39 Shots | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

Nelson Johnson: The first time that I encountered the Klan, we were at a restaurant in Greensboro called the Apa Cellar,
and the Klan actually formed a line outside on both sides of the street in their uniform.
And in that place, we were not only interracial, we were men and women. There were white women
there, Black women, Black men, white women. We were sitting at a table, and people came and took
the soda I was drinking and poured it in my lap. Phoebe Judge: This was in the mid 1960s. Nelson
Johnson had just returned from four years in the Air Force and was enrolled at North
Carolina A&T State University. Nelson Johnson: So that was my first encounter with the Klan within the context of seeking to have a meal,
but conscious that we were integrating a place where that was not permissible. [Meditative, plunking music.] Phoebe Judge: As a student, he formed the
Greensboro Association of Poor People and quickly became a respected civil rights leader. In the
late '70s, he worked to build up unions in North Carolina's textile factories and was
joined by activists from all over the country. Their strategy was to get hired by a factory
and then organize its workers from the inside. Signe Waller-Foxworth: That was a trend in the
protest culture, to leave the nice, lucrative career that you had or were going to have and
go to work in doing some kind of manual blue collar work, be organizing people, work in the
community, or in the factories, or both. Phoebe Judge: Signe Waller-Foxworth and her
husband, Jim Waller, were two of the activists working alongside Nelson Johnson. Jim Waller had been an infectious disease doctor and Signe taught philosophy,
but they left those jobs behind. Signe Waller-Foxworth: We were after a real democracy. We also thought that capitalism was really evil and we would have to get to an order
of society where people contributed what they're able to, and they received what they needed.
You know, this slogan, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs."
That money would not be the deciding factor in whether people had a good life and could have
an education and healthcare and all of that. Phoebe Judge: All three were affiliated with a
national labor group called the Workers Viewpoint Organization. They'd later changed the name to the Communist Workers' Party, or CWP. And in the summer of 1979,
the CWP set its sights on the KKK. Nelson Johnson: The Klan had passed out leaflets saying that all of this stuff about building a union was just a way
for Black people to get in charge of white people, all of which was building up white
resentment against the organizing that we were doing. So we saw an article in the newspaper
about the showing of a movie, Birth of a Nation. Phoebe Judge: The Birth of a Nation is a silent
film from 1915 that portrays, in the most grandiose way, the heroic rise of the KKK.
Signe Waller and Nelson Johnson decided to drive to the tiny town of China Grove,
where it was screening, and protest. Nelson Johnson: It was a library, it's just a small building, and the Klan had
rifles on a tripod, and they had the Confederate flag, and we chanted and walked up on them and
burned the Confederate flag. Signe Waller-Foxworth: Some of us had some weapons, some of us picked up rocks or whatever to use if we needed a weapon
to defend ourselves. And mainly, it was a lot of shouting, but it was so tense, it was — the
tension in the air was really palpable. Phoebe Judge: By some accounts, there were more than a hundred protesters crowding around the small building and
shouting. The Klansmen ushered women and children inside, barricaded the doors,
and then stood on the porch, pointing their guns at the crowd. The few policemen there
pleaded with the Klansmen to stand down before something happened. Eventually they
did. And the confrontation was over. Signe Waller-Foxworth: The fact that that did not erupt in violence was something people found amazing. We celebrated it as a victory,
which was foolhardy of us. Phoebe Judge: Later that night, one of the Klansmen told a news camera, "There will be revenge for this."
[Melancholy piano music.] In the months that followed the CWP talked up, the China Grove standoff, claiming they'd chased off the "scum
Klansmen." They worked on new and bigger ways to protest the Klan, and they wanted something
in a city, more people, more visibility. So they planned a demonstration in Greensboro,
a march through the city's housing projects. Nelson Johnson: We wanted to have a conference
between white workers and Black workers and community members to discuss the Klan
and racism and how that should be dealt with. Signe Waller-Foxworth: We invited all the workers,
some of the mills who were working, and we were going to talk about, what does the Klan do? What are we trying to do? We're trying to build a strong union and
give them updates on the union activity that existed and get them clear about what the
Klan's role is. White and Black. Make a unity, Black and white. We always stressed that
Phoebe Judge: They set a date: November 3rd, 1979. And they printed up posters to advertise.
Right at the top, in all capital letters, the words, "Death to the Klan." And underneath that,
"Anti-Klan march and conference." They put them all over the city of Greensboro.
In the days that followed, someone else drove around and pasted a different poster right on top.
It was the image of a man hanging by a noose and a warning, "To the traitors, communists,
race mixers, and black rioters. Even now, the crosshairs are on the back of your necks."
I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. [Tense, melancholy music.] Nelson Johnson: I thought about it and made the suggestion that, "Let's march to the site where we're going to have
the conference." And the starting point was Morningside Homes, where a lot of people who
live there worked in the textile mill, and we were going to be singing songs and passing out
flyers and inviting the community to join the march. So if you start with about 150 people,
