page at true Crim garage.com until next week be good be
kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Amber Alert ////// Part 2

Episode: 814

Amber Alert: The Unsolved Case of Amber Hagerman

Part 2 of 2

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January 13, 1996 - 9 year old Amber Hagerman was taken off of her pink bicycle and we are still looking for her killer. A still unidentified man snatched Amber off of her bike in broad daylight in a public area. Sadly her body was found 4 days later in a location nearby. Today we have the Amber Alert, an emergency broadcast alert system aimed at saving lives and bringing children home. If you have any information about Amber’s case please contact the Arlington Police Department Detectives at 1-817-274-4444 or remain anonymous and contact crime stoppers of Tarrant County at 1-817-469-TIPS (8477). If you would like to help to bring more kids home - consider donating to the True Crime Garage / National Center for Missing and Exploited Children campaign by typing True Crime Garage NCMEC into your search engine browser.

Beer of the Week - Angel’s Perch Amber by Sockeye Brewing Garage Grade - 3 and 3 quarter bottle caps

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Brief Summary

Amber Hagerman's abduction and murder led to the creation of the Amber Alert system, highlighting community and investigative challenges.

Key points

The Search for Amber Hagerman. An expansive search effort for Amber Hagerman begins, but hopes quickly fade.
Gruesome Discovery. Four days after Amber's abduction, a man finds a body in a stream.
The Tragic Reality. The discovery of the body brings a heartbreaking realization to the family.
The Investigation's Challenges. Investigators face difficulties due to the nature of the crime scene and evidence.
The Cold Case Mystery. Despite thorough investigations, Amber's case remains unsolved, raising questions about the evidence.
The Killer's Alibi. The discussion reveals the killer's potential alibi and the implications of his family life.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's a very tragic story.

Describing the emotional weight of the case.

6:42WatchJan 15, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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