you end with about 500 at the conference site. Phoebe Judge: The night before the march,
on November 2nd, the group met at Jim and Signe Waller's house for a planning meeting.
Nelson Johnson: And part of the decision we had to make was whether we would have
any kind of capacity to defend ourselves. Phoebe Judge: Nelson Johnson had applied for a
parade permit. He'd gone down to the sheriff's office and submitted the entire march route to
the police. He was granted the permit on two conditions. First, they could carry signs,
but the signposts couldn't be bigger than two feet tall. And second, no weapons.
Nelson Johnson: Well, there was a man from South Carolina. He was the elder among us. By standards
of my age now, he was pretty young. He was in his 40s. And he said that he had seen a person
drug through the streets in South Carolina, and that he thought that we should prepare
to defend ourselves if we were going to march. His name was Big Man. That's what we called him.
And I heard him and I took exception to it because I said, "I don't know of any history
where you have the police there, it's in the middle of the day, it's in a Black community,
where Klan just ride in at high noon and overwhelm the police and the community." I said, "That isn't
how they roll. They come in on defenseless people at night, dragging people out of the
house. That's the history that I know." Phoebe Judge: By the end of the meeting,
they decided that they would bring a few weapons and keep them close by in a truck.
The CWP had advertised the rally in pretty violent terms. One of their posters said that the KKK
"should be physically beaten and chased out of town. This is the only language they understand."
Another said, "What made a difference in China Grove was the mighty force of the militant armed
and organized fighters." Nelson Johnson: I remember it was a very foggy morning and I was concerned about the weather.
Phoebe Judge: On the day of the rally, November 3rd, Nelson Johnson went over to Signe and
Jim Waller's house for breakfast. Nelson Johnson: But after a while, the fog burned off and it turned out to be a beautiful fall day, very crisp, very clear.
And we talked a little bit about the plans, and the truck and the drummers and the singers were all in place. We were going to have children marching
at the front of the march. It was going to be festive, the march was going to be festive.
Phoebe Judge: Can I break in for one — I just want to break in for one second. You felt like it was okay to have children there, even though there was some risk of a scuffle? You
thought that the risk was low enough that you would be able to protect the children, or XYZ?
Nelson Johnson: I thought the scuffle was going to be with the police. And I had two daughters,
they were both there. I never would have brought my children there under some circumstances
that I thought were threatening. [Piano music building tension.] Signe Waller-Foxworth: We left the house early that morning, and I had my assignment,
was to sell Workers Viewpoint newspapers and hand out leaflets. And I was doing that and singing.
We were singing freedom songs there. And I had a big smile because I was looking forward to
the day. It was going to be a good day. I was looking forward to the farm downtown and then
going out to dinner with my husband that night it was going to be a good day. [Audio from the march
of people singing and clapping.] Phoebe Judge: There were four camera crews already on the scene, but no police. At 11:23 a.m.,
a caravan of nine vehicles drove in. Nelson Johnson: There was a car coming down the street with a Confederate flag on it. And there was a pickup truck.
And the pickup truck was in the front of the march. And there was a young man, and there was a chant going on about ... he yelled out of the window of the front truck,
something to the effect that, "You asked for us, you got us." And he used a derogatory word for Jewish people and cursed. And I knew at that point that
these were not people coming to march with us. Signe Waller-Foxworth: There were shouts going
back and forth. The Klan was screaming racial epithets. And there were slogans and screams
going back and forth. So that's what it was. Archival Audio: Death to the Klan! Death to the
Klan! Death to the Klan! Death to the Klan! Death to the Klan! Death to the Klan! Death
to the Klan! Phoebe Judge: We're hearing the audio from that day. Signe Waller-Foxworth:
One of the demonstrators had a picket stick and hit one of the Klan cars as it was going by.
Nelson Johnson: Somebody in our group hit one of the Klan cars. It was the back fender,
had one of the posters and hit it with a poster. And it was just then that the person in the lead vehicle put his body out of the window — he was almost sitting
on the window seal of the truck — and fired a shot in the air at about a 45 degree angle.
[Audio from the march of frenetic activity.] Phoebe Judge: In the video, you can see people, including Signe's husband,
Jim Waller, run to a truck to get guns. Nelson Johnson: A man was rushing toward
me with what looks like a butcher knife, a long knife. And actually he was trying to stab me in
my abdomen. He dropped low and somebody threw me a stick, which was where one of the posters
was going to be attached to it. I grabbed it and the shooting started, but I was somewhat
not tuned into the shooting. And the knife went through my arm. And we squared off again. And
just, almost on cue, they all got in their vehicles. At this time, I hear more shots.
[Audio from the march of gunshots.] Signe Waller-Foxworth: When I heard the shots, my son was with me, not my daughter. I have a son and a daughter.
My son was 11 years old. And the only thing I thought about was, I heard the gunshots and I
saw him and he started running to try to find some safety with all the kids. People were running back
away from the front, where the gunshots were coming from. And instinctively, I just ran
after him because I wanted to be in back of him to protect him, trying to get him to safety.
Phoebe Judge: She later learned that her husband Jim had been able to get a rifle from the truck,
but it was almost immediately taken away by a Klansman. And so Jim Waller started running away, and was shot in the back. The shot was so powerful,
it propelled his body forward through the air. Signe Waller-Foxworth: This may sound like it
couldn't possibly be true, but I did not even then think about people being killed. I had
never been in a war. I had never been in a battle with guns. And if I had any image in
my mind at all, it was that people had shot their guns over people's heads. And I was just going to go back and see Jim. [Mournful orchestral music.]
At the moment that I arrived, Jim had just breathed his last breath like a few seconds before. And Nelson Johnson was with him. And Nelson said to me,
"He's gone." Phoebe Judge: The whole thing lasted 88 seconds. Thirty-nine shots were fired, almost all
of them from KKK guns. Five demonstrators were killed and nine were wounded. When
it was all over, the police arrived. Nelson Johnson: The police were supposed to be there. They were not. They said they couldn't find the site. And it was the very
site they wrote the permit for. Phoebe Judge: Nelson Johnson began screaming. He says he called the mayor a dog and accused the police of working with the KKK.
Nelson Johnson: Police came over and said, "Stop." And I said, "I'm not going to stop. I know what y'all did." Phoebe Judge: He was arrested for inciting a riot.
The police took him to the hospital to have his arms sewn up and then took him to jail.
When he was released from jail the next morning, he was swarmed by reporters. The
incident was a national news story. Nelson Johnson: I was confronted, as I was walking out of jail, by what looked like about 15 news reporters and cameras in my face.
I was most concerned about where my two children were. I had no idea where they were. And I learned
shortly that my brother, from Winston-Salem, had come over and taken them with him back
to Winston-Salem, and I'm eternally grateful for that. But it was — I was still coming to
grips with the magnitude of what had happened. Phoebe Judge: Most of the white supremacists fled
the crime scene without being caught. But one van did get stopped by police, and the driver
of the van started talking, naming names. One man said he'd fired in self-defense. Another
said he was protecting the American way. [Mournful orchestral music continues.]
The shooting started out as national news and Jimmy Carter assigned 20 FBI agents to
investigate. But then, just a few hours later — Announcer: From ABC in New York, this is World
News Tonight, Sunday... Phoebe Judge: The event was overshadowed by the Iran hostage crisis.
Sam Donaldson: Good evening. The U.S. embassy in Tehran has been invaded and occupied by Iranian
students. The Americans inside have been taken prisoner and, according to a student spokesman,
will be held as hostages until the deposed shah is returned from the United States, where he is
receiving medical treatment... [Fades out.] Phoebe Judge: In 1980, North Carolina brought murder charges against six members of the KKK and American Nazi Party.
More than 2,000 people were called to jury selection and asked questions like, "Can you judge a Klan member objectively?" And, "Is it less of a crime to kill a communist?"
After five weeks, 12 jurors and four alternates were finally chosen. All were white.
The defense argued that the Klansmen had acted in self-defense. The verdict came back: not guilty.
A second federal criminal civil rights trial happened in 1984. Again, the jury was all white.
This time, a carpenter named Eddie Dawson testified that he'd acted as a liaison
between the KKK and the Greensboro Police. He said under oath that he'd warned police
that as many as 200 KKK and American Nazi Party members were planning to show up at the CWP rally,
and that he'd been paid by the police for this information. He was riding in the first car of the
KKK caravan and testified that he'd expected the police to be there when they arrived, and couldn't
understand why they weren't. Again, the verdict came back: not guilty. One of the Klan leaders,
Imperial Wizard Virgil Lee Griffin, gloated to reporters, "No matter what the communists say,
the KKK is here to stay." Eric Ginsburg: My name's Eric Ginsburg. I'm the associate editor of Triad
City Beat newspaper here in Greensboro. Phoebe Judge: And where are we right now?
Eric Ginsburg: We're at the entrance to Maplewood Cemetery, which is where the headstone for the five people who were killed in the Greensboro massacre is. Only
four of them are actually buried here. There are two on either side of the headstone.
Phoebe Judge: Will you just read what it says here? Eric Ginsburg: So the title
to the back of the headstone is, "Long live the Communist Workers' Party 5. November 3,
1979, the criminal monopoly capitalist class with government agents, Klan, and Nazis, murdered Jim
Waller, César Cauce, Mike Nathan, Bill Sampson, and Sandi Smith. Heroically defending the people,
the 5 charged gunfire with bare fists and sticks. We vow this assassination will be the costliest
mistake the capitalists ever made and the turning point of class struggle in the U.S." And then in
large letters across the bottom, it says, "Fight for revolutionary socialism and workers rule."
Phoebe Judge: That's big. Eric Ginsburg: Yeah. I mean, there's so many things that stand out to me about this. The line about "we will make this the costliest
mistake that the capitalists ever made." Phoebe Judge: And, also, in some way, the accusation: government agents. Eric Ginsburg: Yeah, absolutely. Right
from the very beginning, this headstone says that the government and Klan and Nazis were working
together, which is something people started saying, I think, even on the scene that day.
Phoebe Judge: Do you believe that? Eric Ginsburg: I do find it very difficult to understand why, if the tensions between these groups had been building for a long
period of time, how the absence of police presence could be anything but intentional.
The popular narrative around here among many folks is that these are two outside warring groups that
locals played no role in this incident. And I certainly don't accept that. And I'm much
more inclined to agree with the statements made in the Truth and Reconciliation Report itself,
where it talks about the culpability of local police and officials. Phoebe Judge: In 2005, a group of private citizens created the Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation
Commission, modeled off the one that had taken place in South Africa after the end of apartheid.
Basically, everyone told the story as best they remembered it and try to explain their actions.
Here's the voice of Klansman Virgil Lee Griffin. Virgil Lee Griffin: The reason I came to Greensboro, they put the poster out:
"Death to the Klan." Said we was hiding under rocks. We was scum. I'm not scum. I'm not as good
as any man walking on this earth. Phoebe Judge: After holding hearings for two years, the commission issued a
500-page report articulating their findings. Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commissioner:
The primary contributor to the loss of life was the absence of police, which endangered the
welfare of all involved, including residents of Morningside Homes, where the shootings took place.
Nearly all commissioners believe that the police absence was the result of some
intentionality on the part of at least some officers in the Greensboro Police Department.
We found that the events of November 3rd, 1979, are woven through with issues of race and class.
Phoebe Judge: The commission placed what they called, "the heaviest burden of responsibility," on the Klan and Nazis. Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commissioner:
Who, after an initial stick fight with demonstrators, returned to their cars, retrieved weapons, and fired at mostly unarmed demonstrators, when the caravan's path of exit
was cleared and they could have fled. We find that the Communist Workers Party members did
not seek or deserve to be killed. They did, however, underestimate the danger of taunting the Klan with provocative language, and for beating on caravan cars with sticks.
[Melancholy piano music.] Phoebe Judge: How do you feel about the suggestion that the CWP was not without responsibility for
the violence that occurred? Signe Waller-Foxworth: OK. I think we are all responsible for what we do and what we say, you know?
Phoebe Judge: Signe Waller. Signe Waller-Foxworth: We are responsible for a certain naivete that we had, particularly some of us more than others, about not realizing
the depths of negativity and crime of the Klan. Particularly, if we're calling the Klan names,
which we did, and not that they didn't deserve it. Our slogan, for example, "Death to the Klan."
When people say "death to the Klan" or "death to something," they don't mean "I have a plan
to go out and assassinate somebody," they mean "down with," "à bas," as they say in French. It
means you don't like what the Klan stands for. That's what it means. It means death to racism.
In that sense, not being aware, not being more circumspect, that's how I kind of summed
it up. Circumspect, you're looking around, you understand that people who have played
a violent role in history can play it again, will play it again, against you, you know?
Nelson Johnson: I have some regrets, and I would have done some things differently.
I would have went forward with a march against the Klan. I would not have used some of the language.
And perhaps I would have broadened the coalition to include more of the clergy that I now work with
every day. So, there are some regrets, it's not a regret that we stood up and we gave voice
to it. It's some of the tactical things that may have helped there to be less damage done to us and to our community. Phoebe Judge: Today, Nelson Johnson is a
pastor and the executive director of the Beloved Community Center in Greensboro.
Signe Waller-Foxworth is also still an activist in Greensboro and the author of a book called
Love and Revolution: A Political Memoir. Signe Waller-Foxworth: We were organizers,
we were activists. I mean, we made some mistakes, and we're responsible for our speech.
And if we acknowledge that responsibility of not fully understanding that we unleashed this
historical violent monster, then that is not tantamount to, "You are to blame for your comrades being murdered, your husband, your friends being murdered."
[Plunking music.] Phoebe Judge: This spring, a Southern Poverty Law Center report found that new
Klan groups are on the rise and that old, dormant chapters are reappearing. There are currently eight active KKK groups in North Carolina.
[Guitar strums.] Criminal is produced by Lauren Spohrer and me. Audio mix by Rob Byers. Special thanks to Julie Shapiro, Dennis Funk,
Alice Wilder and Russ Henry. Julienne Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com.
Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member
of Radiotopia from PRX, a collective of the best podcasts around. And we're very happy to announce
a new member to our group, Millennial, hosted and produced by Megan Tan. In it, Megan documents her
life, post-graduation, in serialized form. Megan Tan: If you don't know what I mean
when I say "Millennial," here's an idea. Speaker 1: A third of young Americans between
the ages of 18 and 34 years old have been forced to move back in with their parents.
Speaker 2: 40% of the unemployed, that's about 4.6 million people, are Millennials.
Megan Tan: And I'm one of those 4.6 million people who doesn't have a job. I also have less than a
thousand dollars in my bank account. I don't have health insurance because I can't afford
health insurance. I don't have a credit card because I'm afraid of credit cards.
And my ultimate goal is this: to get paid to do something that I love. But it's hard to imagine
that that's attainable when you're in your 20s. Phoebe Judge: Go listen. Radiotopia from PRX is supported by the Knight Foundation and MailChimp,
celebrating creativity, chaos, and teamwork. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
Jingle: Radiotopia. From PRX.

In 1979, a group of labor organizers protested outside a Ku Klux Klan screening of the 1915 white supremacist film, The Birth of a Nation. Nelson Johnson and Signe Waller-Foxworth remember shouting at armed Klansmen and burning a confederate flag, until eventually police forced the KKK inside and the standoff ended without violence. The labor organizers felt they’d won a small victory, and planned a much bigger anti-Klan demonstration in Greensboro, North Carolina. They advertised with the slogan: “Death to the Klan” and set the date for November 3rd, 1979.

As protestors assembled, a caravan of nine cars appeared, and a man in a pick-up truck yelled: “You asked for the Klan! Now you’ve got them!” Thirty-nine shots were fired in eighty-eight seconds, and five protestors were killed. The city of Greensboro is still grappling with the complicated legacy of that day.

The Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s full report is available online.http://www.greensborotrc.org/

Today, Reverend Nelson Johnson is a pastor with Faith Community Church and serves as the Executive Director for the Beloved Community Center of Greensboro, which advocates for social and economic justice. http://www.belovedcommunitycenter.org/

Signe Waller-Foxworth is the author of Love and Revolution: A Political Memoir. http://www.indiebound.org/book/9780742513655

Eric Ginsburg is the associate editor at the Triad City Beat. http://triad-city-beat.com/

For this story, we also interviewed Elizabeth Wheaton, author of Codename Greenkill. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Codename-Greenkill-1979-Greensboro-Killings/dp/0820309354

Music in this episode: “Cirrus” by Blue Dot Sessions “At The End Everyone Dies” by Kai Engel “Emergency B-Side” by MADS “Hands and Cheeks” by MADS “Ballast” by Blue Dot Sessions “Floret” by Kai Engel “Fig Tree” by Blue Dot Sessions

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 43 originally published 5/20/2016 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-43-39-shots-in-greensboro-5-19-2016

Brief Summary

The episode recounts the Greensboro Massacre, detailing the violent clash between anti-Klan protesters and the KKK in 1979.

Key points

Nelson Johnson's First Encounter with the Klan. In the mid-1960s, Nelson Johnson faced the Klan while dining with a diverse group.
Tense Confrontation in China Grove. Protesters faced off against the Klan, resulting in a tense standoff.
The Greensboro Massacre. A violent clash between Klan members and protesters left five dead and nine wounded.
Police Absence and Aftermath. The police's failure to appear during the violence raised questions about their intentions.
The Verdict: Not Guilty. All-white juries acquitted Klan members involved in the shooting, raising concerns about justice.
Nelson Johnson's Regrets. Nelson Johnson reflects on his past decisions and regrets regarding activism against the Klan.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The fact that that did not erupt in violence was something people found amazing.

Signe Waller-Foxworth on the tension of the protest.

4:25WatchNov 16, 2022

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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